No Subject
Subject: twisted little fiddler Friday February 25 2:11 PM ET Frenchman Sentenced in Card Fraud Case PARIS (Reuters) - A French computer scientist who found a way to fool cash machines into giving him $2,000 every 15 minutes was given a 10-month suspended prison term Friday. Serge Humpich, who tried to sell his discovery to others rather than use it himself to buy goods, was found guilty by a Paris court of forgery and fraudulent access to an automated data system. Humpich, 36, told the court he had not been looking to steal when he cracked an algorithm enabling communication between bank cards and machines, thus infiltrating France's Cartes Bancaires interbank payments system. Humpich, who is appealing against the decision, found a way to have his home-made smart card answer ``yes'' whenever a machine asked it if he had typed in the correct PIN code. ``It was crazy -- I could communicate with the central computer and let myself in via any network. (I was) the only person in the world that could take out 15,000 francs ($2,238) every quarter of an hour and buy absolutely everything I wanted,'' Humpich told Friday's Liberation newspaper. Humpich never profited from his discovery. Instead he approached Cartes Bancaires through a lawyer and offered to sell them his secret. But the company rejected his offer and alerted the Interior Ministry. He was arrested last September and fired from his job as a computer engineer. His lawyer said the discovery had advanced science. But the company's lawyer called Humpich a ``twisted little fiddler.''
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Aaron wrote: On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:48:11 -0500, Sunder wrote: FYI: corporations don't own my ass. I'd say the reverse is true though. Ever hear of stock? When you buy it, you own a piece of their asses. Yeah, and you're Ted Turner? Don't equate yourself to the bourgeoisie. You only make me laugh at such foolishness. Bitch please, the basic premise that all men are created equal still holds true. To each his own. I don't strive to be Ted Turner, nor does he strive to be me. That's the thing about freedom. The "worker" is not a synonim for "drone." Laugh all you want, but that's reality. When I buy even a single share of a company, I own a slice of that company. When it does good, I make money, when it doesn't I lose. If I decide the company sucks ass, I can sell it, and it will lose money. Capitalism doesn't dig its own grave. Capitalism provides a very important feedback mechanism. To succeede at it you have to do something right. You can't be lazy and rely on others to provide for you. Speculation is a form of laziness our capitalism has plenty of. Speculation in what form? Speculating what precisely? But that's not the main flaw of capitalism. Capitalism digs its grave because ultimately it's exploitive to the workers. The government has had to protect workers from the corporations for the sake of corporations. But as the protections are removed... we'll see. And who forces you to work for a particular company? If the place sucks, quit and work elsewhere. IF you can't find work, it's because you're incompetent, or your skills are outdated. You can only blame *YOURSELF* for that. You have no one else to blame. Is that why you turn to communism? Because you're too lazy to learn new skills that are in demand? Protections my ass. No one puts a gun to your head and says you must work here for X amount of dollars doing Y hours a week in Z conditions. It's a free market Mr. Commie. Like auctions, a thing's value is what people are willing to pay for it. Same for your skills. They're worth exactly what the market is willing to pay for it. Same for products and services, they're worth what people are willing to pay for them. Those that suck go the way of the dodo, those that succede make money. If a company mistreats you, you can always walk away, and you can always tell your friends exactly why it sucks and why they shouldn't work there. Hell, and I didn't even mention anything about lawsuits so far. Anyone who gets exploited by any entity does so because they allowed themselves to get that way. Oh, and please, don't give me a strawman about people getting mugged or raped at gunpoint. Were they allowed to carry in the first place, it wouldn't have been an issue. Sorry, but so far, you've not managed to give a single good arguement for communism or why capitalism is bad. It's moronic that you repeatedly spew the party line about how capitalism becomes communism in the long term, when there's no proof of that whatsoever in real life. If anything, quite the contrary, the breakup of Russia proves that communism will rot from the inside out because of capitalism. If anything the corruption inside its government points to bribes as a way of life. What are bribes if not a form capitalism deemed illegal?
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:48:11 -0500, Sunder wrote: FYI: corporations don't own my ass. I'd say the reverse is true though. Ever hear of stock? When you buy it, you own a piece of their asses. Yeah, and you're Ted Turner? Don't equate yourself to the bourgeoisie. You only make me laugh at such foolishness. Capitalism doesn't dig its own grave. Capitalism provides a very important feedback mechanism. To succeede at it you have to do something right. You can't be lazy and rely on others to provide for you. Speculation is a form of laziness our capitalism has plenty of. But that's not the main flaw of capitalism. Capitalism digs its grave because ultimately it's exploitive to the workers. The government has had to protect workers from the corporations for the sake of corporations. But as the protections are removed... we'll see.
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech!
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Reese wrote:
At 01:56 AM 2/26/00 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Sunder wrote:
Oh puhleeze. Research before you speak. I was born in a satelite of Red
Russia. It was a commie state. I remember it all too well. Joe Sixpack
might not give a shit about how much it sucks elsewhere. I do, I was
there.
Irrelevent.
Nope - not irrelevant. First hand knowledge of a socialist regime,
communist variant.
Granted, it's not irrelevent to you: it adds to your knowledge -- and
that is fine. And, telling all of us privledged assholes adds to our
knowledge, so that's ok too .. but the original statement was about
Joe Average's views on Communism. Joe Average isn't on this list. Joe
Average doesn't know this list exists.
Joe Average shouldn't have an opinion on Communism, just like he shouldn't
really have an opinion on relativity.
A lot of people "know" that E=mc^2, and how the speed of light
cannot be exceeded, or how time slows down as you approach relativistic
speed. They read sci-fi .. ask them to explain why, and they can't --
because they don't know anything about it, really. Scientists say this
stuff too, and because the people treat scientists as the new priesthood,
they listen to it, and they believe it.. when in reality, there exists
several good books for the layman on the topic. Of course, trust in
science is bit different anyhow, because of peer review and all.
Which is precisely why trust in the bullshit that the government feeds
us isn't always so wise: many times they have a lock on the information.
Independent information ('a repeated experiment, so to say') is not
available. I don't like trusting in a Pope; regardless of who is wearing
the damn robe.
Joe Average is uninformed. He "knows" that Communist rule sucks.
But he can't explain why. He listens to his government, he listens to
the media, and he believes it without any attempt to verify the
information. He sits back, and lets himself get fed.
Whether or not relativity is actually TRUE, or communism is actually
a threat to free men is irrelevent, because he'll believe the opposite
too (if the propaganda machine were so inclined).
We were talking about allowing the government to think for the people,
rather than the other way around.
Americans condemn Communism usually without even having read the Communist
Manifesto;
70 some years of watching a country flounder then fail, and you want us to
adopt their failed system?
Strawman. I never said this. In fact, I said I don't support Communism.
Thanks for playing though. Insert another quarter?
Americans condemn Communism without knowing shit about Marxist
tenents, and without knowing (or even reading about) the realities of
life under a Stalinist/Maoist rule.
"You will obey me, or die." What else do I need to know about
Stalinist/Maoist rule? You are still an idiot.
_YOU_ don't need to know anything more. If you've lived in that
environment, or have knowledge of it -- now we are talking about an
informed opinion and not mental masturbation. Good deal.
But, the reality of Americans is that they don't know shit about it.
For every horror story you can give them, some asshole can say something
along the lines of "That was a tragedy, yes .. but no where NEAR the
proportions that you make it seem. You need to understand insert
propaganda. It is like the tragedy in America with the Natives. Or
the imprisionment of your Asian population during WWII. That SURELY
doesn't make the U.S. a great evil does it? Neither does this tragedy
make China,USSR,any other fucked up country you like a great evil.
No government is perfect, but we try our best to serve the people
as best as we can."
And the people will buy into it.
Whether or not the people are brainwashed with the truth or not is
not the discussion -- it is that they are brainwashed. Their method
of arriving at their truth, namely, by cuddling up to their Unk'a
Sammy and asking for a bedtime story, is fundamentally flawed --
regardless of whether or not Unk'a Sammy reads a good story or not.
"The answer to our question (what do we do about the poor) is simple:
nothing. We need an impoverished working class to supply cheap labor to
our corporations. They must, after all, turn a profit."
and this is the final irony. In our system, such things may be said
freely, whether they represent the Truth or not. In a socialist system,
such as that would either be a state secret, or be heresy punishable by death.
Agreed. I do _love_ freedom of speech.. and I love using it, and even when
I hate what some shithead is saying, I love watching it being exercised.
Good stuff.
That still doesn't make the brainwashing of my people worth the price.
I love my rights, but I love humans more -- and if pissing away
my right to free speech would wake everyone up from their dogmatic slumber
and get them thinking about just what the hell is going on .. I'd do it
in a
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh puhleeze. Research before you speak. I was born in a satelite of Red Russia. It was a commie state. I remember it all too well. Joe Sixpack might not give a shit about how much it sucks elsewhere. I do, I was there. Irrelevent. No one is arguing that existence under communist rule is a holiday -- or even better than existence in the U.S. The statement is simply that the average american knows dick about the conditions that exist in other nations, and as an aside, is oblivious to the conditions he himself lives in. Irrelevan my ass. I'm offended that you would assume such a thing about anyone. I won't let you escape this arguement by stating "But I said the Average American and you're not average." The average American isnt' knowledgeable about cyphers, or the NSA either for that matter. By talking on this list, you're not talking to the average American, so you can't take that exist hatch. It's irrelevant to this discussion that the Average American(tm) couldn't tell you in 5 seconds where Austra is if you gave him a globe. It's irrelevant to this discussion that the Average American(tm) couldn't tell you how much of his money went to taxes either, or how his car, phone, or computer work. Quite honestly, I know both commie theory and have experienced it on my own back. Remember, I lived in a commie state when I was a kid. I know exactly what the conditions are. Can you say the same? Unlike you, I haven't read Marx in the comfort of my own liberty. I didn't chose to read commie propaganda. It was forced upon me. Repeatedly. I didn't have the luxury of even learning about anything OTHER than communism at the time. Until I escaped the evil clutches of the communist regieme, I had no idea how any other place or how any other system was. I can honestly say that it was brainwashing at its best. No, I didn't believe a word of it because what was said and what was done were at odds with each other. I'm not a blind believer in faith. Just because I've read Marx doesn't mean I'll believe it. Just because I've read the bible, doesn't mean I'll believe it either any more than reading Lovecraft will get me to belive that gigantic intelligent squid and semi-plant/semi-animal elder ones live under the Artic caps either. Bullshit may be entertaining, but it's not reality. Not being able to tell them apart is a bad thing. Americans condemn Communism usually without even having read the Communist Manifesto; and if they HAVE read the Manifesto, they say something good and stupid like "sounds great on paper, but doesn't work in the real world." Americans condemn Communism without knowing shit about Marxist tenents, and without knowing (or even reading about) the realities of life under a Stalinist/Maoist rule. Just because the Average American condems or promotes something doesn't make them wrong either. Why is it do you think that they say "sounds great on paper, but doesn't work in the real world?" How do you know how much the Average American knows or doesn't know? How do you know that lack of firsthand experience or reading it makes them unknowledgeable morons or experts? You're assuming this, no? If not, where's your proof exactly? It is _precisely_ because of this ignorance that makes Anonymous' point so relevent. Look, the Average American will also tell you that getting a hot iron shoved up your ass isn't a good thing either, and I guarantee you that precisely less than 10 Americans have experienced getting a hot iron shoved up their ass. Does that make their point less valid? Do they need to know the medical theories behind why getting a hot iron shoved up your ass is bad for you? Do they need to experience it first hand to know it's bad? No matter how (insert adjective) X is, denouncing it before you know what X actually is, and is not, is rubbish at best .. insanity at worst. My above paragraph proves by counter exaple that your above point is bullshit. I'd take issue with that, in a round-about way. Uncle Sam steals your coin because there are a shit-load of Americans out there with less-than-dick for resources. Any as a side issue, I'll answer that with a question: "Why am I personally responsible for feeding and clothing them?" As a second aside, "why does the money Uncle Sam take from me not reach them?" If it did, we wouldn't have homeless motherfuckers on the streets. The answers to these questions point out just how bad communism/socialism is. To take from the worker as to feed the incompetent is socialism, which is half a step from communism. These unfortunate souls might have taken up, say, basket weaving as a hobby rather than computer programming (unlike the majority of people who are likely to read this list) and as such (since hand-made baskets aren't in particularly high demand these days) are doomed to taking shitbox minimum wage jobs, probably part-time with
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The statement is simply that the average american knows dick about the conditions
that exist in other nations..snip
Americans condemn Communism usually without even having read the Communist
Manifesto;
snip
Americans condemn Communism without knowing shit about Marxist tenents,
snip
It is _precisely_ because of this ignorance that makes Anonymous' point so
relevent.
For every American mouth-breather who calls all Democrats commie bastards, there is
another who laments 'American ignorance'. Both are trite. People the world over, as a
rule, know only what they need to know. For some reason it is more important for
the average German to know where Washington DC is than it is for the average American
to know where Berlin is. People are ignorant all over. Most Euros have warped and
manipulated perceptions of the US, ("it's all LA Law, and black gangs rampaging
through neighborhoods"). If one were to quantify ignorance, one would find that the
U.S. is far from having a corner on its market.
I'd take issue with that, in a round-about way. Uncle Sam steals your coin
because there are a shit-load of Americans out there with less-than-dick
for resources.
Uncle Sam, or any other regime, steals money because it can. Even if the reasons were
honest, (they are not), you accurately define what is going on. It's theft. Some of
us are unwilling to exploit the unfortunate to justify thievery.
Capitalism, with its emphasis on the profit margin can't always afford
to give the working poor a decent wage,
You really believe that, don't you? You've made it clear that you are familiar with
Marx (and, as a result, are also familiar with his idea of the objective nature of
value. Puh.) Have you read any of the Capitalist source texts? The idea isn't about
profit, per se, it's about economic self determination, and about the subjective
nature of value. (Hint: Adam Smith, von Mises, Hayek, Friedman)
therefore we need social programs to help the honest, working poor. And, our caring
Uncle Sammy takes our money to see that this is the case. Fine by me (I'd rather
live here and let Sam have some of my coin than live in say, that Red satellite you
were talking about).
Turn off the BBC long enough to think about the mire into which your logic is sinking
here...
The vast bulk of your beloved social programs have exacerbated poverty, stolen the
souls of the people who are stupid enough to dip their snouts into the trough, cost
the rest of us a great deal of money, and cultivated class warfare. Of course, class
warfare is very *profitable* for those who exploit it as a means to justify their
salaries. If every sanctimonious asshole who would steal my money for the sake of the
"less fortunate" would simply find one person, just one, and do something to improve
that persons life, the so called problem of poverty would be eliminated. But that's
too hard. Better to hire a group of mercenary terrorists to steal other peoples money
and then dole it out...
The name escapes me at the moment, but some Capitalist asshole/theorist
once said something along the lines of:
"The answer to our question (what do we do about the poor) is simple:
nothing. We need an impoverished working class to supply cheap labor to
our corporations. They must, after all, turn a profit."
Therefore Capitalism sucks and Americans are ignorant? Cut the words "cheap labor to
our corporations". Paste "fodder to the bloated government charity rackets" and you
will have an accurate description of the current situation.
With some consideration, it seems obvious to me that in any socio-economic
system that places such high importance on money snip
Here is a truth that you have failed to consider: Money is the measure of a persons
worth to society. It always has been. Complex systems of social and economic
engineering have attempted to deny this, and have killed 100 million people this
century alone in the process.
I don't know what socio-economic system would work best; but I DO know
that I will never like that which places shackles on the souls of men.
People get what they deserve. More often than not, they place the shackles upon
themselves.
Hail Sparta,
Xenophon
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Sunder wrote: Anonymous Sender wrote: It's amusing how the brainwashing shows its ugly face when the appropriate stimulus is applied. For most US subjects it is the "communism" thingie. Oh puhleeze. Research before you speak. I was born in a satelite of Red Russia. It was a commie state. I remember it all too well. Joe Sixpack might not give a shit about how much it sucks elsewhere. I do, I was there. Irrelevent. No one is arguing that existence under communist rule is a holiday -- or even better than existence in the U.S. The statement is simply that the average american knows dick about the conditions that exist in other nations, and as an aside, is oblivious to the conditions he himself lives in. Americans condemn Communism usually without even having read the Communist Manifesto; and if they HAVE read the Manifesto, they say something good and stupid like "sounds great on paper, but doesn't work in the real world." Americans condemn Communism without knowing shit about Marxist tenents, and without knowing (or even reading about) the realities of life under a Stalinist/Maoist rule. It is _precisely_ because of this ignorance that makes Anonymous' point so relevent. No matter how (insert adjective) X is, denouncing it before you know what X actually is, and is not, is rubbish at best .. insanity at worst. I'm not arguing that Uncle Sam gets a big chunk of what I own. The arguement is communism vs capitalism. In this regard, Uncle Sam is like communism. But it's certainly not the corporations that rape my money. I'd take issue with that, in a round-about way. Uncle Sam steals your coin because there are a shit-load of Americans out there with less-than-dick for resources. These unfortunate souls might have taken up, say, basket weaving as a hobby rather than computer programming (unlike the majority of people who are likely to read this list) and as such (since hand-made baskets aren't in particularly high demand these days) are doomed to taking shitbox minimum wage jobs, probably part-time with no benefits; since we all know that companies will work your ass 39 hours a week to keep you from getting benefits, while maximizing their efficiency. Capitalism, with its emphasis on the profit margin can't always afford to give the working poor a decent wage, therefore we need social programs to help the honest, working poor. And, our caring Uncle Sammy takes our money to see that this is the case. Fine by me (I'd rather live here and let Sam have some of my coin than live in say, that Red satellite you were talking about). The name escapes me at the moment, but some Capitalist asshole/theorist once said something along the lines of: "The answer to our question (what do we do about the poor) is simple: nothing. We need an impoverished working class to supply cheap labor to our corporations. They must, after all, turn a profit." With some consideration, it seems obvious to me that in any socio-economic system that places such high importance on money it is mere causality that pure economic entities, like corporations, will become powerful controlling forces; and that power and control shall be exerted upon their closest subjects: the laborers .. aka, the people. I don't know what socio-economic system would work best; but I DO know that I will never like that which places shackles on the souls of men. Michael J. Graffam ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" "Who watches the watchmen?" - Juvenal, Satires, VI, 347
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Sunder wrote: Irrelevan my ass. I'm offended that you would assume such a thing about anyone. I won't let you escape this arguement by stating "But I said the Average American and you're not average." The average American isnt' knowledgeable about cyphers, or the NSA either for that matter. By talking on this list, you're not talking to the average American, so you can't take that exist hatch. Agreed, the Average American is not represented on this list; and I would not try and justify my statement by taking that out -- rather my messages in this thread have never pointed toward individuals on this list in particular, but have always been about average Americans in general. It's irrelevant to this discussion that the Average American(tm) couldn't tell you in 5 seconds where Austra is if you gave him a globe. It is irrelevant only if we agree that we are talking not about the Average American, but about the particular sort of American that would frequent this list. If we are discussing the latter, then I retract any statements that I have made and redirect them toward the average american, as this was always my intent. Quite honestly, I know both commie theory and have experienced it on my own back. Remember, I lived in a commie state when I was a kid. I know exactly what the conditions are. Can you say the same? Nope. Best I can say is that I've done some research and talked with a number of former Chinese citizens who have lived under communist rule. Can't say I like what I've read, nor what I've heard from my friends. Unlike you, I haven't read Marx in the comfort of my own liberty. Unfortunate. Just because I've read Marx doesn't mean I'll believe it. Just because I've read the bible, doesn't mean I'll believe it either any more than reading Lovecraft will get me to belive that gigantic intelligent squid and semi-plant/semi-animal elder ones live under the Artic caps either. Bullshit may be entertaining, but it's not reality. Not being able to tell them apart is a bad thing. Agreed. I'd add that reading a medical journal, or news report doesn't make it real (and therefore deserving of belief) either; and that is my point. I think that the American media and government propaganda machine has shown itself to be unreliable and untrustworthy -- therefore when a collection of statements are made by those authorities, how do we discern that which is worthy of consideration? A bit of first hand experience would be most reliable. A trusted second party with first hand experience second-best. Independant research, etc. After thinking for oneself in such a manner for a time, one will notice what sort of stories are likely to have a spin put on them for some reason or another, and to be able to develop a base of intuition as to just what sort of spin that might be. You said you don't like believing things on blind faith. I agree.. I'm just saying that it seems to me that the Average American takes a lot on blind faith. Sometimes you get lucky "Thou shalt not murder" .. thats a good one. "Communism sucks" .. hey, another good one. But obviously it is not the best method in the world. world." Americans condemn Communism without knowing shit about Marxist tenents, and without knowing (or even reading about) the realities of life under a Stalinist/Maoist rule. Just because the Average American condems or promotes something doesn't make them wrong either. Yep. Why is it do you think that they say "sounds great on paper, but doesn't work in the real world?" How do you know how much the Average American knows or doesn't know? I'm from a working class family, and I live in a working class neighborhood. I talk with lots of average people every day. Most of my neighbors don't have any college, or maybe a two-year technical degree. None have a university education.. but their kids will. I talk with lots of these people every day. I'm friends with them. As has been my custom for several years, after work each day, I go to a bar and put away a pint or two of Guinness after work. While in that bar, sometimes we watch baseball on the TV. Other times we watch the news.. and this often causes me, and other patrons to get into discussions -- a lot of times those discussions are political. So, I am pretty well versed in the average guys opinions.. How do you know that lack of firsthand experience or reading it makes them unknowledgeable morons or experts? What I know is, that during my discussions with people when I ask them "why" the oft-repeated answer is "I saw it on the news." With, "I read it in the paper" being a distant second these days. The mainstream media (almost by definition of mainstream) is the only information source the average guy has. As such, his opinions are just as suspect to me as the statements in the mainstream media. A house built on sand ... On a list like this, I expect out-of-the-way information
Re: Re: why worry?
In South Vietnam, our client regime The US of A did _not_ have a "client regime" in S. Vietnam. You are a complete fucking imbecile. There were several "regimes" in S. Vietnam that served at the whim of the US State department. I think I've made my point. The one on top of your head? Dig deeper, young Jedi, you've only scratched the surface. Whereas you're still sitting there staring at the surface. It's easier (at least for me) to forgive people who *try* to delve beneath the surface and don't quite grasp what they've dug up than to forgive those who never look. Seaver and May are saying essentially the same thing--that individuals should be allowed to determine there own destinies. Harmon comes to this position by way (apparently) of a more "touchy feely" world view while May comes to it from the Techno/Philosophical position. Does it matter how you get there? We all pretty much want the same thing--the ability to live our own lives free from the interference of those who wish to control our lives and our output. They (Seaver and May) both detest the actions of the US government in many areas, they are just focusing on different flaws and violations in the same system. This isn't some hippy bullshit "Can't we just get along", but rather an attempt to point out that both "sides" are saying the same thing, just using different words. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** If the courts started interpreting the Second Amendment the way they interpret the First, we'd have a right to bear nuclear arms by now.--Ann Coulter
RE: Crypto Framing in Britain
Declan forwarded: 3:00 a.m. 16.Feb.2000 PST DUBLIN, Ireland -- Britain is likely to become the first country in the world to make imprisonment a possible consequence of refusing to surrender, or even losing, one's private encryption keys. You know, it would be most unfortunate if some anonymous swine generated PGP Keys or even S/MINE keys for all the ministers, MPs, major administrators and sub officials in Britain and submitted them to various key servers. Luckily, that would take a great deal of effort and script writing talent. I'm sure no swine on this list would be so inclined or possess the requisite talent. Done at least six months ago by http://www.stand.org.uk/ No, it was not "done." A single key was generated in Jack Straw's name as a publicity stunt/pro-active attempt at persuasion. Not at all what I am talking about. But then again, I've never been disappointed (with noted exceptions) by the inability to read displayed by the masses of this list.
Re: Crypto Framing in Britain
Declan forwarded: 3:00 a.m. 16.Feb.2000 PST DUBLIN, Ireland -- Britain is likely to become the first country in the world to make imprisonment a possible consequence of refusing to surrender, or even losing, one's private encryption keys. You know, it would be most unfortunate if some anonymous swine generated PGP Keys or even S/MINE keys for all the ministers, MPs, major administrators and sub officials in Britain and submitted them to various key servers. Luckily, that would take a great deal of effort and script writing talent. I'm sure no swine on this list would be so inclined or possess the requisite talent. Done at least six months ago by http://www.stand.org.uk/ This letter was sent to Home Secretary Jack Straw, their Louis Freeh. -- Begin forwarded message and revoked public key... Dear Mr Straw, How the E-commerce Bill could send YOU to jail Please find at the end of the letter a confession to a crime, which has been affirmed by Statutory Declaration. The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police has been informed that you are in possession of this information. You will not be able to understand the confession, because the words have been scrambled using a strong cryptographic key. This key was created in your name and has been registered on international public key servers. The police may come and demand that you supply the key required to make this message intelligible. If you fail to do so you would be committing an offence under the E-Commerce Bill rendering you liable to imprisonment for up to 2 years. The fact that you don't possess this key won't help you unless you can prove that you don't have it. I wish you well in proving that it isn't hidden away on a disk in your secretary's home, or squirrelled away on the Internet somewhere. We might have sent it to you last week; but according to the Bill, the police won't have to prove you ever had it at all. Even if you can prove that you don't have it you would STILL be liable for imprisonment unless you give information to the police that enables them to decrypt the key. Unfortunately for you this is impossible, because we've destroyed all copies of the key in our possession. If the police ask you keep the demand to hand over the key secret, telling anyone would render you liable to 5 years in jail. So you couldn't complain - or explain your predicament - to the PM or Home Secretary, to the Chief Whip or a journalist, or even to another policeman. Happily for all of us, the E-Commerce Bill has not yet been enacted by Parliament, so we have not in fact set you up for jail time. The Bill will be introduced in the coming session. I hope this exercise has demonstrated some of the drafting flaws in the Bill as it stands - copies of which are available from the DTI. I hope we have also demonstrated that it is not the perpetrators of crime who would suffer under these draconian new powers, but innocent parties who are in receipt of communications from miscreants. This is why such sober organisations as British Telecom, Hewlett Packard and Microsoft have publicly criticised the Bill at each stage of its development. I trust that when the Bill reaches the House we can rely on your most careful scrutiny. Further analysis is available on our web site at: http://www.stand.org.uk/ or feel free to telephone me on (number supplied to J. Straw) I am, Sir, Your most obedient servant, Malcolm Hutty -BEGIN PGP MESSAGE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: 4ip9dARaGOZiVnU9TThYSu4zn2SAAZoW qANQR1DBwk4Dg60RRdBhctIQC/9KyjRA6qcZ0lPbb4fA59T6ZL33KjK80+AoP4hR /hycfEk1j9LgTST8NP6yq70x2R5N1If0oktkKLjALPxpXhRYdV260SWOkUMHCc/h Mk6n0xy0T8Klf9kmrcD2/1jg1HEApgU09zKPt5uktwPbvbyWEcDCSmQzb2K2rPDm DwDxk0Paq0vl9wg4spALX9tliVgFg7vVJBeXwYtCeCLFjw5Qcf9lrlLvRIWsZ/WW L85nHebjPJif11oPmu6vicmoz6cXbxaZVGOP5QTKpTFoLPdaIxGSl9ubFj3kjaBi VgWUnSaqIqx6pLhMgyY/TFGlztn/KLluPw71Kxw3N7apabnHzomuSi1upAaRHOnY GUgdBGCA4sXotN9arXI9kbRZsoMVCkqb5WCuhtY80vqW9I2BDm/iVJ75a28dFK4A lKRNbmgbfFO42AKdUUmfo2BtO6MuZVKG+Eqq0M4XeKCZuD0ISRXlLrW2MguUt6vY iizH56i1feODJ0XlNeYv19o0uscMAJA3ly5ApHg69UoJXbIrGJImf/zciGRp/m58 s5BCXqeF+GQYpJ8/d0n0Q2XabVBzM8hkKU0d5cgbHa+53f5Yx1cjz1GCZGeusIID GXAG9gZsbmrtEY8wnBS0fCUSUMW9OrSu5ULTTltrOlNQ/lb+ohVFFWPcbZGdV+C1 GCshaow/w0wb64XoDzT40a8GZWMfmMDCVXb64ajAGoenMPtjd3B5HB6vvYEsF2S3 NbkeIz+mSP7bEzlpZt1A0qh1kMkKnqZD6tiewBgBX6xjfVkRDUpM9SqcZ1HTRAnG PunG4WDHUOkEMv+m1RYNf57E/RRbKts3GDIudRCpOzNv7UUiSAiDL6Vvxh8UyMhi BKmcobYyKuSEYmrNcnErlMGCZZz5MK//NFWMS25eWR5HpMJBOno8zrV5GjvQ6DwI NMyqKrlF4VTY1Lb8JYOgLQhwV6KBuAubEYUrOFaI4LYm2RopcKY9zJBncTOV2POr qmZYnwYnWU57uiaQ7v7Nzl4vhdhw+8nA/CvOXFno5DLmNRiyp7alQTuvO+eCRngK UU+b8IruO3ADBFTaSr/0aAhTEUVnbUZjCYstnKqk9BYSF4+V4Sxn46BveDEMNvlw
Re: damn commie hypocrite leech! (was Re: Re: Re: why worry?)
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Xenophon wrote: Bowing to the majority rule of democracy is not something we should have to do in a republic. 51% should not be able to successfully implement a campaign of theft. Of course, but far more than 51% of the American people in every state of the union, support the existence of social programs (they also support reform of the ones we have). In any democracy, there will always be a fringe element that needs to give in. If every sanctimonious asshole who would steal my money for the sake of the "less fortunate" would simply find one person, just one, and do something to improve that persons life, the so called problem of poverty would be eliminated. But that's too hard. Better to hire a group of mercenary terrorists to steal other peoples money and then dole it out... On behalf of everyone how has done volunteer work: go fuck yourself. You speak well for other people. Had your reading of the post been accurate, it would have led you to conclude that I advocate individual good works, being based as they are, on the idea of consent. What I condemn are people who, rather than doing the work themselves, hire thugs to steal my money to do it for them. Ok, so am I correct in saying that your condemnation for social programs is limited to goverment funded, sponsored programs? If so, do you condemn a standing military? Do you condemn the post office? Do you condemn paying politicians? All of these are paid for by your taxes, and all of them offer a service to the American people.. as do our government-run social programs. The only difference between any of these that I can see is that you and I personally reap the benefits of some of these institutions, and reap no personal benefit from the existence of social programs. People who advocate a welfare state don't really give a shit about the poor. They are more interested in feeling good about themselves. As such, it's never surprising to hear them reciting a litany of their good works... Yes yes, because if we really cared we'd let them starve. Caring is starvation. Freedom is slavery. War is peace. And I mentioned my former volunteer works to illustrate that I have a leg to stand on when speaking of the views about government programs from a volunteer's perspective. I would love to see organized, wide-spread social programs without government involvement. I really would, because I have first-hand experience that local typically church-run groups help people a lot more than government programs. I would like such groups to be interconnected, sharing information, resources, and funds, but each small enough to be able to know the people they are helping by name and face, not by a fucking file folder. I don't think there is a volunteer out there who would disagree. Unfortunately, that is difficult. To get interconnected and maintain that level of organization requires money; and they typically don't have it .. and that is, for better or worse, where the government comes it and fucks it all up. Occasional anomolies don't disprove my submission. A counter-example does well to illustrate that your submission is not global, nor as strong as you made it sound. I said "worth to society". Michael Jordan makes more than a schoolteacher because we place more value on the NBA than reading. A programmer makes more than a shoe shiner because we have deemed that work more important. Maybe I misunderstood you. I would submit that Jordan and programmers make more green because those _abilities_ are more rare than other _abilities_ such as being a good teacher, and shining shoes.. and as such, if we want to benefits those rare abilities give us, we have to pay top dollar for it. Hey.. its supply and demand. It is completely devoid of the individuals involved. If the ability to teach were as rare as a good jump shot, teachers would be making Jordan's salary because they could demand it. But, there are a lot of people who can teach, and a handful of them will be willing to work for just a little less than others. Who are you going to hire? Choice is clear to me.. you hire the one willing to work for less; thereby lessening the number of positions available, making the other teachers need to lower their rates.. and as this happens over and over, we approach a limiting value which is the average teacher salary. Money is simply how we express our desire for a _skill_ says nothing about the people involved. This, though, I would agree with.. years ago, I'm sure that the guy with the biggest muscles, and best ability to hunt was a real prime catch for the ladies. Now, I'm betting Captain Caveman is less desired, instead that banker in the 3 piece is looking nice. Yeah, human desires change as the human condition changes. This has nothing to do with money, as I see it.. other than that in our society money in some form, is needed for survival/ordinary existence.
