Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
Yann Chachkoff wrote: Le samedi 4 août 2007, Kevin R. Bulgrien a écrit : Hmm... So then the mumbler was really just detracting from my feeble attempts to work on fixing what I felt like moaning about. Ok... I get it. Just as a side note, my original comment was about underlining the (IMO) terrible layout of the GTK1 client, one that the GTK2 adaptation didn't make any better. Or, to speak using other terms: - no, it wasn't a free ad for jxclient; - yes, it meant that regardless of the toolkit used, I found the UI cluttered and unfriendly. Does that mean it shouldn't be fixed ? Of course not. It simply meant that IMHO mimicking the GTK1 client UI didn't fix anything. But for whatever reason, it seems a lot of people like the gtk1 client layout, which is why that client still exists and hasn't been completely replaced by the gtk2 client. So since a gtk1 layout for the gtk2 client does now exist, it would seem that once that all gets formalized and set up, there really isn't any reason that the gtk1 client couldn't get removed - people would no longer be able to say I don't like that layout, if in fact the layout is the same. And removing that client is one less thing to support, so I think that is all good. Now maybe we just need an old X11 layout for gtk2, and then we can get rid of that client also :) ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
But for whatever reason, it seems a lot of people like the gtk1 client layout, which is why that client still exists and hasn't been completely replaced by the gtk2 client. So since a gtk1 layout for the gtk2 client does now exist, it would seem that once that all gets formalized and set up, there really isn't any reason that the gtk1 client couldn't get removed - people would no longer be able to say I don't like that layout, if in fact the layout is the same. And removing that client is one less thing to support, so I think that is all good. Now maybe we just need an old X11 layout for gtk2, and then we can get rid of that client also :) But for whatever reason, it seems a lot of people like the gtk1 client layout, which is why that client still exists and hasn't been completely replaced by the gtk2 client. So since a gtk1 layout for the gtk2 client does now exist, it would seem that once that all gets formalized and set up, there really isn't any reason that the gtk1 client couldn't get removed - people would no longer be able to say I don't like that layout, if in fact the layout is the same. And removing that client is one less thing to support, so I think that is all good. I don't know the build tools enough to know how to integrate what I have yet. I'd like to look at libglade so it wasn't a matter of building multiple binaries, but that will take time if I can keep up the interest. In the mean time, do I check in what I have even though it is awkward to build? I think it should be available if only to generate interest or feedback. Right now I have my projects in gtk-v2/glade. In there I have a script called cp2src.sh that puts the built files in gtk-v2/src so that make; make install will build one, but that doesn't make the binary a different name or anything. I can make a Makefile do a make in the gtk-v2/glade directory that did a make in gtk-v2 and renamed the binary, but it seems clunky and I haven't done anything with automake and friends so don't really know what to do to set it up to build all the various binaries automagically. Do you care if I check in something like that in a gtk-v2/glade subdirectory, or should it be alongside gtk-v2 instead of subordinate to it? Now maybe we just need an old X11 layout for gtk2, and then we can get rid of that client also :) That almost makes me want to fire it up for sake of the memories... Wasn't it kind of greenish or something? Hey, when it comes down to it, it is the game... not the client that holds people... isn't it? Though the client helps get more people on board I guess. I still miss the dxclient at times, but I also remember the screen was cramped... and I played GTK1 in favor of it with the guy next to me playing the dxclient with mood music so I could get the best of both worlds. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
http://krayvin.home.att.net/gtk2_gtk-v1_layout.png Am I the only one finding this interface rather scary and cluttered by tons of stuff ? Nope :) IMO both the GTK clients are too geeky... jxclient seems much better, from my point of view. Nicolas Yeah... whatever... at least GTK clients are easily built. I'd try this so-called super awesome, non-geekified jxclient if I had a clue where to get a jar or how to build it, but maybe it is too good for the playing masses and we couldn't handle it? And for crying out loud, it doesn't even get honorable mention on the Crossfire web site. I pulled down ant (87 MB with deps), and still didn't have a clue where to go from there. For now, I'll stick with using a geeky client rather than none at all. What's with java projects anyway? Gridarta doesn't release jars, I don't see one for jxclient. You have to get them off-project. I guess if you're not in, you're out. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
Yeah... whatever... at least GTK clients are easily built. I'd try this so-called super awesome, non-geekified jxclient if I had a clue where to get a jar or how to build it, but maybe it is too good for the playing masses and we couldn't handle it? And for crying out loud, it doesn't even get honorable mention on the Crossfire web site. jxclient was (is probably still) considered experimental (no map2 support, I think) since not so long ago (a few days/weeks), so yes it isn't mentioned. But even in its current state I much prefer the interface :) (your mileage may vary, of course) And I suggest you do a small experiment: find a Windows computer, and try to build the GTK1 client there :) You'll see it isn't that easy ^_- (and I'm not even sure it does work on Macs...) I pulled down ant (87 MB with deps), and still didn't have a clue where to go from there. For now, I'll stick with using a geeky client rather than none at all. cd to jxclient directory, then 'ant' to build it. Then 'java -jar jxclient.jar' to run it (full screen mode by default, add -N to make it windowed). What's with java projects anyway? Gridarta doesn't release jars, I don't see one for jxclient. You have to get them off-project. I guess if you're not in, you're out. See first point, experimental. But I do hope it'll soon be in good shape, thanks to Ragnor's work, and usable :) Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.free.fr [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] pgphihdFsZK5r.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
Kevin R. Bulgrien wrote: Yeah... whatever... at least GTK clients are easily built. I'd try this so-called super awesome, non-geekified jxclient if I had a clue where to get a jar or how to build it, but maybe it is too good for the playing masses and we couldn't handle it? And for crying out loud, it doesn't even get honorable mention on the Crossfire web site. There is a simple reason it is not advertised on the web site: the client is still in development. You are able to connect to a server and actually play the game, but some gui elements do not yet work (click on an element and nothing happens), and error handling is almost absent (failure to connect to server, or have the connection break == client just exits). Also, it still runs quite slowly on machines without hardware accelerated graphics operations -- in fact, currently you basically cannot play on such machines... That said, I do not yet consider jxclient to be in a state to be released as a pre-compiled client intended to be run by normal players. Therefore I currently do neither advertise it nor provide pre-compiled binaries. I pulled down ant (87 MB with deps), and still didn't have a clue where to go from there. Thanks for pointing out this issue. I've now added a few lines to the README file about how to compile the client. Basically: run ant in the jxclient directory. This creates the file jxclient.jar. Run this file as java -jar jxclient.jar. For now, I'll stick with using a geeky client rather than none at all. Better yet: figure out how to make it work, then fix the documentation;) Or at least file a bug report so somebody else can fix it. Just declining and not telling anything does not enable us to fix issues... What's with java projects anyway? Gridarta doesn't release jars, I don't see one for jxclient. You have to get them off-project. I guess if you're not in, you're out. For Gridarta it is for the same reason: the project has started from the sources of both the Crossfire and the Daimonin Java map editors. They did share a common code base but have been developed separately for quite a while. Gridarta's goal was to merge both code bases to bundle the development resources of both projects, effectively helping both projects. We decided not to officially release binaries for Gridarta because we thought the editors might be (very) unstable during the merging process. Until today, the merging is still in progress (see http://gridarta.sourceforge.net/dev/mergeStats). To the off-site download place: It was introduced because some people couldn't compile the editor. (In fact, I did compile Gridarta for eracc. He then figured that it could be helpful for other to get at the pre-compiled editor as well, so he hade it available on his site.) As far as I know, currently all people who are (semi-)actively using the editor can compile it from the sources. Now, creating a new release takes me at least 30 minutes. Therefore I prefer spending this time into code improvements. That means I update the pre-compiled binary only very infrequently (less than once per month, almost always only when somebody complains that it is way outdated...) That said, even though we do not yet provide pre-compiled binaries for jxclient or Gridarta, feedback is always highly welcome. Both feedback about what needs to be improved/changed/implemented to make the application actually useful, and feedback about bugs/crashes/etc. Even feedback that you just use it without problems is useful (since it might accelerate further development ;)). ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
And I suggest you do a small experiment: find a Windows computer, and try to build the GTK1 client there :) You'll see it isn't that easy ^_- (and I'm not even sure it does work on Macs...) What is windows? Is it something i can afford to care about? ;-/ I pulled down ant (87 MB with deps), and still didn't have a clue where to go from there. For now, I'll stick with using a geeky client rather than none at all. cd to jxclient directory, then 'ant' to build it. Then 'java -jar jxclient.jar' to run it (full screen mode by default, add -N to make it windowed). $ pwd /home/data/svn/crossfire/jxclient [EMAIL PROTECTED] jxclient]$ ant Exception in thread main java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/tools/ant/launch/Launcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] jxclient]$ cd trunk/com/realtime/crossfire/jxclient/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] jxclient]$ ant Exception in thread main java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/tools/ant/launch/Launcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] jxclient]$ cd ../../../../../trunk/src/test/com/realtime/crossfire/jxclient/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] jxclient]$ ant Exception in thread main java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/apache/tools/ant/launch/Launcher Not that easy... Tried that already. What's with java projects anyway? Gridarta doesn't release jars, I don't see one for jxclient. You have to get them off-project. I guess if you're not in, you're out. See first point, experimental. But I do hope it'll soon be in good shape, thanks to Ragnor's work, and usable :) Nicolas ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
Le samedi 4 août 2007, Kevin R. Bulgrien a écrit : Hmm... So then the mumbler was really just detracting from my feeble attempts to work on fixing what I felt like moaning about. Ok... I get it. Just as a side note, my original comment was about underlining the (IMO) terrible layout of the GTK1 client, one that the GTK2 adaptation didn't make any better. Or, to speak using other terms: - no, it wasn't a free ad for jxclient; - yes, it meant that regardless of the toolkit used, I found the UI cluttered and unfriendly. Does that mean it shouldn't be fixed ? Of course not. It simply meant that IMHO mimicking the GTK1 client UI didn't fix anything. Nope, that make huge assumptions. All I get is an exception when I do that. On the other client, it has ./configure that has a chance of showing me maybe I don't have all the requirements installed, which I suppose has something to do with ant croaking when I try to start it. If you had spent two minutes googling about it, you'd have found that this message was caused by a badly installed/configured ant, and not by a problem in jxfire's building process. Reference (amongst several others): http://ant.apache.org/faq.html#NoClassDefFoundError With a badly installed/configured C toolchain, you'd just get the same kind of failure with ./configure. Don't blame the SVN content for a problem in your own building chain. Just my two €-cents. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
Le vendredi 3 août 2007, Kevin R. Bulgrien a écrit : Here's a layout that is pretty close to the gtk-v1 client. snip http://krayvin.home.att.net/gtk2_gtk-v1_layout.png Am I the only one finding this interface rather scary and cluttered by tons of stuff ? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] GTK2-v2 Client new layout defined (gtk-v1)
http://krayvin.home.att.net/gtk2_gtk-v1_layout.png Am I the only one finding this interface rather scary and cluttered by tons of stuff ? Nope :) IMO both the GTK clients are too geeky... jxclient seems much better, from my point of view. Nicolas -- http://nicolas.weeger.free.fr [Petit site d'images, de textes, de code, bref de l'aléatoire !] pgpC1laj5fhN5.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
