Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Fletcher Dunn]

Steam datagram relay is currently only used for servers in our data center.

We are considering routing all Steam P2P traffic over the relay network, and 
that is probably how we would facilitate community servers taking advantage of 
the DoS protection and IP privacy features.  But there are tradeoffs here, 
because it would mean that the traffic would always be triangulated through at 
least one relay, so there would be some increase in latency -- not because of 
the hop, but because the triangulated route will be a bit slower than the 
direct route in most cases.  For P2P traffic this is probably an acceptable 
tradeoff.  But dedicated server operators might not want to have any increased 
latency, even to get the other benefits.  The extra latency isn’t an issue for 
valve servers, because we put relays directly at our data centers, so the best 
“triangulated” route is never worse than the direct route.

All of this is a long way off, though.  And we’d have to figure out way to make 
server browsing and ping measurement work, etc.

From: csgo_servers-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:csgo_servers-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Marco Padovan
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 5:27 PM
To: csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

Nice analysis, hoping too to see relays available to us

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Ragnos 
<ragnos.utz...@gmail.com<mailto:ragnos.utz...@gmail.com>> wrote:
It's 1am here, so no proof-reading. Cheers folks...

I've experimented a bit with it. I got to the point where srcds actually
listened to incoming proxied traffic (by setting
+sv_steamdatagramtransport_port xy) but the relays won't forward my
connection attempts. You can verify your srcds is configured "correctly"
by checking your "status" printout for the following line:

sdt : =[G:1:n] on port xy

The only issue i found (besides it's not working at all, but thats the
relays "fault") is that the additional SDT port is not respecting the ip
or ip_steam cvars. That port listens to all interfaces, which could
cause problems on multihomed hosts. There are no cvars to control this
behaviour, including hidden cvars. I think that should be fixed by
either go after the "ip" cvar or giving it it's own like it has been
done with ip_tv and ip_tv1 for that additional gotv-instance. I propose
"ip_sdt".

I think the relays have to be configured to acknowledge either certain
gameserver steamid's or predefined ip ranges, since Valve doesn't
applies GSLT restrictions to their own server version. (The clientside
sdt debug logging shows their servers run anonymous SteamID's) Steam
already knows which steamid belongs to which ip:port, it has to be the
relay then.

If Valve want's to use SDT globally, there are only two ways to do so:
Option one would be routing every single bit of traffic from and to
community servers through their clusters. That means HUGE amounts of
traffic, way to inefficient, no way they are doing that. Also, ping
times and overall networking quality to everything else than Valve
servers would most likely get worse because the routing would be
optimized for their own data centers. Option two, obviously, is to give
us access to the relay software. Assuming the relays have to sign in
into steam like srcds, it would be easy to feed the clients with
information about which server is connected to which relay cluster. That
also could replace the current masterserver system and by that the old
server browser, and lays foundation for future changes like IPv6. That
option also suggests we could be able to construct our own relay
clusters to generate some kind of redundancy, just like Valve does.

Wild theory: I think the only reason we can't use SDT with our servers
right now is that valve isn't done with the part where the client get's
the information which relay(cluster) to use with community servers.
Right now it's done via matchmaking, but that won't work for everything
non-valve. With DotA2 they had no need to work on that because there is
no offical community srcds. But then again it was easy to port the
existing DotA2-code over since our matchmaking originates from there.
Would be great to get some kind of confirmation on that from Valve, but
not getting one would match their corporate identity...

**tl;dr:** community srcds is already to able to work with SDT, but
valve's relays just don't want to. imho best and most efficient way to
utilize SDT with community srcds would be to make the software generally
available, feed all needed info from community relays into steam and
back to the clients, and replace the old server browser while you're at
it. Only reason we can't utilize SDT right now is most likely good ol'
"not done yet".

Cheers!
Ragnos

Am 10/18/2016 um 2:23 PM schrieb Marco Padovan:
> I've personally been playing with "multiple ingress points" (nats and
>

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Marco Padovan]

Nice analysis, hoping too to see relays available to us

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Ragnos  wrote:

> It's 1am here, so no proof-reading. Cheers folks...
>
> I've experimented a bit with it. I got to the point where srcds actually
> listened to incoming proxied traffic (by setting
> +sv_steamdatagramtransport_port xy) but the relays won't forward my
> connection attempts. You can verify your srcds is configured "correctly"
> by checking your "status" printout for the following line:
>
> sdt : =[G:1:n] on port xy
>
> The only issue i found (besides it's not working at all, but thats the
> relays "fault") is that the additional SDT port is not respecting the ip
> or ip_steam cvars. That port listens to all interfaces, which could
> cause problems on multihomed hosts. There are no cvars to control this
> behaviour, including hidden cvars. I think that should be fixed by
> either go after the "ip" cvar or giving it it's own like it has been
> done with ip_tv and ip_tv1 for that additional gotv-instance. I propose
> "ip_sdt".
>
> I think the relays have to be configured to acknowledge either certain
> gameserver steamid's or predefined ip ranges, since Valve doesn't
> applies GSLT restrictions to their own server version. (The clientside
> sdt debug logging shows their servers run anonymous SteamID's) Steam
> already knows which steamid belongs to which ip:port, it has to be the
> relay then.
>
> If Valve want's to use SDT globally, there are only two ways to do so:
> Option one would be routing every single bit of traffic from and to
> community servers through their clusters. That means HUGE amounts of
> traffic, way to inefficient, no way they are doing that. Also, ping
> times and overall networking quality to everything else than Valve
> servers would most likely get worse because the routing would be
> optimized for their own data centers. Option two, obviously, is to give
> us access to the relay software. Assuming the relays have to sign in
> into steam like srcds, it would be easy to feed the clients with
> information about which server is connected to which relay cluster. That
> also could replace the current masterserver system and by that the old
> server browser, and lays foundation for future changes like IPv6. That
> option also suggests we could be able to construct our own relay
> clusters to generate some kind of redundancy, just like Valve does.
>
> Wild theory: I think the only reason we can't use SDT with our servers
> right now is that valve isn't done with the part where the client get's
> the information which relay(cluster) to use with community servers.
> Right now it's done via matchmaking, but that won't work for everything
> non-valve. With DotA2 they had no need to work on that because there is
> no offical community srcds. But then again it was easy to port the
> existing DotA2-code over since our matchmaking originates from there.
> Would be great to get some kind of confirmation on that from Valve, but
> not getting one would match their corporate identity...
>
> **tl;dr:** community srcds is already to able to work with SDT, but
> valve's relays just don't want to. imho best and most efficient way to
> utilize SDT with community srcds would be to make the software generally
> available, feed all needed info from community relays into steam and
> back to the clients, and replace the old server browser while you're at
> it. Only reason we can't utilize SDT right now is most likely good ol'
> "not done yet".
>
> Cheers!
> Ragnos
>
> Am 10/18/2016 um 2:23 PM schrieb Marco Padovan:
> > I've personally been playing with "multiple ingress points" (nats and
> > network forwads) many times...
> >
> > They works properly con call of duty/quake3 netcode but they were not
> > working on sourceds netcode...
> >
> > We can provide both the edge servers, and the gameservers themself as
> > long as the game is able to digest NAT / ip forward... having
> > something running natively like valve does on the official servers
> > would be even better.
> >
> > Hoping they will come forward with some details for the general public
> > to set them up too
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:32 AM, wickedplayer494
> > > wrote:
> >
> > The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients
> > connect to Valve's own server network, so for community server
> > operators, it will be irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't
> > affect the server version, so even if the Steam Datagram system
> > was made available to community servers, the relevant commands
> > would not work because of that.
> >
> > On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is
> >> there any documentation out there?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Csgo_servers mailing 

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Ragnos]

It's 1am here, so no proof-reading. Cheers folks...

I've experimented a bit with it. I got to the point where srcds actually
listened to incoming proxied traffic (by setting
+sv_steamdatagramtransport_port xy) but the relays won't forward my
connection attempts. You can verify your srcds is configured "correctly"
by checking your "status" printout for the following line:

sdt : =[G:1:n] on port xy

The only issue i found (besides it's not working at all, but thats the
relays "fault") is that the additional SDT port is not respecting the ip
or ip_steam cvars. That port listens to all interfaces, which could
cause problems on multihomed hosts. There are no cvars to control this
behaviour, including hidden cvars. I think that should be fixed by
either go after the "ip" cvar or giving it it's own like it has been
done with ip_tv and ip_tv1 for that additional gotv-instance. I propose
"ip_sdt".

I think the relays have to be configured to acknowledge either certain
gameserver steamid's or predefined ip ranges, since Valve doesn't
applies GSLT restrictions to their own server version. (The clientside
sdt debug logging shows their servers run anonymous SteamID's) Steam
already knows which steamid belongs to which ip:port, it has to be the
relay then.

If Valve want's to use SDT globally, there are only two ways to do so:
Option one would be routing every single bit of traffic from and to
community servers through their clusters. That means HUGE amounts of
traffic, way to inefficient, no way they are doing that. Also, ping
times and overall networking quality to everything else than Valve
servers would most likely get worse because the routing would be
optimized for their own data centers. Option two, obviously, is to give
us access to the relay software. Assuming the relays have to sign in
into steam like srcds, it would be easy to feed the clients with
information about which server is connected to which relay cluster. That
also could replace the current masterserver system and by that the old
server browser, and lays foundation for future changes like IPv6. That
option also suggests we could be able to construct our own relay
clusters to generate some kind of redundancy, just like Valve does.

Wild theory: I think the only reason we can't use SDT with our servers
right now is that valve isn't done with the part where the client get's
the information which relay(cluster) to use with community servers.
Right now it's done via matchmaking, but that won't work for everything
non-valve. With DotA2 they had no need to work on that because there is
no offical community srcds. But then again it was easy to port the
existing DotA2-code over since our matchmaking originates from there.
Would be great to get some kind of confirmation on that from Valve, but
not getting one would match their corporate identity...

**tl;dr:** community srcds is already to able to work with SDT, but
valve's relays just don't want to. imho best and most efficient way to
utilize SDT with community srcds would be to make the software generally
available, feed all needed info from community relays into steam and
back to the clients, and replace the old server browser while you're at
it. Only reason we can't utilize SDT right now is most likely good ol'
"not done yet".

Cheers!
Ragnos

Am 10/18/2016 um 2:23 PM schrieb Marco Padovan:
> I've personally been playing with "multiple ingress points" (nats and
> network forwads) many times...
>
> They works properly con call of duty/quake3 netcode but they were not
> working on sourceds netcode...
>
> We can provide both the edge servers, and the gameservers themself as
> long as the game is able to digest NAT / ip forward... having
> something running natively like valve does on the official servers
> would be even better.
>
> Hoping they will come forward with some details for the general public
> to set them up too
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:32 AM, wickedplayer494
> > wrote:
>
> The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients
> connect to Valve's own server network, so for community server
> operators, it will be irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't
> affect the server version, so even if the Steam Datagram system
> was made available to community servers, the relevant commands
> would not work because of that.
>
> On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is
>> there any documentation out there?
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Csgo_servers mailing list
>> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
>> 
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>> 
> ___ 

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Marco Padovan]

I've personally been playing with "multiple ingress points" (nats and
network forwads) many times...

They works properly con call of duty/quake3 netcode but they were not
working on sourceds netcode...

We can provide both the edge servers, and the gameservers themself as long
as the game is able to digest NAT / ip forward... having something running
natively like valve does on the official servers would be even better.

Hoping they will come forward with some details for the general public to
set them up too

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:32 AM, wickedplayer494  wrote:

> The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients connect to
> Valve's own server network, so for community server operators, it will be
> irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't affect the server version, so even
> if the Steam Datagram system was made available to community servers, the
> relevant commands would not work because of that.
>
> On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there any
> documentation out there?
>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing 
> listCsgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.comhttps://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing list
> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>
___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Absurd Minds]

That's clearly not true. In the most recent update they even added cvars
for community server operators to be able to run bhop servers natively.
They've done a lot to hurt community servers, but they've also put in a
good bit of time to help them in ways they didn't have to.

On Oct 18, 2016 7:32 AM, "Hasser Css"  wrote:

> Have you forgotten that Valve wants to kill all 3rd-party server providers?
>
> To them, "all games of CSGO" simply means "all of *Valve's* server
> instances".
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Absurd Minds 
> wrote:
>
>> The update said all games of csgo would soon utilize this feature. Are
>> you sure valve misspoke when they said that?
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2016 4:34 AM, "wickedplayer494" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients connect to
>>> Valve's own server network, so for community server operators, it will be
>>> irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't affect the server version, so even
>>> if the Steam Datagram system was made available to community servers, the
>>> relevant commands would not work because of that.
>>>
>>> On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there
>>> any documentation out there?
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Csgo_servers mailing 
>>> listCsgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.comhttps://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Csgo_servers mailing list
>>> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Csgo_servers mailing list
>> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>>
>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing list
> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>
___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Hasser Css]

Have you forgotten that Valve wants to kill all 3rd-party server providers?

To them, "all games of CSGO" simply means "all of *Valve's* server
instances".

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Absurd Minds 
wrote:

> The update said all games of csgo would soon utilize this feature. Are you
> sure valve misspoke when they said that?
>
> On Oct 18, 2016 4:34 AM, "wickedplayer494" 
> wrote:
>
>> The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients connect to
>> Valve's own server network, so for community server operators, it will be
>> irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't affect the server version, so even
>> if the Steam Datagram system was made available to community servers, the
>> relevant commands would not work because of that.
>>
>> On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there any
>> documentation out there?
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Csgo_servers mailing 
>> listCsgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.comhttps://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Csgo_servers mailing list
>> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing list
> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>
___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Absurd Minds]

The update said all games of csgo would soon utilize this feature. Are you
sure valve misspoke when they said that?

On Oct 18, 2016 4:34 AM, "wickedplayer494" 
wrote:

> The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients connect to
> Valve's own server network, so for community server operators, it will be
> irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't affect the server version, so even
> if the Steam Datagram system was made available to community servers, the
> relevant commands would not work because of that.
>
> On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there any
> documentation out there?
>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing 
> listCsgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.comhttps://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing list
> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>
___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Christos Sarantis]

is there any documentation on these update releases? last one i see at
counter-strike.net is the inferno update 13/10/2016

2016-10-18 11:32 GMT+03:00 wickedplayer494 :

> The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients connect to
> Valve's own server network, so for community server operators, it will be
> irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't affect the server version, so even
> if the Steam Datagram system was made available to community servers, the
> relevant commands would not work because of that.
>
> On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there any
> documentation out there?
>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing 
> listCsgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.comhttps://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>
>
> ___
> Csgo_servers mailing list
> Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
>



-- 
Christos Sarantis
web: https://sarantis.pw
mail: i...@sarantis.pw
phone: 6982531957
___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[wickedplayer494]

The Steam Datagram relay system only deals with how clients connect to 
Valve's own server network, so for community server operators, it will 
be irrelevant. Also, today's update didn't affect the server version, so 
even if the Steam Datagram system was made available to community 
servers, the relevant commands would not work because of that.


On 10/18/2016 3:07 AM, Marco Padovan wrote:


Hi,

How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there 
any documentation out there?




___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers
___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers

Re: [Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Левинчук Федор]

Hihow to get this update with datagram relays?https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/580lxa/steam_datagram_relay_beta/?st=iuf7m6nl=bdc5ade5steamdatagram_client_statusUnknown command "steamdatagram_client_status"net_client_steamdatagram_enable_overrideUnknown command "net_client_steamdatagram_enable_override"18.10.2016, 11:09, "Marco Padovan" : Hi, How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there any documentation out there? , ___ Csgo_servers mailing list Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers

[Csgo_servers] Steam datagram relay

[Marco Padovan]

Hi,

How can we setup steam datagram relays on community servers? Is there any
documentation out there?
___
Csgo_servers mailing list
Csgo_servers@list.valvesoftware.com
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/csgo_servers