Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
On Sep 22, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Tom there are just some points you never seem to get. I just read an article http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/18557/ that is an interesting read on the subject of Macs and small business. Pat * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
this article is the biggest joke i have ever seen as an argument to put micks in to a biz app environment. 1. get the files transfered for free woopee 2.lepard is intuitive my wife has run OS's since before os existed(cpm), through all the xerox systems(alto,star,), windoz systems, . she has lepard now. she sez it's tough. when i try to run it, i can barely turn on the machine. 3.no viruses agreed. nobody cares, and most macs are not on a corporate network where there may be something to screw up or steal. 4.hundreds of biz apps. yeah, like hallmark cards, address books, ported over ms apps etc. what about a good intregrated data base program that will handle 2-3000 customers and 10-20,000skews(that is not a real big company)? bar codes, direct mail, payroll,pos, contact manager. and at reasonable price. i had all of those(no pos, contact mgr) in 1990 when mac was trying to get a xerox unit to call a big mac. even getting a couple of fonts was pure hell, and very expensive. 5. apple support does apple support 3rd party software? 6* networking applenet???remember that they network well now. they use the industry standard networking. no more propriatry applesomethings. At 03:08 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote: On Sep 22, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Tom there are just some points you never seem to get. I just read an article http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/18557/ that is an interesting read on the subject of Macs and small business. Pat * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
On Sep 23, 2008, at 4:33 PM, gerald wrote: this article is the biggest joke i have ever seen as an argument to put micks in to a biz app environment. 1. get the files transfered for free woopee This can be a big deal for someone switching. At the end of the exercise, their address book, claendar, and even mail have all been transferred. Their music and photos are in place. They are ready to begin working 2.lepard is intuitive my wife has run OS's since before os existed(cpm), through all the xerox systems(alto,star,), windoz systems, . she has lepard now. she sez it's tough. when i try to run it, i can barely turn on the machine. It is amazing to me that I see so many people who have easily made the switch, and within a week or so, they are very comfortable using their new Macs. The approach I suggest is not In Windows I did this. Now X$$XXX*^%* %^*, where is it on this X*(Y^%%$*OI Mac? The approach that works is I want to do XX, let me find the way to do it. 3.no viruses agreed. nobody cares, and most macs are not on a corporate network where there may be something to screw up or steal. It is amazing how many Macs are moving on to corporate networks each day. If the IT staff has an open mind, things can go very successfully 4.hundreds of biz apps. yeah, like hallmark cards, address books, ported over ms apps etc. what about a good intregrated data base program that will handle 2-3000 customers and 10-20,000skews(that is not a real big company)? bar codes, direct mail, payroll,pos, contact manager. and at reasonable price. i had all of those(no pos, contact mgr) in 1990 when mac was trying to get a xerox unit to call a big mac. even getting a couple of fonts was pure hell, and very expensive. No Hallmark cards, but FileMaker Pro (which is cross-platform and works with SQL etc.) is a darn good database. Much of what you are complaining about was fixed almost 10 years ago. 5. apple support does apple support 3rd party software? No, but there are many fine support personnel, trained and certified by Apple who can give a hand 6* networking applenet???remember that they network well now. they use the industry standard networking. no more propriatry applesomethings. This, once again is a problem solved long ago. You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you want, but your dislike does not make your opinions fact. The Macintosh OS is robust, stable and easy to support. But all of that is lost on someone who does not want to look at the other side of the street. Pat * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
I just read an article http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/18557/ that is an interesting read on the subject of Macs and small business. 1. Free, Fast File Transfer From Apple I agree, this is a good and useful service. Dell includes this as well, but of course, they don't have stores. 2. Mac OS X Leopard-More Intuitive, Crashes Less, Runs Faster More intuitive and runs faster and are very subjective. Going from Windows to Mac is very jarring and there is a learning curve. Crashes less? YMMV. 3. Unlike PCs, Macs Aren't Plagued By Viruses and Spyware Downloads This is true, for now. Don't run as the admin on Windows and demonstrate a nominal amount of common sense and you won't have this problem on Windows. 4. Hundreds of Business Applications to Choose From This is a selling point? Hundreds? 5. Apple Support-Accessible, Knowledgeable and, Actually, Helpful This is likely true, but as I pointed out previously, their on-site enterprise support sucks big time. In the end, use what tool works for you. If that's a Mac, go nuts. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
At 04:59 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote: On Sep 23, 2008, at 4:33 PM, gerald wrote: this article is the biggest joke i have ever seen as an argument to put micks in to a biz app environment. 1. get the files transfered for free woopee This can be a big deal for someone switching. At the end of the exercise, their address book, claendar, and even mail have all been transferred. Their music and photos are in place. They are ready to begin working what do muzak and photos have to do with a real company? 2.lepard is intuitive my wife has run OS's since before os existed(cpm), through all the xerox systems(alto,star,), windoz systems, . she has lepard now. she sez it's tough. when i try to run it, i can barely turn on the machine. It is amazing to me that I see so many people who have easily made the switch, and within a week or so, they are very comfortable using their new Macs. The approach I suggest is not In Windows I did this. Now X$$XXX*^%* %^*, where is it on this X*(Y^%%$*OI Mac? The approach that works is I want to do XX, let me find the way to do it. i told you my wife was a professional. ran all systems. including early mac. leapord is only lovely to the beholder. 3.no viruses agreed. nobody cares, and most macs are not on a corporate network where there may be something to screw up or steal. It is amazing how many Macs are moving on to corporate networks each day. If the IT staff has an open mind, things can go very successfully absolutely amazing. most are kids with laptops and iphones 4.hundreds of biz apps. yeah, like hallmark cards, address books, ported over ms apps etc. what about a good intregrated data base program that will handle 2-3000 customers and 10-20,000skews(that is not a real big company)? bar codes, direct mail, payroll,pos, contact manager. and at reasonable price. i had all of those(no pos, contact mgr) in 1990 when mac was trying to get a xerox unit to call a big mac. even getting a couple of fonts was pure hell, and very expensive. No Hallmark cards, but FileMaker Pro (which is cross-platform and works with SQL etc.) is a darn good database. Much of what you are complaining about was fixed almost 10 years ago. name a real business program for each and the price. i wanted to convert from one business program to another the cost was to be around $250,000 buy the program and transfer the data.. i do not know what is filemaker pro, can i input orders and get out invoices with an office person and not have to write the program first, just load it? what about my payroll? what about bar coding? what about , what about. these machines are very pretty toys. they do now do the biz apps of ms office, but that is not what a small business does. i needed to enter 100 orders a day, ship and invoice. all those dirty things a business does. a good data base is a base upon which to write such a program. what's the program? 5. apple support does apple support 3rd party software? No, but there are many fine support personnel, trained and certified by Apple who can give a hand i certified all my employees also. most were toilet trained. 6* networking applenet???remember that they network well now. they use the industry standard networking. no more propriatry applesomethings. This, once again is a problem solved long ago. i said that. long ago. 10 years after the rest of the world fixed it, and applets were still doing graphics and talking about their great little machine. You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you want, but your dislike does not make your opinions fact. The Macintosh OS is robust, stable and easy to support. But all of that is lost on someone who does not want to look at the other side of the street. i had a business and a bottom line. they did not have the SOFTWARE for a business. a company does not throw away legacy software to do mac because it is suddenly better, maybe. Pat * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
Well thank you for proving my point, though I don't appreciate the crudity and am not quoting that part of your post. When you have to resort to crudity it is a good sign that your case is not a good one. You are only trying to squelch discussion. An organization that has to depend on second-hand donations and vendor give aways is clearly not operating in a free market. Just like someone sleeping on a park bench on a cold Winter night is not exercising a free market preference for cold and hard beds. So back to my original statement. In a distorted, non-free market popularity is not a good surrogate for perceived quality. You don't get to attribute quality using a 10,000,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong type of argument. I guess it is time to insert a little economy into the discussion of why people buy PC's with windows. 1. Most Non-Profits, like the one that I volunteer for seem to perpetually have a lack of funds to purchase PC's. Lots of what they get are second hand donations which makes the price correct. 2. Many small business's of 3-10 persons like law, medical and accounting offices purchase their PC's base on bang for the buck. which means price. I bought a client 4 Dell's from MicroCenter for $399 each, they came with XP Pro, 1gig Ram and 80 gig hard disks. And a keyboard and mouse included. No monitors but cheap LCD's abound. 3. Non-Profits can purchase software and hardware thru TechSoup, which MS sells their XP pro for around $8 a copy. And MS Office pro for about the same. Of course the Non-Profit that I volunteer for has around 120 workstations and 8 windows 2003 servers. No Apple products were available for them to purchase at a cheap price like Intel PC's and MS products. They did get a really good price break from Dell on their servers and switch's. (I don't think that the BOD would approve purchasing MAC's when they can get Windows PC's for a small amount of outlay.) Techsoup is the primary place for validated non-profit's to acquire hardware and software at real cheap prices. No Apple products seem to be visible. I understand that Apple does provide software/hardware in small amounts to some non-profits that jump thru the many-many hoops to get it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
You don't get to attribute quality using a 10,000,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong type of argument. I couldn't agree more, and yet that is exactly what you do, repeatedly. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
The problem is you can't be happy! You just CAN'T be! It's not possible! You are in denial..that's it..denial. On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use Dell's all day long and am supremely happy with them. So what is the big deal? Why can't we just get along. (I know tired phrase) Why is it that everyone has to keep trying to show who has the bigger whatever or the better whatever. Sounds like the old line of whose dad is the bigger one or best. Stewart At 12:20 PM 9/22/2008, you wrote: Apple uses their software to sell their hardware. I personally buy Apple to use the software. The hardware is very nice and usually lasts quite well. But I but it for their software. I use Dell/IBM, etc. laptops with Windows all day at the office, so I do know the differences. I do not think WFBs get this. Thank you, Mark Snyder Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
Stewart, I am more than happy to allow you to enjoy Windows, if you wish. I was merely making a point, not dissing anyone. Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- I use Dell's all day long and am supremely happy with them. So what is the big deal? Why can't we just get along. (I know tired phrase) Why is it that everyone has to keep trying to show who has the bigger whatever or the better whatever. Sounds like the old line of whose dad is the bigger one or best. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
I use Dell's all day long and am supremely happy with them. So what is the big deal? I use Dells and Macs all day long. So what is the big deal indeed? You folks act like I don't know what a PC is. I know how to build them and I know how to program them. And I know how to avoid them too. But that is not the topic. Can I remember far back enough to recall the topic? I think it all started with the new MS ads and how they were a response to the long-running Apple series. Someone said that most people buying computers don't know squat about computers. I agreed and said that many people buy PCs, not from knowledge, but from coercion and fear. I gave examples. That caused a big brouhaha, but zero counter examples and zero counter explanations. I still stand by my take on what Apple vs MS is about: the snarky Apple ads are aimed at battering down the fears of low-self-esteem PC buyers and instilling new fears of dorkdom. (Remember the one with the cute Japanese girl? Mac gets the girl.) The new MS ads are aimed at countering Apple by presenting dorkdum in a favorable light. (Is that sufficient to prevail?) I'm selling Kiss me I'm a Dork Ts at Cafe Press. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
Why is it impossible that there are actually people who don't mind...in fact prefer to use windows? Off topic. Nobody denies this. Think of the most peverse thing you can imagine. I won't deny that there are actually people who don't mind and in fact enjoy it. So what? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
You don't get to attribute quality using a 10,000,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong type of argument. I couldn't agree more, and yet that is exactly what you do, repeatedly. Not at all. Tom, you do this routinely. Just a couple of days ago: Zune is a loser because everybody buys iPods. Remember? I know that you were paraphrasing Pogue, but why post that if you don't agree with the premise? you are just so emotional about your prejudices If I were, in fact, prejudiced, you could go back in the archives and find all my Apple sux posts. Unfortunately, there aren't any. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
Yer the king of off topic...so you'd know On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is it impossible that there are actually people who don't mind...in fact prefer to use windows? Off topic. Nobody denies this. Think of the most peverse thing you can imagine. I won't deny that there are actually people who don't mind and in fact enjoy it. So what? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
On Sep 22, 2008, at 1:21 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote: Not always the case. I have a lot of stuff that is quite old and is still chugging along. So do I (and come to think of it so am I). ;^) Want a 386? Got one in my garage. No thanks - I did run one (under LINUX) up until a few years ago though. There are still a ton of Chevy's on the road, while many of the Ferrari's and porches are no longer mobile. They also cost a mint to keep running. True, but many of the similar year Japanese cars did not cost more, or only a little more, and have held up much, much, better. Price point is not always indicative of quality. I never said it was, only that quality is worth a nominally higher price. Stewart At 12:13 PM 9/22/2008, you wrote: Stewart; The thing is, if I have to constantly step in to keep toy A working smoothly, and toy B is likely to be still working and in great shape, such that I can pass it on to the next one who will use it long after toy A is in the trash, I am buying toy B as it is a much better deal. This by the way is the approach I took toward actual Toys for my kids. It was not the quality (expensive) toys that the kids broke, those were passed down child to child to child to nieces and nephews (and in some cases initially from nieces and nephews that were older). Well made, works well, and lasts trumps a bit cheaper every time for me. Even better when the well made is actually not significantly more expensive at the same level of capability. Matthew Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 1:40 PM, mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Get what? Why is it impossible that there are actually people who don't mind...in fact prefer to use windows? It is not impossible. No one said it was. In fact, it happens to be the case. Among those people who have tried 2, 3, or more different operating systems on the desktop, very few still prefer Windows overall. There are niche areas where Windows wins - if you want to play Crysis, or Far Cry, you will prefer Windows over Linux or Mac. And rightfully so. But overall, for many of us, seeing people use Windows is like seeing them spend money on lottery tickets. Often the ones who are doing either one can afford it the least. -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
But overall, for many of us, seeing people use Windows is like seeing them spend money on lottery tickets. Often the ones who are doing either one can afford it the least. Gosh, I can't wait to try out those systems those smug and condescending fellows were talking about! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
I did not see the original post on this thread, but would like to add that there is a perception in micro business and nonprofit worlds that the learning curve from PC to Mac/Apple is large. As most of the incoming workforce and the volunteer base grew up on PCs, this may be another reason to keep from switching. Not valid, necessarily, imo, but a real perception regardless. /gayley knight mothergeek.com businessherway.net On Sep 22, 2008, at 10:07 AM, Tom Piwowar wrote: Well thank you for proving my point, though I don't appreciate the crudity and am not quoting that part of your post. When you have to resort to crudity it is a good sign that your case is not a good one. You are only trying to squelch discussion. An organization that has to depend on second-hand donations and vendor give aways is clearly not operating in a free market. Just like someone sleeping on a park bench on a cold Winter night is not exercising a free market preference for cold and hard beds. So back to my original statement. In a distorted, non-free market popularity is not a good surrogate for perceived quality. You don't get to attribute quality using a 10,000,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong type of argument. I guess it is time to insert a little economy into the discussion of why people buy PC's with windows. 1. Most Non-Profits, like the one that I volunteer for seem to perpetually have a lack of funds to purchase PC's. Lots of what they get are second hand donations which makes the price correct. 2. Many small business's of 3-10 persons like law, medical and accounting offices purchase their PC's base on bang for the buck. which means price. I bought a client 4 Dell's from MicroCenter for $399 each, they came with XP Pro, 1gig Ram and 80 gig hard disks. And a keyboard and mouse included. No monitors but cheap LCD's abound. 3. Non-Profits can purchase software and hardware thru TechSoup, which MS sells their XP pro for around $8 a copy. And MS Office pro for about the same. Of course the Non-Profit that I volunteer for has around 120 workstations and 8 windows 2003 servers. No Apple products were available for them to purchase at a cheap price like Intel PC's and MS products. They did get a really good price break from Dell on their servers and switch's. (I don't think that the BOD would approve purchasing MAC's when they can get Windows PC's for a small amount of outlay.) Techsoup is the primary place for validated non-profit's to acquire hardware and software at real cheap prices. No Apple products seem to be visible. I understand that Apple does provide software/hardware in small amounts to some non-profits that jump thru the many-many hoops to get it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http:// www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
Another aspect of fear that I failed to mention. Thanks. A false belief BTW. I did not see the original post on this thread, but would like to add that there is a perception in micro business and nonprofit worlds that the learning curve from PC to Mac/Apple is large. As most of the incoming workforce and the volunteer base grew up on PCs, this may be another reason to keep from switching. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
Tom, you do this routinely. Just a couple of days ago: Zune is a loser because everybody buys iPods. Remember? I know that you were paraphrasing Pogue, but why post that if you don't agree with the premise? This shows that you did not read what I wrote. This is what started the hullabaloo. I wrote that market share was a good indicator of perceived quality for MP3 players because this was a free market. I then wrote that the same was not true for computers because that was not a free market. I gave a bunch of examples to show how the market was distorted. It is not reasonable to make blanket statements and insist they must apply in all situations. That's like saying all fasteners must be installed using a hammer. I'm saying that sometimes we use hammers and sometimes we use other tools. It depends on the situation. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W
On Sep 22, 2008, at 5:15 PM, GK wrote: I did not see the original post on this thread, but would like to add that there is a perception in micro business and nonprofit worlds that the learning curve from PC to Mac/Apple is large. As most of the incoming workforce and the volunteer base grew up on PCs, this may be another reason to keep from switching. I agree. That is one of the main reasons that Microsoft and PC makers fight to get their stuff into the public schools and why Apple tries to counter those efforts. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
