Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
Many find the new UI changes hard to learn and unnecessary. Sue wasn't talking about the UI. She was talking about the need to buy new software whenever MS changes its mind, and that's what I was responding to. There could have been changes made that don't stop quite as many programs from working. Or compatibility modes that trick the old software into thinking it is doing something unsafe, but it really isn't. MS did both of these. You can run any program in compatibility mode for WinXP, Server 2003, Win2K, WinNT4, Win98/ME, or Win95. And behind the scenes Vista does stuff to help, like quietly storing data that software tries to put in Program Files somewhere else. But compatibility can only go so far, and a small number of particularly egregious programs, most of which are doing things that MS said not to do for years, just won't work. Again, it depends. Largely, it seems that MS felt as you do - who cares how many old programs are broken. I didn't say anything like that. In fact, I said that MS had bent over backwards to maintain as much compatibility as they could while still making the changes that were needed to improve security. But not every software vendor has the resources to make the kinds of changes that MS wants for Vista. You're assuming that they are big changes, but they are not. I've been through this (I'm a professional developer), and the modifications that a vendor might HAVE to make are just not that big of a deal. It's not like the software needs to be rewritten. If a program needs sweeping changes to run under Vista, then it is a bad program and I, for one, would not want to use it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
The only Eudora being released is a NEW one put out by the folks at Thunderbird, that is compatible with Vista. There is another. Google on Odysseus email. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
EVERY program? A 2 y/o program is not exactly ancient. Where are the warnings: before you buy, please note ? And what choice does one have? What if we don't like OE (or Vista mail) for mail or IE for browsing? Compare to Apple. The two times they changed processors -- a big enough change that it would not run old software -- Apple included a very high-quality emulator. It was so good that people with little computer know-how didn't even notice that there had been a massive change. Not only does MS think they own our computers, it looks like they also think they own us. We must do whatever the master commands. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
Don't want vista? Don't buy it. XP is still around, some vendors are still selling it installed. This is a fake argument. On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not only does MS think they own our computers, it looks like they also think they own us. We must do whatever the master commands. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
Without knowing what exactly this is, who knows why? But, the permission model on Vista is different from XP. Microsoft announced this loudly and often to the development community during the beta testing period. Why didn't the mfr of the lock box update their software? Apple has also made a big chnage from a Unix-like permission model to ACLs. They introduced ACL in the last upgrade, X.4, so developers would see it, but Apple did not do anything to require its use. In OS X.5 ACLs are more prominent, but still not required. The old Unix-like stuff works fine. I expect that in X.6 the OS will be slanted to using ACLs. That is how to do it gracefully. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
At 02:01 PM 09/08/2008 -0400, Tom Piwowar wrote The only Eudora being released is a NEW one put out by the folks at Thunderbird, that is compatible with Vista. There is another. Google on Odysseus email. Looks like that's for Macs? Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
At 03:25 PM 09/08/2008 -0400, Tom Piwowar wrote EVERY program? A 2 y/o program is not exactly ancient. Where are the warnings: before you buy, please note ? And what choice does one have? What if we don't like OE (or Vista mail) for mail or IE for browsing? Compare to Apple. The two times they changed processors -- a big enough change that it would not run old software -- Apple included a very high-quality emulator. It was so good that people with little computer know-how didn't even notice that there had been a massive change. Not only does MS think they own our computers, it looks like they also think they own us. We must do whatever the master commands. A friend asked a couple of weeks ago about buying a new computer. Vista or Mac, she asked. My only advice was that there was going to be a learning curve with either (she was a Windows user). She got Vista. Price was the deciding factor. She paid $549 for the laptop she bought. She did compare capacity with Mac, and it would have been nearly $1000. Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
At 12:43 PM 09/08/2008 -0700, mike wrote Don't want vista? Don't buy it. XP is still around, some vendors are still selling it installed. This is a fake argument. No it's not. Only a few vendors will still install XP, and those mostly have to be ordered. If you want the price that's in the Sunday fliers, you get Vista. Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
Yes...it is. I didn't say you could get it on the cheapest laptop at Best Buy. I just said it was available. You deny it's available and then in the next sentence admit it is. Mike On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Sue Cubic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 12:43 PM 09/08/2008 -0700, mike wrote Don't want vista? Don't buy it. XP is still around, some vendors are still selling it installed. This is a fake argument. No it's not. Only a few vendors will still install XP, and those mostly have to be ordered. If you want the price that's in the Sunday fliers, you get Vista. Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
At 02:20 PM 09/08/2008 -0700, mike wrote Yes...it is. I didn't say you could get it on the cheapest laptop at Best Buy. I just said it was available. You deny it's available and then in the next sentence admit it is. I'm done here. If all you want is to play semantics, that's enough for me. I'm starting to agree with Tom. If I have to buy new software every time MS decides it's time for a change, I might as well tackle the learning curve from Mac. If most businesses are refusing to use Vista, it's not a very good recommend for those of us out here who just want a computer that works. Right now I'm tearing my hair out trying to understand how to teach newbies to use a computer. Most of them are seniors, who are not of a mind to replace equipment and software all the time. Nor can I replace mine all the time just to be able to teach them. I hope you remember all this when you're older and on a fixed income. Perhaps we're all expected to remain up on the cutting edge or simply give up on life when we retire? Sue * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
I'm starting to agree with Tom. If I have to buy new software every time MS decides it's time for a change, I might as well tackle the learning curve from Mac. If most businesses are refusing to use Vista, it's not a very good recommend for those of us out here who just want a computer that works. You don't. Most of the software that I use on Vista, I also use on XP. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head that doesn't work on both. But, if you deal with vendors that don't try all that hard, you can't blame the OS for their lack of effort with their product. You also can't blame the OS for software developers who *still* don't code for the Windows NT permission model that came out in 1996 and still insist that their app be run with admin permissions. I have an ID card system running on an old Windows 2000 system. The person using it is complaining about its slowness on a 9 year old computer. Can't say I blame him. I want to upgrade it to XP and a newer PC, but the card printer the system uses doesn't have drivers certified by the vendor to work with XP. They won't test it even though the printer came out at the same time as XP did. Basically, I'm on my own and SOL if it doesn't work. I'm recommending that we scrap the system and go with a better vendor, one that gives a crap about its customers. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
Right now I'm tearing my hair out trying to understand how to teach newbies to use a computer. Most of them are seniors, who are not of a mind to replace equipment and software all the time. Nor can I replace mine all the time just to be able to teach them. If the new system were clearly superior I think you might be more enthusiastic about change. One of my gripes with Vista, Office 2008, and OS X is that so many of the changes were not improvements, just cosmetic changes, some changes even took us backwards or eliminted ueful features. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
There is another. Google on Odysseus email. Looks like that's for Macs? Well of course. However they do promise to get around to a Windows version eventually (I can't imagine why). * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
I'm starting to agree with Tom. If I have to buy new software every time MS decides it's time for a change That's a bit extreme, Sue. MS has always bent over backwards for compatibility. As I've mentioned here before, I still use DOS programs that were written in the early 80s for a CPU that no longer exists. They work fine. I run a LOT of software, and all I had to do was get free updates for a couple of programs and find one free replacement for software from a vendor who refused to update. What new software did you have to buy? Questions to ponder: 1. Did MS make changes in Vista just to annoy customers, or were there good reasons? 2. If MS is (rightly) criticized for Windows security, and it makes change to improve security, and because of that a small number of programs that insist on running in an insecure way no longer work, is that a good reason to criticize MS, or would the criticism be better leveled at the software vendors? 3. If a software vendor won't provide updates to work with improved Vista security, is that MS's fault, or is it the vendor's? Does the vendor care about its customers, or is it just trying to sell new stuff? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Chris Dunford [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Questions to ponder: 1. Did MS make changes in Vista just to annoy customers, or were there good reasons? Some parts had good reasons. Others were simply to have something new, to justify the people who count the number of new features (instead of actually evaluating the new features to see if they are worthwhile). Many find the new UI changes hard to learn and unnecessary. 2. If MS is (rightly) criticized for Windows security, and it makes change to improve security, and because of that a small number of programs that insist on running in an insecure way no longer work, is that a good reason to criticize MS, or would the criticism be better leveled at the software vendors? It depends. There could have been changes made that don't stop quite as many programs from working. Or compatibility modes that trick the old software into thinking it is doing something unsafe, but it really isn't. 3. If a software vendor won't provide updates to work with improved Vista security, is that MS's fault, or is it the vendor's? Does the vendor care about its customers, or is it just trying to sell new stuff? Again, it depends. Largely, it seems that MS felt as you do - who cares how many old programs are broken, they can fix their software to make it better. But not every software vendor has the resources to make the kinds of changes that MS wants for Vista. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] miserable was: Re: [CGUYS] Chrome Reflects A Deskto
Why is it miserable? Saying it doesn't make it so. Is acting dumb an acceptable way to win an argument? I think not. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
