Re: Entire ISP Forced to Close
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: If backbone providers start screening content, it's going to cause problems. Eh. Cause problems or solve them. If backbone providers start screening content, it may just finally motivate people to be multi-homed. Which they've been pretty lax about until now. Bear
Re: Entire ISP Forced to Close
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: Imagine if the few big backbone providers decided to enforce content restrictions in their sole discretion. Good luck hosting anything controversial anywhere. Multi-homed domain naming systems, Splinternets Spread Spectrum Burst Radio with a layer of 'Small Network' (as opposed to PGP's 'web of trust') managed encryption. ...where annual election ends, tyranny begins; Thomas Jefferson Samuel Adams The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Entire ISP Forced to Close
Sounds like the 'free market' working to me...a business does have the right to tell a customer No, I don't think I want your money. Forcing the upstream provider to do something they don't want to do simply for their own economic profit doesn't sound like a very reasonable view. Not everything is modeled in 'economic' terms. On Wed, 16 May 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: Phix, the ISP who for many years hosted BoyChat, and currently hosts SafeHaven, has just been threated with a total bandwidth cutoff by its upstream provider unless SafeHaven is terminated. The upstream provider, Hostcentric, is using the in its sole descretion clause in their contract with Phix to force this. Phix, a longtime champion of free speech as long as no laws are violated, considers this the last straw in a neverending series of acts of harrassment, and is planning on going out of business in June. Sometimes the bad guys win. Forwarded Message: From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 15 15:42 PDT 2001 Subject: Possible shutdown notice for www.safet.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:44:26 -0400 From: Brian Daffern Subject: RE: www.safet.net Pursuant to Hostcentric's Acceptable Use Policy (AUP), Hostcentric/Maxim reserves the absolute right (in its sole discretion) to remove any web site for any reason (including those itemized in the AUP), and to terminate any services agreement relating to such web site. Accordingly, this email will serve as notice to you that Hostcentric intends to exercise this right and requests that you terminate www.safet.net, one of the websites at IP number 209.25.139.67 immediately. If you fail to terminate the site within three days of the date on this email Hostcentric will proceed to deactivate the entire IP. We appreciate your assistance in this matter. Best wishes, Brian Daffern Forwarded Message: From: Anne McGee Subject: Possible shutdown notice for www.safet.net (fwd) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Dave, I'm sorry to inform you that our upstream provider has given us 3 days to terminate www.safet.net or they will terminate our service. Over the last few years we (Corey and I) have incurred tremendous liability standing up for what we believe to be a free speech issue. Corey was escorted (by armed security guards) off the premises of a company where he held a contract position when his association with Phix was brought to their attention. I've been the source of gossip and lost friends who don't share my viewpoint. Because i'm growing tired of the constant fight, threats, and lawyers fees i've decided to close Phix by the end of June. I asked them to allow us more time so that our users can relocate their sites but they haven't given me an answer yet. If I don't get an extention from them the site will be closed May 17th. You will still have access to retreive your files but traffic will not longer reach the site. They haven't given us notice regarding ibld.net and .org but I expect it's coming. I apologize. Anne Phix-net -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law ...where annual election ends, tyranny begins; Thomas Jefferson Samuel Adams The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Entire ISP Forced to Close
On Wed, 16 May 2001, David Honig wrote: It *is* working ---free agents are exercising their choice, without any ballistic inducement one way or another. Surely you don't have a problem with folks exercising choice? I'm not saying the market isn't working, C-A-C-L claims that 'free market' solutions ALWAYS work and are superior to 'other' alternatives because of the 'profit motive' is the failure. I figured somebody would try a 'backward' spin on it...;) ...where annual election ends, tyranny begins; Thomas Jefferson Samuel Adams The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
Re: Entire ISP Forced to Close
On Wed, 16 May 2001, Eric Cordian wrote: Still, the Internet is for the most part a Star Network, with only the very largest providers multi-homed. This is not true, unless your definition of 'the very largest' is very loose indeed. There are many thousands of multi-homed ISPs. People periodically attempt to draw graphs of the relationships between ISPs. If you look at these you see nothing similar to a star network. This hasn't been my experience here in the US. I am familiar with about 10 ISPs, from small mom and pop operations, to mid-size regional providers. I have at least some knowledge of hundreds, in many different countries, including the US. I was a director of the UK ISP association until last week, and was one of the founders of the European ISP assocation, EuroISPA. The smallest ones have a single line. Even a pretty big ISP can run on a single OC3, with a backup DS3. There are a few with a handful of OC12 and OC3 circuits, but these were generally obtained for specific customers. I can't imagine an ISP with 50+ distinct peers, with separate circuits to each. You will find that the largest networks have many hundreds of peers. Most peering is done across Internet exchange points such as the LINX in London (120+ members), MAE East in Virginia, and MAE West in San Jose. There are at least a dozen large exchange points in the USA. While I haven't done any actual counting, my impression is that having 50 or so peers at an exchange is normal. Certainly when we connected to MAE West five or six years ago, we picked up 20-30 peerings immediately and with no difficulty. Many or most exchange points publish peering matrixes. See www.linx.net for an example. Unless you're UUNET or Sprint-sized, you generally get most of your bandwidth through a single pipe. A significant number of our customers are ISPs. Many of them are multi-homed. Some of our larger non-ISP customers are as well. The first step in multi-homing is getting an autonomous system number. Something in the region of 20,000 ASNs have been allocated. This is a rough (very rough) measure of the number of multi-homed organizations on the planet. No ISP is going to lose its connectivity, by refusing to delete a single customer their upstream provider doesn't like. If backbone providers start screening content, it's going to cause problems. As the industry has told the UK government and the European Commission in negotiations over the last several years, it's actually technically impossible. Governments in Europe are always on the brink of mandating screening of one sort or another. ISP association spend a great deal of time educating them on what is possible. -- Jim Dixon VBCnet GB Ltd http://www.vbc.net tel +44 117 929 1316 fax +44 117 927 2015
Re: Entire ISP Forced to Close
At 09:03 PM 5/16/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: On Wed, 16 May 2001, Tim May wrote: Bank of America is perfectly free to choose its customers as it wishes, just as an ISP is perfectly free not to have as its customers those who run websites catering to homosexual pedophiles. Which is only another reason that classic 'free market' economics (or a significant portion of C-A-C-L philosopy) don't work. In such a system business in fact doesn't have that option. It *is* working ---free agents are exercising their choice, without any ballistic inducement one way or another. Surely you don't have a problem with folks exercising choice?
Re: Entire ISP Forced to Close
what was boychat? just the name sounds too nambla-ish for my tastes :( atek3 - Original Message - From: Eric Cordian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 8:59 AM Subject: CDR: Entire ISP Forced to Close Phix, the ISP who for many years hosted BoyChat, and currently hosts SafeHaven, has just been threated with a total bandwidth cutoff by its upstream provider unless SafeHaven is terminated. The upstream provider, Hostcentric, is using the in its sole descretion clause in their contract with Phix to force this. Phix, a longtime champion of free speech as long as no laws are violated, considers this the last straw in a neverending series of acts of harrassment, and is planning on going out of business in June. Sometimes the bad guys win. Forwarded Message: From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 15 15:42 PDT 2001 Subject: Possible shutdown notice for www.safet.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 18:44:26 -0400 From: Brian Daffern Subject: RE: www.safet.net Pursuant to Hostcentric's Acceptable Use Policy (AUP), Hostcentric/Maxim reserves the absolute right (in its sole discretion) to remove any web site for any reason (including those itemized in the AUP), and to terminate any services agreement relating to such web site. Accordingly, this email will serve as notice to you that Hostcentric intends to exercise this right and requests that you terminate www.safet.net, one of the websites at IP number 209.25.139.67 immediately. If you fail to terminate the site within three days of the date on this email Hostcentric will proceed to deactivate the entire IP. We appreciate your assistance in this matter. Best wishes, Brian Daffern Forwarded Message: From: Anne McGee Subject: Possible shutdown notice for www.safet.net (fwd) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 20:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Dave, I'm sorry to inform you that our upstream provider has given us 3 days to terminate www.safet.net or they will terminate our service. Over the last few years we (Corey and I) have incurred tremendous liability standing up for what we believe to be a free speech issue. Corey was escorted (by armed security guards) off the premises of a company where he held a contract position when his association with Phix was brought to their attention. I've been the source of gossip and lost friends who don't share my viewpoint. Because i'm growing tired of the constant fight, threats, and lawyers fees i've decided to close Phix by the end of June. I asked them to allow us more time so that our users can relocate their sites but they haven't given me an answer yet. If I don't get an extention from them the site will be closed May 17th. You will still have access to retreive your files but traffic will not longer reach the site. They haven't given us notice regarding ibld.net and .org but I expect it's coming. I apologize. Anne Phix-net -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
