Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Dear Martin, > I must admit that I cannot easily answer large e-mails that mix up several > issues. Yes, sorry for the mess. > Firstly, a philosophical question for the below: Why do make the distinction > of known knowledge? The CRM FOL are explicitly about being, not (only) about > knowing. If you implicitly argue that the CRM should describe only known > knowlegde, I'd recommend you to read the paper by Carlo Meghini (and me) > formalizing the CRM, and we discuss details! I did read it. I skipped the skolemisation part and only read the Wikipedia article, though :-) The term "known knowledge" was not good. Let's go with "current knowledge" instead. I don't say that the CRM should describe only current knowledge. I do say specifically about P7 that it should make up its mind whether it is about being or about knowing. Concretely, I suggest that P7 statements should only describe what is currently known, especially since it is so important to you to model finding the best known approximation of the phenomenal place. In other words, I see P7 as a "declarative property" that encodes explicit attestations and inferred knowledge. P161, on the other hand, is a "phenomenal property" and about being rather than knowing. Both are fundamentally different. I think it is pointless to soften this up by saying that all places between the phenomenal place and an attested P7 are also P7. Then one has to distinguish between known and as-yet-unknown P7. Take this scale of P7 statements from small to big: phenomenal place … P7 places that are as-yet-unknown … the smallest inferrable P7 … some inferred P7 … an explicit attestation … more inferred P7 … the largest explicit attestation that we know of and still regard as P7 … places that are regarded as too big to be P7 … planet Earth So, my point is that the "P7 places that are as-yet-unknown" part at the beginning of the scale obscures the semantics of P7 and is neither useful nor necessary. It is enough to be able to find the smallest inferrable P7. In particular, I used to think that the relationship between P161 and P7 is vaguely similar to "has current X" and "has former or current X", but I now think it is pointless to say P161(x,y) ∧ E4(x) ⇒ P7(x,y) because it says that the phenomenal place is automatically the best P7 approximation of itself, only that it can never actually be known. Even if you see it differently, would you agree that my interpretation of P7 is consistent and "does the job"? > Secondly, > > I am a bit at loss what you mean by S1,S2,S2a. Perhaps my description was too terse. S1: P7 contains P161 (not "P7 => P161" as I wrote earlier) * this is the first statement in the FOL block of P7 (after the domain and range statements) * S1 states that each P7 provides an approximation of P161 * the exact form of S1 is discussed at length below S2: P7 => all places between phenomenal place and P7 are also P7 * this is the second statement in the FOL block of P7 * S2 covers the scale above from "phenomenal place" to "the largest explicit attestation that we know of and still regard as P7" * i.e. mixing up being and knowing S2a: S2 but with P7 instead of P161 * this is the version of the second statement where the term P161(x,z) is replaced by P7(x,z) * S2a covers everything between pairs of known P7 * if we can reach "the smallest inferrable P7", it covers the scale above from "the smallest inferrable P7" to "the largest explicit attestation that we know of and still regard as P7" * i.e. purely about knowing F: the (explicitly named) intersection of two P7 is also P7 * F makes sure that we can indeed reach "the smallest inferrable P7" * i.e. purely about knowing > I regard that P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y) is wrong. It is > definitely that P7 implies that there exists a spatial projection inside the > y in the same reference space. NOT, that if a spatial projection exists, it > is inside the Y. It doesn't mean that. The convention in the CIDOC CRM document is that implicit quantifiers are always "for all", not "exists". So it's more like "if z is the spatial projection". P161 is one of the thingies that behave like a function. It depends on x and a reference system, and it exists independently of any P7. Let's call this function F161. It is defined as z = F161(x) ⇔ P161(x,z) The reference system is conveniently left out here but could easily be added as a second variable u, as in F161(x,u). With the usual implicit (∀x,y), all the following statements are equivalent: P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] P7(x,y) ⇒ (∀z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y)] P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y) with an implicit (∀z) P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [z = F161(x) ∧ P89(z,y)] P7(x,y) ⇒ (∀z) [z = F161(x) ⇒ P89(z,y)] P7(x,y) ∧ z = F161(x) ⇒ P89(z,y) with implicit (∀z) P7(x,y) ⇒ P89(F161(x), y) We haven't introduced function symbols yet. From the remaining versions I chose the one with
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Dear Wolfgang, I must admit that I cannot easily answer large e-mails that mix up several issues. Firstly, a philosophical question for the below: Why do make the distinction of known knowledge? The CRM FOL are explicitly about being, not (only) about knowing. If you implicitly argue that the CRM should describe only known knowlegde, I'd recommend you to read the paper by Carlo Meghini (and me) formalizing the CRM, and we discuss details! Secondly, I am a bit at loss what you mean by S1,S2,S2a. I regard that P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y) is wrong. It is definitely that P7 implies that there exists a spatial projection inside the y in the same reference space. NOT, that if a spatial projection exists, it is inside the Y. Please clarify! Best, Martin On 10/24/2022 11:15 AM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Martin, Thank you for your insightful comments! Yes, I agree on your points about fuzziness and about FOL for outer bound approximations. The "creation" of a spatial projection is probably a misunderstanding. Fair enough, my words were not chosen well. My point was that the intersection belongs to a group of phenomenal or unique declarative thingies that behave like functions. I was trying to elaborate that we can introduce a function symbol representing the intersection even if FOL doesn't "know" about intersections. And let's forget about the union of attested places. My point was simply that we shouldn't argue with wobbly terms like "reasonable" or "context". For example, especially in the case of Caesar's murder one could argue that the context is in fact the whole Roman Empire. I am fine with S2 on that end of the scale if we don't burden it with semantic ballast. On the other end we have, assuming a shared reference system: S1: P7 => P161 S2: P7 => all places between phenomenal place and P7 are also P7 S2a: S2 but with P7 instead of P161 F: the (explicitly named) intersection of two P7 is also P7 We know S2 => S2a and F With the help of your comments I can now sharpen my point to this: S1 plus S2a plus F are enough to describe the known knowledge. Everything else that could theoretically be inferred by S2 is not known knowledge. Take your example about detecting inconsistencies: Ceasar dying on the Forum Romanum has an empty intersection with the Theatrum Pompeii, on the Mars Field. Obviously inconconsistent. Consequently, Curia Iulia must be wrong. This can be done with F. Best, Wolfgang Am 23.10.2022 um 21:24 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig : Dear Wolfgang, I would like to add that your argument that the respective FOL would "only" help to detect inconsistencies, in my opinion, is a misunderstanding of the importance of detecting inconsistencies. The fact that P7s are not trivially contradictory, if they are different for the same event, is really not marginal. By chance, your remark about Caesar's death, which will duly be processed, shows: Ceasar dying in Rome : Identical, correct. Ceasar dying on the Forum Romanum has an empty intersection with the Theatrum Pompeii, on the Mars Field. Obviously inconconsistent. Consequently, Curia Iulia must be wrong. Also, note that approximations need a target of comparison. This target is the "real" spatial projection, which is not an approximation. This is not accessible to FOL, but to observation only. I think the reasoning you present does not give an adequate account of this. Unions of approximations do not make sense. Intersections of approximations, which are outer bounds, do make sense. The intersection of all outer bound approximations is the target (except for infinitesimal wholes and other weird math forms). Therefore, we need an FOL that identifies all P7s as outer bound approximations of one, unique, real extent. Fuzziness introduces another complication. It means that outer bound approximations coming "too near" to the real one, may become questionable. Inner bound approximations would require unions for improvement. Other approximations may minimize deviations from borders by various metrics. The outer bound approximations are the ones which are processed most economically with FOL, except for the observational facts, which cannot be inferred. would you agree on that? Cheers, Martin On 10/22/2022 11:23 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Wolfgang, A lot of questions and text! I am not sure how to interpret a "sphere of reasonability". We can see two epistemological reasons why the area of a P7 is taken relatively wide: A) no better knowledge. In that case, in information integration, one would regard the intersections of all given P7s as the best location. I do not see a utility in the union of P7s. B) different interpretations of scholars of the area of immediate impact of the event. Caesar's murder has a context extending into Rome. Logically, this is more about what is thought that the event includes, i.e., differently defined
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Dear Martin, Thank you for your insightful comments! Yes, I agree on your points about fuzziness and about FOL for outer bound approximations. > The "creation" of a spatial projection is probably a misunderstanding. Fair enough, my words were not chosen well. My point was that the intersection belongs to a group of phenomenal or unique declarative thingies that behave like functions. I was trying to elaborate that we can introduce a function symbol representing the intersection even if FOL doesn't "know" about intersections. And let's forget about the union of attested places. My point was simply that we shouldn't argue with wobbly terms like "reasonable" or "context". For example, especially in the case of Caesar's murder one could argue that the context is in fact the whole Roman Empire. I am fine with S2 on that end of the scale if we don't burden it with semantic ballast. On the other end we have, assuming a shared reference system: S1: P7 => P161 S2: P7 => all places between phenomenal place and P7 are also P7 S2a: S2 but with P7 instead of P161 F: the (explicitly named) intersection of two P7 is also P7 We know S2 => S2a and F With the help of your comments I can now sharpen my point to this: S1 plus S2a plus F are enough to describe the known knowledge. Everything else that could theoretically be inferred by S2 is not known knowledge. Take your example about detecting inconsistencies: > Ceasar dying on the Forum Romanum has an empty intersection with the Theatrum > Pompeii, on the Mars Field. Obviously inconconsistent. > Consequently, Curia Iulia must be wrong. This can be done with F. Best, Wolfgang > Am 23.10.2022 um 21:24 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > : > > Dear Wolfgang, > > I would like to add that your argument that the respective FOL would "only" > help to detect inconsistencies, in my opinion, is a misunderstanding of the > importance of detecting inconsistencies. > > The fact that P7s are not trivially contradictory, if they are different for > the same event, is really not marginal. > By chance, your remark about Caesar's death, which will duly be processed, > shows: > > Ceasar dying in Rome : Identical, correct. > Ceasar dying on the Forum Romanum has an empty intersection with the Theatrum > Pompeii, on the Mars Field. Obviously inconconsistent. > Consequently, Curia Iulia must be wrong. > > Also, note that approximations need a target of comparison. This target is > the "real" spatial projection, which is not an approximation. This is not > accessible to FOL, but to observation only. I think the reasoning you present > does not give an adequate account of this. Unions of approximations do not > make sense. Intersections of approximations, which are outer bounds, do make > sense. The intersection of all outer bound approximations is the target > (except for infinitesimal wholes and other weird math forms). Therefore, we > need an FOL that identifies all P7s as outer bound approximations of one, > unique, real extent. > Fuzziness introduces another complication. It means that outer bound > approximations coming "too near" to the real one, may become questionable. > > Inner bound approximations would require unions for improvement. > > Other approximations may minimize deviations from borders by various metrics. > > The outer bound approximations are the ones which are processed most > economically with FOL, except for the observational facts, which cannot be > inferred. > > would you agree on that? > > Cheers, > > Martin > > On 10/22/2022 11:23 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: >> Dear Wolfgang, >> >> A lot of questions and text! I am not sure how to interpret a "sphere of >> reasonability". We can see two epistemological reasons why the area of a P7 >> is taken relatively wide: >> >> A) no better knowledge. In that case, in information integration, one would >> regard the intersections of all given P7s as the best location. I do not see >> a utility in the union of P7s. >> >> B) different interpretations of scholars of the area of immediate impact of >> the event. Caesar's murder has a context extending into Rome. Logically, >> this is more about what is thought that the event includes, i.e., >> differently defined instances of E5. Would need renegotiation of the >> identity of the event. >> >> One utility of S2 is not to infer a new P7, but to decide that two different >> P7 are compatible, and the intersection is better. >> >> Another utility is knowledge about the Presence of participants: If you know >> that Kant wrote his Kritik der Reinen Vernunft in Germany, and learn that he >> never left Königsberg, necessarily the Event took place in Königsberg at >> most. >> >> There may be other such constraints. Need to think about! >> >> "A town in Schleswig" is a finite set, and not Germany. Reasoning with >> alternatives and disambiguating is a different issue, not anything specific >> to P7, isn't
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Dear Wolfgang, I would like to add that your argument that the respective FOL would "only" help to detect inconsistencies, in my opinion, is a misunderstanding of the importance of detecting inconsistencies. The fact that P7s are not trivially contradictory, if they are different for the same event, is really not marginal. By chance, your remark about Caesar's death, which will duly be processed, shows: Ceasar dying in Rome : Identical, correct. Ceasar dying on the Forum Romanum has an empty intersection with the Theatrum Pompeii, on the Mars Field. Obviously inconconsistent. Consequently, Curia Iulia must be wrong. Also, note that approximations need a target of comparison. This target is the "real" spatial projection, which is not an approximation. This is not accessible to FOL, but to observation only. I think the reasoning you present does not give an adequate account of this. Unions of approximations do not make sense. Intersections of approximations, which are outer bounds, do make sense. The intersection of all outer bound approximations is the target (except for infinitesimal wholes and other weird math forms). Therefore, we need an FOL that identifies all P7s as outer bound approximations of one, unique, real extent. Fuzziness introduces another complication. It means that outer bound approximations coming "too near" to the real one, may become questionable. Inner bound approximations would require unions for improvement. Other approximations may minimize deviations from borders by various metrics. The outer bound approximations are the ones which are processed most economically with FOL, except for the observational facts, which cannot be inferred. would you agree on that? Cheers, Martin On 10/22/2022 11:23 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Wolfgang, A lot of questions and text! I am not sure how to interpret a "sphere of reasonability". We can see two epistemological reasons why the area of a P7 is taken relatively wide: A) no better knowledge. In that case, in information integration, one would regard the intersections of all given P7s as the best location. I do not see a utility in the union of P7s. B) different interpretations of scholars of the area of immediate impact of the event. Caesar's murder has a context extending into Rome. Logically, this is more about what is thought that the event includes, i.e., differently defined instances of E5. Would need renegotiation of the identity of the event. One utility of S2 is not to infer a new P7, but to decide that two different P7 are compatible, and the intersection is better. Another utility is knowledge about the Presence of participants: If you know that Kant wrote his Kritik der Reinen Vernunft in Germany, and learn that he never left Königsberg, necessarily the Event took place in Königsberg at most. There may be other such constraints. Need to think about! "A town in Schleswig" is a finite set, and not Germany. Reasoning with alternatives and disambiguating is a different issue, not anything specific to P7, isn't it? The "creation" of a spatial projection is probably a misunderstanding. It is not created, it is the phenomenon itself, and depends solely on the spatiotemporal unity criteria applying to the Event. These are normally fuzzy. CRMgeo describes in much detail the differentiation between declarative approximation and phenomenal places. Would that make sense? Cheers, Martin On 10/22/2022 12:39 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Re-reading my email, I would like to add: My first main point is this: The second statement (S2) declares some non-attested places to be P7 places, but by definition no one knows this or can point to a single declarative place where it would apply. I can only establish such a fact via other means, never with the help of S2. Can you describe a scenario where S2 is actually useful? And the set of places that S2 gives P7 status is strangely formed. Let us for a moment replace the spatial projection with the best known approximation z. If I have two attested places x and y, then I can infer P7 for any place between z and x and any place between z and y, but not for a place that is in the union of x and y but neither fully in x nor fully in y. So the sphere of established reasonability is not even the union of attested places. About my "Mölln" example: Of course the place attestation is Mölln. My argument is that if someone deemed it necessary to add "a town in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany", then it makes it reasonable to say "it happened in Germany". My second main point is: Let us introduce function symbols, which are perfectly fine in FOL. With the help of F121 "overlap of" one can infer P7 statements that are actually useful, as the newly attested places provide better approximations of the phenomenal place. We can define F121 in FOL or we can treat its definition as a black box, just like we
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Dear Wolfgang, A lot of questions and text! I am not sure how to interpret a "sphere of reasonability". We can see two epistemological reasons why the area of a P7 is taken relatively wide: A) no better knowledge. In that case, in information integration, one would regard the intersections of all given P7s as the best location. I do not see a utility in the union of P7s. B) different interpretations of scholars of the area of immediate impact of the event. Caesar's murder has a context extending into Rome. Logically, this is more about what is thought that the event includes, i.e., differently defined instances of E5. Would need renegotiation of the identity of the event. One utility of S2 is not to infer a new P7, but to decide that two different P7 are compatible, and the intersection is better. Another utility is knowledge about the Presence of participants: If you know that Kant wrote his Kritik der Reinen Vernunft in Germany, and learn that he never left Königsberg, necessarily the Event took place in Königsberg at most. There may be other such constraints. Need to think about! "A town in Schleswig" is a finite set, and not Germany. Reasoning with alternatives and disambiguating is a different issue, not anything specific to P7, isn't it? The "creation" of a spatial projection is probably a misunderstanding. It is not created, it is the phenomenon itself, and depends solely on the spatiotemporal unity criteria applying to the Event. These are normally fuzzy. CRMgeo describes in much detail the differentiation between declarative approximation and phenomenal places. Would that make sense? Cheers, Martin On 10/22/2022 12:39 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Re-reading my email, I would like to add: My first main point is this: The second statement (S2) declares some non-attested places to be P7 places, but by definition no one knows this or can point to a single declarative place where it would apply. I can only establish such a fact via other means, never with the help of S2. Can you describe a scenario where S2 is actually useful? And the set of places that S2 gives P7 status is strangely formed. Let us for a moment replace the spatial projection with the best known approximation z. If I have two attested places x and y, then I can infer P7 for any place between z and x and any place between z and y, but not for a place that is in the union of x and y but neither fully in x nor fully in y. So the sphere of established reasonability is not even the union of attested places. About my "Mölln" example: Of course the place attestation is Mölln. My argument is that if someone deemed it necessary to add "a town in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany", then it makes it reasonable to say "it happened in Germany". My second main point is: Let us introduce function symbols, which are perfectly fine in FOL. With the help of F121 "overlap of" one can infer P7 statements that are actually useful, as the newly attested places provide better approximations of the phenomenal place. We can define F121 in FOL or we can treat its definition as a black box, just like we don't explain in the scope note of P161 how the process of creating a spatial projection actually works, let alone attempt a definition in FOL. Instead, in the scope note of P121 we can say something like this: The actual overlap defines another instance of P53 Place that is taken as the value of a function F121 "overlap of". Am 21.10.2022 um 10:51 schrieb Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig : Dear Martin, Thank you for your explanation! I am beginning to see clearer. Let us look more closely at the FOL statement. If we assume an established common reference space, then the FOL block of P7 after the usual P7(x,y) ⇒ E4(x) P7(x,y) ⇒ E53(y) can be succinctly written as P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y) P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ∧ P89(v,y) ⇒ P7(x,v) Applied to the example "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome, but also on the Forum Romanum, and more precisely in the Curia" from the scope note: The first statement formalises that the phenomenal place falls within Rome, the Forum Romanum and the Curia. However, I am genuinely not sure what the second statement adds to that. The attestation "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome" establishes the reasonable upper bound y = Rome. Within this bound, i.e. for all places v within Rome, it becomes E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ⇒ P7(x,v) In other words: P89(spatial projection z, v) ⇒ P7(x,v) Together with the first statement: for all v in Rome: P7(x,v) ⇔ P89(spatial projection z, v) P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(v,y) ⇒ [ P7(x,v) ⇔ P89(z,v) ] And what do we learn from this? In order to determine whether a given place z is worthy of an inferred "Caesaer's murder took place at z" without ever explicitly being called this in the literature, one must not only verify the fact that it includes the
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Second addendum: Strictly speaking, you *can* infer information from S2: First infer from S1 that the phenomenal place is in the Curia, and from the transitivity of P89 that any v that contains the Curia also contains the phenomenal place. Then apply S2 to any v between the Curia and Rome. But of course you can do the same if you reformulate S2 to apply directly to all places between two attested places, i.e. where P161(x,z) is replaced by P7(x,z): P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P7(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ∧ P89(v,y) ∧ E18(u) ∧ P157(y,u) ∧ P157(z,u) ∧ P157(v,u) ⇒ P7(x,v) Let's inspect Caesar's murder scene one more time. From the P7 scope note: > Something that has happened at a given place can also be considered to have > happened at a smaller place within it: for example, it is reasonable to say > Ceasar's murder took place in Rome, but also on the Forum Romanum, and more > precisely in the Curia. It is characteristic for different historical sources > to use varying precision in such statements, without being in contradiction > with each other. First of all, the example is not correct. Caesar wasn't murdered in the Curia Iulia on the Forum Romanum but in the Curia Pompeia, part of the Theatrum Pompeii. With the corrected example and z = Curia Pompeia and y = Rome, we can infer P7 for v = Theatrum Pompeii. But the Theatrum Pompeii is of course attested in itself and doesn't need S2. In other words, while the quoted passage makes sense (although the first sentence makes it sound as if any smaller place qualifies, especially together with the example in its present form), it cannot be the rationale for introducing S2. The passage simply states that multiple P7 statements for attested places occur and do not automatically contradict each other. Instead, S2 can be applied to all the previously unattested places between attested places, for example the Campus Martius where the Theatrum Pompeii was located (assuming for the sake of argument that it hasn't been attested yet and that we are nonetheless interested in this fact, for example to avoid holes in our gazetteer hierarchy). > Am 22.10.2022 um 11:39 schrieb Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig > : > > Re-reading my email, I would like to add: > > My first main point is this: The second statement (S2) declares some > non-attested places to be P7 places, but by definition no one knows this or > can point to a single declarative place where it would apply. I can only > establish such a fact via other means, never with the help of S2. Can you > describe a scenario where S2 is actually useful? > > And the set of places that S2 gives P7 status is strangely formed. Let us for > a moment replace the spatial projection with the best known approximation z. > If I have two attested places x and y, then I can infer P7 for any place > between z and x and any place between z and y, but not for a place that is in > the union of x and y but neither fully in x nor fully in y. So the sphere of > established reasonability is not even the union of attested places. > > About my "Mölln" example: Of course the place attestation is Mölln. My > argument is that if someone deemed it necessary to add "a town in > Schleswig-Holstein, Germany", then it makes it reasonable to say "it happened > in Germany". > > My second main point is: Let us introduce function symbols, which are > perfectly fine in FOL. With the help of F121 "overlap of" one can infer P7 > statements that are actually useful, as the newly attested places provide > better approximations of the phenomenal place. > > We can define F121 in FOL or we can treat its definition as a black box, just > like we don't explain in the scope note of P161 how the process of creating a > spatial projection actually works, let alone attempt a definition in FOL. > Instead, in the scope note of P121 we can say something like this: > The actual overlap defines another instance of P53 Place that is taken as the > value of a function F121 "overlap of". > > >> Am 21.10.2022 um 10:51 schrieb Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig >> : >> >> Dear Martin, >> >> Thank you for your explanation! I am beginning to see clearer. >> >> Let us look more closely at the FOL statement. If we assume an established >> common reference space, then the FOL block of P7 after the usual >> P7(x,y) ⇒ E4(x) >> P7(x,y) ⇒ E53(y) >> can be succinctly written as >> >> P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y) >> P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ∧ P89(v,y) ⇒ P7(x,v) >> >> Applied to the example "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome, but also on the >> Forum Romanum, and more precisely in the Curia" from the scope note: The >> first statement formalises that the phenomenal place falls within Rome, the >> Forum Romanum and the Curia. However, I am genuinely not sure what the >> second statement adds to that. >> >> The attestation "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome" establishes the >> reasonable upper bound
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Re-reading my email, I would like to add: My first main point is this: The second statement (S2) declares some non-attested places to be P7 places, but by definition no one knows this or can point to a single declarative place where it would apply. I can only establish such a fact via other means, never with the help of S2. Can you describe a scenario where S2 is actually useful? And the set of places that S2 gives P7 status is strangely formed. Let us for a moment replace the spatial projection with the best known approximation z. If I have two attested places x and y, then I can infer P7 for any place between z and x and any place between z and y, but not for a place that is in the union of x and y but neither fully in x nor fully in y. So the sphere of established reasonability is not even the union of attested places. About my "Mölln" example: Of course the place attestation is Mölln. My argument is that if someone deemed it necessary to add "a town in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany", then it makes it reasonable to say "it happened in Germany". My second main point is: Let us introduce function symbols, which are perfectly fine in FOL. With the help of F121 "overlap of" one can infer P7 statements that are actually useful, as the newly attested places provide better approximations of the phenomenal place. We can define F121 in FOL or we can treat its definition as a black box, just like we don't explain in the scope note of P161 how the process of creating a spatial projection actually works, let alone attempt a definition in FOL. Instead, in the scope note of P121 we can say something like this: The actual overlap defines another instance of P53 Place that is taken as the value of a function F121 "overlap of". > Am 21.10.2022 um 10:51 schrieb Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig > : > > Dear Martin, > > Thank you for your explanation! I am beginning to see clearer. > > Let us look more closely at the FOL statement. If we assume an established > common reference space, then the FOL block of P7 after the usual > P7(x,y) ⇒ E4(x) > P7(x,y) ⇒ E53(y) > can be succinctly written as > > P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y) > P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ∧ P89(v,y) ⇒ P7(x,v) > > Applied to the example "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome, but also on the > Forum Romanum, and more precisely in the Curia" from the scope note: The > first statement formalises that the phenomenal place falls within Rome, the > Forum Romanum and the Curia. However, I am genuinely not sure what the second > statement adds to that. > > The attestation "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome" establishes the > reasonable upper bound y = Rome. Within this bound, i.e. for all places v > within Rome, it becomes > E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ⇒ P7(x,v) > > In other words: P89(spatial projection z, v) ⇒ P7(x,v) > Together with the first statement: > for all v in Rome: P7(x,v) ⇔ P89(spatial projection z, v) > P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(v,y) ⇒ [ P7(x,v) ⇔ P89(z,v) ] > > And what do we learn from this? In order to determine whether a given place z > is worthy of an inferred "Caesaer's murder took place at z" without ever > explicitly being called this in the literature, one must not only verify the > fact that it includes the established best approximation of the actual place > (the intersection of all attested places), but also the fact that it lies > within the "sphere of established reasonability" for Caesar's death (probably > the union of all attested places). The sphere may become (even drastically) > bigger by a single additional good-faith statement but probably never gets > smaller, and each period/event/activity may have a different sphere of > established reasonability. Both the intersection and the union are ideally > but not necessarily entries in a gazetteer hierarchy. If an author writes "it > happened in Rome, which was the capital of the Roman Empire", does it > establish Rome or the Roman Empire? And probably implicitly with the extent > at the time of Caesar's death? What about "it happened in Mölln, a town in > Schleswig-Holstein, Germany"? Is this a matter of interpretation? > > I find it hard to wrap my head around this. > > > As an exercise, let us also try to formalise the intersection approach for > all attested places. Define a function symbol F121 "overlap of": > > z = F121(x,y) ⇒ E53(z) ∧ E53(x) ∧ E53(y) ∧ E121(x,y) > z = F121(x,y) ⇔ P89(z,x) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ (∀w) [E53(w) ∧ P89(w,x) ∧ P89(w,y) ⇒ > P89(w,z)] > > I am not even sure if one needs a formal definition like this. Defining the > intersection z is comparable to defining the place y in P161(x,y) as the > result of a spatial projection, as it is done in the scope note of P161. > > And there you have it: > > P7(x,y) ∧ P7(x,z) ⇒ P7(x, F121(y,z)) > > Best, > Wolfgang > > >> Am 20.10.2022 um 20:56 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig >> : >> >> Dear
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Dear Martin, Thank you for your explanation! I am beginning to see clearer. Let us look more closely at the FOL statement. If we assume an established common reference space, then the FOL block of P7 after the usual P7(x,y) ⇒ E4(x) P7(x,y) ⇒ E53(y) can be succinctly written as P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ⇒ P89(z,y) P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ∧ P89(v,y) ⇒ P7(x,v) Applied to the example "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome, but also on the Forum Romanum, and more precisely in the Curia" from the scope note: The first statement formalises that the phenomenal place falls within Rome, the Forum Romanum and the Curia. However, I am genuinely not sure what the second statement adds to that. The attestation "Ceasar's murder took place in Rome" establishes the reasonable upper bound y = Rome. Within this bound, i.e. for all places v within Rome, it becomes E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(z,v) ⇒ P7(x,v) In other words: P89(spatial projection z, v) ⇒ P7(x,v) Together with the first statement: for all v in Rome: P7(x,v) ⇔ P89(spatial projection z, v) P7(x,y) ∧ E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ E53(v) ∧ P89(v,y) ⇒ [ P7(x,v) ⇔ P89(z,v) ] And what do we learn from this? In order to determine whether a given place z is worthy of an inferred "Caesaer's murder took place at z" without ever explicitly being called this in the literature, one must not only verify the fact that it includes the established best approximation of the actual place (the intersection of all attested places), but also the fact that it lies within the "sphere of established reasonability" for Caesar's death (probably the union of all attested places). The sphere may become (even drastically) bigger by a single additional good-faith statement but probably never gets smaller, and each period/event/activity may have a different sphere of established reasonability. Both the intersection and the union are ideally but not necessarily entries in a gazetteer hierarchy. If an author writes "it happened in Rome, which was the capital of the Roman Empire", does it establish Rome or the Roman Empire? And probably implicitly with the extent at the time of Caesar's death? What about "it happened in Mölln, a town in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany"? Is this a matter of interpretation? I find it hard to wrap my head around this. As an exercise, let us also try to formalise the intersection approach for all attested places. Define a function symbol F121 "overlap of": z = F121(x,y) ⇒ E53(z) ∧ E53(x) ∧ E53(y) ∧ E121(x,y) z = F121(x,y) ⇔ P89(z,x) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ (∀w) [E53(w) ∧ P89(w,x) ∧ P89(w,y) ⇒ P89(w,z)] I am not even sure if one needs a formal definition like this. Defining the intersection z is comparable to defining the place y in P161(x,y) as the result of a spatial projection, as it is done in the scope note of P161. And there you have it: P7(x,y) ∧ P7(x,z) ⇒ P7(x, F121(y,z)) Best, Wolfgang > Am 20.10.2022 um 20:56 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig > : > > Dear Wolfgang, > > I regard that the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was never true, and > following the decision of the last SIG it does no more appear. > > The oral explanation in the SIG that is causes a useless recursion through > the world was just an indication that it was nonsensical from the beginning. > In my understanding, it was a confusion taking an inverse shortcut for a > shortcut. > > In my understanding, and actual scholarly practice, P7 expresses a > reasonable, NOT arbitrarily large, outer approximation of the place where > something happened. The narrower the better. > > Indeed, "we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was > within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be true or > inferrable for all z between the spatial projection and y" > > That is in the new FOL, isn't it? > > Indeed, > "If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise > information, a period such as the move of an object took place somewhere in > Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial > projection of the move and Europe but my information system couldn't actually > infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the > declarative place of the spatial projection is" > > We should be aware that "approximation" has no equivalent in FOL. It has a > quality, which can be formalized by metrics. If you have some background > knowledge in topology, you may be familiar with the respective concepts. > > Automatically, the intersection of all yi, i=1...n of P7(x,yi) constitutes > the best approximation. > > Best, > > Martin > > > On 10/20/2022 3:12 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: >> Sorry, second attempt: >> >> According to Christian-Emil's homework for issue 606, the reason to avoid >> the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was that it might create problems >> in hypothetical information systems that are clever
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Since my HW is mentioned. I tried to explain the change, P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z), seen form the point of view of practical applications. Martin argue correctly from a principle point of view. Time reasoning is similar, on the the two dimensional time line. A historian or an archaeologist will try to date an event A from the intersection of the timespan of other events during which A must have happened, see https://proceedings.caaconference.org/paper/17_holmen_ore_caa2009/ for a pedagogical, fictitious example. That the black plague in Norway happened in the 14th c. can of course be deduced form the usual estimate 1348-1350, but is usually not used in historical reasoning. Best, Christian-Emil From: Crm-sig on behalf of Martin Doerr via Crm-sig Sent: 20 October 2022 20:56 To: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true? Dear Wolfgang, I regard that the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was never true, and following the decision of the last SIG it does no more appear. The oral explanation in the SIG that is causes a useless recursion through the world was just an indication that it was nonsensical from the beginning. In my understanding, it was a confusion taking an inverse shortcut for a shortcut. In my understanding, and actual scholarly practice, P7 expresses a reasonable, NOT arbitrarily large, outer approximation of the place where something happened. The narrower the better. Indeed, "we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be true or inferrable for all z between the spatial projection and y" That is in the new FOL, isn't it? Indeed, "If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise information, a period such as the move of an object took place somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial projection of the move and Europe but my information system couldn't actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the declarative place of the spatial projection is" We should be aware that "approximation" has no equivalent in FOL. It has a quality, which can be formalized by metrics. If you have some background knowledge in topology, you may be familiar with the respective concepts. Automatically, the intersection of all yi, i=1...n of P7(x,yi) constitutes the best approximation. Best, Martin On 10/20/2022 3:12 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Sorry, second attempt: According to Christian-Emil's homework for issue 606, the reason to avoid the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was that it might create problems in hypothetical information systems that are clever enough to traverse the graph created by all P89 statements but not clever enough to not fill themselves up with large amounts of deduced P7 statements. If we accept this argument, do we still regard P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) as true based on the semantics of P7 and P89? Or do we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be true or inferrable for all z between the spatial projection and y? If the latter: If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise information, a period such as the move of an object took place somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial projection of the move and Europe but my information system couldn't actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the declarative place of the spatial projection is? Am 20.10.2022 um 13:56 schrieb Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig <mailto:crm-sig@ics.forth.gr>: Quick question: According to Christian-Emil's homework for issue 606, the reason to avoid the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was that it might create problems in hypothetical information systems that are clever enough to traverse the graph created by all P89 statements but not clever enough to not fill themselves up with large amounts of deduced P7 statements. If we accept this argument, do we still assume that P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) is true based on the semantics of P7 and P89? Or do we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be inferrable for all z the spatial projection and y? If the latter: If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise information, an object is located (or the move of an object took place) somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial projection and Europe but my information system couldn't actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the declarative place of the sp
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Dear Wolfgang, I regard that the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was never true, and following the decision of the last SIG it does no more appear. The oral explanation in the SIG that is causes a useless recursion through the world was just an indication that it was nonsensical from the beginning. In my understanding, it was a confusion taking an inverse shortcut for a shortcut. In my understanding, and actual scholarly practice, P7 expresses a reasonable, NOT arbitrarily large, outer /approximation/ of the place where something happened. The narrower the better. Indeed, "we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be true or inferrable for all z between the spatial projection and y" That is in the new FOL, isn't it? Indeed, "If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise information, a period such as the move of an object took place somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial projection of the move and Europe but my information system couldn't actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the declarative place of the spatial projection is" We should be aware that "approximation" has no equivalent in FOL. It has a quality, which can be formalized by /metrics/. If you have some background knowledge in topology, you may be familiar with the respective concepts. Automatically, the intersection of all yi, i=1...n of P7(x,yi) constitutes the best approximation. Best, Martin On 10/20/2022 3:12 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Sorry, second attempt: According to Christian-Emil's homework for issue 606, the reason to avoid the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was that it might create problems in hypothetical information systems that are clever enough to traverse the graph created by all P89 statements but not clever enough to not fill themselves up with large amounts of deduced P7 statements. If we accept this argument, do we still regard P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) as true based on the semantics of P7 and P89? Or do we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be true or inferrable for all z between the spatial projection and y? If the latter: If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise information, a period such as the move of an object took place somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial projection of the move and Europe but my information system couldn't actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the declarative place of the spatial projection is? Am 20.10.2022 um 13:56 schrieb Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig: Quick question: According to Christian-Emil's homework for issue 606, the reason to avoid the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was that it might create problems in hypothetical information systems that are clever enough to traverse the graph created by all P89 statements but not clever enough to not fill themselves up with large amounts of deduced P7 statements. If we accept this argument, do we still assume that P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) is true based on the semantics of P7 and P89? Or do we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be inferrable for all z the spatial projection and y? If the latter: If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise information, an object is located (or the move of an object took place) somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial projection and Europe but my information system couldn't actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the declarative place of the spatial projection is? Best, Wolfgang ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Is P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) still regarded as true?
Sorry, second attempt: According to Christian-Emil's homework for issue 606, the reason to avoid the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was that it might create problems in hypothetical information systems that are clever enough to traverse the graph created by all P89 statements but not clever enough to not fill themselves up with large amounts of deduced P7 statements. If we accept this argument, do we still regard P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) as true based on the semantics of P7 and P89? Or do we now say that we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard only the statements P7(x,z) to be true or inferrable for all z between the spatial projection and y? If the latter: If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking more precise information, a period such as the move of an object took place somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places between the spatial projection of the move and Europe but my information system couldn't actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the declarative place of the spatial projection is? > Am 20.10.2022 um 13:56 schrieb Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig > : > > Quick question: According to Christian-Emil's homework for issue 606, the > reason to avoid the statement P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ P7(x,z) was that it might > create problems in hypothetical information systems that are clever enough to > traverse the graph created by all P89 statements but not clever enough to not > fill themselves up with large amounts of deduced P7 statements. > > If we accept this argument, do we still assume that P7(x,y) ∧ P89(y,z) ⇒ > P7(x,z) is true based on the semantics of P7 and P89? Or do we now say that > we need to have an explicit statement that x was within a place y and regard > only the statements P7(x,z) to be inferrable for all z the spatial projection > and y? > > If the latter: If I have a statement in my information system that, lacking > more precise information, an object is located (or the move of an object took > place) somewhere in Europe, is P7 then automatically true for all places > between the spatial projection and Europe but my information system couldn't > actually infer any additional P7 statement because it doesn't know where the > declarative place of the spatial projection is? > > Best, > Wolfgang > > > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
