[CGUYS] Primer on RAID
Hi all, I will be taking delivery of a new Intel i7-920 Win 7 PC shorty and it will come with 12 G of DDRR3 RAM and a 1TB HD to which I intend to add a 2nd 1TB drive that I just bought for a PC that is no longer going to be used. I have never used any RAID or similar configuration and am wondering what are the pros and cons. This is a home machine and in the past when I had multiple disks I always backed up my critical data and media etc from my main drive manually to one of the other physical disks, on the premise that, unless there was a fire and the whole computer melted, the odds of 2 physical drives failing at the same time are infinitesimally small. But with 2 really large drives, and a lot of RAM and a very fast machine coming, I am wondering if I should be using a RAID configuration, and if so, what advantages or disadvantages does that bring. Advice is welcome. Michael * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Primer on RAID
On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:33 PM, Michael Wosnick wrote: I will be taking delivery of a new Intel i7-920 Win 7 PC shorty and it will come with 12 G of DDRR3 RAM and a 1TB HD to which I intend to add a 2nd 1TB drive that I just bought for a PC that is no longer going to be used. I have never used any RAID or similar configuration and am wondering what are the pros and cons. Need to know your motivation. Are you running an NLE on this gear or just hacking hardware for entertainment or what? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Primer on RAID
RAID is important on high-access servers like retail websites or application servers. I cannot conceive of a reason you would want RAID otherwise. But then, my conceiver has been in the shop for a while... Ellen H. - Original Message - From: Michael Wosnick mwosn...@rogers.com To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM Subject: [CGUYS] Primer on RAID Hi all, I will be taking delivery of a new Intel i7-920 Win 7 PC shorty and it will come with 12 G of DDRR3 RAM and a 1TB HD to which I intend to add a 2nd 1TB drive that I just bought for a PC that is no longer going to be used. I have never used any RAID or similar configuration and am wondering what are the pros and cons. This is a home machine and in the past when I had multiple disks I always backed up my critical data and media etc from my main drive manually to one of the other physical disks, on the premise that, unless there was a fire and the whole computer melted, the odds of 2 physical drives failing at the same time are infinitesimally small. But with 2 really large drives, and a lot of RAM and a very fast machine coming, I am wondering if I should be using a RAID configuration, and if so, what advantages or disadvantages does that bring. Advice is welcome. Michael * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Primer on RAID
Fair point. It is a bit of an all-purpose, really. Multiple home users, main hub of a home network, and for me, a lot of Office apps, multimedia and movies, and multitasking. From: tjpa t...@tjpa.com On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:33 PM, Michael Wosnick wrote: I will be taking delivery of a new Intel i7-920 Win 7 PC shorty and it will come with 12 G of DDRR3 RAM and a 1TB HD to which I intend to add a 2nd 1TB drive that I just bought for a PC that is no longer going to be used. I have never used any RAID or similar configuration and am wondering what are the pros and cons. Need to know your motivation. Are you running an NLE on this gear or just hacking hardware for entertainment or what? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Primer on RAID
Then no, under no circumstances should you consider a RAID. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Michael Wosnick mwosn...@rogers.com wrote: Fair point. It is a bit of an all-purpose, really. Multiple home users, main hub of a home network, and for me, a lot of Office apps, multimedia and movies, and multitasking. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
Stick and move, Tom...you post only part of my msg avoiding the meat. So, here is one more try to get an answer from you. I think you read only part of what is posted so it does not disturb your faith. RAID mirrors only protect against one type of failure (drive failure). This is the least likely type of failure and as drives' MTBF march upwards this type of failure becomes less and less likely. Meanwhile, RAID does nothing for the most likely types of data-loss errors: soft errors in the volume organization and data base structure. RAID gives a false sense of security and is often used by IT managers to avoid the real work of keeping the valuables secure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
And still no answer...shocking. On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stick and move, Tom...you post only part of my msg avoiding the meat. So, here is one more try to get an answer from you. I think you read only part of what is posted so it does not disturb your faith. RAID mirrors only protect against one type of failure (drive failure). This is the least likely type of failure and as drives' MTBF march upwards this type of failure becomes less and less likely. Meanwhile, RAID does nothing for the most likely types of data-loss errors: soft errors in the volume organization and data base structure. RAID gives a false sense of security and is often used by IT managers to avoid the real work of keeping the valuables secure. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
Actually he never offered any alternatives to RAID where RAID is needed. Isn't that circular logic? Want to offer me some alternatives to a Mac where a Mac is required? If you list all the positives for RAID and don't acknowledge any of the negatives, that is not good decisionmaking. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
Stick and move, Tom...you post only part of my msg avoiding the meat. So, here is one more try to get an answer from you. Actually he never offered any alternatives to RAID where RAID is needed. I gave an example. *25 or 30 users accessing a database, minimum downtime, maximum data protection. What do you do in this situation except RAID?* We just had a drive go out in this situation, and if it had not been in a RAID, they'd have been down. Instead, the next day we went in, popped in a new drive and they never even knew. If there are simpler ways to go, I'd definitely like to know. * * That's the whole quote from my msg, not the truncated part you posted as to avoid my question. I've underlined the detailed part I was hoping you'd answer since several times recently and in the past you've said there are better alternatives to RAID. I also never said there aren't negatives to RAID. Again that's you clouding and avoiding. Mike On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually he never offered any alternatives to RAID where RAID is needed. Isn't that circular logic? Want to offer me some alternatives to a Mac where a Mac is required? If you list all the positives for RAID and don't acknowledge any of the negatives, that is not good decisionmaking. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] is it RAID?
It is a specific technology, but not a specific hardware technology. RAID is a technology that uses multiple hard drives for performance, data management or reliability. You don't need a RAID card to make RAID. And it seems to me in google's case instead of using multiple hard drives in one server/box, they are using a server/box as if it were a drive and using multiple boxes to denote the (for lack of a better word) RAID. Mirroring whole machines rather then just HD's. What would you call this? It seems to me it's still multiple hard drives being used for performance, data management and reliability. RAID on steroids...if not in fact, but at least in practical terminology. Mike On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 7:19 AM, John DeCarlo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 5:14 PM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This part..maybe your terminology is confused..you say they get more realiability with 'redundant disk arrays then with RAID'. Just a point of order, RAID *is* redundant array of independant disks. But RAID is a specific technology. Having multiple, redundant drives does not require using RAID. My understanding is that Google doesn't use RAID technology for anything but that one project (Adwords). While for their search indices and Gmail and the like they simply store multiple copies of the data. Then if one fails, the other copies are still there. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
It is a specific technology, but not a specific hardware technology. RAID is a technology that uses multiple hard drives for performance, data management or reliability. The above is correct as long as you write it in the past tense. The error is not realizing that all of these benefits can be more easily obtained using different, newer methods. Time marches on! seems to me in google's case instead of using multiple hard drives in one server/box, they are using a server/box as if it were a drive and using multiple boxes to denote the (for lack of a better word) RAID. Mirroring whole machines rather then just HD's. Is the use of multiple servers just a different way to implement RAID? Only if you stretch the definition of RAID to the extreme and ignore what the D stands for. It also moves completely out of the context of this discussion: what kind of drive is best for storing archives. I woule never use a RAID for that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
You keep saying this, but don't give examples of what better methods there are. Mike On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is a specific technology, but not a specific hardware technology. RAID is a technology that uses multiple hard drives for performance, data management or reliability. The above is correct as long as you write it in the past tense. The error is not realizing that all of these benefits can be more easily obtained using different, newer methods. Time marches on! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
-Original Message- You keep saying this, but don't give examples of what better methods there are. Why educate when you can obfuscate? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
You keep saying this, but don't give examples of what better methods there are. There have been many examples proffered. I think you just don't want to acknowledge them. I won't repeat Jeff's list, which is quite complete and very useful for us all. It includes some technologies that are waxing and some that are waning. I think RAID has gone dark. Some of us have not gotten there yet. I do apperciate Jeff's efforts to write it all down. RAID vs. RAIS is an interesting concept, that I won't agree with. All this is what makes this list special. I think we should scale this back to the parameters of the original question: given a limited budget and the need to protect about 1TB, which of these technologies make sense? I woule go for DVDs *and* an external hard drive, but no RAID. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
What would you do with the external HD? Use it with a backup program or replication program...? db Tom Piwowar wrote: You keep saying this, but don't give examples of what better methods there are. There have been many examples proffered. I think you just don't want to acknowledge them. I won't repeat Jeff's list, which is quite complete and very useful for us all. It includes some technologies that are waxing and some that are waning. I think RAID has gone dark. Some of us have not gotten there yet. I do apperciate Jeff's efforts to write it all down. RAID vs. RAIS is an interesting concept, that I won't agree with. All this is what makes this list special. I think we should scale this back to the parameters of the original question: given a limited budget and the need to protect about 1TB, which of these technologies make sense? I woule go for DVDs *and* an external hard drive, but no RAID. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] is it RAID?
I think we should scale this back to the parameters of the original question: given a limited budget and the need to protect about 1TB, which of these technologies make sense? I woule go for DVDs *and* an external hard drive, but no RAID. RAID vs. single drive boils down to the following formula: RAID: Multiple points of failure, with fault-tolerance for drive components. How much depends on the array. Single drive: 2 points of failure: the drive controller and the drive. No fault-tolerance. Not to beat a dead horse, but I've had too numerous to remember drive failures, one RAID controller failure and multiple non-RAID motherboard failures, which effectively kills the drive controller, since nearly all are integrated. RAID is a no-brainer for me; my business depends upon the low cost high-availability it gives me. Redundant fail-over servers would be very, very nice, but it breaks the bank. RAID will be around for a very long time to come. Reports of its death are greatly exaggerated. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
