Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
2010/1/16 Climis, Tim tcli...@indiana.edu: [my lengthy reply on semantic markup] Another reason is that usability-wise, only something that is a link is supposed to be underlined on the web. For a bibliographic reference, perhaps bolding the text instead of underlining it would be a good alternative. Otherwise, you might have people clicking the heck out of an underlined bit of text. Not sure the logic holds in a universal sense if i were typesetting some langauges accurately on the web, i'd never use underlining for hypertext links, since underlying text is the appropriate mechanism for some languages to emphasis text. there are some aspects of HTML that seem to be hardwired based on Western European typographic traditions but can not be considered universal. But then I tend to find that there are a range of HTML elements that should be avoided in web sites that are intended to be truly multilingual. Andrew -- Andrew Cunningham Vicnet Research and Development Coordinator State Library of Victoria Australia andr...@vicnet.net.au lang.supp...@gmail.com __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
Ray Costanzo wrote: OK, that's clear. But HTML has never offered an initialism tag, so acronym is still needed. ;-) Actually, an acronym is pronounced as a word, and an initialism is not, as is my understanding. Abbreviation: Mr. Acronym: SCUBA Initialism: FBI On Jan 15, 2010, at 2:10 AM, david gn...@hawaii.rr.com wrote: Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, david wrote: No, an acronym is usually pronounced as individual letters. (Some may be pronounced now as words.) Abbreviations are never pronounced letter-by-letter. Mr. is NOT an acronym, it's an abbreviation. -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
Abbreviation: Mr. Acronym: SCUBA Initialism: FBI I don't see the distinction between acronym (which I understand), and initialism (which sounds like a made up word). Both are acronyms. Acronyms, depending upon the coined usage, is either pronounced as a word or as individual letters. The difference in which, is usually (but not always) based on whether it has a word form to it. APA ... pronounced A-P-A AMPA ... pronounced Am-Pa Both are acronyms as far as I am concerned. Now, I also disagree with the HTML 5 draft to leave out ACRONYM. It is NOT an abbreviation. Not because of pronunciation, but by definition. The pisser is that this was a symantec tag that had merit and meaning in STM publishing. (STM is an acronym that stands for Scientific-Technical-Medical.) Now in most cases, authors in those fields define the acronym at first use. This is specified in most writing style guides. ...Rob Rob Emenecker @ Hairy Dog Digital www.hairydogdigital.com Please note: Return e-mail messages are only accepted from discussion groups that this e-mail address subscribes to. All other messages are automatically deleted. __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die? (OT)
On 2010/01/15 08:37 (GMT-0500) Rob Emenecker composed: Abbreviation: Mr. Acronym: SCUBA Initialism: FBI I don't see the distinction between acronym (which I understand), and initialism (which sounds like a made up word). Both are acronyms. Acronyms, depending upon the coined usage, is either pronounced as a word or as individual letters. The difference in which, is usually (but not always) based on whether it has a word form to it. APA ... pronounced A-P-A AMPA ... pronounced Am-Pa Both are acronyms as far as I am concerned. Now, I also disagree with the HTML 5 draft to leave out ACRONYM. It is NOT an abbreviation. Not because of pronunciation, but by definition. The pisser is that this was a symantec tag that had merit and meaning in STM publishing. (STM is an acronym that stands for Scientific-Technical-Medical.) Now in most cases, authors in those fields define the acronym at first use. This is specified in most writing style guides. This is OT here. OTOH, maybe the HTML5 spec could be changed if this thread were replicated on the public-html-comments mailing list: http://lists.w3.org/ -- Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
A reply that went to me, but probably should have gone to the entire list, or at least the OP... [my lengthy reply on semantic markup] Another reason is that usability-wise, only something that is a link is supposed to be underlined on the web. For a bibliographic reference, perhaps bolding the text instead of underlining it would be a good alternative. Otherwise, you might have people clicking the heck out of an underlined bit of text. Theresa Rather than bold, italics would be a more appropriate alternative. APA (and MLA, and Chicago) style were for the most part designed with typewriters in mind. It was impossible to italicize titles on a typewriter without changing all your keys, so they went with underline instead. But computers don't have that limitation. And, by visiting the APA site, it appears that the style guide finds italicized titles a legitimate and proper substitute for underlining. This would lead to a similar complaint about the removal of i, I'm sure. But the semantic argument still applies. ---Tim __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
Abbreviation: Mr. Acronym: SCUBA Initialism: FBI I don't see the distinction between acronym (which I understand), and initialism (which sounds like a made up word). Both are acronyms. Acronyms, depending upon the coined usage, is either pronounced as a word or as individual letters. The difference in which, is usually (but not always) based on whether it has a word form to it. APA ... pronounced A-P-A AMPA ... pronounced Am-Pa Both are acronyms as far as I am concerned. FWIW, Grammar Girl did a podcast on this: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/acronyms-grammar.aspx which references: http://juicystudio.com/article/abbreviations-acronyms.php Mark W. __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
I am using HTML 4.01 Strict and CSS 2.1. u/u has been exiled and I cannot understand why. I use APA document referencing style and I am frequently required (yes, required, ... by the style) to underline fields in a bibliographic reference. I find that span style=text-decoration: underlineField/span is a clumsy substitute. Why was u/u sent to Coventry? Rick _ Video chat with Windows Live Messenger Learn how http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/messenger/article/870686/video-chat-with-messenger __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
On 2010/01/14 23:36 (GMT) Rick Duley composed: I am using HTML 4.01 Strict and CSS 2.1. u/u has been exiled and I cannot understand why. I use APA document referencing style and I am frequently required (yes, required, ... by the style) to underline fields in a bibliographic reference. I find that span style=text-decoration: underlineField/span is a clumsy substitute. Why was u/u sent to Coventry? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#absent-elements explains, but pay attention to the 2nd sentence. -- Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
On Thursday, January 14, 2010 6:36:50 pm Rick Duley wrote:
I am using HTML 4.01 Strict and CSS 2.1. u/u has been exiled and I
cannot understand why.
I use APA document referencing style and I am frequently required (yes,
required, ... by the style) to underline fields in a bibliographic
reference. I find that span style=text-decoration:
underlineField/span is a clumsy substitute.
Why was u/u sent to Coventry?
The idea is that you would not write span style=text-decoration:
underlinetitle/span over and over but that instead you would define a
class and do it.
Something like:
head...
style
.title {text-decoration: underline}
/style
/head
body...
span class=titleTitle/span
...
/body
The point being that HTML is a language used to describe the document. The
fact that the title of the source is underlined is not the important part.
That does not describe the document at all. The important part is that the
title of the source is a title, hence the class name.
To be even more semantically correct, each bibliographic entry should probably
go inside cite tags (which you would then have to remove the default italic
style on). But it would also allow you to do other convenient things, like
automatically have all the entries indented (or outdented - i forget how APA
works) correctly, without having to resort to extra spaces and br/ tags.
How far you decide to go in semantic description is kind of subjective, and of
course, you can ignore it completely, as Felix pointed out. (I am a strong
proponent of semantic markup, so I personally do not recommend this route, but
I do admit that it exists.)
---Tim
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Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
Felix Miata wrote: On 2010/01/14 23:36 (GMT) Rick Duley composed: I am using HTML 4.01 Strict and CSS 2.1. u/u has been exiled and I cannot understand why. I use APA document referencing style and I am frequently required (yes, required, ... by the style) to underline fields in a bibliographic reference. I find that span style=text-decoration: underlineField/span is a clumsy substitute. Why was u/u sent to Coventry? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#absent-elements explains, but pay attention to the 2nd sentence. And I happen to disagree with leaving out acronym. An acronym is NOT the same as an abbreviation. An acronym is something that might look like a word *but is not pronounced as one*. For instance, DOD isn't pronounced dawd, it's pronounced as individual letters. That's what acronym indicates. Abbreviation doesn't indicate that. For example, Mr. is an abbreviation but nobody pronounces it m r . They pronounce it mister. But I see no benefit to HTML5, anyway - the browser developers will screw it up just as they did earlier versions. ;-) -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] u/u - why did it have to die?
Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, david wrote: Felix Miata wrote: On 2010/01/14 23:36 (GMT) Rick Duley composed: I am using HTML 4.01 Strict and CSS 2.1. u/u has been exiled and I cannot understand why. I use APA document referencing style and I am frequently required (yes, required, ... by the style) to underline fields in a bibliographic reference. I find that span style=text-decoration: underlineField/span is a clumsy substitute. Why was u/u sent to Coventry? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#absent-elements explains, but pay attention to the 2nd sentence. And I happen to disagree with leaving out acronym. An acronym is NOT the same as an abbreviation. An acronym is something that might look like a word *but is not pronounced as one*. For instance, DOD isn't pronounced dawd, it's pronounced as individual letters. That's what acronym indicates. Abbreviation doesn't indicate that. For example, Mr. is an abbreviation but nobody pronounces it m r . They pronounce it mister. You have it backwards. An acronym is an abbreviation that *is* pronounced as a word. No, an acronym is usually pronounced as individual letters. (Some may be pronounced now as words.) Abbreviations are never pronounced letter-by-letter. Mr. is NOT an acronym, it's an abbreviation. -- David gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
