Re: [CTRL] Conspiracy Theory and Libertarianism
-Caveat Lector- .. Forwarded from the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]: From: Dr. Ken Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Conspiracy Theory and Libertarianism Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 3:03 PM I think the future of liberty is much more important than its past. Whoever gets credit for the idea seems silly to me. How about we try to just enact liberty now, for ourselves? Let historians argue the finer points. Personally, I don't care who invented my automobile as long as it works. Also, I think its a joke to try to establish liberty for the future. Future generations will do whatever they like, regardless of anything we put on paper. See, for example, how far America is from the ideals written into our founding documents. Let's just clean up this mess and have a little liberty for you and me RIGHT NOW! By the way, liberty is not founded on violence. We cannot win liberty by killing people. The secret to liberty is trust and tolerance. The path to liberty is to put more love, trust and especially tolerance into as many hearts as it takes to transform society. The form of government is irrelevant. We could have liberty with a king, a democracy, or even anarchy. When enough hearts are ready to allow others their rights, we will all have our rights. When enough prefer security and come from fear of their fellow-men, we will have tyranny. The words on constitutions and the promises of politicians are all just so much dust blowing around in the wind. A free-loving society will be free. A security-loving society will be enslaved. It's really just that simple. History and logic prove that statement. I say let's restore our liberty, then we can discuss the finer points of its origins. Ken At 10:00 AM -0700 10/24/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. Forwarded from the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]: From: Book Search Co-ordinator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Conspiracy Theory and Libertarianism Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 11:05 AM My my, James, what a change. You've moved from your usual name calling and abuse to something with some substance. [Not very much substance, as we shall see below, but any improvement is welcome.] Oh come off it, James. You know very well, if you are half as educated as you claim to be, that the modern tradition of liberty originated as an ENGLISH reaction to the failed ENGLISH Revolution of the 17th Century, and that the American Revolution of a hundred years later was simply a continuance of that dissident tradition. James Responds: Your ethocentrism is a bit telling Craig. Liberty, I am sure, has a wider pedigree than you imply. Further, the modern tradition of liberty is just about extinguished, esp. in Britain...perhaps because it was always more fraud than reality. Forwarded for info and discussion from the New Paradigms Discussion List, not necessarily endorsed by: *** Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273, Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the entire political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly journal, book sales, rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly Up-date Lists E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, resources. To Discuss Ideas: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://msen.com/~lloyd/ For Ordering Info Free Catalog: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://a-albionic.com/formaddress.html For Discussion List: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] text in body: subscribe prj [EMAIL PROTECTED] **FREE RARE BOOK SEARCH: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Explore Our Archive: http://a-albionic.com/a-albionic.html Every Diet Has Failed! What Can I do? Click Below to "Ask Dr. Kathleen"! http://www.radiantdiet.com/cgi-bin/slim/deliver.cgi?ask-1364 *** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory
[CTRL] Conspiracy Theory and Libertarianism
-Caveat Lector- .. Forwarded from the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]: From: Book Search Co-ordinator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Conspiracy Theory and Libertarianism Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 11:05 AM My my, James, what a change. You've moved from your usual name calling and abuse to something with some substance. [Not very much substance, as we shall see below, but any improvement is welcome.] Oh come off it, James. You know very well, if you are half as educated as you claim to be, that the modern tradition of liberty originated as an ENGLISH reaction to the failed ENGLISH Revolution of the 17th Century, and that the American Revolution of a hundred years later was simply a continuance of that dissident tradition. James Responds: Your ethocentrism is a bit telling Craig. Liberty, I am sure, has a wider pedigree than you imply. Further, the modern tradition of liberty is just about extinguished, esp. in Britain...perhaps because it was always more fraud than reality. The 17th Century English revolution was a Religious revolution. Basically, the Puritans wanted control of the State to impose their own tyranny as opposed to the tyranny of a Catholic or Church of England power structure! Liberty had little or nothing to do with it. Surely, Britain did evolve fairly decent traditions of tolerance, liberty and law prior to Continental Religious tyrannies like France, Russia, etc Learning from the exhaustion of the religious wars and an infusion of the French Enlightenment of Voltaire, the Illuminati, etc. America was Established with a better tradition of Liberty, but mostly, as Spooner and others have shown, liberty was often just a rationalization for a new Oligarchy and more subtle tyranny. Too bad the Federalists beat the anti-Federalists. You just simply don't seem to be able to read, James. If you will look at what I said, it was not that the dominate institutions in either Britain or the U.S. were libertarian but that the modern tradition of liberty [i.e., LIBERTARIANISM] that arose as a REACTION to the FAILED English Revolution. I don't think that this is a bit ethnocentric, since if you bother to look at the French and Russian traditions of liberty you will find that (1) they were largely inspired by the very roots I point to, rather than having a domestic origin and (2) they were highly flawed from the outset [see Hayek's essays on "Liberty: True and False" etc.] The Italian liberty movement is something else entirely, but no one in the U.S. seems very familiar with that tradition in any case, and since I live in the U.S. my silly ethnocentrism [to say nothing of pragmatism] tends to focus on what matters here rather than in the remnants of East Prussia. or, to put it more bluntly, that I'm working from reality and you're working from fantasy. I make a whole series of substantive criticisms of the way that you go about your analysis of the world, and, instead of focusing on any of those points or responding to any of those points, you say I'm "lying about you" because you really didn't mean that it was a bad thing that Reagan and the Pope "conspired" to liberate Poland. [Then why did you bring it up as a "conspiracy" James? Isn't a "conspiracy" a bad thing in your world?] James Responds: You will never catch me saying conspiracy is necessarily a "bad" thing...it is constant and everywhere and relative. The Pope and Reagan's plan was good for US Imperialism, bad for Soviet Imperialism, problematical for British Imperialism, good for the Germans etc. Well then, James, why is conspiracy so central to your analysis of how the world works, one might say the only element of your analysis? If conspiracy per se is a neutral thing, and merely a natural tendency of individuals seeking the aid and assistance of their fellows, why are you so obsessed with conspiracies? The primary persons that historically have been similarly so obsessed have been royalists or other supporters of some established order of things that see a "conspiracy" [usually inspired by Satan or mad anarchists] to disrupt their holy institutions. James Responds: I can't help it that so many libertarians are rock headed about conspiratorial ruling class theory. The government is obviously a conspiracy against libertyAm I obsessed with conspiracy or are "normal people" just blind as bats? Let's assume for the moment that there is such a thing as "the government" [which there isn't], then the result of your observation that it is engaged in a "conspiracy against liberty" is, what exactly, James? Is the result that we should swallow just any urban legend that someone comes up with about what "the government' is up to now? Is the implication that since "the government" is engaged in a "conspiracy against liberty" that we should be worried about the Pope or the Royal Family taking over and striping us of whatever liberty we have
[CTRL] Conspiracy Theory and Libertarianism
-Caveat Lector- .. Forwarded from the New Paradigms Project [Not Necessarily Endorsed]: From: Book Search Co-ordinator [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Conspiracy Theory and Libertarianism Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 11:05 AM My my, James, what a change. You've moved from your usual name calling and abuse to something with some substance. [Not very much substance, as we shall see below, but any improvement is welcome.] Oh come off it, James. You know very well, if you are half as educated as you claim to be, that the modern tradition of liberty originated as an ENGLISH reaction to the failed ENGLISH Revolution of the 17th Century, and that the American Revolution of a hundred years later was simply a continuance of that dissident tradition. James Responds: Your ethocentrism is a bit telling Craig. Liberty, I am sure, has a wider pedigree than you imply. Further, the modern tradition of liberty is just about extinguished, esp. in Britain...perhaps because it was always more fraud than reality. The 17th Century English revolution was a Religious revolution. Basically, the Puritans wanted control of the State to impose their own tyranny as opposed to the tyranny of a Catholic or Church of England power structure! Liberty had little or nothing to do with it. Surely, Britain did evolve fairly decent traditions of tolerance, liberty and law prior to Continental Religious tyrannies like France, Russia, etc Learning from the exhaustion of the religious wars and an infusion of the French Enlightenment of Voltaire, the Illuminati, etc. America was Established with a better tradition of Liberty, but mostly, as Spooner and others have shown, liberty was often just a rationalization for a new Oligarchy and more subtle tyranny. Too bad the Federalists beat the anti-Federalists. You just simply don't seem to be able to read, James. If you will look at what I said, it was not that the dominate institutions in either Britain or the U.S. were libertarian but that the modern tradition of liberty [i.e., LIBERTARIANISM] that arose as a REACTION to the FAILED English Revolution. I don't think that this is a bit ethnocentric, since if you bother to look at the French and Russian traditions of liberty you will find that (1) they were largely inspired by the very roots I point to, rather than having a domestic origin and (2) they were highly flawed from the outset [see Hayek's essays on "Liberty: True and False" etc.] The Italian liberty movement is something else entirely, but no one in the U.S. seems very familiar with that tradition in any case, and since I live in the U.S. my silly ethnocentrism [to say nothing of pragmatism] tends to focus on what matters here rather than in the remnants of East Prussia. or, to put it more bluntly, that I'm working from reality and you're working from fantasy. I make a whole series of substantive criticisms of the way that you go about your analysis of the world, and, instead of focusing on any of those points or responding to any of those points, you say I'm "lying about you" because you really didn't mean that it was a bad thing that Reagan and the Pope "conspired" to liberate Poland. [Then why did you bring it up as a "conspiracy" James? Isn't a "conspiracy" a bad thing in your world?] James Responds: You will never catch me saying conspiracy is necessarily a "bad" thing...it is constant and everywhere and relative. The Pope and Reagan's plan was good for US Imperialism, bad for Soviet Imperialism, problematical for British Imperialism, good for the Germans etc. Well then, James, why is conspiracy so central to your analysis of how the world works, one might say the only element of your analysis? If conspiracy per se is a neutral thing, and merely a natural tendency of individuals seeking the aid and assistance of their fellows, why are you so obsessed with conspiracies? The primary persons that historically have been similarly so obsessed have been royalists or other supporters of some established order of things that see a "conspiracy" [usually inspired by Satan or mad anarchists] to disrupt their holy institutions. James Responds: I can't help it that so many libertarians are rock headed about conspiratorial ruling class theory. The government is obviously a conspiracy against libertyAm I obsessed with conspiracy or are "normal people" just blind as bats? Let's assume for the moment that there is such a thing as "the government" [which there isn't], then the result of your observation that it is engaged in a "conspiracy against liberty" is, what exactly, James? Is the result that we should swallow just any urban legend that someone comes up with about what "the government' is up to now? Is the implication that since "the government" is engaged in a "conspiracy against liberty" that we should be worried about the Pope or the Royal Family taking over and striping us of whatever liberty we have
