No Subject

[MAGIC ROBERTSON]

theres someone i wont to bomb whats your best email 
bomb
(i wont to rip my cousins balls off and shove them down his 
fuckin throat)
 
MAGIC
 
 

Re: FBI listening in on Emails

[Tim May]

At 7:57 PM +0100 7/12/00, zombywuf wrote:
>ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
>ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
>ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
>ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
>ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
>ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
>ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!



..vast amount snipped...


Someone needs to kill you.



--Tim May

-- 
-:-:-:-:-:-:-:
Timothy C. May  | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.

Re: Mail list...

[Tim May]

At 11:30 AM -0500 7/14/00, Gimp Gimpson wrote:
>I don't know what kind of control you have over what mail list 
>software you use, but if this was made a private list where you 
>cannot post to the list unless you are subscribed, and you had to 
>reply to majordomo to confirm subscription, wouldn't that eliminate 
>all those damn annoying list subscriptions we're getting from that 
>lame-ass moron?


Because, all other things being equal, this would stop posts from 
nominal nonsubscribers. For example, anonymous or remailed or nymed 
posts. Which we consider to be bad ideas.

Your ideas were obvious in 1992.

There are solutions, but yours are not them.

(P.S. Toad.com has not been a preferred list address since early 
1997. Please conform to modern reality.)


--Tim May
-- 
-:-:-:-:-:-:-:
Timothy C. May  | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.

Investing Ideas Newsletter

[Quicken.com Investments]

Investing Ideas  —  

July 15, 2000   

  


Yahoo! A Week of Strong Earnings Reports



Summer slump? Not this week. Yahoo jumpstarted a modest Internet rally when its quarterly earnings blew past the 10 cents per share that Wall St. was expecting, and instead came in at a robust 12 cents a share. For the week, the NASDAQ index powered ahead 5.5%. Over on the Big Board, GE managed to post its strongest quarter ever, as net income rose 20%. It was also a sweet week for deals: PaineWebber announced plans to merge with UBS, and General Mills confirmed it is talking to Diageo about acquiring Pillsbury.
Tobacco firms, on the other hand, were left breathless when a jury awarded $145 billion to sick Florida smokers; a decision that is sure to be appealed.


   » Go to IdeaCenter for expert stock picks.

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More Than Just a Pretty Picture
 


Not content to rest on its laurels as a camera and photocopying juggernaut, Canon Inc. (CANNY) is busy expanding into new tech areas. David Warren, co-manager of the $21 billion T. Rowe Price International Stock fund (PRITX)  is bullish on Canon's growing presence in a corner of the chip-manufacturing business that is rapidly growing. And as Warren points out, Canon is truly a "global blue chip" that can provide some nice diversification for any U.S.-dominated portfolio.


   » See My Favorite Stock for details
For My Favorite Stock, Quicken.com asks a leading fund manager each week to describe his or her single favorite investment.

 

Juicy Food Stocks to Feast On
 


Seems that leading money managers hungry for winners are ordering up a serving of fast-food stocks.  
Shelby Davis, simply one of the finest mutual fund managers for the past thirty years, sees plenty of hidden value in the golden arches of McDonalds (MCD). Bill Nygren, manager of the top-performing Oakmark Select Fund (OAKLX) and new manager of the flagship Oakmark fund (OAKM) is a huge fan of Tricon Global Restaurants (YUM) which owns Pizza Hut, Taco Bell and KFC. And two other top-rated fund managers are major shareholders in Wendy's International (WEN). 


   » Get more on these appetizing investment ideas in The Funnel.

Quicken.com's Funnel writer 'Benny Graham' combs the financial press each week for the most interesting investing nuggets.

 

Buyback Buys
 


Time to move from fast food to home cooking. When companies repurchase shares of their own stock--eating their own cooking--it shows that management has a lot of faith in the firm's prospects, and believes the current price does not reflect the true value of the stock. Check out the favorite picks from the editor of the Buyback Letter.


   » More on Buyback gems in Advisor's Angle
   » The latest Advisor's Angle piece



 

The Best of the Week
 


Interesing items from the Quicken.com boards.


   » Heard on the Boards: 
Yahoo defies the naysayers with latest earnings report.




That's the bottom line from Quicken.com this week. We trust you find it worth your while.

Carla FriedManaging Editor, Quicken.com


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Distributed by Message Media Inc.All Rights Reserved. © 1999You are subscribed at: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   

Global News Network Proudly Presents: Global Report of Break & Enter, Theft, Falsification Conspired by Vancouver Police

[cancerglory49]

To all cybercitizens,

  Welcome to Global News Network. Global News Network is about all of us coming 
together to make a real difference. But Global News Network will only work if we all 
share - our time, our resources, our good ideas - and do it collaboratively online and 
off. Please be a part of it. For the first time in world history, ordinary people from 
around the world can log-on and communicate with each other to directly exchange 
ideas, resources and aspirations. Global News Network's mission is to harness this 
power and use the Internet as a medium of social and economic change. Global News 
Network is a long-term effort to build a community of conscience dedicated to 
providing basic needs: legal protection, human rights and health care. Global News 
Network sponsors are committed to focusing public and political attention on the needs 
of the world's most taxing citizens and to building an online community that is 
dedicated to change. Join us.

 Global News Network proudly presents REVIEW OF TOP FOUR HEADLINES
FOR THIS MILLENNIUM:- BURGLAR WATCH-A STATE OF OPPORTUNISTIC THIEVERY, PLAQUE, STINK, 
CHAOS, BARBARISM AND LAWLESS-AN INFORMED PUBLIC REPORT OF BREAK & ENTER,  THEFT, AND 
FALSIFICATION  CONSPIRED BY VANCOUVER POLICE

STORY:

In 30 September, 96, at 6:30 p.m.,  The victim confirmed with a police woman badge 
number 1930 in 911 the vancouver police had placed several audio and video bugs inside 
both his apartment, she refused to remove them and asked him to remove them. The 
vancouver police were very familiar with the enviroment inside the apartment. In other 
words, the police knew exactly when the residents inside left the apartment. On 3 
June, 94. the victim went out from my apartment. When he gone back at 2:37p.m. he 
discovered that both his apartment and his bedroom was broken and entered. He 
discovered that his newly bought hi-fi components  (bought at A & B Sound) and forty 
CDs (costed CAD$2,000) were stolen.  When he reported the crimes to the same police 
woman who admited the fact of surveillance, she behaved very arrogant and very proud 
of her criminal acts. She purposely hanged up the phone several times in order to 
aggravate him.
In July, 96, he called the vancouver police in 320 Main Street, Vancouver, a male 
police who had sneaky remarks (about twenty something years old, caucasian) lied that 
Ray Canuel was in Altanta, Georgia so that he could not handle the complaint. 
Afterwards, I sent a letter to former Chief Constable Ray Canuel (deceased of
cancer) in the same month without hearing any response. I then presented the complaint 
in person directly to the assistant to Ray Canuel. The assistant deceived him that the 
vancouver police will respond to his complaint three weeks later and it did not 
happen. The complaint aroused the police's revenge. Two polices without search and 
arrest warrant trepassed his apartment in Feb., 97 . One caucasian police opened his 
complaint letter which was originally sealed without his consent and he was falsely 
arrested by the two polices. One of the police were a Chinese who were about 5"6, 160 
lbs., black and short hair. Another police were a caucasian who were about 6"2, grey 
and long haie whir covered his trim, grey-blue eyes, about 220 lbs.. Both polices were 
thirty something years old. The latter one misrepresented and called himself as former 
Chief Constable Ray Canuel (deceased). The two polices committed trepass and false 
arrest. He filed the same complaint in year 1999and  rece!
!
!
!
ived a fabricated letter from Vancouver Police Department dated 20 May, 99 He 
booked an appointment with a security company to do a further sweep on his apartment. 
Unfortunately, the Vancouver police colluded with the company not to show up the 
appointment on 26 July, 99. The same circumstances happened the same for Brian Brown & 
Associates INC, owner: Brian; operator: Laurie. Ph. (604) 2912121 and Interglobe 
Investigation Services Inc, owner: Brian. Ph. (604) 2912121. On 6 Aug., 99, the 
vancouver police called the property manager of Crosby Management to me when I walked 
to the garden. The property manager purpously aggravated me and tried to fight with 
me. The property manager asked me to complain to the management (instaed of the police 
complaint authorities) so that they can cover up the conspiracies

Please join our talk for your action.

Re: An idea to limit the spam ... CPUNK

[Declan McCullagh]

At 18:03 7/14/2000 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
> > In any case, it is not interfering with your "right" to use their
> > machine as you see fit, since you have no such right to begin with.
>
>And this has what to do with the concept of 'censorship' being a
>'government' only action?

We may be talking at cross-purposes. Let me try again: If don't have a 
right to use their machine, and you're denied the ability to use it, how is 
that censorship?

-Declan

(Oh, if pressed, I might say that private universities, for instance, can 
engage in "censorship" when they violate a contractual guarantee to uphold 
academic freedom. But that's not what we're talking about here.)

Welcome to CNN Community

[community]

Welcome, Joe Cypherpunk.

You have registered as a provisional user for CNN Community. To become a 
full member, please visit the following URL: 

 
http://community.cnn.com/cgi-bin/WebX?confirm@@!user=464df&auth=wbXicS1bCIQ 
 

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Otherwise, just follow the link back to the message boards to activate your account.

 
You may find our standards more stringent than other Web-based Communities. We are 
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Comments posted on our message boards which violate our standards are routinely 
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Thank you for joining us, and we look forward to having you visit.

CYBERFEST 2000 HAS MOVED TO FRESNO!!

[mailinglist]

We're sending you this message 
because you agreed to receive promotions from our mailing list sign-ups or web 
registration forms. This mail NEVER comes to you unsolicited. However, if you 
would prefer not to receive this information in the future, please click on the 
link at the bottom of this email 

  IMPORTANT 
  ANNOUNCEMENT FROM COOLWORLD 
  SPREAD THE WORD TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW AND SEND 
  OUT ALL YOUR EMAILS...THOSE WHO HAVE CALENDAR LISTINGS PLEASE LIST NEW INFO... 
  
  CYBERFEST IS ALMOST HERE AND HAS BEEN RELOCATED!! 
  
  To an all new 500 acre Indoor & Outdoor VIRGIN CENTRAL 
  CALIFORNIA LOCATION! 
 ALL 
  HAPPENING ON SATURDAY
  July 22nd, 2000 - July 23rd, 2000 
THE BIGGEST DANCE CAPACITY EVER IN AMERICA: 
  
  80,000 DANCERS & MUSIC LOVERS WELCOME! 
  
  (We've been working around the clock to secure this 
  space for all of you and were looking forward to seeing all of you in full support!) 
THE BIG FRESNO FAIR, 1121 SOUTH CHANCE , 
  FRESNO CA. USA 
  Only 2 hours from the Bay Area and 2.5 hours 
  from Los Angeles!! 
AMERICA'S LARGEST DANCE AND MUSIC FESTIVAL JUST 
  GOT BIGGER... and is guaranteed to be the most amazing dance event ever ...twice 
  the size- twice the dancing freedom!  Everyone will be able to dance all 
  day and night... 
ARRIVE EARLY!  We are now opening gates 
  @ 2PM sharp and were going nonstop. 
  Headliners begin at 4pm and extreme sports will start at 3pm...so 
  come early so don't miss anything! 
  Coolworld and the Fresno fairgrounds cares about all of you 
  so we will be providing a rest area until 10AM sunday 
  morning for those who want to rest or have a snack before your trip home... 
We recommend getting in touch will all your friends, making 
  plans early and carpooling...We are also setting up different modes of transportation...party 
  busses are available and record shops will be selling bus trips! 
  This is going to be an event you don't want to miss... 
TICKETS ARE GOING FAST AND ALL OUR EVENTS 
  THIS YEAR HAVE SOLD-OUT...SO  WE RECOMMEND GETTING YOUR  TIX NOW... 
  
  BUY ONLINE NOW FOR CYBERFEST @ http://www.coolworld.com 
TICKETS ARE ALSO NOW AVAILABLE @ ALL TICKETMASTER 
  LOCATIONS IN NORTHERN & SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA...Out of State purchases look 
  to our website for locations or buy on-line! 
For complete Travel, Questions, Directions, 
  Hotel, party bus info, Things allowed at cyberfest and updates look to: http://www.coolworld.com 
ALL AGES WELCOME!! 
  Those under 18 please arrive before 11pm unless 
  your coming with someone over 18... 
  Adults 35 & over coming with a teenage ticket buyer 
  admitted free! 
PARTY BUS INFORMATION
SATURDAY JULY 22, 2000
  BIG FRESNO FAIRGROUNDS (AND WE DO MEAN BIG)! ( 80,000 person capacity)
  
  PACKAGE A (INCLUDES TICKET TO EVENT) free movies the whole trip and
  giveaways!!!
  $75
  GETS YOU
  SAFE ROUND TRIP TRANSPORTATION
  VIP ENTRY INTO EVENT
PACKAGE B (DOES NOT 
  INCLUDE TICKET TO EVENT)free movies the whole trip and
  giveaways!!!
  $50
  GETS YOU
  SAFE ROUND TRIP TRANSPORTATION
  VIP ENTRY INTO EVENT
DEPARTURE FROM COLMA BART 
  STATION, SAN FRANCISCO
  CHECKIN BEGINS AT 11AM
  BUSSES DEPART AT NOON
  BUSSES RETURN IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING EVENT
  Y-NOT PRODUCTIONS INFO LINES:
  415-790-3501 / 510-392-1342
  LIMITED SEATS AVAILABLe AND TIX ARE GOING FAST SO GET IN TOUCH AND MAKE
  YOUR PLANS SOON...
  CYBERFEST IS GONNA BE INCREDIBLE...
Complete info and line-up to follow... 
COOLWORLD 
   CYBERFEST 2000 
  
    UNITING THE UNIVERSE THROUGH MUSIC 
A Massive 20 hour Festival of the Future 
  celebrating life through music, dance, friendship, technology, spirituality, 
  knowledge and the creative arts... 
Coolworld, America's premiere dance & music 
  festival organization, has once again secured the perfect location for our 7th 
  annual CYBERFEST!!  Last years event inspired over 27,000 dedicated dance 
  lovers to unite for one incredible day & night with all-star performances 
  by The Chemical Brothers, BT, Goldie & KRSONE! 
This year we will be transforming our biggest 
  site yet! Fresno farigrounds into a mind blowing, futuristic, dance theme park... 
  The revolution continues...WELCOME TO THE FESTIVAL OF THE FUTURE!! 
An open air amphitheatre 
  
  8 entertainment arenas 
  6 themed dance arenas 
  A cybercirus w flying trapeze... 
  
  Carnival rides & games 
 OtherAttractions: 
  Extreme Sports & pro exhibition 
  Spectacular intelligent lighting 
  A massive outdoor laser light show 
  
  Giant visuals & interactive video 
  
  Performance artists 
  Tribal drum circles with acoustic instruments 
  
  Bhuddha shrine and meditation chamber 
  Hot & cold food stalls 
  Organic food vendors 
  Vendor village w/ arts & crafts 
  Massage artists & yoga station 
  
  Free-giveaways 
  Technology playground 
  VIP tent & sponsor area 
  Psychadelic cyber circus with flying trapeze... 
  Eco-conscious booths & info. 
  
  Global awareness booths and non-profits 
  
  Tarot card

Re: White House to announce encryption policy change on Monday?

[Michael Motyka]

> I don't know the content of his remarks. But when folks start talking about 
> the need to protect public safety and update laws to reflect changing 
> technology, I'm not sure if I'm terribly optimistic.
> 
> -Declan
>
Massively understated concern. Evil empire about to chew up an
Amendment.

judge parker Ruling posted in wen ho lee case

[bill payne]

http://members.tripod.com/bill_3_2/

Re: FBI listening in on Emails

[spot]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, zombywuf wrote:
> ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
{pointless repetition snipped}

I wonder if Echelon notices those stupid enough to not spell its name
correctly. probably not. :)

Not that I can talk. I've been misspelling piranha for a month.

> "My freedom of speech is nothing,
>  Without the freedom of my mind."

"Know what the easiest way to free a simple mind is? Bullet hole exit
wound." --anonymous IRC resident

-- 
---
 Tom "spot" Callaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
PGP Fingerprint: 0316 DF83 911C D63C 666A  EC45 B6C3 8ABA 102D F978
"Line up all the bastards, all i want is the truth."   
   --foo fighters, "stacked actors"
 "There is no truth--only facts to be manipulated."
  --S E Corff, NSA Collection Manager  
---

Re: Mail list...

[spot]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Gimp Gimpson wrote:

> I don't know what kind of control you have over what mail list software you 
> use, but if this was made a private list where you cannot post to the list 
> unless you are subscribed, and you had to reply to majordomo to confirm 
> subscription, wouldn't that eliminate all those damn annoying list 
> subscriptions we're getting from that lame-ass moron?

i believe this was already discussed as not preferable, because it would
mean that no one could anonymously remail the listserv, something of
importance on a cypherpunks list.

however, in theory we could subscribe the major remailers to the
list. maybe.

-- 
---
 Tom "spot" Callaway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
PGP Fingerprint: 0316 DF83 911C D63C 666A  EC45 B6C3 8ABA 102D F978
"Line up all the bastards, all i want is the truth."   
   --foo fighters, "stacked actors"
 "There is no truth--only facts to be manipulated."
  --S E Corff, NSA Collection Manager  
---

Re: FBI listening in on Emails

[Anonymous]

>ECHLON!

It's a fucking ECHELON ! echElon.

If you can't spell, what *can* you do ?

Re: Mail list...

[Running Bear Singh]

Good idea, unless, of course, the cypherpunks admin is backtracing the damn
moron and plans to post personal info, mailing address, IP, anything.to
the list in the near futurecuz I'd like to get a little of that action.

Running Bear


-Original Message-
From: Gimp Gimpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, July 14, 2000 1:07 PM
Subject: Mail list...


>I don't know what kind of control you have over what mail list software you
>use, but if this was made a private list where you cannot post to the list
>unless you are subscribed, and you had to reply to majordomo to confirm
>subscription, wouldn't that eliminate all those damn annoying list
>subscriptions we're getting from that lame-ass moron?
>
>gimpy
>
>

RE: An idea to limit the spam ...

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 11:19 AM -0700 on 7/14/00, Gil Hamilton wrote:


> *government* (defined as men with
> guns)

Quibble: Men with guns who take money at gunpoint. :-).
-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Earthlink tells feds to f' off

[Patrick Henry]

Could it be the start of a trend?  One can only hope...

--PH

===

July 14, 2000
Tech Center
EarthLink Says It Refuses to Install FBI's Carnivore Surveillance Device
By NICK WINGFIELD, TED BRIDIS and NEIL KING JR. 
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

One of the nation's largest Internet-service providers, EarthLink Inc., has
refused to install a new Federal Bureau of Investigation electronic surveillance
device on its network, saying technical adjustments required to use the device
caused disruptions for customers...

_
Get Your Free Email from http://www.hotml.com

Mail list...

[Gimp Gimpson]

I don't know what kind of control you have over what mail list software you 
use, but if this was made a private list where you cannot post to the list 
unless you are subscribed, and you had to reply to majordomo to confirm 
subscription, wouldn't that eliminate all those damn annoying list 
subscriptions we're getting from that lame-ass moron?

gimpy 

FBI listening in on Emails

[zombywuf]

ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!
ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON! ECHLON!

"My freedom of speech is nothing,
 Without the freedom of my mind."

Re: e-gold (oops)

[Patrick Henry]

Sorry for the misattribution...should have been "Ian Grigg wrote:"

--PH
_
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RE: An idea to limit the spam ...

[Gil Hamilton]

Anonymous writes:
>Declan:
> >You have no "right" to use another person's personal property -- their
> >server -- as you see fit. If that mail server only approves messages
> >with CP: in the Subject: line, or only with From: lines from
> >left-handed lesbian Botswanans, that is the owner's choice. It
> >certainly isn't censorship: If you don't like it, start your own list.
>
>Some US subjects seem to have mental block when it comes to so-called
>"property" and "rights".
>
>If I and few tens of my gunmen create a law (with all the paperwork :-)
>that makes the air my property, would you be so kind to suffocate ?

This is why the American colonies' Declaration of Independence talks about 
"unalienable" rights.  You can't take away those rights merely by claiming 
divine right and filling out the paperwork (which is to say you cannot take 
away one's legitimate claim to those rights).  Obviously, those rights *can* 
be denied by men with guns, as you point out.  However, in that case, one is 
fully justified in killing those men at the earliest opportunity.


>Or do you think that such "property" would be any less legitimate than
>what you "own" today ? We could provide a swift assurance.

Obviously in any reasonable view, such "property" would have no legitimacy 
whatsoever.


>Claiming that thought control exercized by individuals and corps is
>not censorship because they are "private" is like saying that whatever holy
>man does must be clean. It is a semantic trap. Or, better, the religion.

Clearly, Declan's view (apart from the quibble over the definition of the 
word "censorship") is that only when a *government* (defined as men with 
guns) denies the right to write/speak/publish/etc is it Evil.  If I, as a 
private property owner merely prevent you from using my property to publish, 
that is very different (i.e. it is NOT Evil).  By not allowing you to use my 
property for your publishing, I am not exercising "mind control", merely 
requiring you to pay your own publishing costs.

- GH

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

e-gold

[Patrick Henry]

Sir Robert Hettinga wrote:

> With supporting e-gold as a currency, or paypal or some other similar,
> it is so obviously a good idea that if they don't do it immediately,
> then they have their reasons to avoid these things.  Wanting to do
> money issuance RSN could be one of those reasons.

The last time I looked into e-gold, there was no form of anonymous bailment.
Has this changed?  There was even some garbage on e-gold's web site along the
lines of "we won't be a party to money-laundering schemes" and "pay Caesar all
he asks with his money, and use e-gold for everything else."

I'd rather not deal with Caesar at all.

--PH
_
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wen ho lee docket update 7/14

[bill payne]

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/

Hoffman

Help Spohn find the Mitsubishi spy report.  We want to post it.

Larry is supposed to report news.  Not suppress it.

Re: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?

[Gil Hamilton]

Tom Vogt writes:
>why am I discussing the point? because I think that most people are not
>aware that our legal framework is this arbitrary. but if it is, that
>means it can be changed. if we're not satisfied with the way that
>corporations act anymore (regarding privacy, for example) we can change
>the laws that the corporation's existence (AS a corporation) is based
>on, since there are no "natural" or "inalienable" rights that we could
>violate.

And the point I'm making is that the corporation represents the people that 
own it and therefore it *does* have "natural" and "inalienable" rights and 
that when you violate those rights, you violate the rights of the owners.

You seem to be saying that there's nothing wrong with simply defining away 
the rights of the owners by changing the legal fine print that establishes 
the government's treatment of the corporation. ("Oh, that property just 
belongs to a Corporation; it doesn't belong to Real People.  And the 
corporation doesn't have any rights to life or liberty or property so we can 
just take it if we want it.")

Well, since governments typically don't recognize the natural rights of 
individuals (even those, like the United States, that give lip service to 
them), I don't disagree that this has happened, is happening and will 
continue to happen in the future.

But it's Wrong, and Evil, and over time inevitably leads to a government 
that encompasses more and more of daily life, and regulates more and more, 
and recognizes the rights of individuals less and less.  The laws pile up 
higher and higher, and each year at an increasing rate.  And everyone, 
especially cypherpunks, should fight it tooth and nail.

- GH

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?

[Tom Vogt]

Gil Hamilton wrote:
> >I disagree. the legal system puts it this way, which is exactly what I'm
> >saying above. it's just that this is an ARBITRARY solution to the
> >problem, and any other would be just as "valid".
> 
> You're not being clear.  What "problem" is it that a business is "an
> ARBITRARY solution to"?  

seems the fundamental misunderstanding is right here: the problem is:
"how does a society treat an artificial entity (read: biz)?". the
solution is not the biz, the solution is the laws that define which
rights a business has. THESE are arbitrary. we could just as well have
defined a different set of rights/laws.


> You appear to be claiming that businesses would not exist if the "legal
> system" (i.e. government) didn't create them.  

almost. I claim that they would not exist in the form they do, since the
legal system defines what a business IS. for example, the
former-communist countries didn't know any equivalent of our
"corporation", but instead had a different framework for a similiar
goal, with collectively owned entities. (let's ignore the usual
communism rants for a while, this is an example)



> However, in any sort of
> government (or even with none), people looking to build wealth would still
> wish to pool their assets with others and operate businesses for the
> purposes of buying, selling and making money.

yes, but HOW this operating works is defined ARBITRARILY by the legal
system. all change starts with the vision of something different being
possible at all.


> This simply proves that (most of) society is able to see a business as
> simply another face put on by individuals.  So if a crime is committed, you
> punish the owners (or whatever individuals are actually responsible for the
> commission of the crime).

the interesting part is that a business can transcend the state of being
"another face [of] individuals". who, for example, owns the Deutsche
Bank? I'm fairly sure that it would be a mean task to find the names of
the individuals that do, since most shareholders I know about are yet
other corporations.


> Likewise, corporations do not vote because their owners already have a vote
> and giving a corporation a vote would result in the owners having more than
> one vote, and would therefore be patently unfair.  Nothing terribly
> difficult to understand about all this.

not at all. it's just that we could just as well have different laws.
for example, the argument could be made that a corporation (at least
after having reached a certain size) has interests apart and different
from the owners, just as a person (after having reached a certain age)
is assumed to have interests apart from those of his/her parents.


> (For the same reason, businesses should *not* pay taxes.  [Even assuming you
> agree that there should *be* taxes.])

and again, the argument can be made in both directions, and for some
reason a decision was made in the way it is today.


why am I discussing the point? because I think that most people are not
aware that our legal framework is this arbitrary. but if it is, that
means it can be changed. if we're not satisfied with the way that
corporations act anymore (regarding privacy, for example) we can change
the laws that the corporation's existence (AS a corporation) is based
on, since there are no "natural" or "inalienable" rights that we could
violate.

Re: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?

[Gil Hamilton]

Tom Vogt writes:
>Gil Hamilton wrote:
> > The business is a representation of the owners, who are real people with
> > actual rights.
>
>yes, but a representation is just that. as I said: the existence of
>churches or icons does not prove the existence of god, and does not give
>god the right to, say, vote in elections.
>
>if I decide to give my money to a representation, that's my choice. but
>both of them are still just a piece of paper.

This church analogy you're trying to make just doesn't fit. The church 
doesn't represent God, it represents its members, all of whom *are* 
permitted to vote in elections and such. (As to your statement that "the 
existence of churches doesn't prove the existence of God": I don't disagree 
but the analogy with a business simply doesn't make sense.)

Also, I'm using "representation" in the sense of "surrogate for" or 
"manifestation of", not in the sense that it is merely "a symbol for."


> > A business is created with real capital (cash and other
> > forms of value) advanced by the owners.  Anything the business "owns" --
> > property, information, etc. -- is actually owned by the owners of the
> > business.  Hence, any right that inheres to the owners spills over (as 
>Kevin
> > put it) to the business.
>
>I disagree. the legal system puts it this way, which is exactly what I'm
>saying above. it's just that this is an ARBITRARY solution to the
>problem, and any other would be just as "valid".

You're not being clear.  What "problem" is it that a business is "an 
ARBITRARY solution to"?  Again, a business is simply a pooling of assets by 
the owners with the purpose of increasing those assets for the benefit of 
the owners.

You appear to be claiming that businesses would not exist if the "legal 
system" (i.e. government) didn't create them.  However, in any sort of 
government (or even with none), people looking to build wealth would still 
wish to pool their assets with others and operate businesses for the 
purposes of buying, selling and making money.


>there's a lot of other things arbitrary in our culture's dealing with
>the phenomenon of business entities. for example, while they have many
>rights of real persons (can own property) many duties do not apply (I've
>never heard of a company sent to jail (i.e. closed down for a time) or
>being subject to the death sentence (i.e. closed down permanently)
>because of crimes that would have resulted in these sentences for real
>persons).

This simply proves that (most of) society is able to see a business as 
simply another face put on by individuals.  So if a crime is committed, you 
punish the owners (or whatever individuals are actually responsible for the 
commission of the crime).


>other areas are less "outlandish", if you prefer. for example: why can
>corporations not vote? they surely are entities of the local area with
>interests in the political future.

Likewise, corporations do not vote because their owners already have a vote 
and giving a corporation a vote would result in the owners having more than 
one vote, and would therefore be patently unfair.  Nothing terribly 
difficult to understand about all this.

(For the same reason, businesses should *not* pay taxes.  [Even assuming you 
agree that there should *be* taxes.])

I don't deny that some aspects of governments' treatment of corporations is 
arbitrary and even senseless.  However, the basic idea of a business is not 
an invention of government.


- GH

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Re: Eudora spyware?

[negafoo]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Peter Tonoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> How slow is your link to the world? 1 minute seems quite long.

T'is not link speed.  This one-minute paralysis occurs after the
initial packet exchange.
The DUN monitor doesn't show any packet exchange during the paralysis
or at its conclusion.

> I know one of the things that paid mode does is check to see what the
> latest version of Eudora from Qualcomm has been released. It will then
> notify you if there has been a newer release.

The paralysis is related to the initial connection.  If I engage
ZoneAlarm's lock, no exchange
and no paralysis.  Unlocking after the initial connection is blocked,
Eudora proceeds 
without a problem.

I've tried WinDump, but it only binds to the Loopback Adapter.  I'm
still looking for a packet
sniffer that will intercept the dial-up PPP connection (or hints that
will bind the Loopback
to the DUN connection... my bindings have been rearranged according to
the
suggestions on grc.com)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: N/A

iQEVAwUBOW73InQZdxgLaz29AQFXOgf/RXqJ5ioyPDt4ANIKnFvcgrzH4qg7huxp
5yBw1CRrNMhFb0vFZ9I7uMFFBGSvJUK1uvEGP0Yc6zLGG16EySLs+7sBjv0GXY0C
CDMhemMokBylF1ZGPkm+xAnPw6cp3xBKE+Ws5tdc3Xok7hpp2o5M9N7o8rS4Osvr
OADEKS0QUWstdcdl38MUwe8+1FyTnEhtEg69dz1cvN0kmhyD/ZfeL2JzNDM/edQ9
gS5ramZXZh4GrcvABGgJ68DvpEyBX5q0ETEzIWVBencvKYnY0jQqHQn+9c4w51F2
epL4JAZNFzncDA5MxuCAm38Sdj7q580iTxArNk3y6hoD0AcJhD48Eg==
=hkgw
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Eudora spyware?

[Peter Tonoli]

On 13 Jul 2000, negafoo wrote:

> (apologies to the list for letting a crypted message out and 

Ugh! fix your mailer to wrap your posts!

> I've noticed that Eudora 4.3 (in paid mode) has developed a habit of making an 
>internet conection on startup.  If I allow the connection to succeed, some packets 
>are exchanged and then Eudora consumes 100% of my CPU time for about 0:01:10 (by 
>stopwatch).  I also note that when I'm offline, Eudora tries occasionally to connect 
>to 
> jump.eudora.net.

How slow is your link to the world? 1 minute seems quite long.

> I'd like to find out what's going on.  

I know one of the things that paid mode does is check to see what the
latest version of Eudora from Qualcomm has been released. It will then
notify you if there has been a newer release.

Cheers,
Peter.

CYBERFEST 2000 HAS MOVED TO FRESNO!!

[mailinglist]

Title: 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 06, 
2000 1:49 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: CYBERFEST 
2000 HAS MOVED TO FRESNO!!
We're sending you this message because you agreed to receive promotions 
from our mailing list sign-ups or web registration forms. This 
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of this email
 



 
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bring ID ( Student ID okay). 
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Re: Cell Phone Crypto

[Pieter Grobler]

? a terrorist that ask "are THEY legal to own",
yes I know of one , but I am not going to tell you, because your are really
fishing
for something els. And i sincerely dont hope you have any children
-Original Message-
From: An Metet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 4:47 AM
Subject: Cell Phone Crypto


>Hi!
>
>As go about my business as a drug dealing terrorist who collects child
pornograghy, I find that my minions, lackeys, cohorts, and I have need of
cell phones that encrypt the conversation between two or more users. Anyone
sell these in the US of A? Are they legal to own & operate?
>
>-Freeh-dom == Slavery

Re: how EXACTLY does this protect privacy?

[Tom Vogt]

Gil Hamilton wrote:
> >the rights of businesses are completely artificial. a biz is an
> >artifical entity that doesn't have any existence aside from paperwork
> >(the property it owns is "real", but that doesn't make the business any
> >more real than the existence of churches proves the existence of god).
> >as such they have no "natural" and "inaliable" rights, but only those
> >artificial rights granted to them by the local government. it just
> >happens that they've managed to lobby most govs into giving them a whole
> >bunch of rights.
> 
> The business is a representation of the owners, who are real people with
> actual rights.  

yes, but a representation is just that. as I said: the existence of
churches or icons does not prove the existence of god, and does not give
god the right to, say, vote in elections.

if I decide to give my money to a representation, that's my choice. but
both of them are still just a piece of paper.


> A business is created with real capital (cash and other
> forms of value) advanced by the owners.  Anything the business "owns" --
> property, information, etc. -- is actually owned by the owners of the
> business.  Hence, any right that inheres to the owners spills over (as Kevin
> put it) to the business.

I disagree. the legal system puts it this way, which is exactly what I'm
saying above. it's just that this is an ARBITRARY solution to the
problem, and any other would be just as "valid".
there's a lot of other things arbitrary in our culture's dealing with
the phenomenon of business entities. for example, while they have many
rights of real persons (can own property) many duties do not apply (I've
never heard of a company sent to jail (i.e. closed down for a time) or
being subject to the death sentence (i.e. closed down permanently)
because of crimes that would have resulted in these sentences for real
persons).

other areas are less "outlandish", if you prefer. for example: why can
corporations not vote? they surely are entities of the local area with
interests in the political future.


> There are many (particularly in governments) who don't like this and would
> try to deny it.  This is unsurprising and completely in line with their
> usual attempts to appropriate things of value created by others for their
> own purposes.

I'm not at all pro-government in this. I'm just fascinated by the
complete arbitrariness of it all.

The World According to Choate

[Tim May]

At 10:03 PM -0700 7/13/00, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>At 21:32 -0500 7/13/00, Jim Choate wrote:
>>On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote:
>>
>>>  A corporation is an organization collectively owned by a group of
>>>  individuals, by the 14th, all powers denied to the federal government
>>>  are denied to the states as well.  A corporation is collectively
>>>  owned by a group of people and thus every single right you have as an
>>>  individual in regards to your personal property apply.  No
>>>  exceptions, no invented rights, it's black and white.  A corporation
>>>  has the same protections as an individual.
>>
>>Interesting, But wrong.
>>
>>"An artificial being created by operation of law, with an existance
>>distinct from the individuals (shareholders) who are its "owners".
>>Business Law
>>Emerson, Hardwicke (Barron's)
>>ISBN 0-7641-0101-3
>
>And how does that change my earlier statement?  We're allowed to own 
>beings as well as object (cats, dogs, rats, squirrels, etc...) and 
>all of these beings have an existence distinct from their owners. 
>Your not allowed to search my dog without my permission anymore than 
>your allowed to search my house.

Kevin,

You need to understand that Jim Choate frequently (usually?) has 
idiosyncratic views of how the Constitution works, of what prime 
numbers are, of how electromagnetic laws really work, of what history 
was, and so on.

In Choate Prime, a universe which exists parallel to our own, the 
Constitution does not apply to corporations because it only applies 
to individuals. In Choate Prime, the "New York Times" is routinely 
told what it may print and has its offices searched regularly without 
search warrants...because it is a corporation and hence is not, in 
Choate Prime, covered by the First and Fourth Amendments.

In Choate Prime a restaurant may have its property seized without due 
process simply because constitutional guarantees of due process and 
concerns about "takings" only apply to individuals. And in Choate 
Prime, a church or other group may be told which prayers it may use, 
because, as all Choate Primates know, the separation of church and 
state applies only to individuals, not to companies, corporations, 
clubs, mailing lists, churches, and other groups.

Because in Choate Prime the Bill of Rights only applies to 
individuals, not to newspapers, churches, corporations, and clubs.

Of course, these very groups and churches and suchlike exist only at 
the sufferance of the government, because "freedom of association" 
applies only to individuals. As soon as a group is named, whether 
"Church of Mormon" or "Intel Corporation," it no longer has any Bill 
of Rights protections.

A weird world. But at least they have unlimited energy from Tesla Physics.


--Tim May
-- 
-:-:-:-:-:-:-:
Timothy C. May  | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.