Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
Nicolas Weeger wrote: Hello. I'd almost rather just have the server dump all those to the messages file, and then go through and so some cleanup. We need a way to generate messages from the archetypes, though, so when archetypes change we don't forget to update messages. I agree. Unfortunately, a lot of the messages that are generated automatically from archetypes look like they are automatically generated. Maybe just a better function for writing the descriptions is needed - I think right now it just calls something like describe_object(), which works fine for describe stuff in your inventory, but doesn't look that great when describing monsters in books. An interesting effect of giving each message a unique identifier is one could use that to track literacy. One shouldn't really get experience for reading the same message, even if just found in a dungeon. Likewise, there really shouldn't be anything that prevents a player from giving/trading something they read to someone else, and that new person getting exp. But that is currently not allowed because otherwise the same player could read it 100 times and get 100 times the exp. If you know if the character has read that message, they could only get the exp once, and giving it to someone else would only be useful if they haven't read it. Why not. But then we'll need *many* things to read, to level up. Literacy skill rebalance is still needed. There are many areas where it is broken (including no/few high level books, so literacy effectively gets capped at some point. But maybe that is reasonable). If we know roughly how many unique messages there are in the game, one could use that to balance it. Lets suppose there are 2,000 unique messages in the game. If we also make the assumption that level 20 is about as high as you can go in literacy, that averages to 100/level. Of course, the character isn't going to find every message in the game, some may not get max exp (characters literacy is higher level than the book he is reading). But you could perhaps say based on that criteria that 20 unique readables should amount to a level, and thus set the exp on that basis. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
Obviously real maps would be the best solution. However, I think the random map generator does a fair job, specially on the multi-level dungeons; IMHO the different Scorn quest maps turn out nice and exciting. The fact that it does as reasonable a job as it does means that it might be worth putting a bit of effort into enhancing it... Then maybe a base map, with random books and such? Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
I think we have sort of learned over time that coding in such solutions tends to lack flexibility we generally desire, or don't give as good results as we might hope. We could certainly have script based text garbling, but having it do it so that it doesn't look like something that was script based would be hard. Randomly replace a word by random letters, with the same length. That'd do the trick, no? I don't think this is a pure client solution. That's just my thought. It's never really clear where the split between client and server is. But my thought is something like this: On the server side, there is something like a folio object which characters can put all those different notes into. Perhaps there is even code to see if the character already has a copy of that message. This could basically be just a container object with some special handling. On the client side, it perhaps brings up a window which shows everything in the follow, so you can quickly read through it. Maybe in the form of a book which you just page through. Then let's find a volunteer to code that server side, and implement client-side too :) Ideally, each written note would have a title, so there could be a table of contents. Things like 'Dungeons of the Deserts', 'Monsters of the Southern Forests', 'Characteristics of Ogres', etc. I'd add options for the client to manipulate stuff around. And also to copy items to give to other people - if you have paper, and if you have writing, the higher the level the lower the probability to make copy mistakes. While this could perhaps all be handled on the client (when you read something, it automatically records that information in a file), that doesn't seem ideal. The information we are talking about here is really character information - while there is nothing that prevents one from sharing this knowledge, I just don't think it would be a good user experience that if you switched to a different client (or perhaps same client running on a different machine), you've suddenly lost all that information. Sure, server side. We'd need a way to identify uniquely a message, though, which I'm not sure is something we already have. Messages randomly generated, and also messages from /lib/messages Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
Nicolas Weeger wrote: I think we have sort of learned over time that coding in such solutions tends to lack flexibility we generally desire, or don't give as good results as we might hope. We could certainly have script based text garbling, but having it do it so that it doesn't look like something that was script based would be hard. Randomly replace a word by random letters, with the same length. That'd do the trick, no? Yeah, but as said, that looks likely script based garbling. In a more real sense, if the character is not literate enough, they might not understand the message or in fact misread it. And randomly replacing some words may not do much - you could probably replace a fair number of words with the message still being perfectly clear to the end user. Ideally, each written note would have a title, so there could be a table of contents. Things like 'Dungeons of the Deserts', 'Monsters of the Southern Forests', 'Characteristics of Ogres', etc. I'd add options for the client to manipulate stuff around. And also to copy items to give to other people - if you have paper, and if you have writing, the higher the level the lower the probability to make copy mistakes. I agree - one should be able to copy notes. That said, the starting difficulty of the message would have a high degree on the literacy level of the copied message (at some point, you can only dumb something down so much without it losing most of its meaning) While this could perhaps all be handled on the client (when you read something, it automatically records that information in a file), that doesn't seem ideal. The information we are talking about here is really character information - while there is nothing that prevents one from sharing this knowledge, I just don't think it would be a good user experience that if you switched to a different client (or perhaps same client running on a different machine), you've suddenly lost all that information. Sure, server side. We'd need a way to identify uniquely a message, though, which I'm not sure is something we already have. Messages randomly generated, and also messages from /lib/messages I'm really not sure how much we should keep the randomly generated messages - I think that may have been a method to have a reasonable base of messages, but with most randomly generated stuff, it figuring out the occurence and difficulty of messages isn't great. I'd almost rather just have the server dump all those to the messages file, and then go through and so some cleanup. We don't have any way to uniquely identify a message. There are different ways this could be done - a 256 bit hash of the message contents would do a good enough job, but that leaves you with a value that is fairly meaningless to look at (and if you fix a typo in the message, that no longer identifies that as the same message) If we gave titles to each message, you could use that - however, who is to say you might not want several things of the same title? Best would probably be to make a unique identifier in the messages file, that could be named to give some clue, but also be made differently (book_of_monsters1, book_of_monsters2). An interesting effect of giving each message a unique identifier is one could use that to track literacy. One shouldn't really get experience for reading the same message, even if just found in a dungeon. Likewise, there really shouldn't be anything that prevents a player from giving/trading something they read to someone else, and that new person getting exp. But that is currently not allowed because otherwise the same player could read it 100 times and get 100 times the exp. If you know if the character has read that message, they could only get the exp once, and giving it to someone else would only be useful if they haven't read it. This could almost be used to create real libraries within the game :) ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
Nicolas Weeger wrote: I'd rather see real maps. The random map generator (which I did) was mostly supposed to compensate a lack of maps. If people do make maps for all houses, then the plugin isn't useful anymore :) Obviously real maps would be the best solution. However, I think the random map generator does a fair job, specially on the multi-level dungeons; IMHO the different Scorn quest maps turn out nice and exciting. The fact that it does as reasonable a job as it does means that it might be worth putting a bit of effort into enhancing it... -- /* * * Otto J. Makela o...@iki.fi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */ /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, FAX: +358 42 7655772, ICBM: 60N 25E */ /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki, FINLAND */ /* * * Computers Rule 0100 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * */ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
If one were to go on this logic,than for any given message, it would be reasonable for what the player sees to vary based on literacy. I was thinking of script-based text garbling, actually, but your approach works too. I do agree that some way for the player to handle/deal with these messages would be nice. I use to resort to copying information down in another window, but that takes things out of the game experience. One could imagine something like a special folio object that holds all these - the issue is still how to present them to the user. Client issue that can be fixed. Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
A segue to something that has bothered me a bit: there are no longer any closed houses in Scorn, having been replaced with randomly generated ones. However, there is not much point in visiting them, as they are only single- level places with the randomly-generated paraphernalia. If you are very lucky, there might be a treasure room or some such, but otherwise they are fairly pointless: no monsters on the first level, nothing to do, nothing to see... How about someone working a bit on the generator, for example have the ubiquitous bookshelves actually occasionally contain something useful? I'd rather see real maps. The random map generator (which I did) was mostly supposed to compensate a lack of maps. If people do make maps for all houses, then the plugin isn't useful anymore :) Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
It seems these kinds of ideas are good, though I'm not to sure about wrong information without some not insanely hard to find way to validate wrong data. Of the listed ideas, the first seems most likely to enhance play. The last seems reasonable, though perhaps better done by having the missing pieces completed as a related quest progresses as though the player is rediscovering the history through the act of digging through and using this partial story data. Validating wrong data is easy - go to the place, see there is no entrance, go somewhere else :) Without really claiming to have a vision of how to pull it off, perhaps the wrong/partial ideas could be supplemented by a mechanism by which a player can actually accumulate the stories client side for perusal in more of a book fashion instead of the encumbering NPC communication model. I think that the lore and quests in this game are hard to handle because there is no practical way for a player to manage the information in more than a piecemeal fashion. Adding wrong and partial stories seems like it could go the wrong way if something was not done to balance it out. Well, for one, players do have a brain, and they could use to remember the stories :) Writing sufficently fun stories would make it worth remembering them, IMO. Though a good solution could indeed be to have client-side recording. Pieces of stories could have identifier tags of some kind that would allow them to be fit together into a document on the client. Wrong information could have the same tag as good information - causing the player to have to decide which one was right when both were found. I'd rather have the player organize tidbits herself. No point in saying exactly what story a piece of text refers to, IMO. Agree that wrong information is more realistic in some sense, but am reluctant to get too realistic in this regard as it can frustrate rather than improve the player experience. This game is based on a fantastic world rather than a realistic one. So? Fantastic prevents wrong/distorded information? :) As long as the searching itself is fun, it should be ok, I think. Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
Mark Wedel wrote: There is the lib/messages file, which will be used for random readables that show up in dungeons. However, the current instance of readables (nonmagical scrolls, books, etc) is pretty low. And even if one is generated, it could contain info about alchemy, monsters, spells, etc. And it can also have a high literacy rate requirement. A segue to something that has bothered me a bit: there are no longer any closed houses in Scorn, having been replaced with randomly generated ones. However, there is not much point in visiting them, as they are only single- level places with the randomly-generated paraphernalia. If you are very lucky, there might be a treasure room or some such, but otherwise they are fairly pointless: no monsters on the first level, nothing to do, nothing to see... How about someone working a bit on the generator, for example have the ubiquitous bookshelves actually occasionally contain something useful? -- /* * * Otto J. Makela o...@iki.fi * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */ /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, FAX: +358 42 7655772, ICBM: 60N 25E */ /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki, FINLAND */ /* * * Computers Rule 0100 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * */ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
I was thinking about this some more, and had some other ideas. If one thinks about it, even someone not very literate can still read something - he isn't going to read a college level physics book, but could read a newspaper perhaps. If one were to go on this logic,than for any given message, it would be reasonable for what the player sees to vary based on literacy. For example: Level 5 (max requirement for this message): On the far eastern shore of the continent, at the tip of a penisula, there is a tower with many diabolical beasts. At the top of this tower is Solinter, a powerful spell casting creature. Level 4: On the far eastern shore, at the tip of land, there is a tower with monsters. At the top of this tower, there is a nasty monster. Level 3, 2 ommitted for brevity. Level 1: On the far eastern shore of this land is a tower with many monsters I suppose in those messages one would have to prefix them with something like You don't understand most/some/a little of the message, but this is what you understand from it In this way, even if a character does not have sufficient literacy, they can still get some of the message. I like this also in that it at least gives you some idea if the book/scroll/whatever has any information that would be useful to you. One might say I've already been in that tower and killed everything there, so this book isn't useful However, to do this would require extension of the message file (or the msg fields) to note the different level requirements. I do agree that some way for the player to handle/deal with these messages would be nice. I use to resort to copying information down in another window, but that takes things out of the game experience. One could imagine something like a special folio object that holds all these - the issue is still how to present them to the user. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
[crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
Hello. How would one integrate old (as some hundred years old) in-game stories in the gameplay flow? Right now, we have kind of the Know-It-All sage who will conveniently know everything of things that happened hundred years ago, without any mistake or such. Things I could envision: - old manuscripts, in languages a player would need to learn to decipher - wrong (plain or slightly mistaken) things around, to have the player try to figure what to trust - partial stories only, leaving the rest to deduction. Opinions? :) Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.org [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] How to integrate old stories in the game?
Nicolas Weeger wrote: Hello. How would one integrate old (as some hundred years old) in-game stories in the gameplay flow? Right now, we have kind of the Know-It-All sage who will conveniently know everything of things that happened hundred years ago, without any mistake or such. There is the lib/messages file, which will be used for random readables that show up in dungeons. However, the current instance of readables (nonmagical scrolls, books, etc) is pretty low. And even if one is generated, it could contain info about alchemy, monsters, spells, etc. And it can also have a high literacy rate requirement. Things I could envision: - old manuscripts, in languages a player would need to learn to decipher One could sort of say that the literacy skill, as is, might represent that. I'd be a little reluctant to make it even harder to find useful information in readable books. - wrong (plain or slightly mistaken) things around, to have the player try to figure what to trust That seems completely reasonable to me. The likelihood of someone precisely recording information would be remote. - partial stories only, leaving the rest to deduction. That is also good - but perhaps more for oral messages (the sage/random folks in taverns). Having folks with random tidbits of information may make it more likely to actually talk to folks. Certainly more game information would be a good thing. The messages file could certainly be better - more like the artifacts file so that instead of just having messages, one could assign likelihood of different messages showing up (there could very well be complete and accurate copies of information around, but quite rare), as well as literacy requirements. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
