[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Flags (was: Ashcroft-The Artful Dodger)
-Caveat Lector- June, I suggest you read the following historical document taken from the archives of your own state. Note none of the 7-12 years as you stated and and the slaves were "without wage." This is the exact opposite of your claim. Of course I am not talking about the legislation leading to the actual outbreak of war but going back a bit to the way things were in northern states from the last of the 1600 until around 1800. Your description bears no resemblance to the truth of the matter. This petition, which the governor did not even bother to present to the legislature states that the slaves in Connecticut were born in this country in slavery and died in slavery without wages. This is the guilt which you attempt to project onto the south alone as though these things did not happen in the north but they most certainly did. I suggest you get yourself a history book as you are full of false information and revisionist claims. You often stat the you are all for truth but you post fabrications. Of course later situations changed because otherwise the north would have been fighting itself. And counting conditions in territories at the outbreak of war has nothing to do with the fact that slavery existed in the states that were states prior to al the legislation and conflicts beginning. The document is posted below which tells the truth of this "benevolent" northern slavery which you fabricate. Amelia Documents menu Petition of 1780 by slaves for the abolition of slavery in Connecticut Unto your Honner the govener and all the wise men of the State of Connecticut which it hath Plesed god to Permit to gather at Hartford unto you we the the Poor and opresed Negro Sarvents of this Town By and with the advice of Each other and By the Desier of all the Negro Sarvents in this State Do in a most humble maner Criy unto you for Liberty alltho we have Desiered this faver from your honners Time after Time yet we are Not Discuriged But Do Still intend to Beag this faver from Time to Time tho you Should not grant us our Desiers this Time - We are all of us the Same mind as we was when we asked this advantige of your honners Last may that our marsters have no more Rite to make us Searve them then we have to make our Marsters Searve us and we have Resen to wonder that our Case has not Ben taken into Consideration So fare as to Grant us our Libertys But we must consider what the Book of Eceleisastes says at 8 Chapter at the 11 varce Because Sentence aganst an Evel work is not Executed Speedily theirfore the hart of the Sons of men is fully Set in them to do Evel - and for this Reson we Think our Cause is Not Regarded and we Still must Say as Jeremiah Says in his Lamentations at the 5 Chapter at the 5 varce Our necks are under Persecution we Labour and have no rest - But we are in good hopes that your honners will Take Notis of our Case and Do unto us as you would be Glad that we Should Do unto you if we was in your Condishon and you in ours But it hath Plesed god to Place us in the Sitawaytion we are now in But we Pray to god that he would Send forth his Good Spirit into your harts and Remind you of your Duty and make you the Instermints of Binding up the Brokenharted and of Proclaiming Liberty to the Captives and the opening of the Prison to them that are Bound We ask your good Will to Look upon us and we Criy unto you in the words of Job at the 19 Chapter at the 21 varce Have Pity upon me have Pity upon me o ye my frindes - But we Still Look unto god Who Pursarves Both the Servent and the marster for we Know that in the 140 Psalm at the 12 varces That we have a Sartin Promos viz. I Know that the Lord will maintain the Cause of the afflicted and the Right of the Poor and we think that it is time for us to Criy aloud for our Liberty for No Son of man will give his Sarvent his Time unless he Thinks that he Dos Roung in Keeping off him and So Considers that their is a wa Ppurnounced aganst those that Take a way their Neighbours Servise with wages and giveth him Not for his work Jeremiah at the 22 Chapter at the 13 varce wo unto him that Buildeth his house By Unriteousness and without wages and giveth him Not for his work and when their is a man that will give his Searvent his Liberty we must think that he Considers what the word of God Says in the 34 Chapter and the 10 varces of the Book of Jeremiah viz. Now when all the Princes and all the people which had Entered into the Covenent heard that Every one Should Let his maid Searvent and Every one his man Servent go free that None Should Serve themselves of them any more then they obeyed and Let them go and We wish that all our marsters would consider the word of God as Job Did and Consider the Cause of his man Servent and of his maid Servent when we Contend with our marsters But we Cant find Such men as will other give or Sell ous Liberty we all Both young and old Do ask
[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Flags (was: Ashcroft-The Artful Dodger)
-Caveat Lector- June, Well, the Southern states were not the only states where the institution of slavery was practiced. I believe all states had it prior to TWBTS, some a few years back from that time/event. They cleverly sold theirs into the South just prior to the outbreak of the war. Some gave them letters of freedom but many just "dumped" them right before the outbreak of conflict. Also, remember the Emmmancipation Proclamation was not signed until 1864, after a state of general starvation existed in the South. Then the slaves were freed with no way to feed themselves, etc. other than trying to take from people who were already starving. This was careful timing to ensure maximum harm being done to all parties. Slavery is certainly a crime against humanity but all parties here were guilty of practicing it. So have many "civilizations" such as Egyptian, et al. But I do not care if you and Bill burn the Stars and Bars because if we were going to protest too much, something should have been done to stop the KKK from using it so much. They also use the American flag but nobody protests that either. I have seen other strange flags waved around by the KKK that I do not recognize, either. Some look rather "original" and I suspect are of their own design or lack thereof. It (SB) was not a design in the original state flags, either, but incorporated around the time of desegregation, so removing it should not create a big problem. In Montgomery, there is the former capitol of the Confederacy where it flies and people often mistakenly think it is the state capitol. I think it should remain over the historic capitol of the Confederacy, however. Someone on this list mentioned the KKK flag-wavers not being descendents of original slave owners and that is for sure. The KKK hates former slave-owning class and blames them for the presence of Blacks in general It never occurred to me that people do not realize this. They contend "We picked our own cotton and they could have , too." They are by-and-largely two different groups entirely. Of course having married a Latin American and failing to keep the race "pure" qualifies me for special hatred by this particular group. Guess they are not into widening of the gene pool and all of that. I know I live around some members of the KKK but they have shown any sign of being concerned about my presence in any way. Hopefully, it is me in theory and not personally to whom they object. Also, the SB often appears on beach towels and swimming trunks, etc as does the British Union Jack. This is not especially respectful display and has made it into more of an icon of trivia. Re: WWII and civilian populations. If it was collateral damage originally aimed at military targets, I suppose it could not be helped. If, however, civilians and human suffering of same was the object I think it was very wrong. I can think of one incident, Dresden, where this would apply. I am sleep depraved today and the "detail police" who ignore the big picture and concentrate on details may get me on this but my memory from reading long ago only says the civilian population of Dresden tried for three days to surrender and Allied troops ignored this attempt and bombed the hell out of them, retribution and rage. I think that was wrong, if accurate. More recently, the Balkans come to mind where some of our actions were highly questionable like the "enemy tractor" and train bombings. Amelia - Original Message - From: "Ynr Chyldz Wyld" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Flags (was: Ashcroft-The Artful Dodger) -Caveat Lector- From: "Amelia" [EMAIL PROTECTED] These things are considered war crimes by civilized people. Perhaps. But what about the crimes against humanity the Confederate States of America sought to perpetuate in the 'institution' of human slavery. The Allies burned much of Germany in WWII, also...including "homes, mostly, crops in fields, schools, churches, hospitals and every mile of railroad track existing at the time as well as all civilian food reserves"... Do you consider them guilty of war crimes, too? June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives
[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Flags (was: Ashcroft-The Artful Dodger)
-Caveat Lector- June, What a lovely fairy tale you have concocted concerning slavery in the northern states! Reread my sentence, too. I said they EITHER gave them letters of freedom OR just dumped them. meaning sold them in the South in an especially timely manner, only when it was evident they were going to be freed anyway. Ditto those letters of freedom--only after it was imminent anyway. Hardly the magnanimous gesture you attempt to fabricate. If my sentence makes no sense to you, it is your reading deficiency as it is perfectly clear what I have stated. You often use the "no sense" tactic when you do not like what you are reading. There were not that many states admitted in the Missouri Compromise and they were Midwestern with low populations at the time. I have personally seen a slave auction house in Illinois. New England where you live is where the most slaves were. Talk about your revisionist history! Southern slaves were often given letters of freedom also and many did not leave their original homes even after receiving their letters. It had become economically unfeasible in the South to maintain large slave populations on individual farms and would have been eliminated anyway but Lincoln wanted the credit, so it became a pretext..And "freeing" them with no means to provide for themselves was not the best way this could have been handled. The factories of New England wanted the adult slaves to replace the children they were using as slaves in their factories without the expense of having the cradle to grave responsibility of slaves. Here was their chance to have former slaves without having any investment in them. They paid them a sub-slave wage and hoped to lure them there with false promises to work in their factories instead of the children they employed at the time. I always wonder why so many Blacks stay in the evil South. One would think they would escape by any means. The latest census confirms that since 1970 they have been returning in large numbers now that there are jobs in the area. Of course NAFTA has eliminated lots of those. But I cannot help but wonder why they stayed right after TWBTS in such large numbers. They could have all left the region and come to live in the Northeast but most did not and stayed. The treatment and conditions varied greatly from situation to situation in the South also and there was no standard just as there was no standard for the way people were treated within families. And yes, that is exactly what I am saying, that whites shared what food they had with blacks for whom they were responsible. That is well documented and you are the first person I have ever heard claim otherwise. But you fabricate a nice story. And it is a way to project the national guilt onto one section instead of all guilty parties facing up to their own participation in a system that was morally wrong. How convenient! Amelia - Original Message - From: "Ynr Chyldz Wyld" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Flags (was: Ashcroft-The Artful Dodger) -Caveat Lector- From: "Amelia" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, the Southern states were not the only states where the institution of slavery was practiced. I believe all states had it prior to TWBTS, some a few years back from that time/event. No, that is wrong. Free states admitted under the Missori Compromise never allowed slavery within their borders... And those northern states that had at one time had slavery had outlawed it long before the war. Also, in northern states slavery had been utilized in a much different manner than in the south...in the north, a slave could redeem him or herself, either by buying their freedom (if they were lucky enough to be able to save enough), or by serving as a slave for a set period of time; I believe this varied from state to state, but was usually from 7 to 12 years. At the end of their term of service, the slave was ruled to have redeemed his or her worth and was then set free. In many northern states, slave owners were also required to pay their slaves wages, albeit much lower wages than required of a free man or woman... They cleverly sold theirs into the South just prior to the outbreak of the war. Some gave them letters of freedom but many just "dumped" them right before the outbreak of conflict. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If these imaginary northern slaveowners gave their slaves letters of freedom, that can hardly be considered 'dumping' them. And if these imaginary slaves had letters of freedom, how could they be sold into slavery in the south? Also, remember the Emmmancipation Proclamation was not signed until 1864, after a state of general starvation existed in the South. Then the slaves were freed with no way to feed themselves, etc. other than trying to take from people who were already starving. So you wish us to believe that prior to the
[CTRL] Fw: Re: [CTRL] Flags (was: Ashcroft-The Artful Dodger)
We know how you folks like to burn things "Confederate"! Homes, mostly, crops in fields, schools, churches, hospitalsand every mile of railroad track existing at the time as well as all civilian food reserves. Yes, I believe this was the most successful scorched earth policy ever. These things are considered war crimes by civilized people. Amelia - Original Message - Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Flags (was: Ashcroft-The Artful Dodger) In a message dated 2/2/01 9:26:18 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don't know about Samantha, but I know _I_ would burn the Confederate flag 'and all for which it stands for', in a heartbeat...Me too...and have actually... Bill.
