Re: [css-d] Could browsers miss CSS declarations?

2008-05-06 Thread Jukka K. Korpela
Usamah al-Amin wrote:

 Browsers usually miss downloading images, due to some network issues.

Usually is a strong word, but I guess you are referring to some 
particular browsing conditions.

 But I've never come to see browsers miss interpreting CSS
 declarations. Is that, technically speaking, possible?

It surely is. Check the CSS Caveats:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/css-caveats.html

Maybe I should add a caveat which is very important though self-evident 
to experienced authors:

Browsers may ignore CSS constructs that violate CSS syntax, and they 
_must_ do so according to certain rules. Even a tiny typo can be 
essential.

 The most
 obvious example in my head is CSS background colors. Lets say this CSS
 style rule is declared on a web page:

 body {
  background: #dedede url(header.jpg) no-repeat top center;
 }

Is there a URL for a page that has such a rule and fails to render the 
background color?

 It could very possibly to miss downloading the header image, but could
 it possible to miss applying the background color (#dedede) for some
 odd reason?

Well, the background setting could be overriden by some other style 
sheet, or it might have no visible effect if everything in body is 
inside an element with a background color of its own, etc.

But I don't think a browser could just casually fail to render the 
background color for a reason comparable to failure to use background 
image because it is not available due to network congestion, for 
example. If the style sheet is external, the browser might fail to get 
it _at all_.

Jukka K. Korpela (Yucca)
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/ 

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Re: [css-d] Could browsers miss CSS declarations?

2008-05-06 Thread Kathy Wheeler

On 06/05/2008, at 5:45 PM, Usamah al-Amin wrote:
 body {
  background: #dedede url(header.jpg) no-repeat top center;
 }

 It could very possibly to miss downloading the header image, but could
 it possible to miss applying the background color (#dedede) for some
 odd reason?


Check to make sure any css declarations that appear before the one in  
question are properly terminated. A missing semicolon ( ; ) or  
missing curly brace ( } ) could easily prevent the rest of the sheet  
from being parsed.

Or if the hex for the RBG color values is missing a character (typo)  
it could mess the color up completely. Similarly look out for case  
mis-matching with file names on servers with the image name, and make  
sure you're 100% sure of the path to the css file.

If the body declaration is at the top of the style sheet and  
everything is syntactically correct  I'd be suspicious that the style  
sheet itself is not loading - which usually comes back to path or  
filename mismatch issues.

Again this is only speculation without a live URL to check ...

Good luck,
KathyW.
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Re: [css-d] Trouble with positioning

2008-05-06 Thread Jonathan Pulley
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Yeah i think that does fix it. Ill take a look at the code somemore when 
i get to work but i opened it up on my wifes windows machine and it 
looks the same. Thanks a lot! I figured i needed to use floats but i was 
having trouble with getting them right so i started using absolute 
positioning and it was working so i went with it and then checked the 
other browsers and i was like dang...

David Laakso wrote:
| Jonathan Pulley wrote:
|
| I am redesigning my site and ive got the front layout pretty much 
like i want it when displayed in Mozilla Firefox on Linux but when 
viewed on Windows in either IE or Firefox its all messed up.
| Site: http://dev-whiteguardian.whiteguardian.net/
| CSS: http://dev-whiteguardian.whiteguardian.net/css/layout.css
|
|   
|
|
|
|
| Structural layout positioning is best left to using floats. Once that 
structure is established, absolute positioning of elements within the 
base structure is often  easily achieved.  At this point, though, I 
think just using floats may resolve the problem cross-browser for your 
layout: perhaps,  something like this...
| http://www.chelseacreekstudio.com/ca/cssd/b.html
|
|
|
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFIIEIAr6JzES8lQK0RAjetAKDGpDLapX7NWnYpODxKctxdxCapjACgrWZS
0Alz1LtBQs0J2vrQan9TtsA=
=7frL
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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[css-d] Expandable Divs

2008-05-06 Thread Chang Huang
Hi all,

I have a situation where 2 divs are sitting next to each other (floated 
left and right), sometime the right div is not required and it is not 
shown, is it possible for the left div to take over that place left by 
the right div?

Thanks.
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[css-d] HTML source editing in textarea for RTL languages

2008-05-06 Thread Lensco
Here's an issue that's been puzzling my mind for a few days: How do
speakers of RTL languages use an online HTML source editor?

Take this example: http://lensco.be/lensco.be/test/html_in_RTL_textarea/
It's nothing more than a bit of valid html inside a textarea. This is
the way virtually all online HTML source editors work. But in an RTL
context, the display is utterly wrong. It doesn't matter which
language you type or what browser you use, the link markup *looks*
wrong.

I had to investigate this deeper, so I installed a Hebrew version of
Wordpress locally. Now whether you use the visual editor or the plain
HTML source editor, when you put in a link (or some other html tag
with attributes), the markup *looks* completely wrong. Have a look:
http://lensco.be/lensco.be/test/html_in_RTL_textarea/wordpress_editor.png

I emphasized the fact that it looks wrong, because if you save this,
the output will be 100% correct and valid HTML. Now, I don't question
the fact that the browsers do behave like they should do by the book,
but it makes me wonder if it's impossible/impractical to use an online
HTML editor in RTL languages?

(I'm asking this because we use a homemade translate tool at work that
has some bits of HTML mixed with the text. Our Arabic translator was
going nuts over all the cut up markup.)
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Re: [css-d] Implementing float: center;

2008-05-06 Thread Mark Richards
   No. I want fixed center, liquid secondary.
   Three versions (Georg Sortun) depending on the source 
 order you seek:
   http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27a.html
   http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27b.html
   http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27c.html
 
 Now this *is* what I want.

When I saw this topic come up I was hoping to see a solution where the
float:center item has text flowing around both sides of the item, such
as this:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Ut elit arcu,
egestas et, bibendum fermentum, consequat a, sem. Curabitur felis diam,
elementum eget, dictum ** quis, elementum quis, est. 
Sed porta vehicula ** lorem. Curabitur in dui vel 
eros fringilla *float:--* vulputate. Mauris mi lectus, 
mattis vitae,  *-center-* tristique eget, laoreet ut, 
nunc. Pellentesque ** sodales, sapien sit amet 
malesuada congue, orci ** neque aliquam augue, quis 
tincidunt quam nisi nec turpis. Morbi non odio. Maecenas a nisi.
Maecenas eget orci. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing
elit. 

Anyone know of a way to do this?

Mark
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[css-d] :: CSS Code Readibility ::

2008-05-06 Thread Amrinder
Hi,

I was reading this article on Smashing Magazine which shows how to increase 
code readability,
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/05/02/improving-code-readability-with-css-styleguides/

but I have listened to Andy Clarke over Lynda.com saying that one should save 
the white space as it increases the file size.

Which approach is better? Should we go for code readability as described by 
Smashing Magazine or follow what Andy said.

Thanks,

Amrinder
Freelance Web-Standard Designer
www.awayback.com 
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Re: [css-d] :: CSS Code Readibility ::

2008-05-06 Thread Kepler Gelotte
 

 Which approach is better? Should we go for code readability

 as described by Smashing Magazine or follow what Andy said.

 

Hi,

 

I have a free download which will compress your CSS files on the server
automatically. This way you can develop as you normally would but when the
user's browser requests the CSS file, all whitespace and comments will be
removed as well as Gzip encoding will be enabled.

 

Another feature is you can combine CSS files on the server using an @include
directive instead of @import which requires the browser to make multiple GET
requests.

 

You can download the code and documentation here:
http://www.coolphptools.com/dynamic_css

 

 

Best regards,

 

Kepler Gelotte

Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.

156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854

www.neighborwebmaster.com

www.coolphptools.com

phone/fax: (732) 302-0904

 

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Re: [css-d] Implementing float: center;

2008-05-06 Thread Michael B Allen
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Mark Richards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No. I want fixed center, liquid secondary.

Three versions (Georg Sortun) depending on the source
   order you seek:
 http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27a.html
 http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27b.html
 http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27c.html
  
   Now this *is* what I want.

  When I saw this topic come up I was hoping to see a solution where the
  float:center item has text flowing around both sides of the item, such
  as this:

  Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Ut elit arcu,
  egestas et, bibendum fermentum, consequat a, sem. Curabitur felis diam,
  elementum eget, dictum ** quis, elementum quis, est.
  Sed porta vehicula ** lorem. Curabitur in dui vel
  eros fringilla *float:--* vulputate. Mauris mi lectus,
  mattis vitae,  *-center-* tristique eget, laoreet ut,
  nunc. Pellentesque ** sodales, sapien sit amet
  malesuada congue, orci ** neque aliquam augue, quis
  tincidunt quam nisi nec turpis. Morbi non odio. Maecenas a nisi.
  Maecenas eget orci. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing
  elit.

  Anyone know of a way to do this?

Ah, true. I guess this isn't exactly what I wanted either.

There is one thing that might get this closer.

Georg's examples have an extra div inside the 50% width side1 / side2. See:

div id=side2
div
pa side column #8211; bthird/b in source./p
/div
/div

I think if you remove that div so that it's like:

div id=side2
a side column #8211; bthird/b in source.
/div

the text doesn't flow around, it goes *under*. Now however, because
the width of the center div is fixed, you could float: left a div of
half the size just to push the text out from under that area. Do the
same on the left side with a float: right. That will give you two
columns of text which still isn't exactly what we want but the text
should flow around the center element.

Mike
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Re: [css-d] Implementing float: center;

2008-05-06 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Mark Richards wrote:

 When I saw this topic come up I was hoping to see a solution where
 the float:center item has text flowing around both sides of the
 item...

In short: can't be done with CSS - yet.

You can take IE/win's resizing weaknesses out of this...
http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/tmp/floatspacer.html
...and get a two-column solution, but that is as good as it gets.

regards
Georg
-- 
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [css-d] : CSS Code Readibility ::

2008-05-06 Thread Alan K Baker
This is one of those 'Horses for Courses' arguments.

Having been a programmer in machine code which had to fit onto 1K (yes 1K !!!) 
ROMs, I've been used to byte fighting and I've seen so called code 
optimisers, which have never been as good as the human hand.

These days, life's much easier, but unfortunately, space-wasting has led to 
bloatware.

You have to consider what the end result is to be. Is your code likely to be 
downloaded by folks on slow dial-up? How much code have you generated and what 
is the actual file size? What is the ratio of image files to text, on the site 
in question?

Does it really matter if your visitors have to wait for a page to load? To 
answer that question, I cite the example of what has happened on my latest 
project over the last day or so. I was having problems with IE6 not always 
displaying large images and after discussion with Georg, I decided that it was 
a timeout problem due to IE6 taking too long to calculate sizes. I then defined 
all of the sizes for some 50 or so jpegs into the CSS, which increased the file 
size somewhat. It had the desired effect and instead of the increased CSS 
slowing things down, the benefits were remarkable. (Thanks Georg).

If the site is proliferated by image files then cutting down the text (white 
space) will not make a significant difference and because most CSS files are 
relatively small in size, I don't really believe white space removal is worth 
the bother. 

You can of course use TABs to do your code formatting, which will reduce the 
byte count somewhat, or use an optimiser after you've finished writing your 
code, or one that runs on the server side.

TBQH If someone asks for help on this forum and their code is sloppily 
formatted or compressed, I find that disrespectful to the person being asked 
for help, and if I'm tight for time, I would think twice before trying to read 
it.

My vote's with 'Smashing'. :-)

Regards, 
 
Alan.
 
www.theatreorgans.co.uk
www.virtualtheatreorgans.com
Admin: ConnArtistes, UKShopsmiths, 2nd Touch  A-P groups
Shopsmith 520 + bits
Flatulus Antiquitus


  - Original Message - 
  From: Amrinder 
  To: CSS Discuss 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 2:48 PM
  Subject: [css-d] :: CSS Code Readibility ::
  l in size

  Hi,

  I was reading this article on Smashing Magazine which shows how to increase 
code readability,
  
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/05/02/improving-code-readability-with-css-styleguides/

  but I have listened to Andy Clarke over Lynda.com saying that one should save 
the white space as it increases the file size.

  Which approach is better? Should we go for code readability as described by 
Smashing Magazine or follow what Andy said.

  Thanks,

  Amrinder
  Freelance Web-Standard Designer
  www.awayback.com 
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Re: [css-d] Implementing float: center;

2008-05-06 Thread Michael B Allen
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Michael B Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Mark Richards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  No. I want fixed center, liquid secondary.
  
  Three versions (Georg Sortun) depending on the source
 order you seek:
   http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27a.html
   http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27b.html
   http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_27c.html

 Now this *is* what I want.
  
When I saw this topic come up I was hoping to see a solution where the
float:center item has text flowing around both sides of the item, such
as this:
  
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Ut elit arcu,
egestas et, bibendum fermentum, consequat a, sem. Curabitur felis diam,
elementum eget, dictum ** quis, elementum quis, est.
Sed porta vehicula ** lorem. Curabitur in dui vel
eros fringilla *float:--* vulputate. Mauris mi lectus,
mattis vitae,  *-center-* tristique eget, laoreet ut,
nunc. Pellentesque ** sodales, sapien sit amet
malesuada congue, orci ** neque aliquam augue, quis
tincidunt quam nisi nec turpis. Morbi non odio. Maecenas a nisi.
Maecenas eget orci. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing
elit.
  
Anyone know of a way to do this?

  Ah, true. I guess this isn't exactly what I wanted either.

  There is one thing that might get this closer.

  Georg's examples have an extra div inside the 50% width side1 / side2. See:

  div id=side2
  div
  pa side column #8211; bthird/b in source./p
  /div
  /div

  I think if you remove that div so that it's like:

  div id=side2
  a side column #8211; bthird/b in source.
  /div

  the text doesn't flow around, it goes *under*. Now however, because
  the width of the center div is fixed, you could float: left a div of
  half the size just to push the text out from under that area. Do the
  same on the left side with a float: right. That will give you two
  columns of text which still isn't exactly what we want but the text
  should flow around the center element.

Here's the two column version:

http://www.ioplex.com/~miallen/float-center-two-cols.html

One limitation of this is that the the height of the center div must
be known in advance.

Mike

-- 
Michael B Allen
PHP Active Directory SPNEGO SSO
http://www.ioplex.com/
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[css-d] Vertical Align Bottom?

2008-05-06 Thread Matthew Stoneback
I wanted to thank everyone for their assistance with my most recent site
check.  I wanted to apologize about the HTML not validating, it was valid,
then I made as few changes and forgot to re-validate it.  I also took
everyones' suggestions and change my font size to em from px.

Now for my question.  Is there a way to align the Test Image Box, on the
linked page below, to the bottom of the div leftCol?  Basically, is there
any way to align elements to the bottom of a long column with is denoted by
a div with a clear?

One other question.  Why will my HTML not validate when I have
target=blank in HTML 1.0 Strict?  (If this is too far off topic please
ignore.  I really want to know about the above question.)

Here is the HTML: http://www.eddysound.com/msc/

Here is the CSS: http://www.eddysound.com/msc/main.css

Thanks in advance,

Matt
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Re: [css-d] Vertical Align Bottom?

2008-05-06 Thread David Laakso
Matthew Stoneback wrote:
  I also took
 everyones' suggestions and change my font size to em from px.

 Here is the HTML: http://www.eddysound.com/msc/

 Here is the CSS: http://www.eddysound.com/msc/main.css


 Matt
   




Add this to your style sheet to keep your em sized fonts from going 
totally nuts when scaled in IE:

html {font-size: 100%;}



-- 
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Re: [css-d] Vertical Align Bottom?

2008-05-06 Thread Rob Emenecker
 

 One other question.  Why will my HTML not validate when I 
 have target=blank in HTML 1.0 Strict?  (If this is too far 
 off topic please ignore.  I really want to know about the 
 above question.)
 

Assuming you mean XHTML 1.0 Strict, there is not target attribute to the
A element in Strict XHTML. If you are in loose or transitional it is
supported, by the value is _blank (with a leading underscore), not
blank.


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Re: [css-d] Gif and PNG with IE6

2008-05-06 Thread Wade Smart
David Hucklesby wrote:

 But if you use PNG-8 the transparency works fine. Semi-transparency
 displays as fully transparent in IE 5.x and 6 though.
 
 We can't solve your problem without seeing the page, though. But
 I'll remind you that the path to a background-image is the path from
 the style sheet, not from the HTML page. (Except in Netscape 4.)
 
 Cordially,
 David

20080506 1254 GMT-6

That answered some problems. I didnt create the graphics so I opened them in 
GIMP and changed them to gif interlaced. That solved the problem for a few of 
the graphics but it wont work on all of them - as some are transparent.

But that is ok - since that is not a css question - I think that this answered 
my questions to my problems.

Thanks

Wade
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Re: [css-d] Scaling problem - and an IE6 problem

2008-05-06 Thread David Laakso
Peter Bradley wrote:
 http://www.peredur.uklinux.net/PlaceForWords/

 When I try to scale up or down (Ctrl+ or Ctrl-), the header stays the 
 same size.  I've given it an explicit height of 16em and an implicit 
 width of 100%, and I was expecting it to scale, ems being scalable and 
 all that.  Even with implicit width and height, it doesn't scale.




It may be just as well that the header image does not scale (except in 
Opera) because it does not a pretty picture make when scaled-- personal 
opinion of course. Others on the list can provide the methods for it to 
scale images if you still want it to do so. Personally, I'd wait until 
the technology for making this happen less crudely than now is in place.






   
 Scaling up isn't too bad, but on scaling down, the menu and main text 
 soon finds itself on top of the banner.  It scales OK when the browser 
 window is resized (althought that doesn't alter the font size, of 
 course).  I can live with this as I guess that the ability to scale up 
 is more important than the ability to scale down, but if anyone knows of 
 a better way to code it, I'd be very grateful.
   



The page needs a little more structure to employ font-scaling up or 
down. The basic principle for doing so comes from print media layout 
shudder the thought. *Hold the horizontals * (on the Web it means set 
width in px, em, percent, min/max or some combination of them) and *hit 
the verticals* (by not restricting or impeding height). The example [1] 
employs px width
and has been cursory checked in IE/6, IE/7, and compliant browsers.

[1]
http://www.chelseacreekstudio.com/ca/cssd/c.html






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Re: [css-d] Implementing float: center;

2008-05-06 Thread Michael B Allen
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Someone wrote:


 Granted that you may have a client that insists (probably against your
 better judgement) that they want a pseudo 'float:center', but why do you
 want to do it?

 Look at any newspaper or magazine and the text is always one side of an
 image or the other, and top and bottom, but never both sides. It makes the
 text extremely difficult to follow, unless the reader has a ruler or the
 text is set on visible horizontal lines.

 IMO (Certainly in the Western World) text is read from top to bottom, left
 to right in a more or less continuous flow. Even with left or right 'chunks'
 occupied by images etc, the flow is maintained.

 As an exercise in formatting it could be fun I guess. :-)

 My 2c

The problem is that I'm not doing documents, I'm doing applications
and unfortunately it seems CSS' layout capability is tailored to
creating documents with text elements that flow and float and so
on. Web applications are commonly collections of UI elements organized
into tables (e.g. forms). If it were up to me I would just use a
tables (at least one maybe as a layout backbone). But unfortunately
I can't because currently the community perception is that anyone
using tables for layouts is ignorant and that could affect the
marketability of a product that doesn't follow approved practices.

This doesn't really apply to the float: center effort but I'm a
little annoyed by the customary why do you want to do that?
response. Not everyone is laying out blogs, wikis and home pages.

Mike
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Re: [css-d] : CSS Code Readibility ::

2008-05-06 Thread Mark Richards
 Does it really matter if your visitors have to wait for a 
 page to load? 

It's getting off-topic but on a popular site reducing the size of any
resources, including CSS files, can save money if you pay for bandwidth.
Even if the user-experience isn't materially affected it may affect the
site owner's bottom line.  I'd consider keeping white-space in for the
source CSS file but compressing the file before serving it to the
users.

You ARE keeping your source files separate from your production files,
in a source-code control system, right? :)

Mark
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[css-d] Overflow Hidden Headache

2008-05-06 Thread Chris Akins
I can't for the life of me figure out how to do what I'd like.  I've tried
several 3-col layouts that get very close to what I'd like to do.  But one
issue I can't figure out is how to have my round image in the upper right of
the page IN the right hand column, but also have the top edge of it hanging
into the upper header.  All of these layouts use overflow:hidden in their
main body containers, so it cuts off that image.  I've only tested any of
this in Firefox so far.

The closest I've come to the look I'm after is here:

www.springfieldmo.gov/newSite/index7.html
www.springfieldmo.gov/newSite/mainStyles_take7.css

But the above has the round image in the header block - not really the best
for keeping it with its related content.

Keeping that image in the right hand column gives me this:

www.springfieldmo.gov/newSite/index7b.html
www.springfieldmo.gov/newSite/mainStyles_take7b.css

As you can see, the image is cut off, and I can't figure out any way around
it.

If I take out the overflow:hidden from the #container rule, then the top
looks fine, but the bottom of the page goes haywire.

Can overflow be defined for just one side similar to border, margin, or
padding?

Any help is much appreciated.  I'm beginning to wonder if I've designed
something that's impossible to implement.

Chris A.
City of Springfield, MO
Web Coordinator
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Re: [css-d] Overflow Hidden Headache

2008-05-06 Thread Ingo Chao
Chris Akins wrote:
 If I take out the overflow:hidden from the #container rule, then the top
 looks fine, but the bottom of the page goes haywire.


Did not look into it, but if overflow:hidden is meant to contain floats 
in these layouts (instead of literally cutting what is overflowing), 
then overflow:hidden could (and probably should) be replaced by an 
easyclearing method.

Ingo

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http://www.dolphinsback.com
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Re: [css-d] Overflow Hidden Headache

2008-05-06 Thread Chris Akins
From my not-so-advanced vantage point, it appears that the overflow:hidden
is not being used so much to contain floats as there isn't but float in the
#container div.

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Ingo Chao [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Chris Akins wrote:

  If I take out the overflow:hidden from the #container rule, then the top
  looks fine, but the bottom of the page goes haywire.
 


 Did not look into it, but if overflow:hidden is meant to contain floats in
 these layouts (instead of literally cutting what is overflowing), then
 overflow:hidden could (and probably should) be replaced by an easyclearing
 method.

 Ingo

 --
 http://www.satzansatz.de/css.html
 http://www.dolphinsback.com

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