Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]]
-Caveat Lector- Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- Scott Brown wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Scott Brown wrote: -Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. There is no intellectual honesty in this statement. Intellectual honesty has nothing to do with amending our constitution. And so then, what other instrument of death would you ban next? Cars? How 'bout drugs? Knives? Scott Brown Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and tired of your mantra Thank God, you're in the minority. If I'm in the minority now, I won't be for long. Just wait until the next massacre. Most real Americans believe in the law of the land and many died defending same. Oh cut the crap. I'm as real an American as you are, and slavery was once the law of the land. Laws change as society changes. I think we are all sick and tired of crime created by .3% of the population causing others to want to pass laws not affecting the law breakers, but the rest of the population. I'm not talking about crime. I'm talking about a huge population awash in lethal weapons. Too many people with too many guns. That's the problem. Not who has them. Don't you know these kids broke many gun laws already on the books? What makes you think that passing new laws or outlawing guns with affect criminals? Of course more gun laws won't work. I'm talking about taking all your guns away. Then let's see what happens. No guns in the general population. Like Japan and England used to be. That's what makes criminals, criminals! They break laws! Yeah right. They are bad, bad people. . We would like to get guns out of daily life and see what happens. If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will stay. It only leads to despotism. look in your history books. Can you name the last country that gave up guns that its citizens are still free and crime did not go up? Balli? No guns. It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its about time. Fortunately, we have more mature, level headed people making laws in this country. It only takes fifty one percent responding to their constituency. Joshua2 You can believe that making guns illegal is an eventuality all you want. Why is it that the folks that claim nobody needs guns are also most often the people who believe our government has the interest of the people in in mind? Not me I'm not one of those. Just like believing that you can disarm the public, this is pure fantasy. I will tell you this, if you think you are going to take away my right to defend myself and others as well, why don't you just try it and see what happens. Oooh scary. I'm sure the Branch Davidians and the Black Panthers and Randy Weaver are just as scary as you are. Just scare the gun grabbers off by waving your guns and yelling as loud as you can..." over my dead body!" Do the names Darwin, or Custer mean anything to you? Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: -Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scott Brown wrote: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance. You may be interested to know that the 2nd amendment confers no rights on the citizens of the United States. Neither does the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, 7th, 8th, ect. When you read any of those mentioned, please realize that they are not referring to the citizens. Those amendments specifically refer to the government. They forbid government from passing laws infringing those rights. To repeal the 2nd simple means that the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms still exist. All you're removing is the ability of the government to pass laws infringing those rights. The rights still predate the constitution but you know how the government has such a problem playing by the rules. By the way, which one of the next bill of right amendments are you willing to drop? Free Speech? Freedom of Religion? Do you realize that all of the bill of rights is resting on the 2nd? No, you say? Name one other country that had it's weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a Democracy. Jim Norman This amendment is 200 years old. It was written for a different society with a tiny population. This is a different world. A different society with different problems. This America is way overpopulated in certain places and suffers from many injustices that result in a considerable segment of the population mentally unfit for the responsible use of firearms. When you add that fact to the additional problem of accidental deaths due to firearms, you get an appalling death toll. It's really absurd for gun nuts to keep pointing to the 2nd Am. It has become irrelevant in modern America. You think guns are cool and I don't. When enough people think like me, guns will be removed from this sick society, and we'll go from there. It might be a mistake or it might not. But you gun nuts will not prevent the rest of us from finding out. The Colorado killings have turned the tide. I think you guys see the writing on the wall. To accommodate those of you who just can't live with that, I would set aside a " reservation " where any American can go live with their guns. Think of it as a free fire zone. How about Idaho? As for hunters, how about this suggestion? All hunting in the state of Idaho would take place between three and three thirty AM on the first Sunday in June. All hunters would be confined to a very large corral where a helicopter would drop hundreds of live chickens, and the hunters could only shoot the chickens once they hit the ground. There would be no limit on kills. Ahh. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: -Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scott Brown wrote: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance. You may be interested to know that the 2nd amendment confers no rights on the citizens of the United States. Neither does the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, 7th, 8th, ect. When you read any of those mentioned, please realize that they are not referring to the citizens. Those amendments specifically refer to the government. They forbid government from passing laws infringing those rights. To repeal the 2nd simple means that the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms still exist. All you're removing is the ability of the government to pass laws infringing those rights. The rights still predate the constitution but you know how the government has such a problem playing by the rules. By the way, which one of the next bill of right amendments are you willing to drop? Free Speech? Freedom of Religion? Do you realize that all of the bill of rights is resting on the 2nd? No, you say? Name one other country that had it's weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a Democracy. Jim Norman This amendment is 200 years old. It was written for a different society with a tiny population. All the amendments are old, and were written for a country destined to grow. They was no mention about how these laws should change due to growth. If fact growth only exacerbated the problems. What ever problems that existed then, still exist today. You fail to respond to the challenge "Name one other country that had it's weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a Democracy." This is a different world. A different society with different problems. The more things change, the more they stay the same! A different society? I agree. Different problems? I don't think so. Why do you think the 10 commandments are still revaent today? This America is way overpopulated in certain places and suffers from many injustices that result in a considerable segment of the population mentally unfit for the responsible use of firearms. Not even close. The considerable segment is the normal people who would never think about pulling a gun except to defend them selves. These idiots who shoot up schools are such a infinitesimal fraction that it is also insignificant. If it were not for the press giving so much coverage in an attempt to promote the anti-gun agenda, you and I would never have heard about this. When you add that fact to the additional problem of accidental deaths due to firearms, you get an appalling death toll. It's not appalling. accidental deaths are small compaired to other other forms of accidental death. It's really absurd for gun nuts to keep pointing to the 2nd Am. It has become irrelevant in modern America. It's not absurd and you don't have to be a nut to keep a gun. All you have to do is want to protect yourself and your family. The 2nd amendment will become irrelevant when a Constitutional Convention is held, a law is passed in both houses repealing the 2nd, that law then presented to the States so that if 3/4 of them accept, then the law can be changed. Until then, it is still the LAW OF THE LAND. You think guns are cool and I don't. I think guns are nothing more than a tool. No different than walking to my tool box and picking up a hammer. I am as careful with that hammer as I am with a gum. Cool is not even a consideration. Accuracy is more important. When enough people think like me, guns will be removed from this sick society, and we'll go from there. If the carpenter is sick, lets take his hammer away? Is that the idea? It might be a mistake or it might not. But you gun nuts will not prevent the rest of us from finding out. I think you Anti-gun nuts have a long way to go. Maybe by then you will see the light and begin doing something constructive ...like helping to solve the social problems. The Colorado killings have turned the tide. I think you guys see the writing on the wall. To accommodate those of you who just can't live with that, I would set aside a " reservation
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]]
-Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Scott Brown wrote: -Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance. Scott Brown Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and tired of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and see what happens. If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will stay. No guns. It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its about time. Joshua2 You can believe that making guns illegal is an eventuality all you want. Why is it that the folks that claim nobody needs guns are also most often the people who believe our government has the interest of the people in in mind? Just like believing that you can disarm the public, this is pure fantasy. I will tell you this, if you think you are going to take away my right to defend myself and others as well, why don't you just try it and see what happens. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- On Tue, 4 May 1999, nurev wrote: Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and tired of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and see what happens. The Constitution is too precious to muck around with just to 'see what happpens' If the death rate drops ( which it will ) No it won't...hasn't dropped anywhere gun control has been enacted, in fact gun deaths have risen... It was easier to buy guns in the 1960s and 1970s, yet we never saw drive-by shootings...now it has been made inordinately difficult for the average, law-abiding citizen to buy a gun, and we see ERs overwhelmed with gun injuries and deaths... I think there should be laws ENCOURAGING people to buy guns and carry them with them everywhere...if MORE people had guns, the crooks and creeps would then have reason to pause and wonder if their intended victims just might shoot back, instead of being 'sitting ducks'... I used to be a strong advocate of gun control...but life ain't the rosy 'peace and love' scenario we envisioned it would become when we were younger...and the plain fact of it is, we need to go back to the vigilante days of the Wild West -- a time when disarming the law- abiding citizenry also would not have worked... It's a sad fact of the current state of affairs, and if you say you hate the idea of our society reverting to 'cowboy justice', you won't get any argument from me...but that doesn't change the FACT that that is the only thing that will work at this point... It also doesn't change the fact that what is lost in this gun control debate is the question of just WHO is orchestrating this scenario, to manipulate the public to be more willing to accept the further erosion of our rights...cui bono? June === Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring! - " Mary Poppins " === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- Other arguments involve the use of personal firearms to ward off domestic tyranny. But if a tyrant controls the most powerful military force on Earth, will personal firearms matter? Really? Again, the 2nd Amendment makes no provision for fighting tyranny, so such arguments are also extra-constitutional. peaceful protest is often more successful than armed resistance. think about it, soldiers aren't robots (although they're pretty damn close), and it's gonna take a lot of persuasion to persuade a soldier that shooting a large group of civilians is a good idea. sure, that nazis managed it, but then the nazis had a ridiculous ideaology to follow and brainwash people with. people are less likely to kill for the benefit of some fat asshole in a suit. the key to resisting tyranny is organisation and POPULAR revolt, not small pockets of armed resistance, because let's face it, if they really want you dead, all the machine guns and the pill-boxes in the world won't stop them, they'll just drop a bomb on your stupid ass. you should remember that the armed services is made up of people as well, like you, and they aren't evil, if you can persuade the army not to shoot you, then all is well, if you can't, then you've probably got the wrong approach to resisting tyranny DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: I think there should be laws ENCOURAGING people to buy guns and carry them with them everywhere...if MORE people had guns, the crooks and creeps would then have reason to pause and wonder if their intended victims just might shoot back, instead of being 'sitting ducks'... After a city up north banned guns within the city limit and got a lot of publicity, a small town north of Atlanta (Kennesaw) enacted a city ordinance requiring every household to have a gun (if you didn't want one, though, there were a lot of ways around the law). The crime rate immediately dropped. Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]]
-Caveat Lector- Scott Brown wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Scott Brown wrote: -Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. There is no intellectual honesty in this statement. Intellectual honesty has nothing to do with amending our constitution. And so then, what other instrument of death would you ban next? Cars? How 'bout drugs? Knives? Scott Brown Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and tired of your mantra Thank God, you're in the minority. Most real Americans believe in the law of the land and many died defending same. I think we are all sick and tired of crime created by .3% of the population causing others to want to pass laws not affecting the law breakers, but the rest of the population. Don't you know these kids broke many gun laws already on the books? What makes you think that passing new laws or outlawing guns with affect criminals? That's what makes criminals, criminals! They break laws! . We would like to get guns out of daily life and see what happens. If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will stay. It only leads to despotism. look in your history books. Can you name the last country that gave up guns that its citizens are still free and crime did not go up? No guns. It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its about time. Fortunately, we have more mature, level headed people making laws in this country. Joshua2 You can believe that making guns illegal is an eventuality all you want. Why is it that the folks that claim nobody needs guns are also most often the people who believe our government has the interest of the people in in mind? Just like believing that you can disarm the public, this is pure fantasy. I will tell you this, if you think you are going to take away my right to defend myself and others as well, why don't you just try it and see what happens. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- [snip] Tyranny was the sole reason the 2nd Amendment came about, idiot... June You go girl...! Jim DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- Scott Brown wrote: -Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance. Scott Brown Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and tired of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and see what happens. If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will stay. No guns. It's going to happen. There is nothing you can do about it. And its about time. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scott Brown wrote: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance. Disgusting or not you'll have to deal with it. Many of us are sick and tired of your mantra. We would like to get guns out of daily life and see what happens. If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will stay. No guns. Rather than chant mantras from any side of the question, it may be useful to examine the basis and reality of the current situation. The 2nd Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being neces- sary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." [Some [people quibble over the existence of certain commas in there.] What does it mean? [Note that the Founders purposely worded this Amendment so that we'd have something to argue over. The clever bastards...] As stated, the "right to bear arms" is about STATE security, not individual self-protection. Arguments about guns being necessary for self-protection are thus extra-constitutional. The necessity of a WELL-REGULATED militia is stated; arguments that gun control is unconstitutional are thus bogus. The Founders did not specify what they considered to be "arms", usable weapons. Did they mean personal firearms, military weapons, or any combative materials? So we get down to the crux: Are personal firearms or any other weaponry, now, today, necessary for State security? To evaluate that question, we need to ask other questions: Just what *are* the threats to State security? Are these threats defensible by a Militia armed with personal firearms or other weaponry? Who ya gonna fight, and with what? So, what are the real threats? Terrorists with explosives or NBC [Nuclear/Biological/Chemical] weapons; enemy states employing same, delivered by strategic or tactical means; crippling of the power, transport and/or information infrastructures via cyberwar; propa- ganda, disinformation, "memes"; armed invasion of the continental US [CONUS]; attack from outer space by advanced extraterrestrials. We might not be able to do much against ETs with ANY weaponry. An armed invasion of CONUS seems rather unlikely IMHO, although I'm sure many would disagree with me. That leaves terrorists, tactical/strategic NBC/X attacks, and infowar. Are any of these threats defensible with personal firearms? Really? Other arguments involve the use of personal firearms to ward off domestic tyranny. But if a tyrant controls the most powerful military force on Earth, will personal firearms matter? Really? Again, the 2nd Amendment makes no provision for fighting tyranny, so such arguments are also extra-constitutional. I don't have any good answers, just a lot more questions. Bother. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: -Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scott Brown wrote: Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance. You may be interested to know that the 2nd amendment confers no rights on the citizens of the United States. Neither does the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th 6th, 7th, 8th, ect. When you read any of those mentioned, please realize that they are not referring to the citizens. Those amendments specifically refer to the government. They forbid government from passing laws infringing those rights. To repeal the 2nd simple means that the pre-existing right to keep and bear arms still exist. All you're removing is the ability of the government to pass laws infringing those rights. The rights still predate the constitution but you know how the government has such a problem playing by the rules. By the way, which one of the next bill of right amendments are you willing to drop? Free Speech? Freedom of Religion? Do you realize that all of the bill of rights is resting on the 2nd? No, you say? Name one other country that had it's weapons removed from the citizens that survived as a Republic, or even a Democracy. Jim Norman DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: We would like to get guns out of daily life and see what happens. If the death rate drops ( which it will ) then that's the way it will stay. I recently got the following e-mail suggesting that your assertion that the death rate would drop is incorrect. However, if there is a rise in tyranny (as many who disagree with your proposal suggest), then your suggestion that the gun ban will stay in place will be correct. Howard Davis AUSTRALIA SEES MAJOR CRIME INCREASE AFTER GOVERNMENT FIREARMS BAN The results are in from Australia after theAustralian government banned firearms and forced the country's gun-owners to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, and the results are what we expected. In just one year after the government ban went into effect, costing the Citizens of Australia their rights the government more than 500-million dollars, a dramatic increase in criminal activity has occurred, including a whopping 44% increase in armed robberies. Despite the increase in violent crime, gun control advocates within the country continue to take a wait-and-see attitude. Since the firearm ban in Australia: * Homicides are up 3.2%; * Assaults are up 8.6%; and * Armed robberies up 44%. In the Australian state of Victoria, homicides with firearms increased 300% despite the government ordered ban. Statistics show that in the 25-years previous of the ban, there had been a steady decrease in homicides with firearms and in armed robbery with firearms. Additionally, there has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly throughout the Country. At the time the ban went into effect, Australian government officials said they believed that seIf-deefense was not a reason for owing firearms. From 1910 until the year prior to the ban, homicides in Australia had averaged about 1.8 per 100,000 or lower, and was considered a safe society by the world's standards. Australian politicians are now at a loss to explain why no improvement in safety has been observed after the monumental effort and expense was made in banning firearms from the society. Their response has sirnply been to wait longer. Sporting Shooter's Association of AustraliaExecutive Director Keith TidsweIl noted the citizens of the United States are fortunate because of the activity of pro- firearm organizations like TSRA (Texas State Rifle Association) and NRA (National Rifle Association). "The best organization you've got there (in the U.S.) is the NRA. We don't have an organization that size and as a consequence, we suffered. We hope that you don't suffer." Membership in Tidswell's organization has risen 200% in response to the ban as an attempt to organize against further controls, which are expected throughout the country. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] A Modest Proposal]
-Caveat Lector- Robert Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- At the risk of being massively flamed, I am compelled by a sense of intellectual honesty to propose that the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. What is at issue is not some supposed innate right to keep and bear arms. What is at issue is the culture of violence that puts firearms on a pedestal and worships them. What is at issue is the culture of violence that insists on "getting even" instead of resolving conflicts. Two hundred years ago, it might have been possible to defend yourself against an oppressive government by shooting the excise agent. But that just isn't possible today--nor is it desirable. The world is too complex a place today, and the weapons at the government's disposal too powerful, for so simplistic a solution to work. You have no more right to keep and bear arms than you have to own and operate an automobile. All property "rights" are contingent on the permission of the state; the state grants such rights, and the state can take away those rights if circumstances warrant. I submit that the time has come when we, as a society, can no longer afford to permit individuals to own and use firearms. Further, I submit that firearms manufacturers are primarily responsible for the *illegal* sale of firearms, and should therefore be subjected to stringent governmental regulation and limited to production of firearms for the armed services of the United States. If the gun lobby insists on labeling this proposal as a conspiracy to undermine citizens' "rights," I will respond by suggesting that the gun lobby itself is part of an elaborate conspiracy to undermine the lawful authority of the United States government, substituting the rule of force for the rule of law. Surely, if a secret supranational organization such as the Illuminati really exists, whose objective is to submerge all national identities in a global culture, eliminating national governments in favor of a strengthened United Nations, then they would choose to work *not* through the Federal government...but through organizations and individuals who want to weaken the U.S. government to the point where it effectively no longer exists. Such a conspiracy would be much more likely to use a group like the NRA or the Libertarian Party than the FBI or the BATF as its instrument. Let me repeat my proposal: the time has come to repeal the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. Doing so would demonstrate more clearly than any other possible action that the people of the United States have genuinely grown up, that we are now mature enough that we do not need the crutch of firearms to maintain our self-esteem. Bob Personally, I feel it would be a waste of my time to devote the time and energy that is necessary to properly convey how your proposal dissgusts me. So what I will say is this, I hope that you remember your decision if we are deprived of our right to defend ourselves against tyranny. In the remaining part of this year, and the next 3 or 4, you will see the error of this ignorance. Scott Brown = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
