Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Philip Taylor 


Chris Williams wrote:

> My larger point was, tread carefully here.  Test a lot.  Unexpected
> results (as Jeff sees in his simple email to this list) are likely.

If one has to tread carefully for characters as commonplace and
straightforward as curly quotation marks, what hope has one if one wants
(as I frequently do) to use Vietnamese characters, polytonic Greek
characters, IPA characters and so on ?  I really think that, in the 21st
century, one should be able to rely on the receiving client displaying
the the more common elements of the Unicode repertoire correctly.   If I
were to want to include Cherokee, Blackfoot, Dene, Cree or Naskapi, for
example, then I would do well to ensure that my intended recipient(s)
had support for such languages.  But this should not have to be the case
for mainstream languages, let alone basic punctuation.

Philip Taylor
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Chris Williams 
Perhaps.  But browsers are not the only place where your text is
interpreted.  Witness the fact that in my mail program all I'm seeing for
his "preferred" characters are (as you also note) superscript characters.
This is presumably because his email is being converted to ASCII
characters (it's a non-html email) which is then being attempted to be
displayed in a font (in my case Consolas) that doesn't represent these
glyphs properly.

My larger point was, tread carefully here.  Test a lot.  Unexpected
results (as Jeff sees in his simple email to this list) are likely.

On 10/9/15, 9:48 AM, "Philip Taylor"  wrote:

>
>
>Chris Williams wrote:
>
>> 1) These characters are font dependent.  Unless you are specifically
>> calling out fonts that you use, you risk using glyphs that will not be
>> found on your target machine.
>
>My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that if a modern browser is
>called on to display a glyph G from a font F (or from a font alternative
>sequence F1, F2, F3, ...) and the glyph does not exist in F, F1, F2 or
>F3, the browser will attempt to substitute another font (which /does/
>contain the glyph) for the offending glyph, if such a font can be found
>on the system on which the browser is running.
>
>So given that U+2019   RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (the preferred
>character to use for apostrophe ) is a standard part of Unicode, there
>is no reason not to use it where possible; only very old machines
>without Unicode support are likely to fail to display the glyph
>correctly.  Other similar and supported characters include :
>
>> U+0022   QUOTATION MARK  "   neutral (vertical), used as opening or 
>> closing
>>quotation mark; preferred characters in English for paired quotation
>>marks are U+201C and U+201D
>> U+0027   APOSTROPHE  '   neutral (vertical) glyph having mixed 
>> usage;
>>preferred character for apostrophe is U+2019; preferred characters in
>>English for paired quotation marks are U+2018 and U+2019
>> U+0060   GRAVE ACCENT`   
>> U+00B4   ACUTE ACCENT´   
>> U+2018   LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK  ‘   
>> U+2019   RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK ’   this is the preferred 
>> character
>>to use for apostrophe
>> U+201C   LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK  “   
>> U+201D   RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK ”   
>
>Philip Taylor

__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Chris Williams 
Explain then, your email of yesterday where you explain that you said

---
Hmmm, what I see are superscript 3, 2 & 1 in that order, followed by a
prime.  What I now think you meant is :

Instead of a “tick” mark for an apostrophe, I¹d like a mark like you see
here: ’

I know of no way of accomplishing that using CSS, but server-side
processing might be an (off-list/topic) option.
---




On 10/11/15, 11:49 AM, "Philip Taylor"  wrote:

>
>
>Chris Williams wrote:
>
>> My larger point was, tread carefully here.  Test a lot.  Unexpected
>> results (as Jeff sees in his simple email to this list) are likely.
>
>If one has to tread carefully for characters as commonplace and
>straightforward as curly quotation marks, what hope has one if one wants
>(as I frequently do) to use Vietnamese characters, polytonic Greek
>characters, IPA characters and so on ?  I really think that, in the 21st
>century, one should be able to rely on the receiving client displaying
>the the more common elements of the Unicode repertoire correctly.   If I
>were to want to include Cherokee, Blackfoot, Dene, Cree or Naskapi, for
>example, then I would do well to ensure that my intended recipient(s)
>had support for such languages.  But this should not have to be the case
>for mainstream languages, let alone basic punctuation.
>
>Philip Taylor

__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Tom Livingston 
On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Philip Taylor  wrote:

>
>
> Chris Williams wrote:
>
> > [Can you] explain then, your email of yesterday where you explain that
> you said
>
> Explain what, Chris ?  I sent a plain text message in UTF-8 which read :
>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> >
> >
> > Gates, Jeff wrote:
> >
> >> Instead of a ³tick² mark for an apostrophe, I¹d like a mark like you see
> >> here: ¹
> >> This: ¹ Not this: '
> >
> > Hmmm, what I see are superscript 3, 2 & 1 in that order, followed by a
> > prime.  What I now think you meant is :
> >
> > Instead of a “tick” mark for an apostrophe, I¹d like a mark like you see
> > here: ’
> >
> > I know of no way of accomplishing that using CSS, but server-side
> > processing might be an (off-list/topic) option.
> >
> > Philip Taylor
>
> If what you received was did not contain left and right double curly
> quotation marks and a single right curly quotation mark, then your
> e-mail client is incapable of displaying even the most basic parts of
> the Unicode repertoire correctly.
>
>
>
I only saw superscripted numbers as well, and I have my doubts that ios9.x
gmail client can't display unicode...



-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Front End Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | medialogic.com


#663399
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Tom Livingston 
On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Philip Taylor  wrote:

>
>
> Tom Livingston wrote:
>
> > I only saw superscripted numbers as well, and I have my doubts that
> > ios9.x gmail client can't display unicode...
>
> Saw only superscripted numbers in whose/which message, Tom ?
> Philip Taylor
>

 Jeff gates first reply.


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Front End Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | medialogic.com


#663399
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Tom Livingston 
On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Philip Taylor  wrote:

>
>
> Tom Livingston wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, I usually use entities and have yet to hear of any
> > issues.
> >
> > This:  not: '
> >
> > Though, I am no Unicode scholar.
>
> Certain entities come predefined in HTML and XHMTL, and entities can be
> declared for XML documents, but in plain text messages such as yours :
>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> they will be rendered as typed.  The set of entities that are valid for
> HTML 4.01 and XHTML include  single quotation mark, U+2019 ISOnum -->
>
> Philip Taylor
>
>
Understood. I was addressing the original issue in the op. Sorry if the
discussion has since veered elsewhere. I would just use find and replace.
Sublime Text has an option to encode special characters with entities.
Select all text and encode special characters. Done.

2cents.


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Front End Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | medialogic.com


#663399
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Philip Taylor 


Chris Williams wrote:

> [Can you] explain then, your email of yesterday where you explain that you 
> said

Explain what, Chris ?  I sent a plain text message in UTF-8 which read :

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> 
> 
> 
> Gates, Jeff wrote:
> 
>> Instead of a ³tick² mark for an apostrophe, I¹d like a mark like you see
>> here: ¹
>> This: ¹ Not this: '
> 
> Hmmm, what I see are superscript 3, 2 & 1 in that order, followed by a
> prime.  What I now think you meant is :
> 
> Instead of a “tick” mark for an apostrophe, I¹d like a mark like you see
> here: ’
> 
> I know of no way of accomplishing that using CSS, but server-side
> processing might be an (off-list/topic) option.
> 
> Philip Taylor

If what you received was did not contain left and right double curly
quotation marks and a single right curly quotation mark, then your
e-mail client is incapable of displaying even the most basic parts of
the Unicode repertoire correctly.

What you sent back, which displayed here as left and right
double-quotation marks but a superscript 1 instead of a single right
quotation mark was not sent in UTF-8 but in a Korean encoding :

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

If you abandon Unicode and use proprietary or national encodings, all
bets are off.  Jeff used neither (he used a standard ISO encoding :  ISO
8859-1) but as that encoding does not contain the characters he was
seeking to communication, they appeared garbled as one would expect :
ISO-8859-1 contains only « », " ", and ' ', and does not provide for
oriented (6- or 9-shaped) single or double quotation marks.

Philip Taylor
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Philip Taylor 


Tom Livingston wrote:


> > I only saw superscripted numbers as well, and I have my doubts that
> > ios9.x gmail client can't display unicode...
> 
> Saw only superscripted numbers in whose/which message, Tom ?
> Philip Taylor
> 
>  Jeff gates first reply.

Jeff sent in ISO-8859-1, as I mentioned in my preceding message;
therefore you (and I) saw characters from the ISO-8859-1 character set,
which does not contain the very characters that Jeff was trying to
communicate.

Philip Taylor
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Philip Taylor 


Tom Livingston wrote:

> For what it's worth, I usually use entities and have yet to hear of any
> issues. 
> 
> This:  not: '
> 
> Though, I am no Unicode scholar. 

Certain entities come predefined in HTML and XHMTL, and entities can be
declared for XML documents, but in plain text messages such as yours :

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

they will be rendered as typed.  The set of entities that are valid for
HTML 4.01 and XHTML include 

Philip Taylor

__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Philip Taylor 


Tom Livingston wrote:

> I only saw superscripted numbers as well, and I have my doubts that
> ios9.x gmail client can't display unicode...

Saw only superscripted numbers in whose/which message, Tom ?
Philip Taylor
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Tom Livingston 
On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Philip Taylor  wrote:

>
>
> Tom Livingston wrote:
>
>
> > > I only saw superscripted numbers as well, and I have my doubts that
> > > ios9.x gmail client can't display unicode...
> >
> > Saw only superscripted numbers in whose/which message, Tom ?
> > Philip Taylor
> >
> >  Jeff gates first reply.
>
> Jeff sent in ISO-8859-1, as I mentioned in my preceding message;
> therefore you (and I) saw characters from the ISO-8859-1 character set,
> which does not contain the very characters that Jeff was trying to
> communicate.
>
> Philip Taylor
>

For what it's worth, I usually use entities and have yet to hear of any
issues.

This:  not: '

Though, I am no Unicode scholar.




-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Front End Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | medialogic.com


#663399
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Chris Williams 
This.

From:  Tom Livingston 
Date:  Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 12:37 PM
To:  "p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk" 
Cc:  Christopher Williams , CSS-D

Subject:  Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

I only saw superscripted numbers as well, and I have my doubts that ios9.x
gmail client can't display unicode...
 

__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Tom Livingston 
On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Chris Williams  wrote:

> This.
>
>

Philip already explained this...

"Jeff sent in ISO-8859-1, as I mentioned in my preceding message;
therefore you (and I) saw characters from the ISO-8859-1 character set,
which does not contain the very characters that Jeff was trying to
communicate.

Philip Taylor"





> From:  Tom Livingston >
> Date:  Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 12:37 PM
> To:  "p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk "  >
> Cc:  Christopher Williams >, CSS-D
> >
> Subject:  Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe
>
> I only saw superscripted numbers as well, and I have my doubts that ios9.x
> gmail client can't display unicode...
>
>
> __
> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org ]
> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
> List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>


-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Front End Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | medialogic.com


#663399
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread Chris Williams 
Yeah, well whatever.  I'm using Outlook on the Mac, which is not set to
Korean, as Philip seems to believe.

From:  Tom Livingston 
Date:  Sunday, October 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM
To:  Christopher Williams 
Cc:  CSS-D 
Subject:  Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe




On Sunday, October 11, 2015, Chris Williams  wrote:

This.





Philip already explained this...

"Jeff sent in ISO-8859-1, as I mentioned in my preceding message;
therefore you (and I) saw characters from the ISO-8859-1 character set,
which does not contain the very characters that Jeff was trying to
communicate.





Philip Taylor"




__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

Re: [css-d] CSS solution for a "curly" apostrophe

2015-10-11 Thread MiB 

12 okt 2015 kl. 02:01 skrev Chris Williams :

> Yeah, well whatever.  I'm using Outlook on the Mac, which is not set to
> Korean, as Philip seems to believe.

When Philip quoted your letter, he didn’t think anything else beyond the fact 
that your message had among it message headers the character set "euc-kr”. As I 
do selectively here:

QUOTE
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
…
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
END QUOTE

See that third line? That’s all copied from your actual message. I sent you 
your whole message as an attachment separately. Interestingly when this 
character set was used I got your characters displayed as you intended, 
contrasting the first message where it was simply . Apple Mail in OS X 10.9.5.
__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

[css-d] Multiple background image dilemma

2015-10-11 Thread Crest Christopher 
I have an issue whereas I'm using multiple background images, turning 
off background-cover fixes the title issue with one of the background 
images, but when the orientation of the screen changes to lets say, 
landscape, the second background is not covered ?

__
css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/
List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html
Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/