Re: Re: Knowing your customer
At 12:47 PM 12/6/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security number to open a bank account, for any of a number of reasons including credit checks, and checks on how many, um, negative-funded, bank accounts you might have hanging out there before you opened this one. More to the point, since interest is taxable income for individuals, and a tax deductible expense for corporations, social security numbers are required in order to pay you interest. Ah the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970 (which outlawed bank secrecy). http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/SupManual/bsa/bsa_p2.pdf http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/SupManual/bsa/bsa_p1.pdf The Feds do require SS numbers on bank accounts in most cases but the requirement has major loopholes. [And, yes, Duncan may be right, you might be able to spoof an SSN at them somehow, but I don't know anyone who's actually done it, admitted it in any public detail, and not been somehow razzed legally for it.] It's actually not too hard because bank officers can't verify SS numbers save by using the well-known methods to check facial validity. As long as you precheck your numbers with a program like ssn.exe which checks for non-existent number ranges and state of issue, you should be OK. The SS Admin refused to allow the credit reporting agencies to verify their records agains the Feds database (because of the privacy implications). As always, if you get turned down someplace, go someplace else. Likewise, SSNs are not required to open accounts in other countries and these accounts are accessible these days by Internet Banking and credit/debit cards. One can also set up entities such as: sole proprietorship, partnership, trust, estate, corporation, etc. and apply for a taxpayer ID number (TIN) and have the entity open an account. The advantage of this is that you can have an infinite number of unconnected entities thus defeating the linking problem involved in the use of a single identifier such as the SSN. In addition, the new online payment services don't always require an SS# to open an account: Do not require SSN to open account PayPal -- http://www.paypal.com (Now international as well which creates a further loophole.) BillPoint (Wells Fargo eBay) -- http://www.billpoint.com/ (Requires Ebay registration which requires a credit card to sell but not to buy.) dotBank (Yahoo) -- (http://www.dotbank.com/) Now http://paydirect.yahoo.com/ PayMe -- https://www.payme.com/ Ecount -- http://www.ecount.com/ MoneyZap (Western Union) -- http://www.moneyzap.com/ Require SSN to open account eMoneyMail (BankOne) -- http://www.emoneymail.com/ ProPay -- http://www.propay.com/ c2it -- (Citigroup AOL) http://www.c2it.com/ Most of these accounts can be opened with throwaway email address and a accommodation address for your physical address. As they grow in importance, having an account with them may be more useful. It is important to note that the best way to dodge some of the paperwork is to open accounts when services are new since the requirements tend to increase over time. Prior to October 1999(?) for example, Ebay did not require a credit card to open a sales account and existing account holders were grandfathered in when they added that requirement. But there are always new account and payment systems popping up so you can continue to take advantage of this principle. Keep in mind that there are other financial account privacy techniques not mentioned here. Use your imagination. [The answer to this lie to the government, don't get a bank account Usually, you're not lying to the government but to a private party acting on behalf of the government. problem, which any persistent cypherpunk subscriber knows, is, of course, to have payment systems which don't *need* physical identity for non-repudiation of transactions and the subsequent requirement of the force of a nation-state to make settlement risk manageable: bearer certificates based on cryptographic protocols like blind signatures, which will, frankly, only *really* be possible, soup-withdrawl to nuts-deposit, when a bearer currency issue is *itself* reserved by other digital bearer assets, instead of just a book-entry account somewhere.] Definitely a good idea if someone can pull it off. DCF May the Lord enlighten ... the Swiss banks -- that they might uphold justice and preserve the integrity of their own laws and the laws of confidentiality, trust and basic decency between the banks and their clients. Imelda Marcos' Prayer for the Swiss Banks - Manila - Sunday 25 February 1996.
Re: This is why a free society is evil. [Re: This is why HTMLemail is evil.]
At 9:40 AM -0500 12/15/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim May wrote: In a free society, free economy, then employers and employees are much more flexible. A solid contributor would not be fired for something so trivial as having a porn picture embedded in some minor way. Hell, a solid contributor probably wouldn't be fired even for sending MPEG porn movies to his buddies! Depends on your definition of a free society, free economy. In my definition, free society, free economy property holders are free to use the power derived from their property in order to protect their property and also to advance their own agenda. I don't know if your example involved a claim the Personnel Dept. bimbo was acting as an agent of the company's property holders or not, but that's just the advancing agenda situation. The reason the company now prohibits all sorts of activities, and the reason the Personnel Commissar is inspecting offices, is because of _externalities_ like lawsuits, harassment charges, etc. In a free society, these externalities would vanish. I suspect you'd be happier if property holders didn't hire people prone to making decisions advancing their own individual agendas. Unfortunately, it's hard to find perfect people and it's still the decision of the property holder to hire them and allow them to make decisions without supervision. You seem to fundammentally misunderstand the situation. The reason the Personnel Commissar is ordering sensitivity training, workshops, and is requiring that posters of Brittny Spears be removed from office walls is because government and lawyers have made companies liable in various ways for "discriminatory" or "sexist" or suchlike behaviors. One of my fellow engineers at Intel had a large poster of the famous early 80s porn star, "Seka," on his walls--she was, in this poster, clothed, albeit skimpily. Some of the secretaries clucked, and retaliated by putting up Chippendales calendars, including full frontal nudity. Would such things be tolerated today? Nope. And not because of the personal choices of a particluarl Personnel bimbo. Nope, the fear is of lawsuits. This was my point about a free society. Even so, a property holder is equally free to protect their property by deciding that firing an individual accused of an action is less of a cost than the legal actions and/or bad press that might otherwise result. Firing actions don't have to be rational and property owners are free to be gutless. You're really missing the point, aren't you? Go back and think about the issues more deeply. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Re: Inquiry RE: audiobook reviewers
- Original Message - From: "Dwayne Parsons" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Found your request on Editor's Choice. I'm a professional writer, avid reader and believe in audiobooks. Spend a lot of time driving across rural Montana. What's your terms? Can you be more specific if your need still exists. I'm capable and interested and have done numerous book reviews from print. Our need does still exist. Should you be chosen for this seven-month term assignment, your recurring task would be to pick up 50 - 75 units of audiobook in Eagle Pass, Texas and upon review of the each audiobook's quality, deliver them to a ranch in Corralitos, California. You will be paid with e-gold, at a value of $2900 per successful trip. If you are still interested, please submit a more detailed resume and references.
Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind...
At 10:23 PM -0800 on 12/14/00, Tim May wrote: April 1st is many months off, so why this? :-). Let's see now, you're about the third or fourth person to note the same think (Stewart, Broiles, for example), on this very thread. The first being, of course, Perry... Yes, I'd heard about the flaps and seals folks. Yes, probably seven or eight times. From you, alone, over the years. Somehow I figured, if the snake-oil humor relevant, then maybe these quys had done something new, chemically, that made this iteration of the same old idea a little different. Cheers, RAH (In the meantime, are you *sure* you really want to start this kind of snide shit again, Tim? It seems to me you and I were doing rather nicely the last 9 or 10 months or so...) -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind...
At 11:13 PM -0800 12/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 10:23 PM -0800 on 12/14/00, Tim May wrote: April 1st is many months off, so why this? :-). Let's see now, you're about the third or fourth person to note the same think (Stewart, Broiles, for example), on this very thread. The first being, of course, Perry... Yes, I'd heard about the flaps and seals folks. Yes, probably seven or eight times. From you, alone, over the years. Sorry I didn't see the other responses, who pointed out the same things I pointed out, basically. I was away for a couple of days and was catching up on a lot of mail. I'm just amazed that "New Scientist" or anyone else would not know that making paper transparent is trivial. I may take their "What if atoms don't actually exist?" sorts of cover stories (quantum weirdness, stuff from nothingness, etc.) less seriously. (In the meantime, are you *sure* you really want to start this kind of snide shit again, Tim? It seems to me you and I were doing rather nicely the last 9 or 10 months or so...) It wasn't "snide shit." Reread what I wrote. But, since you are apparently so willing to be offended, and have more than several times brought up some notion that we have some sort of truce, let me disabuse you of this by saying "Fuck off." --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Re: All these different addresses.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to be told "Check the Archives". How come this list has so many addresses: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is any of these the *real* address, or it is a personal choice? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- At 11:59 PM -0800 on 12/14/00, Tim May wrote: "Fuck off." There you go again. :-). Nonetheless, after 6 1/2 years, it does feel like it's time for me move on, and it seems quite appropriate for me to go out the same way I came in: with Tim yelling. ;-). Thanks for all the fish, everybody. Have fun. Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use http://www.pgp.com iQEVAwUBOjob+8UCGwxmWcHhAQGKDgf/RBn5rb1rm3K1lDlL8pfy2jqGQGb4QNi2 /mdKH0oSEgQ6m+YL3SquIeOzWf1n6n+XINkMUPHQkjH2hTj35iFGPkiL3MDJ3f91 m+GzIscZXIdauu9T9vYoBSC5QktH4VK4bzQ0PZaBjyIv3n+jdjgczSJeUXY3j+v+ DrxWEuEeI0LxfJZgiOTwUxzmtMy8EA7f9Sc3dOYZfNKNIRPxoKII7mg6JdhpRXaR DJTvGeWwC35xwJxpK5kEBh/MwypClMvarZp+ICUToj5YySe7Z99Ly9Go0yKuTmAu B1h8QZv8fgZ0cH+nqaQte+gqFkohXTzPNYj1zu5ytALr778HMAfoLA== =lXpG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind...
At 03:50 AM 12/14/00 -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: FOR ALL TO SEE It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an odour for 10 to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, "no evidence at all" that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically questionable product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 [Lighter fluid and similar stuff works just fine. That's been known for over a hundred years... --Perry] Wouldn't this be detectable if you scrawled on the envelope with an ink succeptible to paper chromatography in that solvent? You can make primitive (before cheap float glass) windows by oiling paper...
RE: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind...
Title: RE: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... Doesn't appear to defeat security envelopes either, which have been around for quite some time. -Original Message- From: David Honig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 2:06 PM To: R. A. Hettinga; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind... At 03:50 AM 12/14/00 -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: FOR ALL TO SEE It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the letters inside as easy to read as postcards. It leaves an odour for 10 to 15 minutes, says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, no evidence at all that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes See-Through as a non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe liquid, human rights activists believe it's an ethically questionable product which could tempt security forces to bend laws. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 [Lighter fluid and similar stuff works just fine. That's been known for over a hundred years... --Perry] Wouldn't this be detectable if you scrawled on the envelope with an ink succeptible to paper chromatography in that solvent? You can make primitive (before cheap float glass) windows by oiling paper...
Re: nambla
At 12:03 PM -0800 on 12/14/00, gary seven wrote: PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION Keewww. An *actual* *biblical* *curse*... Cheers, RAH (I mean, the boils and keloids are bad enough, but when it starts raining *toads*, it's just *simply* the last straw...) -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind...
At 3:50 AM -0800 12/14/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 11:35 PM -0600 on 12/13/00, by way of [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FOR ALL TO SEE It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an odour for 10 to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, "no evidence at all" that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically questionable product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 April 1st is many months off, so why this? Tools for making envelopes transparent have been in use for many decades, perhaps a century or more. Bamford and Kahn, IIRC, discuss varius government agencies during WWII and later steaming envelopes--the so-called "Flaps and Seals" folks. They may have alluded to freon sprays and all the newer methods, but it was pretty clear that Flaps and Seals was not limited to just "steaming." I saw sprays used for making envelopes transparent sold in novelty stores and catalogs back in the 70s. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May [EMAIL PROTECTED]Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: 1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Re: Perry's Paint Fable comes to mind...
On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:50:55AM -0800, R. A. Hettinga wrote: Real-To: "R. A. Hettinga" [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:35 PM -0600 on 12/13/00, by way of [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FOR ALL TO SEE It's a spray which renders sealed envelopes transparent, making the letters inside as easy to read as postcards. "It leaves an odour for 10 to 15 minutes," says the spray's inventor, but, apart from that, "no evidence at all" that it's been used. While the manufacturer describes "See-Through" as a "non-conductive, non-toxic, environmentally safe liquid", human rights activists believe "it's an ethically questionable product" which could tempt security forces to bend laws. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns226930 Inventor? Shit. You can achieve this result with the "canned air" dusters sold to computer techs and photo people by simply turning the can upside down so the magic stuff emerges in liquid, not gaseous form - drip or spray it on the envelope in question, and the paper becomes (partially) translucent. The human rights activists are just pissed off they can't afford it themselves if they order it from a spy catalog. Everyone can afford it at Fry's - and learn thing about their friends and neighbors that they'll someday wish they hadn't. -- Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604
Re: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology (fwd)
Robert Guerra forwards: -- Forwarded Message -- From: Ed Gerck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology [snip] Just an FYI. I was checking this out when I noticed via WHOIS that www.thebell.net www.safevote.com www.ivta.org [and possibly even NMA.com?] are all apparently self-promotional mouthpieces for this Gerck fellow (formerly of the "Meta-Certificate Group", another self-promotion vehicle) who has shown up on cypherpunks and other crypto/security lists from time to time, usually with somewhat crankish ideas. - GH _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: U.S. Supreme Court vs. Voting Technology (fwd)
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Gil Hamilton wrote: are all apparently self-promotional mouthpieces for this Gerck fellow (formerly of the "Meta-Certificate Group", another self-promotion vehicle) who has shown up on cypherpunks and other crypto/security lists from time to time, usually with somewhat crankish ideas. Aw gee, Gil! Cranks? Here on the Cypherpunks list? Say it ain't so! :-)
Re: nambla
On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:03:09PM -0800, gary seven wrote: You are under the Judgement of the LORD GOD OF HOST for the sin of the sea of babies, abortion and infant sacrifice to the devil. You will burn in the presence of the HOLY Angels. The seals are opened. PREPARE FOR YOUR DESTRUCTION CAMAEL ARCHANGEL OF DESTRUCTION Camael called back - apparently there was some sort of screw-up with the lists. The destruction was for our neighbor. We get to sit in heaven on fluffy pillows and eat warm chocolate chip cookies for all eternity. I guess you didn't hear. Also, this sort of thing was predicted in Isaiah 19:9 " .. and they who weave networks shall be confounded." Don't get too wound up about it. -- Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
Tim May wrote: Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the computers do all the work. or reorganize the stuff into a square for a quick round of "cyperpunks buzzword bingo". :)
Re: CDR:Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting..
Different standards aren't necessarily bad either. Local jurisdictions have a substantial amount of leeway in ballot design in Florida, which, Democratic partisan protests notwithstanding, is probably a reasonable thing. In other areas of the law, they have the opportunity to craft laws and rules that are more suitable to their area of the country. Local control and competition among different standards set by different local communities generally is a good thing. If nothing else, it's the way the U.S. political system was set up to work. -Declan On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 11:17:15PM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: In article 001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem, "Me" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of lawyers? Having a plethora of different standards sure doesn't help.. In Canada, and other countries there is a uniform ballot across the country..something that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real soon. i dont see why any of these methods are inherently better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch card ballots speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance didnt get elected and revoke bill c-68 g, eh? Polls before the election were correct and the alliance didn't win. If somone wants to revoke bill c-68 they will have to wait 5 years until the next elecion. BTW. Many thanks to those of you who have replied to my earlier messages on this topic. I hope to answer you within a day or so. regards robert -- Robert Guerra [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 WWW Page http://crypto.yashy.com/www PGPKeys http://pgp.greatvideo.com/keys/rguerra/
This has the w95.hybris.gen virus in it. ...Re: Snowhite and the SevenDwarfs - The REAL story!
At 10:46 PM 12/13/2000 -0600, you wrote: Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... ___ If we don't change our basic perceptions of life, as a species we will perish in servitude to institutional greed. Please read Vote or Die at www.thirdparty.dhs.org "A human being is part of a whole, called by us the "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest -a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. " - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring ing NJ Mob Case (was Re:
Ken Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In every office or factory I've ever been in, including government ones where we kept paper copies of tax returns (yes folks, I have worked for the Inland Revenue) there are cleaners. They seem to come in 3 kinds - middle-aged black women, African students working their way through college, and people with vaguely asiatic features who sound as if they are speaking Portuguese. The latter would probably be Phillipinos.
Re: FC: Yet Another Survey: Americans have become privacy pragmatists
Business President Alan Westin says that more Americans now fall into the category of "privacy pragmatist" rather than "privacy fundamentalist." Ron Plesser of Piper Marbury Rudnick Wolf says that the Internet industry must determine how to properly use Social Security numbers. "Regulating the purchase and sale of Social Security numbers over the Internet won't come overnight," Plesser says. Damn few "privacy fundamentalists" out there. Most "privacy advocates" support massive government privacy invasions including the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended, the Census Bureau, and the various state DMVs. Unless a "privacy advocate" is prepared to call for the elimination of the above privacy invading institutions or at least their conversion to anonymous credential technology, then I submit that they are *not* privacy advocates at all. As for the eternal SS# question, Amex and Discover will currently give you "one time use" cc numbers to use over the nets. A consumer-friendly government could do the same. Particularly since they already have the institutional setup in place. Anyone who forms an entity of any kind that has US tax implications (sole proprietorship, partnership, trust, estate, corporation, etc.) can/must apply for a taxpayer ID number (TIN). The Feds could issue them to the rest of us for one-time use. DCF I knew America was in trouble when I found that the application to join the Sons of the American Revolution asks for your Social Security Number.
Re: Questions of size...
Tim May wrote: At 7:42 PM + 12/12/00, Ben Laurie wrote: Sampo A Syreeni wrote: On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Ben Laurie wrote: Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two points on it" and that is precisely the meaning in general relativity. No question about it. The term also doesn't mean a whole lot when applied as-is in the many instances it is on this list. As Tim put it, it pretty much equates to "cyberpunkish". Not being subscribed to cypherpunks (has S/R improved?) I will have missed that. Signal happens when good writers contribute good articles. Noise happens in the expected ways. Noise is what the delete key, and filters, were made for. Hmm. So, please send me your noise filter. I could do with one. As you are apparently reading this from the "DBS" list, you are not seeing any of my contributions. Regrettfully, DBS (and DCSB, or Bearebucks, or whatever Bob is calling his list(s)) is not an "open system." The Cypherpunks tried such a censored list a few years ago, and we rejected the approach. The list I'm writing to is not censored, AFAIK. I wrote a large article debunking the "geodesics is about topology" point of view. Others have said similar things. Actually, they're really about geometry, though there are some kinds of topology which can support geodesics (not the standard rubber-sheet kind most people are familiar with, though). For example, a graph can support the notion of a shortest distance between two points, and that is definitely a topological entity. Please don't contribute articles to the Cypherpunks list if you are, as you say, not subscribed. While we don't reject articles by nonsubscribers, as per the above, it is tacky and rude for nonsubscribers to address articles to lists they are not tracking. This is an email, not an article. Is it tacky and rude to copy to a list to which you'd prefer I didn't reply? I think so. Is it polite to include all recipients in a mail to which you reply? I think so. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
Here you go: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi -Declan At 10:08 12/12/2000 -0800, Tim May wrote: With all of the talk recently of recursively-settled agoric market spaces, multidimensional geodesic actor systems, and other jargon-heavy marketbuzz, I've made up a little table of recommended names. Someone could make a little Perl or Python script to let the computers do all the work. The idea is to take a couple of sexy terms from Columns 1 and 2 and apply them to a noun from Column 3. Care should be taken to use terms which evoke images from relativity, quantum mechanics, artificial life, and other trendy areas. Anything that triggers images from "Star Trek" is good. Here it goes: Column 1Column 2 Column 3 Distributed Fractal Market GeodesicCoaseian Ecosystem Holographic Geodesic Space Multiply-connected Biometric Ecology Least ActionParameterized Continuum Recursively-settled Holographic Cyberspace Fractal Multidimensional Bazaar BionomicDistributed Hyperspace Agoric Auction Topology Best of breed MetricMetaverse Dark Fiber Anarchic Arena Open-system Quantized Manifold Anarcho-topological Hayekian Actor system Examples of usage: "Digital Datawhack is premised on the principle of creating distributed biometric agoric arenas." "The Von Mises Corporation is the dominant player in deploying recursively-settled holographic actor systems. It is our goal to make agoric, open-system market topologies the bionomic norm." "Fractalbucks are the unit of currency in the Hayekworld bazaar-type open Coaseian system. We believe it to be best of breed in the dark fiber geodesic market space." Glad to be of help. --Tim May, Aptical Foddering Marketspace V.P. -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was spoken by a Canadian!?! -Declan At 16:25 12/12/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 4:04 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi Great. Now all we need is one of those translators, like the one that turns text into something the Muppet's Swedish Chef would say... :-). Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
At 4:04 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi Great. Now all we need is one of those translators, like the one that turns text into something the Muppet's Swedish Chef would say... :-). Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
At 4:29 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was spoken by a Canadian!?! :-). Ooo! Oooo! A canadian *cryptographer*!!! SouthPark-KylesMom Bomb Canada.../S-K (Yes, I get the joke, and consider myself properly spanked. I'll go see *myself* how the Swedish Chef thing works. It can't be that hard, right?) Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: I've got an idea! How about one that would make text look like it was spoken by a Canadian!?! Better yet -- John Young. ]: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen| to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
At 14:02 12/12/2000 -0800, Alan Olsen wrote: Better yet -- John Young. ]: Modern computer science has not advanced sufficiently to accomplish such a feat. :) -Declan
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
At 4:43 PM -0500 on 12/12/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: (Yes, I get the joke, and consider myself properly spanked. I'll go see *myself* how the Swedish Chef thing works. It can't be that hard, right?) As Senior Wences(sp?) used to say, "Eeesy for jou to say, for me, ees deeficult!) Okay, so it does searches and replaces on *characters* and doesn't just insert buzz words per se, which means, like the website of the same name says, it does dialectizing, and not jargon per se. From the Mac source (Chef 1.1) I found on info-mac, the Swedish Chef one's pretty simple, with just a few character substitution rules. The hardest one I found, from a quick perusal in Google, is Cockney, with something like 600 rules, which I haven't actually looked at, yet. Creating text which sounds like me -- much less John Young -- may (or may not :-)) be "eesy". Though, it does remind me of the concordance text-biometric stuff people around here used to fool around with to identify anonymous cypherpunk messages from, um, various cranks... :-). Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Digital Economy Jargon Generator
At 04:04 PM 12/12/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: Here you go: http://www.mccullagh.org/cgi-bin/jargonizer.cgi Nifty hack, Declan!
Re: US: Democracy or Republic?
At 1:32 AM -0500 12/11/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:12:23PM -0800, Steve Schear wrote: Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and brightest. Heh. For every Democrat (and perhaps some Republicans) who goes on TV and proudly proclaims this perpetual election as a good thing because it buttresses our civics knowledge, I want to ask: Why don't we encourage the president, say, to commit a felony? The subsequent prosecution and conviction would be fascinating to observe and would *really* educate America's children. Yes, the treatment Bill received after raping Juanita Brodderick was indeed instructive. As was the punishment he received for lying under oath, suborning perjury, tampering with evidence, and (very probably) having witnesses in his scandals killed. (While not _all_ of the several dozen people on the Bill Hit List were victims of foul play, I expect many were. And about 10 standard deviations' worth of deaths as compared to the expected number around other men of similar age --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand
"Sean R. Lynch" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ummm, Mutt *does* sent the message body as text/plain, and the content-type of the entire message is multipart/signed. Not sure what you're talking about here. The content-type of the signature is application/pgp-signature, which should just be ignored by MUAs that don't understand RFC2015. That's assuming they recognize multipart/signed as containing parts that can be displayed. The entire problem is that Eudora et al. do not---multipart/signed is unrecognized, so the entire message is treated as unopenable and displayed as an attachment. And I hope they never add your patch, because people who use broken MUAs need to suffer, because they're not playing nice with the rest of us. I hope you don't mean this. I don't think there is a Windows MUA that supports RFC2015 at all---are you saying that all Windows users need to suffer? I don't like Windows, but lots of people just can't or don't want to handle anything else. And speaking of not playing nicely, what do you call "...people who use broken MUAs need to suffer..." ? Thanks, but no thanks, I will *not* break my own MUA to help other people continue using their own broken MUAs. The Internet is based on standards, and it's been too long that we've been suffering for those who break the standards. Witness, for instance, all the pipes that are clogged with traffic from Windows boxes because they fast start too fast due to their broken implementations of PGP. I am *sick* and *tired* of people telling me that I'm somehow sending my messages as attachments when their content-disposition is inline making them *not* attachments and the accusors obviously don't have the first clue about MIME works. Sorry, I'm just tired, and I want this crap to end. Tim May seems to think you "acknowledged that we were sending our messages as attachments" and now considers that carte blanche to filter out RFC2015 messages. He can do what he likes, but I am upset that he somehow now feels morally justified doing that due to your harmless little hack. The Internet is based on _suggested_ standards such as RFC2015 (note its disposition---it's not an official standard). No one is forced to comply with them, and those who wish to communicate effectively do their best to use their software in such a way as to be able to do so. It is obvious that you have no wish for the majority of people to be able to read your mail, as you refuse to acknowledge that your messages are not in a format that people support. You hide behind RFC2015, saying "look, I'm following the standard. I must be right." The fact is, there's no "right." It comes down to what you're trying to accomplish. If you're interested in pissing people off and being ignored, then you're doing OK. Otherwise, you might consider backing down on this one. The only thing you're going to acheive is an inability to communicate with the majority of internet users. -- Riad Wahby [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIT VI-2/A 2002 5105
Re: Questions of size...
At 9:48 PM + on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two points on it" Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Questions of size...
At 5:56 PM -0500 12/11/00, R. A. Hettinga wrote: At 9:48 PM + on 12/11/00, Ben Laurie wrote: Chambers defines geodesic as "the shortest line on a surface between two points on it" Thank you. It works in all dimensions, and, thus it's topological, right? Topology is typically not concerned with distance metrics. Doughnuts and coffee cups and all. Geometry is what you're thinking of, presumably. Not as sexy as saying something is "a topologically-invariant geodesic fractally-cleared auction space," but that's what happens when buzzwords are used carelessly. By the way, one topological aspect of a geodesic dome, to go back to that, is that each node is surrounded by some number of neighbors. Applied to a "geodesic economy," this image/metaphor would strongly suggest that economic agents are trading with their neighbors, who then trade with other neighbors, and so on. Tribes deep in the Amazon, who deal only with their neighbors, are then the canonical "geodesic economy." This is precisely the _opposite_ of the mulitiply-connected trading situation which modern systems make possible. So, aside from the cuteness of suggesting a connection with geodesic domes, with buckybits as the currency perhaps?, this all creates confusion rather than clarity. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: US: Democracy or Republic?
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" [EMAIL PROTECTED] THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. No, it isn't. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
Re: Re: Data Logs
On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Russ K wrote: Maybe not, but the tools used to remove the barrel/s can be traced by teeth marks and other metal to metal contact. So the moral of the story is... If you want to destroy the potential barrel you'll need to: - Have replacement barrels purchased in a non-traceable manner. Why? There are many reasons to have spare barrels. Think "Squib load". - Have some mechanism to brush or scratch the inside of the barrel, - Apply a corrosive and allow it to thin the barrel significantly. - Then twist barrel and heat until red hot. - Then handle with non-metallic tools only until discarded. Nonsense. The forensic tests on bullets/firearms are based on percentage matches. You simply need to change *slightly* the "finger print" of the barrel and firing pin. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting..
Robert, With respect, you're joking, right? The current system is flawed, true, but an Internet voting system would likely suffer from far more serious security, authentication, and fraud problems. This is a recurring topic of discussion in cryptographic and computer-risks circles. Do some web searches. -Declan On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! regards robert
Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting..
Declan: I completely agree with you that internet voting isn't quite ready fom prime-time just yet. But given the current snafu I highly suspect that there will be a lot of interest in the field. Certainly, I hope one of the few things the new congress will be able to do is set-up a commission to propose new voting standards. Hopefully they will pick a standard that doesn't give rise to problems 30-40 years in the future... personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the same system Canada uses. They use a 100 year old system, had few if any recounts, and managed to count all thier manual ballots in less than 72 hours. --On Sunday, December 10, 2000 11:59 AM -0500 Declan McCullagh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, With respect, you're joking, right? The current system is flawed, true, but an Internet voting system would likely suffer from far more serious security, authentication, and fraud problems. This is a recurring topic of discussion in cryptographic and computer-risks circles. Do some web searches. -Declan On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:23:17AM -0500, Robert Guerra wrote: Hey if there's a good side of the US mis-election this year.. it is that finally there will be an attempt to improve and modernize the process. One of the technologies to improve the voting process is secure e-voting..Can anyone enlighten me as to who is working in the field.. Looks like it will be the only tech stocks that will do well in 2001 ! regards robert
Re: Questions of size...
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: (RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of economics :-) Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? Not very, I think. It seems it's RAH's specialty. It's quite poetic, actually. Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same way? Although 'geodesic' does have, through its use in general relativity, some faint echo of 'operates purely based on local information', I think it's a misnomer. People should rather use the term 'distributed' literally, as it's used in computer science. That's the meaning RAH is after, not true? Sampo Syreeni [EMAIL PROTECTED], aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university
Re: Fractal geodesic networks
On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Carol A Braddock wrote: So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would the number be good for? If it could be shown that a consistent estimate exists and it was calculated, it would probably affect the scaling properties of the Net - after all, what are fractal dimensions but numbers relating linear scale changes to changes in measures? Sampo Syreeni [EMAIL PROTECTED], aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university
Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting..
- Original Message - From: "Robert Guerra" [EMAIL PROTECTED] personally, if I had a say I'd say they should adopt the same system Canada uses. They use a 100 year old system, had few if any recounts, and managed to count all thier manual ballots in less than 72 hours. is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of lawyers? in the last decade in canada, i have voted for different levels of govt via: normal X in the circle paper ballot, scantron sheet, write-the-name-in-the-blank ballot, no polling station/mail-only ballot, various absentee forms, proxy (which the fuckers did away with this year), etc. they were counted by: little old ladies with a pencil and paper; or a Brainiac-2000 computer; or possibly not at all depending on canada post and the particular election. i dont see why any of these methods are inherently better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. i imagine we dont hear a fuss because: all positions are generally local positions and of no larger significance; the vote is often won by a large plurality and not in question; all of these legal cases would probably have died with the first prothonotary that saw them; etc. speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance didnt get elected and revoke the bill c-68 gun control laws, eh?
Re: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight!
At 2:27 PM -0800 12/10/00, petro wrote: Mr. May: The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. Sure, but I was making the point that this is an ironic example, as it was the records which Firestone and Ford kept of their customers which allowed them to send recall letters out to those customers! (I just got Yet Another Letter from Ford, which I haven't opened. The last couple have exhorted me to _please_ make arrangements with a local dealer to have the Firestone tires on my Explorer replaced.) I got a similar letter from Costco, the giant box store, saying that a _rope light_ I bought at some time in the past--their letter gave the exact date--has been recalled due to the chance that it may burst into flames under certain circumstances. (When it gets wet, as the waterproofing was faulty. Inasmuch as I use these rope lights to illuminate and heat the interior of my gun safe, I ignored the letter.) There are technological solutions for how companies can notify customers without knowing what customers buy, obviously. Nyms, cut out accounts, agents which send ticklers, etc. This was not my point, only the irony of citing the Firestone recall in a discussion of how companies are tracking purchases. But since the word "irony" has been removed from all current dictionaries --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re:
At 2:06 PM -0800 on 12/10/00, petro wrote: RAH whinged ...and in error. My apologies. Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement HTML
At 5:24 PM -0600 12/10/00, Allen Ethridge wrote: On 11/30/00 at 1:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim May) wrote: So, you might say, "it works." Nope. Problems: 1. I ain't gonna read messages that require me to launch my word processor. Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text editors. Mail programs need, at the very least, text editors, or it becomes difficult to compose. Or do you mean that word processors should be integrated into mail programs? Did you miss the word "external" in my sentence? Let me repeat it for you: "Mail shouldn't need external word processors or text editors." In-line vs. attachment is the issue here. Most of those who have been using the "attachment" setting have belatedly realized their errors and are now in-lining their text. Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize these are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") Luddite. I tried above to be polite. Now this. PLONK. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: A piece of advice??
At 6:18 PM +0200 12/10/00, FRANKY wrote: Hello to everyone. I'm Alexis and as I'm new to cryptography I would appreciate a piece of advice. I've read the book "Applied Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier and I also have the "ICSA Guide to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more books related to cryptography. www.amazon.com I assume they can ship internationally. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: A piece of advice??
On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, FRANKY wrote: to cryptography". However I would like to know where could I find more books related to cryptography. amazon.com is one place. see also http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/ for an online copy of the Handbook of Applied Cryptography. secure one system I would like to kindly ask for guidance. How do we apply an algorithm to a whole system? I know how to encode a message , but a system? I'm not sure what you mean by "a whole system." Do you mean something like "how do I take a string of letters and represent it as a number so I can encrypt it?" Then you want to look at ASCII or Unicode and random padding like Optimal Asymmetric Encryption Padding (OAEP). I'm not sure what else you mean. -David
Re: US: Democracy or Republic?
At 03:26 AM 12/10/00 -0800, petro wrote: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: From: "Kent Snyder-The Liberty Committee" [EMAIL PROTECTED] THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. IT IS A REPUBLIC. THE ELECTORAL A republic is a form of democracy, a representative one. No, it isn't. Quite. And the specter of the Florida legislature selecting a new set of electors are providing one of the best civics educations citizens young and old have had this century. Its really quite healthy to have the myth of democracy we were all taught in grade school laid bare by the reality of a conservative and plain reading of the Constitution by some of the best and brightest. steve
Re: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight!
At 2:27 PM -0800 12/10/00, petro wrote: Mr. May: The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But I took that statement to mean that if Firestone exercised the same level of diligence in the engineering of their tires that most web sites used, they would be recalling a *LOT* more tires, enough to make the current recall a drop in the bucket. Sure, but I was making the point that this is an ironic example, as it was the records which Firestone and Ford kept of their customers which allowed them to send recall letters out to those customers! Oh, I wasn't speaking to that--I agree that there is a degree of irony there. I was just replying to the specific sentences quoted. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement HTML
On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:46:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize these are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") Apparently, Eudora didn't manage to implement MIME properly within 7 years. That is unfortunate, but MIME is the right direction nevertheless. A MIME-compliant mail reader without PGP support would just display the message without the signature, and possible add a note that there was a signature that could not be verified (or that an attachment could not be displayed). That is much better than PGP "ASCII armor" where several lines of meaningless characters are displayed to the user. (It is generally not a good idea to use signatures and HTML on mailing lists, but that is an entirely different issue.)
Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement HTML
At 2:19 AM + 12/11/00, Anonymous wrote: On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 04:46:05PM -0800, Tim May wrote: Fact is, PGP and SMIME went the _wrong_ direction when message signings started to require RTF, MIME, HTML, etc. (I realize these are not all the same thing. The real issue is "non-ASCII.") Apparently, Eudora didn't manage to implement MIME properly within 7 years. That is unfortunate, but MIME is the right direction nevertheless. A MIME-compliant mail reader without PGP support would just display the message without the signature, and possible add a note that there was a signature that could not be verified (or that an attachment could not be displayed). You're missing the point. Several people set their systems to provide their _entire_ messages as attachments. Riad Wahby acknowledged this, and fixed it. Others did not, so I started filtering them out. Eudora Pro handles MIME just fine. If someone provides a message as an attachment, whether of type JPEG or type MW, then clicking on that attachment icon launches a JPEG viewer or Microsoft Word or whatever. My point is that I don't see the point of expecting readers of a mailing list to open a message in MW or whatever. In-lining usually solves this problem. Signatures, if they exist, can either be verified with another program or with plug-ins to speed up the process. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: CDR:Re: The US mis-election - an oportunity for e-voting..
In article 001c01c062e0$5db95fc0$0100a8c0@golem, "Me" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is there any benefit to the 'canadian system' above it's lack of lawyers? Having a plethora of different standards sure doesn't help.. In Canada, and other countries there is a uniform ballot across the country..something that hopefully will be introduced into the USA real soon. i dont see why any of these methods are inherently better/safer/more accurate than those used in florida. Counting a "X"'s I would think is easier than counting chads on punch card ballots speaking of canadian elections, its too bad the canadian alliance didnt get elected and revoke bill c-68 g, eh? Polls before the election were correct and the alliance didn't win. If somone wants to revoke bill c-68 they will have to wait 5 years until the next elecion. BTW. Many thanks to those of you who have replied to my earlier messages on this topic. I hope to answer you within a day or so. regards robert -- Robert Guerra [EMAIL PROTECTED], Fax: +1(303) 484-0302 WWW Page http://crypto.yashy.com/www PGPKeys http://pgp.greatvideo.com/keys/rguerra/
Re: Sunders point on copyright infringement HTML
Sorry, that last one from me was out of line. I'm just tired of being accused of sending my messages as attachments by people with broken MUAs, and then their claiming that their MUA must handle MIME fine because they can click on the pretty little icon and have attachments magically open for them. Having done tech support in the past, I've just heard this sort of excuse one too many times. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.literati.org/users/seanl/ Key fingerprint = 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 GPG/PGP encrypted/signed email preferred.
Re: fingerprint mouse.
At 12:30 AM -0800 12/9/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Anonymous wrote: update HONG KONG--Siemens has a solution for people who constantly forget computer passwords: a mouse that recognizes fingerprints. By lightly tapping the fingertip sensor located at the top of the mouse, the device verifies the fingerprint against reference templates already input into the PC's system. Once a fingerprint is authenticated, the person can then access the PC's main operating system. Oh, right. And nobody could *possibly* dust it for fingerprints, etch a fingerprint into a rubber pad, and tap the rubber pad on the sensor. That might take what, a whole hour? Less, for a black bag agent. And black bag entries are becoming a standard, court-authorized measure. I wonder how long before a court-authorized measure will be simply mugging a target and cutting off his ID finger. When government adopts the MO of the thief, all things are possible. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: Mask Laws: About 5yr. log retention
"Trei, Peter" wrote: Unless there is a specific loophole for Muslim women's veils, I suppose they are technically in violation, but as I said, these laws are hardly ever invoked. If say, there were a rash of terrorist attacks involving veiled persons occured, there'd be crackdown. One of the reasons for mask laws is *specifically* veiled terrorists - wearing white spook outfits. The KKK is fortunately past its heyday, and the more common police problems when they hold marches are keeping the crowds from beating them up and unmasking them. Another reason for such laws may be bank robbers and highwaymen, but it's mostly the Klan. I did hear there was a case in Detroit or somewhere about mask laws being applied to veiled women, but the loophole to go for is the First Amendment protections on religious freedom. France, on the other hand, has had public schools ban girls from wearing head coverings, primarily because they emphasize the cultural differences. I read an article a while back about how the black dress outfit was becoming very common among Egyptian businesswomen. Not because they were traditionalists, but because the alternative, at least in Cairo, was that they were expected to dress fashionably and expensively, even though Egyption salaries for women haven't caught up with salaries for men, and the black dress is cheap, often more comfortable, and has enough traditional support that nobody can argue. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Re: ip: Chaos Theory
So this is interesting, but you do understand that from a strictly logical perspective it's completely inconsistent and makes no sense whatsoever?? Mr. Murphy complains that Gaza does not meet this "requirements" for being an anarchy - I would then respectully ask "what does???".. If Gaza is not anarchy, has there EVER been an anarchy in all of recorded history? The "State," as a structure of social organization, exists even in communities of animals that are of substantial sub-human intelligence (e.g., wolf packs, lion prides, dophins, ants, most primates and most other social, intelligent animals all exhibit some form of "pecking order" that can loosely be interpreted to be power structures that self-organized out of "random chaos" (so to speak) so as to further the chances of survival for the species as a whole..) human governments are very similar, except they attempt to inject some degree of "civil procedures" into this otherwise life/death Darwinian drama.. If Mr. Murphy seeks a system where people own property and where other people respect this property, then what exactly, I ask, is wrong w/ Northern California?? Defining anarchy to be such a system (where people own property and other people respect this property) is a complete and total breakdown of all logical, rational reasoning.. I hope you also understand that from the perspective of a business man, perhaps the most important role that governments provide is not necessarily "an organized system of corrupt thugs to whom we pay protection money in the form of taxes" (to paragraph Mr. Murphy's arguments); instead, government most importantly provides business with an institution upon which businesses may pass on risk (if necessary).. ALL business is about minimizing risk, and the more that businesses are able to pass on risk to government (the "State", so to speak), the happier they are.. You need look no further than the DoD bailout of Iridium to see what I mean.. (there are MANY other such examples too..) If Mr. Murphy believes that it is possible to run a business absent government (i.e., in an anarchy), I suggest he quit the pot-smoking grad school scene, get a REAL job (preferabbly in Northern California) and see firsthand how the world REALLY works.. (perhaps AFTER he spends several months in Russia, so he can compare and constrast..) the word "anarcho-capitalist" has no reality for me.. nor should it for any rational, sane human being.. its substantially less than an oxymoron and makes NO SENSE whatsoever.. if you want to live in a world that sustains "anarchy-capitalism", you may as well live in a world where two people can eat the same piece of pizza or a person has the freedom to jump over the Moon (to cite examples from the article) A nice rant, below, from a fellow anarcho-capitalist lapsed conservative apparently Hillsdale College grad. [I swear, folks, I *tried* snipping this to relevant bits. :-). I mean, there's a URL in it and all, and, admittedly, he's preaching to the choir around here, but this is nicely done that I couldn't bring myself to premasticate it for cypherpunk consumption.] Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 20:35:04 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: "S. Hunter" [EMAIL PROTECTED] (by way of [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Subject: ip: Chaos Theory http://www.lewrockwell.com/murphy/murphy19.html Chaos Theory by mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Bob Murphy Throughout history, there have been countless arguments advanced to support the State. None of them has been valid. This essay will address a certain class of these arguments, whose sleight-of-hand consists in a definitional trick. My purpose here is not to make the positive case for pure laissez-faire, but merely to show that each pro-government argument is a non sequitur. Anarchy is the absence of government, both in political science and everyday usage (it is the first definition given by Websters, e.g.). Chaos, in the context of social science, refers to lawlessness, or the absence of a relative degree of regularity in human affairs. (I say a "relative degree" because, obviously, virtually all humans will always obey the rule of, e.g., avoiding someone with leprosy or not slaughtering every female in sight. The laws to which lawlessness is opposed are generally meant to imply the sometimes irksome rules necessary for a civil society.) [...]
Re:
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 03:00:47AM -0800, Jonathan Wienke wrote: Hasn't any seen the movie 6th Day? Who needs a password when you can borrow the necessary biometric token from its owner if you have a hatchet or decent knife? I taped a CSPAN show about two years ago before a bunch of high school kids who were in DC for the week. The subject of fingerprint access to bank ATMs came up and I mentioned the lop-off-one-digit scenario. They were appropriately horrified, and I don't think the moderator enjoyed it much either... -Declan
Re: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention]
Ond 12/09/2000, Ray Dillinger wrote: It is illegal in Georgia, and a number of other Southern states of the US, to appear in public wearing a mask. Not that it's usually enforced on anybody but the Ku Klux Klan. Dunno about other countries and other states. In "Church of the American Knights of Ku Klux Klan v. City of Erie," a federal district judge in the western district of PA held: 1. a provision prohibiting a person from wearing a mask in public with intent to deprive others of equal protection of laws or to prevent or hinder constituted authorities from providing equal protection of laws to others did not violate First Amendment; 2. a provision prohibiting wearing of a mask in public with intent of intimidating others because of their exercise of their rights or to cause others to fear for their own safety did not violate First Amendment; but 3. a provision prohibiting wearing of mask in public "with intent to intimidate" violated First Amendment because it was overbroad. The ordinance was: 733.02 CONCEALING IDENTITY IN PUBLIC PROHIBITED Wearing hoods which conceal the identity by hiding the face or masks in a public place is hereby prohibited. No person shall, while wearing any hood which conceals the identity by hiding the face, mask or device whereby a substantial portion of the face is hidden or covered so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear in any public place within the City. A "public place" was defined as: "all walks, alleys, streets, boulevards, avenues, lanes, roads, highways or other ways or thoroughfares dedicated to public use or owned or maintained by public authority; and all grounds and buildings owned, leased or operated for the use of organizations enjoying all tax-exempt privileges as charitable use." Section 733.01. There were, of course, exceptions to the ordinance: Section 733.02. Certain persons are explicitly exempted from this general prohibition, including: (a) persons under sixteen years of age; (b) persons wearing a traditional holiday costume in season; (c) persons using masks in theatrical productions; (d) persons lawfully engaged in trades or employment or in a sporting activity where a mask or facial covering is worn for physical safety; (e) persons wearing a gas mask in drills, exercises or emergencies; (f) persons wearing a mask for purposes of protection against cold weather; (g) persons wearing a mask because of any illness, allergy or on the advice of a physician. Section 733.04. And the additional requirements were: (a) With the intent to deprive any person or class of persons of the equal protection of the laws or of equal privileges and immunities under the laws, or for the purpose of preventing or hindering the constituted authorities of the United States or of this State or any subdivision thereof from giving or securing to all persons within this State the equal protection of the laws; or (b) With the intent, by force or threat of force, to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person because of his exercise of any right secured by Federal, State or local laws, or to intimidate such person or any other person or any class of person from exercising any right secured by Federal, State or local law; or (c) With the intent to intimidate, threaten, abuse or harass any other person; or (d) With the intent to cause another person to fear for his or her personal safety, or, where it is probable that reasonable persons will be put in fear for their personal safety by the defendant's actions, with reckless disregard for such probability; or (e) While engaged in conduct prohibited by civil or criminal law, with the intent of avoiding identification. Section 733.05. In Hernandez v. Superintendent, Fredericksburg-Rappahannock Joint Security Ctr., the court found in part that "a detachable mask worn by KKK members was not constitutionally protected symbolic speech." The theory was that said detachable mask was not "an essential part of traditional Klan regalia," but an optional accessory. In American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan v. County of Bedford, Pennsylvania, the judge struck down as unconstitutional an anti-mask ordinace which he called a "transparent attempt to restrict public rallies of KKK whose organization members are notorious for the hoods that are part of their regalia". Numerous states have "mask enhancements." Florida, for example: 775.0845. Wearing mask while committing offense; reclassification The felony or misdemeanor degree of any criminal offense, other than a violation of ss. 876.12-876.15, shall be reclassified to the next higher degree as provided in this section if, while committing the offense, the offender was wearing a hood, mask, or other device that concealed his or her identity. (1)(a) In the case of a misdemeanor of the second degree, the offense is reclassified to a misdemeanor of the first degree...
Re: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention]
On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:06:03PM +0100, Anonymous wrote: I was unable to locate any other states with statutes addressing "mask wearing" in public (without intent to commit burglary). No doubt the rest of the offending rules are ordinances instead. Also see 18 USC 242 and 42 USC 1985 for criminal and civil penalties, respectively, for "two or more persons" who "go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege" secured by the US constitution or the laws of the United States. -- Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604
Re: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention]
Hot dayum, we got the ATF on that one!!! -p "Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED]@cyberpass.net on 12/09/2000 05:34:17 PM Please respond to Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention] On Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:06:03PM +0100, Anonymous wrote: I was unable to locate any other states with statutes addressing "mask wearing" in public (without intent to commit burglary). No doubt the rest of the offending rules are ordinances instead. Also see 18 USC 242 and 42 USC 1985 for criminal and civil penalties, respectively, for "two or more persons" who "go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege" secured by the US constitution or the laws of the United States. -- Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604
Re: Masks [was: Re: About 5yr. log retention]
Anonymous [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oklahoma has a state statute prohibiting mask wearing (note the exceptions): § 1301. Masks and hoods--Unlawful to wear--Exceptions It shall be unlawful for any person in this state to wear a mask, hood or covering, which conceals the identity of the wearer; provided, this act shall not apply to the pranks of children on Halloween, to those going to, or from, or participating in masquerade parties, to those participating in any public parade or exhibition of an educational, religious or historical character, to those participating in any meeting of any organization within any building or enclosure wholly within and under the control of said organization, and to those participating in the parades or exhibitions of minstrel troupes, circuses or other amusements or dramatic shows. Any person, or persons, violating the provisions of this section of this act, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than Fifty Dollars ($50.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00), or by imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not exceeding one (1) year, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Fascinating. Do they have motorcycles in Oklahoma?
Re: Knowing your customer
Nomen Nescio wrote: I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). How often must your ID card be renewed? What information does it (or the ID database) contain that a German passport does not? it must be renewed every 10 or 5 years (there's two periods, I'm not sure which one applies in what cases). it contains: name, birthday and birth town, nationality, your signature (as you made it on the form), some string of number that contains your birth date and some other information I'm not sure about but which has most likely been published on the web somewhere. on the backside it contains addresse, height, colour of eyes and the issuing authority. there is also a field where you can have a pseudonym or religious name printed if you want to use it for any "official" activities (say, you're a rock star, actor or author and much more people know you under your pseudonmyn than under your real name). height and eye-colour are whatever you put in the form. I doubt it's ever checked. I know mine have been different on all ID cards I've had so far. the frontside also contains a picture of you, almost forgot that. I have no idea what kind of information is linked to this, i.e. what exactly a cop can pull out of his database by entering your ID number.
Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re:
Petro wrote: R. A. Hettinga wrote: [...] As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services in large cities. How do you know they don't? In every office or factory I've ever been in, including government ones where we kept paper copies of tax returns (yes folks, I have worked for the Inland Revenue) there are cleaners. They seem to come in 3 kinds - middle-aged black women, African students working their way through college, and people with vaguely asiatic features who sound as if they are speaking Portuguese. (Sometimes you get a few white students working their way through college but they are more likely to get jobs in bars) If I wanted to hire spies or assassins, I'd go for the middle-aged black women. Preferably short and dumpy and shabbily dressed. Someone who looks like a granny. They can go anywhere, no-one ever stops them or asks them who they are. An invisible woman to match Chesterton's Invisible Man. Ken
Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! (was Re: BNA's Internet LawNews (ILN) - 12/8/00)
At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy policies. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Questions of size...
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: (RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of economics :-) Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same way? Bear
Re: Questions of size...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- At 8:46 AM -0800 on 12/8/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? Not especially. :-). Offhand, I'd refer to many of the things I've seen it used for here as 'distributed' or 'fractal'. Is 'geodesic' an accepted term of art for a network or protocol in which all the parts work roughly the same way? As with everything else I know of any use, I stole it. :-). It comes from Peter Huber's 1986 "The Geodesic Network", containing (Huber's?) observation that as the price of switches gets lower, like with Moore's "law", the price of network nodes gets lower versus the price of network lines, and the network changes from a hierarchical network with expensive switches with the most expensive switches at the top to a geodesic one, with most switches tending toward the same price in the aggregate. Huber stole "geodesic" from Bucky Fuller, who in turn stole it from topology, where it means the straightest line across a surface. In three dimensions it's a great circle, for instance, the straightest line across a sphere, which is what "geodesic" translates to literally. Bucky called his domes geodesic, because when you pushed on a point on the dome force radiated out in all directions to the ground. Of course, the internet is the mother of all geodesic networks, right? :-). I've expropriated the word "geodesic" in all kinds of outlandish ways, like a cash settled auction-priced single intermediary (with lots of competing intermediaries, of course, just one between each buyer and seller) internet market is a geodesic market, like my claim that societies map to their communication architectures and thus we're moving from a hierarchical society to a geodesic one, and so on. There's a collection of essays on geodesic markets on http://www.ibuc.com, and pointers there to other rants of mine with the "G" word in them, as well. Cheers, RAH -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use http://www.pgp.com iQEVAwUBOjEXhsUCGwxmWcHhAQGDigf+KobTrRn4xHJGvGHKauWEtsH90BVG+tJj Z1hIyFD9O5I6Az5+SNt1SO8dYyBqKwk103GzWmu8Gbm+mUJdgy/dp+Aoxou5nPt/ n/Mi2FVpYnzdnRPRbnE10R6hqeBqWoerjonfhhSbWur3TGJUPsJUdbWKeglaygMW 4eMPGCBNeVUufvvbUcQ5iqkA0nxxa+46XREqtFhKybSzBYaA2LfcHPTRoMbzWM8J c7+uias/tuT75pWo0xUA2vX5p2BQM8yHVrs46gunxBkAk2Lz8Ri7P9Pi2c0jOjwa yyYy32ElXgw0gdR16DupSVw/2tTRtZPFyv664FsT8g+Q7/PsNPYiyg== =fx+a -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight! (was Re: BNA's Internet Law News (ILN) - 12/8/00)
On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:07:38AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: | | At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: | | | THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY | A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to | a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American | action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology | to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, | Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would | better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy | policies. | http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20001207/tc/forrester_exec_injects_security_summit_with_harsh_truths_1.html REDMOND, Wash. -- Just a few hours after Bill Gates opened Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) SafeNet 2000 security summit here Thursday on an optimistic note, Forrester Research Inc.'s (Nasdaq:FORR - news) John McCarthy blew it all up. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume
Re: Gates to Privacy Rescue? Riiight!
[[EMAIL PROTECTED] removed from the distribution list. They claimed not to want any politics discussion, and they are a closed list, so why is political discussion going to it?] At 11:50 AM -0500 12/8/00, Adam Shostack wrote: On Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 09:07:38AM -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: | | At 8:30 AM -0500 on 12/8/00, BNA Highlights wrote: | | | THOUGH TECHNOLOGY MIGHT HELP PRIVACY | A meeting of business leaders in Redmond, Washington led to | a frank debate over the insufficiency of North American | action on consumer privacy and the potential for technology | to play a key role in protecting such privacy. For example, | Bill Gates announced that the next version of IE would | better allow consumers to ascertain Web site privacy | policies. | http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/technology/08SECU.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20001207/tc/forrester_exec_injects_security_summit_with_harsh_truths_1.html REDMOND, Wash. -- Just a few hours after Bill Gates opened Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) SafeNet 2000 security summit here Thursday on an optimistic note, Forrester Research Inc.'s (Nasdaq:FORR - news) John McCarthy blew it all up. I read the article (thanks for the URL). Nothing new, and, in fact, several of the old chestnuts about why regulation is needed. The author also mentions that consumers dislike (so?) tracking of their purchases...and then in the next paragraphs cites the Firestone tire recall as an example of better policy than most Web sites have (or something like this...I re-read his analogy several times and still wasn't sure what his claim was). But the irony of juxtaposing Firestone and "customers dislike tracking" is delicious indeed! It is the existence of customer records--generally voluntarily provided by the customer--that allowed Firestone and Ford to contact hundreds of thousands of Explorer owners. I wonder if the author appreciates the irony here? All of this folderol about laws being needed to control privacy must be fought at every stage. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: Questions of size...
At 08:46 AM 12/8/00 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote: On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, petro wrote: Mr. Brown (in the library with a candlestick) said: (RAH might have called it a geodesic political culture if he hadn't got this strange Marxist idea that politics is just an emergent property of economics :-) Just by the way, how widespread is this use of the word 'geodesic'? It depends on how many hops away from Bob Hettinga you are :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fractal geodesic networks
At 3:57 PM -0800 12/8/00, Ray Dillinger wrote: On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Jim Choate wrote: Fractal simply means non-integer dimension. Yeah, that's where it started. But I'm using it more in the sense of meaning the properties that fractal structures have; self-similarity across scales, for one, as in the big nodes work the same way as the little nodes and larger patterns are emergent from the interaction of simple rules. Computer networks, at least copper or fiber based, can't be fractal. Physically, true. There is a minimum size feature, in the sense that some computing hardware and memory is required of every node. In terms of the flow of information, I'm not as sure. Argg. Anyone claiming that something "can't be fractal," as Choate apparently does in the section you quote, just doesn't understand the meaning of fractal. Or, in Choateworld, "Since all physical things have three spatial dimensions, there are no non-integer dimensions, and hence fractals cannot exist." Like Choatian physics, Choatian economics, Choatian law, and Choatian history, such crankish ideas are neither useful nor interesting. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: Re: Fractal geodesic networks
At 5:49 PM -0800 on 12/8/00, Bill Stewart wrote: At 02:47 PM 12/8/00 -0600, Jim Choate emetted: 'fractal geodesic network' is spin doctor bullshit. Well, buzzword bingo output anyway. :-). "Neological" is so much more... euphemisitic... And the Internet is most certainly NOT(!) geodesic with respect to packet paths. more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... Depends on what dimension you're measuring. For fun, I pick time. I leave a definition of fractal time to the more mathematically creative out there. Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Fractal geodesic networks
perhaps the scale larger than the highest layer nodes is no longer recognisable as being part of the fractal. Likewise the nodes at each ppp have some organization as to how they handle data internaly. The shape of a shoreline is often used to illustrate fractal self similarity, but you quickly reach a point where it is hard to call it a shoreline anymore, it becomes grains of sand, pebbles, or boulders. So say you -could- estimate a fractal dimension for the internet. What would the number be good for? - Original Message - From: "Jim Choate" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 8:33 PM Subject: Re: Fractal geodesic networks On Fri, 8 Dec 2000, Bill Stewart wrote: more like a geodesic dome filled with boiled spaghetti... If you think about it this is actually one way to view the Internet. Consider the highest layer nodes. Place them equidistant on a sphere and interconnect them with links. Whether they are geodesic or not isn't relevant (unless you'r using a shortest-path algorithm, which we don't). Anyway. The next thing you do is connect each single user machine to it's appropriate node. Cluster them in a similar manner. You get a globe with little partial globe 'bumps' centered on each 'parent' node. Then from each of these parent nodes, using a different length path for distinguishing, list the multi-user nodes. Then interconnect these nodes. Repeat add infinitum (well you can't realy since the lowest level link, a single ppp link for example can't be broken down into smaller physical links, the net is pseudo-fractal at best at this scale). You can also do them as 'sea urchins'. The reality is that the Internet, as big as it is, is simply too small by several orders of magnitude to be modelled by anything approaching a true fractal. However, by looking at it from the perspective of emergent behaviour from simple rules we can probably gain more understanding and control over its use. Something akin to cellular automatons with simple neighborhood rules interconnected by 'small network' models. Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'/ ``::/|/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com.', `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
RE: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand
At 10:14 AM -0500 12/8/00, Trei, Peter wrote: File: SMIME.txt Sean writes: ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. You can even parse it with your eyeballs. Sean: Guess what: Your message comes as an attachment, which I have to open seperately. Peter By the way, the same problems with MIME, HTML, attachments, etc. is hitting the Newsgroups as well. Some of the newsgroup folks are posting reminders (from charters, FAQs) not to do this. Here's one I just saw in the comp.lang.ruby group: " (a) General format guidelines: - Use *plain* text; don't use HTML, RTF, or Word. - Include examples from files as *in-line* text; don't use attachments. - PLEASE NOTE! Include quoted text from previous posts *BEFORE* your responses. And *selectively* quote as much as is relevant. " Good advice for our list as well. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: Knowing your customer
"R. A. Hettinga" wrote: [...] I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but I certainly hang out with enough of those folks these days, I've certainly had enough of this stuff shoved into my head over the years, and, I expect that to get a bank account without a Social Security number in most states of the US, you probably need to prove that you are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a valid passport as proof of same, and that, frankly, the passport number would be used *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. I manage to pay some US income tax (on some share dividends) without ever having a US SSN. They seem happy not to identify you when they are taking your money. Funny that :-) [...] Modern nation-states have bound up so much of their regulatory and tax structure into book entry settlement, that it is very hard, more probably impossible, to get a bank account in this country without being completely, positively, whatever that means, identified -- biometrically identified, if it were cheap enough, and certainly with a state-issued identification number. UK domestic bank accounts usually require some proof of id, though not our equivalent of your SSN (The "national insurance number" - I suspect most people don't know theirs, but it is printed on every payslip probably hard to keep secret). There is no official government id in UK, except for passports which of course many people have not got. Banks are very keen on proof of address, they ask to see "official" letters (like the gas bill - or an account from another bank) addressed to your name at your house. In fact it is all but impossible to get a bank account without a permanent address. As these days many employers only pay wages through bank accounts... well, that's just one of the reasons the number of homeless people in London went steadily up during the 1980s early 1990s when employment and prosperity were increasing the value of welfare benefits was falling. [...] Ken
Re: Sex abuse Denver Need Help
Sounds like Stephen King's 'The Plant" All right. Question: What has this got to do with a hacking mailing list? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 6:29 AM Subject: Sex abuse Denver Need Help Ritual Satanic Ritual Abuse in Denver Need Help HI and Prrraise the Lord: My wife Rev. Helen ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) got the following e mail message. I didn't know what to do with it. Maybe you know someone that can check this out or pass it on to someone in the Denver area. I sent it to Marilyn Hickey's ministry as she is in Denver. Thanks Rev. Paul at The SPRIG http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings/ 423-496-1114 or 423-496-1777 Turtletown Tennesee Subject: ritual abuse I am a victim of satanic torture and mind control requesting prayer on one of the locations where I was abused and used for pornagraphy. It is Denver's Domestic Violence Shelter @940 E 17th Ave. Very influential citizens are involved they used their planes to fly us out of Denver to be exploited for vile sex. This shelter is still operating in the old mortuary building. Praise God I was delivered! Other victims need help. I couldn't find the sender, this is what I got when checking out sender Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (sp28fe.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.128.108]) by kodos.svc.tds.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09953 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:33:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from cows1.ufl.edu (lwa-246.uflib.ufl.edu [128.227.238.246]) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/2.2.1) with SMTP id OAA124208 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:33:52 -0500 Message-Id: 3.0.3.32.20001112142609.006877ec X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:26:09 -0500 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: ritual abuse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 0ddb519ebc9a52022e4bcc338973ddc8 -- -- SOME CHRISTIAN THINGS OF INTEREST WATCH THE CHURCH CHANNEL LIVE TV ON YOUR COMPUTER CLICK ON http://www.churchchannel.org/ OR http://media.churchchannel.org:8080/ramgen/encoder/church.rm You will need RealPlayer to watch. The Church Channel is a multi-denominational religious network that will feature church service programs 24 hours per day, 7 days a week Read and Listen to the Bible at the same time, click on http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html or http://www.talkingbible.com/ For a Bible Word and Phrase Study click on http://www.branchministry.net/wordstudy/index.html PUT GOD FIRST when you start your web browsing. Use a Christian Home Page. click on http://www.ssusa.net/christianthings. Are you saved, there is nothing more important to do in the world then to ask God into your life. Don't burn in Hell because you didn't say a short prayer. Click on http://www.branchministry.net/salvation/ The Bible in different languages Click on http://www.talkingbible.com/multilingual.html If you need a Prayer answered right now, call Rev. Helen at 423-496-1777. Prayer Works
Tim is innocent was Re: hi
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800, Tim May wrote: At 7:48 PM -0500 12/6/00, Trei, Peter wrote: [ .. ] Anyone else suspect that the original message (from a throw-away yahoo account) is a troll, and wonder if Tim might have been the author? I have suspected this in the past over some postings but the ip address in the headers looks legit. Received: from [194.170.1.68] by web901.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 $ whois 194.170.1.68 route: 194.170.0.0/16 descr: Emirates Telecommunications Corporation Sheikh Zayed II Street P.O. Box 3838 Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. Although I dislike, as ever, Tim's tone in these matters he has, as he often does, a valid point hidden under his bitterness and his experience at an American university is similar to my own, more recent, experiences at English universities. In a basic course that purported to teach "economics" (actually a dumbed down blend of vague sociology and Keynesianism) the majority of students were foreign and had a poor grasp of the English language. The level of debate was poor and the lecturer had an easy job. I am not racist against foreign students and think poking fun at poor English isn't constructive (they generally speak English better than I speak their own language) but there seems to me something basically broken about a system which doesn't teach basic English _before_ trying to teach complex ideas in that language. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] gravity cannot be held responsible for people falling in love. -- albert einstein
RE: Knowing your customer
R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security number to open a bank account Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the US? I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. Peter Trei
RE: Knowing your customer
At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the US? I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. I'm not sure, because I don't have one, but I think that people with Green Cards have to have Social Security Numbers, right? Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
RE: Knowing your customer
Green carders, yes. Visiting foreigners who are not working, not neccesarily. Tourists certainly not. How about if James Higginsbottom opens an account in the London branch of Citibank? Does he need a US SSN to do so? (I don't think so). Can he use the account in the US (I suspect he can). Peter -- From: R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the US? I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. I'm not sure, because I don't have one, but I think that people with Green Cards have to have Social Security Numbers, right? Cheers, RAH
RE: Knowing your customer
At 10:29 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: Green carders, yes. Visiting foreigners who are not working, not neccesarily. Tourists certainly not. How about if James Higginsbottom opens an account in the London branch of Citibank? Does he need a US SSN to do so? (I don't think so). Can he use the account in the US (I suspect he can). I think we're wandering off into the weeds a bit here. The London branch of Citibank, is, of course, a bank in the UK, subject to all banking laws there. Our friend above uses his UK account in the US almost certainly at an ATM machine, like I do from my US bank in the UK, and/or credit card, and no other way. You can certainly get a dollar-denominated bank account in London from Citibank, London is the currency capital of the world, but, and on no real data here, I doubt you could write ACH cleared and routed checks through it. NACHA is trying to do this better, but, in general, you need a correspondent relationship, and/or account, or something, at a bank here in order to write checks on that UK account. My original point, possibly taken too literally at the outset here, is that in most jurisdictions it is more or less impossible to get a US bank account without a social security number, especially if you're a US citizen. Duncan Frissell popped up here on cypherpunks with pointers to the odd bank in South Dakota or somewhere, 4 or 5 years ago, where you could get a bank account without a SSN. It was exceptional in its example, and I would doubt it possible even now. I am not, of course, a banking lawyer, but I certainly hang out with enough of those folks these days, I've certainly had enough of this stuff shoved into my head over the years, and, I expect that to get a bank account without a Social Security number in most states of the US, you probably need to prove that you are indeed a foreign national, *and* provide a valid passport as proof of same, and that, frankly, the passport number would be used *somewhere* as a proxy for SSN where possible. There ain't no free lunch as far as identity and book-entry settlement goes, anymore, folks, even in "tax-haven" jurisdictions, as we're now seeing. Modern nation-states have bound up so much of their regulatory and tax structure into book entry settlement, that it is very hard, more probably impossible, to get a bank account in this country without being completely, positively, whatever that means, identified -- biometrically identified, if it were cheap enough, and certainly with a state-issued identification number. To paraphrase Doug Barnes, "and then you go to jail" is the penultimate error-handling step in book-entry settlement. That means that the nation-state gets in your face, and gets your number, end of story. That is a central fact of financial operations won't change until something proves cheaper that book-entry settlement. Which, of course, lots of people on cypherpunks, and elsewhere, are busy working on. Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Bill Clinton belatedly decides that pot smoking should not be criminal
-- At 05:39 AM 12/7/2000 -0500, Matthew Gaylor wrote: The US Corrections System currently has 458,000 Drug War Prisoners. This figure may be a substantial under estimate, for it is fairly common practice in some courts, when someone is charged with a serious victimless illegal act, to offer a plea bargain where he pleads guilty to a crime that in theory supposedly has a victim, despite the absence of any complainant, a crime somehow connected to theft, guns and violence, despite the absence of any specific identifiable person robbed or threatened by these guns or violence. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG IMbO+yh1UkDtUkPKlB6E7DsnRwamnzIDr1j5upMw 4wsWH9+U/GwzrU3OioU3UGXbpCqEEXt4oiSwC3KLT
RE: Knowing your customer
-- At 10:20 AM -0500 on 12/7/00, Trei, Peter wrote: Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the US? I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. At 10:25 AM 12/7/2000 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: I would be surprised if you didn't need at least a tax ID number, myself. Many years ago I, as a non resident of the US and non citizen of the US, opened an account in US dollars at a US branch of the bank of America without a social security number or a tax ID number. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG MfEDmSJiMYlcOEQBhlqUxwBSUTHW1kq6y5nnKsOx 4kxay6Xr+ylDqWbjRvUsznWW6aIAzbaL/ZAaLQbk6
Re: Knowing your customer
"Trei, Peter" wrote: R. A. Hettinga[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security number to open a bank account Are you saying that a visiting foreigner can't open a bank account in the US? I'd be quite suprised if this is the case. I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts).
Re: Tim is innocent was Re: hi
At 10:27 AM + 12/7/00, Steve Mynott wrote: On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:02:17PM -0800, Tim May wrote: Rasha sounds like the typical illiterate student who has to take remedial English upon her arrival at Beaver College. I had a roommate in college who was one of these types, having to take the equivalent of "English for Dummies." He couldn't spell, he couldn't construct a sentence, and he couldn't read worth a damn. Although I dislike, as ever, Tim's tone in these matters he has, as he often does, a valid point hidden under his bitterness and his experience at an American university is similar to my own, more recent, experiences at English universities. In a basic course that purported to teach "economics" (actually a dumbed down blend of vague sociology and Keynesianism) the majority of students were foreign and had a poor grasp of the English language. The level of debate was poor and the lecturer had an easy job. I am not racist against foreign students and think poking fun at poor English isn't constructive (they generally speak English better than I speak their own language) but there seems to me something basically broken about a system which doesn't teach basic English _before_ trying to teach complex ideas in that language. Nor am I a racist. I don't even believe the concept of "race" is a meaningful one. After all, the latest evidence from mitochondrial DNA studies is that nearly everyone in the world is descended from a group which was in Africa about 50,000 years ago. A mere blink of an eye. However, I believe people and groups of people, through their culture, vary in their approach to education. Few can dispute that Jews are very strongly represented in medicine, law, science, and professions in general...and underrepresented in sports, for example. Few can dispute the opposite about blacks, at least in America. There are well-known _cultural_ reasons for this. Without even giving the ethnic group for these statements, it is obvious which ones they belong to: "My son, the _doctor_." "Books are for whiteys." The role of culture is readily apparent at public libraries in Silicon Valley. Large numbers of Asians, men and women, usually in couples, with large numbers of Asian children hauling armloads of books. And Asian children dominate the science fairs, the engineering programs. (The Vietnamese do especially well. This was noticeable to many of us as early as 1980-83, when the Valedictorians and Salutatorians--the top students--at area high schools were largely "boat people." These BPs had "floated under the Golden Gate Bridge in rafts," as I like to say, and yet several years later they had mastered enough English to dominate their high schools. It was seeing this that finished off any sympathy I had that black and Mexican students were failing because they hadn't mastered English, blah blah blah. I realized it was culture, pressure from parents, and desire to succeed.) One could look at the success of blacks who are from the West Indies, and who tend to be academically-oriented, to see that culture is more important than race. Many blacks from the Dominican Republic, even dirt-poor Haiti, are doctors and lawyers. The issue remains culture. Perhaps a remnant of slavery, perhaps a remnant of the plantation lifetstyle. Whatever. They must change this culture. Whitey and Big Brother can't do it for them. The black family in America is fragmented, drug use is rampant, children are strongly, strongly discouraged by their peers and their mothers (the fathers are absent, in most cases) from academically excelling. A culture of "deliberate slacking," like a union shop that is on a work slowdown. Those who excel, academically, are seen as "white inside" with a variety of deprecating names applied to them. Obviously this is not true in all cases. There are black scientists and black doctors, and there are Jewish tramps and winos, Asian drug dealers. But the "distributions" basically fit what I have described. And many black intellectuals, dismissed by other blacks as Unca Toms and "race traitors," are saying the same thing with increasing concern about their culture. Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, many others. Biologically, it is just plain crazy to think that groups which only recently scattered into Europe, Japan, Australia, and other corners of the world have evolved different brain structures. They haven't. But cultures can change in the blink of an eye, in a few decades. This is what is at issue. Call me a culturalist, but not a racist. Correlation is not causation. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
Re: nambla
At 12:09 PM -0500 12/7/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. Officer Matt Frewberg, We are unable to process your request at this time. We are busy here supplying Law Enforcement with the bomb-making information that their supervisor, Sen. Feinstein, has ordered them to find on the Internet. --Tim May -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
RE: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify
Title: RE: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify Yes, if you receive a subpoena, there will be information with the document that instructs you on how to contact a clerk that will make travel arrangements for you if necessary. The rule here is that they will compensate you, or outright pay for, the cheapest method of transportation. In other words, if it is cheaper to drive, then they will not pay for a ticket. It does not mean that you will be riding in a goat truck or something of that nature. Any additional expenses associated with testifying can be indicated on a form that you will generally receive when you arrive. As for the forty dollars a day, this is true as well. ok, Rush -Original Message- From: Tim May [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 3:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: My plan to deal with subpoenas to testify At 1:08 PM -0800 12/6/00, Tim May wrote: At 3:52 PM -0500 12/6/00, Declan McCullagh wrote: (Note about expenses: I had heard during the Parker trial that various witnesses called to travel to Washington were to submit travel expense receipts. Is this true? What part of the Constitution says citizens must Yes. It's a standard government form. They also paid something like $25 a day while you waited outside the courtroom before being called to the stand, and $40 a day you actually testified. Yay. As I said, it's not my job to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc. and then fill out a government form. Actually, I remember someone saying during the Parker case that a government travel office would make all travel and lodging arrangements. Not my job to lend money to the government. I'm watching a lawyer on the stand in the Seminole County part of the rolling trial say that he charges $500 an hour to testify in court cases. Sounds like a good fee for me to charge. I mis-spoke. He's not a lawyer...he's a statistics professor. Still, sounds like a good fee to charge for my expert testimony on Bell's scheme, should it come down to this. --Tim -- (This .sig file has not been significantly changed since 1992. As the election debacle unfolds, it is time to prepare a new one. Stay tuned.)
RE: Knowing your customer
At 8:59 AM -0800 on 12/7/00, James A. Donald wrote: Many years ago Ah. :-). Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: RE: Re: About 5yr. log retention
- Original Message - From: "Tom Vogt" [EMAIL PROTECTED] [re: Muslim women in vail, uncovering] that would be interesting to watch. for those people, the "masquerade" is NON optional, and - as I understand it - they simply can't give in. contrary to all the internet privacy, where we are unwilling to give in to even more privacy being taken away, but we CAN if i were to cloak my desire for privacy in the words of the Great Squid, would it be more legitimate?
Re: Knowing your customer
Tom Vogt wrote: I guess an equivalent ID will do. in germany, you need your ID card to open a bank account (um, for those not in the know: we have state-issue ID cards in addition to passports. the passport is a travel document, used to visit non-EU countries. the ID card is used inside the EU and for national purposes (identification, mostly). you are NOT required to have it with you all the time or somesuch, but some activities, such as opening a bank account, require an ID card. driving license or other documents will do in many cases, but I think not for bank accounts). How often must your ID card be renewed? What information does it (or the ID database) contain that a German passport does not?
RE: Knowing your customer
R. A. Hettinga wrote: Duncan Frissell popped up here on cypherpunks with pointers to the odd bank in South Dakota or somewhere, 4 or 5 years ago, where you could get a bank account without a SSN. It was exceptional in its example, and I would doubt it possible even now. ... Has anyone recently attempted to open a non-interest bearing checking account without giving out an SSAN? What possible rationale (aside from "bank policy," "identification when you lose your passbook," "it's easier for us this way," or "the computer won't let us do that") could a bank (or the fedgov) have for requiring social security account numbers on such accounts?
Re: Signatures and MIME Attachments Getting Out of Hand
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:39:29PM -0800, petro wrote: Mr. May said: At 2:27 PM -0500 12/3/00, Adam Langley wrote: Attachment converted: G4 Tower HD:UK Govt seeks to capture and st (MiME/CSOm) (F86A) This is really getting out of hand! Attempting to open this message, by clicking on the attachment, bombs/crashes my Eudora Pro 5.0.1 mailer. Repeatedly--I tried 4 times. [...] Also, since when is crashing a proper response to *any* email message? I don't think you have the PGP/MIME-using people to blame, nor should we be expected to fix your lousy email program. I can understand people's desire to be able to read messages, but even if your MUA does not support MIME, if you look at this message in plain text you can read it without any sort of formatting problems. Only mailers that have incorrect MIME support will have problems with it, and that's simply not any of our problem. ASCII plain text *is* The Way. But guess what, PGP/MIME *is* plain text. You can even parse it with your eyeballs. -- Sean R. Lynch KG6CVV [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.literati.org/~seanl/ "Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem!" -Ronald Reagan, 1984 540F 19F2 C416 847F 4832 B346 9AF3 E455 6E73 B691 PGP signature
Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re:
At 05:31 PM 12/5/00 -0500, R. A. Hettinga wrote: An instructive case. Apparently they used the keystroke monitoring to obtain the pgp passphrase, which was then used to decrypt the files. A PDA would have been harder to hack, one imagines. Are there padlockable metal cases for PDAs? As I've written, the FBI should run quality house cleaning services in large cities. How do you know they don't? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re: BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00)
Mr. May: Frankly, the PGP community veered off the track toward crapola about standards, escrow, etc., instead of concentrating on the core issues. PGP as text is a solved problem. The rest of the story is to ensure that pass phrases and keys are not black-bagged. Forget fancy GUIs, forget standards...concentrate on the real threat model. What is the real threat model? Everybody has different worries. I'm not a bookie, I don't do work for the mob, I don't spend more than I earn. My biggest threat is (1) financial (stolen credit card numbers, or other form of credential fraud) (2) Political--that comments here and other places get me the list of "People To Take Care Of Later". The first threat can be dealt with by "cheap" crypto deployed everywhere--to co-opt one of RAH's phrases--a "Geodesicly encrypted network. In a network where every single stinking bit on the wire is encrypted at as many layers as possible, even with "10 cent" crypto will virtually eliminate (by making it more expensive) many of the low level financial threats. Yes, big banks and large financial institutions need stronger crypto, but they can multiple-encrypt, write their own protocols etc.). The second threat would be made much harder by the encrypt everything all the time type of network, if I weren't so thick headed as to insist on using my Real Name. This is presumably what the "PGP Community" veered off towards. Unfortunately, they've done a half-assed job so far. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ** "Despite almost every experience I've ever had with federal authority, I keep imagining its competence." John Perry Barlow
Re: nambla
What I find most annoying about police entrapment is the damage to children these police offers are responsible for. Bob Matthews who heads up the anti child porn squad in ontario spends most of his days raiding the homes of potential child molesters who turn out to be kids. Alot of kids pretend to be much older when online and they end up being targeted by these perverted law enforment twits who end up sending them filth and effectively convencing our kids that this sort of thing is good. They are becoming the problem. On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Eric Cordian wrote: Apparently the FBI is now accepting Army applicant rejects as employees... On Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:09:06 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Could you e-mail with some sites I could go to and see young male porn. Saw your e-mail at a nambla site. I have not been able to find any young male porn sites. Would appreciate the help. Either that, or Jeff Gordon has decided he likes little boys. :) -- Joe Baptista http://www.dot.god/ dot.GOD Hostmaster +1 (805) 753-8697
Re: Buying Mein Kampf via the Net
fogstorm wrote: So if an Australian puts it on his web site can the German government sue for copyright infringement? Can they prosecute for violation of their anti Nazi laws? If a German citizen views it in Amsterdam can his government prosecute when he returns home? they'll most likely try to, if only to avoid some left-wing magazine headline along the lines of "german government allows nazi propaganda to remain online". there will be NO prosecution for "viewing" it. almost everyone over 60 may have read the damn book, and lots of copies are still around (many people got one for their marriage or other events, and keep them as memoralia(sp?)). this ain't thought-police. you are perfectly free to read this thing. AFAIK you aren't allowed to sell it, but that's it.
Re: IBM Uses Keystroke-monitoring in NJ Mob Case (was Re:BNA'sInternet Law News (ILN) - 12/5/00)
At 9:56 PM -0800 on 12/5/00, Greg Broiles wrote: On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 05:16:03PM -0800, Tim May wrote: The legal fight over whether the monitor was legal and whether the information so obtained are in fact records of criminal activity is a side-show. It remains practical evidence of how insecure computer equipment / OS's and pass-phrase based identity authentication combine to reduce the effective security of a system. I fully support this comment that the whole issue of "legality" is a "side show." Exactly - not every attacker represents law enforcement, Right. My own personal opinion is that the more *money* is controlled with cryptography and moved/stored on the internet, the stronger those technologies will become, and, unfortunately, not for any other reason. Like Whit Diffie has said, "cyberwar" will be "fought" by businesses, and not nation-states. Government black-bag jobs are just one of many kinds of theft... Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Knowing your customer
A minor clarification: The formal proposal known as "Know Your Customer" was withdrawn (see my back articles on that topic). But other regulations in the same vein require banks to require ID. -Declan On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 11:18:53AM -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 06:40:08PM -, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote: Payee traceability had nothing to do with it. Every customer of MTB, whether an end user or a merchant, had to fully identify himself to the bank, including SSN and for merchants, type of business, etc. This is SOP for other payment systems like credit cards. It was on this basis that MTB was able to screen their merchants. No payee tracing was necessary. A fully untraceable cash system would have been equally amenable to merchant screening. Any vendor has the right to control whom it does business with, and MTB chose to exercise its discretion in this way. I don't know if MTB had a lot of discretion - banks are subject to the federal "know your customer" regulations. You can't get depositor anonymity from a bank chartered in the US, at least not without at least one level of corporate indirection (e.g., the bank "knows its customer" who is a domestic or foreign closely-held corp, who does the bidding of its unidentified-to-the-bank-and-FINCEN shareholders). The Texas couple in the news recently made a different choice and decided to provide payment services for child pornographers, as James Donald recommends. Now MTB is still in business (after merging with MTL and then FSR) and the Texans are in jail. Which made a better choice? Sounds like the Texans knew too much about their customers - if they operated a content-neutral service which had many, many customers, one of whom happened to be a child-porn service, they'd be doing fine, especially if they shut off the child porn people if/when notified by law enforcement of the activity. Does the FBI shut down AOL and Earthlink when their subscribers traffic in child porn? -- Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604
Re: Knowing your customer
On Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 12:07:57PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: A minor clarification: The formal proposal known as "Know Your Customer" was withdrawn (see my back articles on that topic). But other regulations in the same vein require banks to require ID. I'm not a banking law geek, but I believe that there are federal regs in place known as "know your customer" rules which apply to depository institutions like banks, credit unions, etc - the regs which were withdrawn would have required NBFI's (non-bank financial institutions) to comply with similar rules, as they're sometimes used instead of banks to avoid the KYC rules. Or am I thinking of something else? -- Greg Broiles [EMAIL PROTECTED] PO Box 897 Oakland CA 94604
Re: Re: About 5yr. log retention
Jim Choate blindly wrote: What law? The law was quoted just below the citation we provided: 18 USC 2703(f). The news report quotation exactly matches what the law says about preservation. Not that you'll read it but here it is again: Here's the source for news story report about data preservation requirement: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/COEFAQs.htm Preservation is not a new idea; it has been the law in the United States for nearly five years. 18 U.S.C. 2703(f) requires an electronic communications service provider to "take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process" upon "the request of a governmental entity." This applies in practice only to reasonably small amounts of specified data identified as relevant to a particular case where the service provider already has control over that data. Similarly, as with traditional subpoena powers, issuance of an order to an individual or corporation to produce specified data during the course of an investigation carries with it an obligation not to delete or destroy information falling within the scope of that order when that information is in the persons possession or control. - And here is the law cited by the DoJ FAQ: From the US Code via GPO Access: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aaces002.html 18 USC 2703(f) (f) Requirement To Preserve Evidence.-- (1) In general.--A provider of wire or electronic communication services or a remote computing service, upon the request of a governmental entity, shall take all necessary steps to preserve records and other evidence in its possession pending the issuance of a court order or other process. (2) Period of retention.--Records referred to in paragraph (1) shall be retained for a period of 90 days, which shall be extended for an additional 90-day period upon a renewed request by the governmental entity. - Now, remember, "evidence" is what law-industry promoters call what civilians call "information." Evidence is used to force subservience to the law-industry. Information is used to fight those narrow-mindfuckers. So, Jim, stop calling information evidence unless you're bragging about fucking your peabrain.
RE: iPaq
There's also a Linux port, if you want to kid yourself that you're going to check the OS security yourself. Peter Trei -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Reply To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 12:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: iPaq The device has extension ports that allow PCMCIA and Compact Flash. These adapters are in the $50 range. There are wireless modems available but they're fairly pricey : ~$350 for the modem, $50.month for the service. All in all it looks pretty good. Schematics/specs open, Linux/X already ported. The specs are reasonable ( unlike Palm ) it's a 206MHz ARM9, USB, Audio, 320x240x12bit display, 16Mb FLASH, 32Mb DRAM if I recall correctly. Throw in a 512Mb IBM microdrive, CFS, it's not bad. Looks like the most secure option to me. Gateway SW over USB ( even for M$ OS ) shouldn't be too tough. I guess you could trust an M$ machine to handle already encrypted packets.
Re: Knowing your customer
At 9:04 AM -0800 on 12/6/00, Greg Broiles wrote: Or am I thinking of something else? You're thinking of something else, but you're close enough. For instance, there are laws in most jurisdictions about requiring a social security number to open a bank account, for any of a number of reasons including credit checks, and checks on how many, um, negative-funded, bank accounts you might have hanging out there before you opened this one. More to the point, since interest is taxable income for individuals, and a tax deductible expense for corporations, social security numbers are required in order to pay you interest. [And, yes, Duncan may be right, you might be able to spoof an SSN at them somehow, but I don't know anyone who's actually done it, admitted it in any public detail, and not been somehow razzed legally for it.] Kind of reminds me of TEFRA, in 1993 or so, which outlawed bearer bonds by making interest payable on them "non-tax-deductible" (taxable, for those in Palm Beach County). [The answer to this "lie to the government, don't get a bank account" problem, which any persistent cypherpunk subscriber knows, is, of course, to have payment systems which don't *need* physical identity for non-repudiation of transactions and the subsequent requirement of the force of a nation-state to make settlement risk manageable: bearer certificates based on cryptographic protocols like blind signatures, which will, frankly, only *really* be possible, soup-withdrawl to nuts-deposit, when a bearer currency issue is *itself* reserved by other digital bearer assets, instead of just a book-entry account somewhere.] Cheers, RAH -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Re: Knowing your customer
Oh, and the proposed KYC rules would have required banks to go further than requiring ID (other current rules, as you say, require that) and try to determine source of funds, etc. -Declan You're thinking of something slightly different. The Fed-Treasury-FDIC action that caused so much fuss would have made "suggested" KYC rules that apply to banks mandatory. Here's the federal register notice abandoning the propsed KYC regs: http://www.politechbot.com/p-00315.html -Declan
