Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Mirimir]

On 06/26/2020 10:05 PM, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 23:54:01 +
> таракан  wrote:
> 
>> Well I guess Cypherpunks aren't necessarily trying to destroy governments, 
>> there are plenty of organizations doing that very well... especially their 
>> own secret services.
>>
>> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are 
>> trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
> 
> 
>   https://www.activism.net/cypherpunk/crypto-anarchy.html
> 
>   
> ..
>   Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
>   tc...@netcom.com   | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>   408-688-5409   | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
>   W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
>   Higher Power: 2^756839 | PGP Public Key: by arrangement.

Yeah, that's a decent list. As I've understood it, however, "collapse of
governments" is the expected result, once the rest are effectively in
place. Eliminating a particular government through armed struggle has
typically led either to another government, or to a failed state. But if
you create the basis of functional anarchy, government is superfluous.

Re: Coronavirus: Thread - wtf psycho octopus cells

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 06:23:44PM -0400, grarpamp wrote:
> https://www.top10vpn.com/research/investigations/covid-19-digital-rights-tracker/
> In response to the outbreak of COVID-19:
> Contact Tracing Apps are being used in 28 countries
> Alternative digital tracking measures are active in 35 countries
> Physical surveillance technologies are in use in 11 countries
> COVID-19-related censorship has been imposed by 18 governments
> Internet shutdowns continue in 3 countries despite the outbreak
> 
> Current score... Corona: 5, Statists: 100, Censors: 85, Economy: -35,
> Humanity: 0



I have no words for this - may be "caution advised" though :

[That super zoomed image man! W T F!]

   Coronavirus Causes Weaponized 'Tentacles' To Sprout From Infected Cells, 
Directly Inject Virus Into New Ones
   
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/coronavirus-causes-weaponized-tentacles-sprout-infected-cells-directly-inject-virus

  .."There are long strings that poke holes in other cells and the virus 
passes through the tube from cell to cell," said UCSF's Director of the 
Quantitative Biosciences Institute, Professor Nevan Krogan. "Our hypothesis is 
that these speed up infection."

 The images taken by scientists at the National Institutes of Health 
(NIH) laboratory in the US and University of Freiburg in Germany will be 
published in the medical journal Cell on Saturday.

 Most viruses do not cause infected cells to grow these tentacles. Even 
those that do, such as smallpox, do not have as many or the same type of 
branching as Sars-Cov-2, the virus behind Covid-19. -FT

  ...

Re: BET founder Robert Johnson: "black people should be consulted before .. tearing down statues or firing someone for a comment they have made"

[Zig the N.g]

No, not black.

Yes, to coin a phrase - we must believe everything our "superiors" tell us :)

By the way, I prefer to only receive one reply email, to the list, or one email 
in private if that's your preferred thing.  Having to delete the dupes ought be 
not neccessary.

So ya reckon there's marketing AI going on? I heard that was a conspiracy?



On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:28:59AM -0400, Karl wrote:
> Zig are you Black?
> 
> Karl Semich, coerced white anarchoprimitivist
> 
> There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
> group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
> responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
> people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
> masse, for profit.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 9:02 AM Zig the N.g  wrote:
> 
> > Woah muh n.gger, a little too much truth there bruh
> >
> >
> >BET Founder Says "Black People Laugh At White People" Toppling Statues
> >  Alex Nitzberg via JustTheNews.com,
> >
> > https://justthenews.com/nation/culture/bet-founder-robert-johnson-says-black-people-laugh-white-people-toppling-statues
> >
> > https://www.zerohedge.com/political/bet-founder-says-black-people-laugh-white-people-toppling-statues
> >
> >   BET founder Robert Johnson during a Wednesday interview with Fox
> > News described people toppling statues as "borderline anarchists" and
> > pushed back against the idea that black people support such behavior,
> > suggesting instead that they "laugh" at those who knock down the statues.
> >
> >   "You know black people, in my opinion, black people laugh at
> > white people who do this, the same way we laugh at white people who say we
> > got to take off the TV shows," he said mentioning the "Dukes of Hazard," a
> > decades-old television program that has come under fire for featuring a car
> > emblazoned with a Confederate flag graphic.
> >
> >   He pointed out that knocking over a statue will not "close the
> > wealth gap," "give a kid whose parent's can't afford a college money to go
> > to college," "close the labor gap between what white workers are paid and
> > what black workers are paid" or "take people off welfare or food stamps."
> >
> >   Johnson said that whites who seek to "assuage guilt by doing things
> > that make them feel good" would be much more reluctant to support payments
> > for blacks.
> >
> >   Referring to actions such as "changing names, toppling statues,
> > [and] firing professors because they said all lives matter," Johnson
> > explained that "it just shows to me that white America is continually ...
> > incapable of recognizing that black people have their own ideas and thought
> > about what's in their best interests."
> >
> >   ...
> >
> >

Coriolis effect - some science for ya nuts - [SCIENCE]

[Zenaan Harkness]

There is nothing quite like actually doing a test and checking the results.

Now the below is not a particurary well done experiment - more a gimmicky 
tourist experiment - and so the way to (perhaps) better do it is with a larger 
circular container, and importantly with a smaller water exit hole, so that:

the water can be poured into the vessel in the "wrong" direction (at least a 
little) and then there ought be sufficient time for the coriolis effect to 
overcome this 'wrong' water rotation, and cause the water to actually change 
its rotation back to the "right" direction.

That would be compelling to witness.

If the coriolis effect is insufficient to overcome a small yet visually evident 
water rotation in the 'wrong' direction, we then need to devise some other 
experiment to reach that 'truly compelling' resultant (onlooker) impression 
which our fragile "science virtue signalling" egos so desperately crave...

Assuming for a moment that this "coriolis effect" is in fact real, we need to 
be able to strictly separate this effect from initial starting conditions, 
which could e.g. be demonstrated if the effect is able fo ovelcome some other 
effect, or can be shown to be visibly different from alternative starting 
conditions, or etc.

Based on personal measurements of Pi π which bring into serious doubt π's 
"known" third significant digit, can we be certain that regarding this coriolis 
effect, that we are not just witnessing rotational inertia of the water 
molecules picking up speed from initial but tiny (thus unseen) starting water 
swirl?  When conducting experiments, it is often the boundary conditions which 
are of interest and not the steady state (e.g. that we see in the video below).

Enjoy,



- Forwarded message from Novica Saponja  -

From: Novica Saponja 
To: 'Zenaan Harkness' 
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:46:13 +1000
Subject: FW: FASCINATING...
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0

 Thought you might find this interesting.

 The EQUATOR - It is a precise line. Click on view to see how razor sharp
the division Is between the Northern Hemisphere and the Southern Hemisphere.
We all learned in school that water goes down a drain clockwise in the
Northern Hemisphere and just the opposite in the Southern Hemisphere. But
who knew this simple activity could be so precise? Watch the attached video,
and you'll see it with your own eyes. The Equator Line passes through Kenya
and Tanzania. This video demonstrates how precisely the earth's rotational
forces work . . . . . even when the drains being used are just a few feet
apart!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWc9SfwnSxM


- End forwarded message -

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[recondite]

There's some in the aether somewhere. 

The vulgarity is a side effect of free speech. But me, I'm fine with it. Would 
much rather be able to call a spade a spade instead of guessing who is what in 
the kayfabe of normalcy. 

But you're right a true cypher punk wouldn't be disgussing plans to subvert 
government on an open message board

Jun 26, 2020, 18:19 by cryptoanalyz...@protonmail.com:

> I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography.
> However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by the 
> Cypherpunk's manifesto.
>
> I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original Cypherpunk 
> movement...
> Obviously it contains many inordinate messages containing vulgar terms.
>
> I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place on earth 
> Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?
>
> ---
> Crypto
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> CRYPTOANALYZER
> --
>
>
> Sent from > ProtonMail > , encrypted email based in 
> Switzerland.
>
> Sent with > ProtonMail >  Secure Email.
>
>

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Mirimir]

On 06/26/2020 06:31 PM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 21:28 Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Fucking love you, Shawn.  F words for you, hahahaha!!!  <3
> 
> But, sorry, moderation in our specific case would be censorship...  Who, in
> this world or in all the other ones, would accept a message of mine, for
> example?  I was and I am a moderator in a few other lists, so I do not
> trust the other moderators for good personal reasons.  I can be useful, but
> not 100% fair without all the informations behind a single message.

Yes, that's exactly it.

> It can be bullshit, but it can be someone sincerely asking for help.  And
> not all the moderators are good persons.  Do you understand my sad point of
> view?  :-/

I do, anyway. And I gotta say, I'm happy to see _you_ posting again.
I've been very worried about you.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Mirimir]

On 06/26/2020 04:54 PM, таракан wrote:



> My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are 
> trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.
> 
> I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would 
> be to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor 
> and spy someone.

That's pretty much what I'm still up to.

Regarding all the crap, cypherpunks lists had just as much back in the
90s. And crap -- however that shows up for you -- is pretty much
unavoidable, for any list, site or system that doesn't censor. Consider
Freenet, for example. Or Tor onion sites.

The point is that you can filter the list however you like. Or subscribe
to a version of the list that's been filtered for you. Back in the 90s,
I subscribed to fcpunx back then, to avoid the worst of it. Someone
could do something similar now, but the volume is so low that it'd
hardly be worth it. Just filter in your mail client.

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Cecilia Tanaka]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 21:28 Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:



Fucking love you, Shawn.  F words for you, hahahaha!!!  <3

But, sorry, moderation in our specific case would be censorship...  Who, in
this world or in all the other ones, would accept a message of mine, for
example?  I was and I am a moderator in a few other lists, so I do not
trust the other moderators for good personal reasons.  I can be useful, but
not 100% fair without all the informations behind a single message.

It can be bullshit, but it can be someone sincerely asking for help.  And
not all the moderators are good persons.  Do you understand my sad point of
view?  :-/

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 6/26/20 18:19, таракан wrote:
> I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography. 
> However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by 
> the Cypherpunk's manifesto.
> 
> I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original 
> Cypherpunk movement... Obviously it contains many inordinate
> messages containing vulgar terms.

I'm still scratching my head wondering what  flagrant racism,
antisemitism, etc have to do with the cypherpunk movement and/or
securing technology through encryption. Just kidding... they don't,  but
apparently since a certain other list is moderated (or if you'd believe
some people, "censored"), all that stuff just gets posted here. I've
even seen this list cc'd or even threads outright redirected here when
it wouldn't pass muster on the other list. Yes, that list is a
"technical" list, and I'm not saying this list should become a carbon
copy of it, but this is what I'm talking about regarding topic drift.

> I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place 
> on earth Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?

I support the original mission of the cypherpunks movement. As stated in
the Wikipedia article:

> A cypherpunk is any activist[1] advocating widespread use of strong 
> cryptography and privacy-enhancing technologies as a route to social 
> and political change.

There are times and places where one must protect themselves from
security risks wearing blue and carrying badges and guns as much as the
ones wearing black and balaclavas, or whatever disguise garb criminals
wear these days. In a perfect world the cops could be trusted to obey
the same laws they are supposed to be enforcing and living up to the
standard of "'s finest" as they are often called. We,
unfortunately, do not live in anything close to a perfect world.

The way it's looking though, regularly slinging antisemitic, racist, and
other slurs, and sticking up for the right to spew outright bullshit
where it's not wanted, appear to be someone's idea of de facto
qualifications to be a "true cypherpunk". I refuse to do either; I see
the ideal form of the cypherpunk movement as egalitarian, where those of
all ethnicities and backgrounds are treated equally and given the same
chance to participate in beneficial social and political change. Yes,
this specifically includes Jews and people of color, as well as LGBTQ+
populations and other marginalized groups.

Honestly, if you're going to shut out some people, or use exclusionary
language such as well-recognized slurs that are avoided by people who
use the word "fuck" like they would use salt and pepper on bland food,
then you're no better than the authorities you pretend to hate. United
we stand, divided we fall.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

Re: Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

Well I guess Cypherpunks aren't necessarily trying to destroy governments, 
there are plenty of organizations doing that very well... especially their own 
secret services.

My understanding of Cypherpunks is - as per their Manifesto - that they are 
trying to build privacy in a world where privacy is becoming a crime.

I thought recently that the biggest 'weapon' against a fascism regime would be 
to create the inability for that fascist regime to track, locate, monitor and 
spy someone.

I walk in the street right now. Nobody knows who I am. My neighbor doesn't know 
my name. I rent a flat without any ID. Nobody knows my name. My SIM card isn't 
linked to any ID (true). My credit card isn't my own credit card but belongs to 
someone who doesn't know me really. I get paid in Bitcoins. I go to a local 
shop and get cash against BTC without showing any ID. My phone cannot track me 
because it hasn'\t a GPS and so on ...

I know that with the time that sort of life will be harder and harder. Hence I 
feel it is a noble task to build a system where people can live a normal life 
and stay anonymous - as they want.

Anything we want to do now, we must *prove* that we are not criminals, we must 
take pictures of ourselves, dancing in front of a webcam and so on... not for 
me.

Interesting enough soon there will be Quantum crypto, and maybe NSA has already 
it.
How long can we trust these good old programs such as PGP? RSA wouldn't last a 
long time against a quantum computer ...

--
CRYPTOANALYZER
--

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch), encrypted email based in 
Switzerland.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, 27 June 2020 г., 2:41,  wrote:

> There's some in the aether somewhere.
>
> The vulgarity is a side effect of free speech. But me, I'm fine with it. 
> Would much rather be able to call a spade a spade instead of guessing who is 
> what in the kayfabe of normalcy.
>
> But you're right a true cypher punk wouldn't be disgussing plans to subvert 
> government on an open message board
>
> Jun 26, 2020, 18:19 by cryptoanalyz...@protonmail.com:
>
>> I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography.
>> However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by the 
>> Cypherpunk's manifesto.
>>
>> I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original Cypherpunk 
>> movement...
>> Obviously it contains many inordinate messages containing vulgar terms.
>>
>> I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place on 
>> earth Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?
>>
>> ---
>> Crypto
>>
>> --
>> CRYPTOANALYZER
>> --
>>
>> Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch), encrypted email based in 
>> Switzerland.
>>
>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

Any Cypherpunk there ?

[таракан]

I am a Mathematician and involved in "industrial" cryptography.
However, I am interested in the Cypherpunk movement as described by the 
Cypherpunk's manifesto.

I am unsure if this mailing list still relates to the original Cypherpunk 
movement...
Obviously it contains many inordinate messages containing vulgar terms.

I also do believe that a public mailing list would be the last place on earth 
Cypherpunks would choose to meet and discuss but who knows?

---
Crypto

--
CRYPTOANALYZER
--

Sent from [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.ch), encrypted email based in 
Switzerland.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

Re: BET founder Robert Johnson: "black people should be consulted before .. tearing down statues or firing someone for a comment they have made"

[Karl]

Zig are you Black?

Karl Semich, coerced white anarchoprimitivist

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics.  Proof that a marketing
group would contract development of a frightening virus.  A virus that
responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what
people see on their devices.  A virus that alters political behavior en
masse, for profit.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 9:02 AM Zig the N.g  wrote:

> Woah muh n.gger, a little too much truth there bruh
>
>
>BET Founder Says "Black People Laugh At White People" Toppling Statues
>  Alex Nitzberg via JustTheNews.com,
>
> https://justthenews.com/nation/culture/bet-founder-robert-johnson-says-black-people-laugh-white-people-toppling-statues
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/bet-founder-says-black-people-laugh-white-people-toppling-statues
>
>   BET founder Robert Johnson during a Wednesday interview with Fox
> News described people toppling statues as "borderline anarchists" and
> pushed back against the idea that black people support such behavior,
> suggesting instead that they "laugh" at those who knock down the statues.
>
>   "You know black people, in my opinion, black people laugh at
> white people who do this, the same way we laugh at white people who say we
> got to take off the TV shows," he said mentioning the "Dukes of Hazard," a
> decades-old television program that has come under fire for featuring a car
> emblazoned with a Confederate flag graphic.
>
>   He pointed out that knocking over a statue will not "close the
> wealth gap," "give a kid whose parent's can't afford a college money to go
> to college," "close the labor gap between what white workers are paid and
> what black workers are paid" or "take people off welfare or food stamps."
>
>   Johnson said that whites who seek to "assuage guilt by doing things
> that make them feel good" would be much more reluctant to support payments
> for blacks.
>
>   Referring to actions such as "changing names, toppling statues,
> [and] firing professors because they said all lives matter," Johnson
> explained that "it just shows to me that white America is continually ...
> incapable of recognizing that black people have their own ideas and thought
> about what's in their best interests."
>
>   ...
>
>

BET founder Robert Johnson: "black people should be consulted before .. tearing down statues or firing someone for a comment they have made"

[Zig the N.g]

Woah muh n.gger, a little too much truth there bruh


   BET Founder Says "Black People Laugh At White People" Toppling Statues
 Alex Nitzberg via JustTheNews.com,
   
https://justthenews.com/nation/culture/bet-founder-robert-johnson-says-black-people-laugh-white-people-toppling-statues
   
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/bet-founder-says-black-people-laugh-white-people-toppling-statues

  BET founder Robert Johnson during a Wednesday interview with Fox News 
described people toppling statues as "borderline anarchists" and pushed back 
against the idea that black people support such behavior, suggesting instead 
that they "laugh" at those who knock down the statues.

  "You know black people, in my opinion, black people laugh at white 
people who do this, the same way we laugh at white people who say we got to 
take off the TV shows," he said mentioning the "Dukes of Hazard," a decades-old 
television program that has come under fire for featuring a car emblazoned with 
a Confederate flag graphic.

  He pointed out that knocking over a statue will not "close the wealth 
gap," "give a kid whose parent's can't afford a college money to go to 
college," "close the labor gap between what white workers are paid and what 
black workers are paid" or "take people off welfare or food stamps."

  Johnson said that whites who seek to "assuage guilt by doing things that 
make them feel good" would be much more reluctant to support payments for 
blacks.

  Referring to actions such as "changing names, toppling statues, [and] 
firing professors because they said all lives matter," Johnson explained that 
"it just shows to me that white America is continually ... incapable of 
recognizing that black people have their own ideas and thought about what's in 
their best interests."

  ...

Lifetime "lib/dems" going "gun nuts" - the surprisingly positive effects of USA chaos - [PEACE] [GUNS]

[Zenaan Harkness]

An interesting and apparently systemic change is underway in the USA, with a 
surprisingly positive effect of the Some Kind O' Crazy™©® going on around us 
all.

  "I have seen the emergence of a new class of students seeking training: 
anti-Second Amendment liberals," he said.



   Illinois Gun Permit Applications Soar 500% As Frightened Liberals Embrace 
2nd Amendment
   
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/illinois-gun-permit-applications-soar-500-frightened-liberals-embrace-2nd-amendment

  ..Over 40,000 Illinois residents applied for a gun permit over a two-week 
period this month, a jump of more than 500% over this time last year according 
to Illinois State Police.

  "Take a full glass of coronavirus, shake in a shot of riots and another 
of this defund police notion, and everything goes crazy," gun shop owner Mark 
Glavin told the Chicago Tribune. "Not to mention the backlog on background 
checks."

  The state's mandatory 72-hour background check has stretched to more than 
a week for some of Glavin's customers, putting Illinois residents in the same 
boat as Californians - who have a 10-day wait before they can take possession 
of recently bought firearms.

  ..Des Plaines gun store and range owner Dan Eldridge says that half of 
the customers scrambling to arm up are first-time buyers.

  "The numbers I saw from the National Shooting Sports Foundation … said 
40% of respondents to (store) surveys were new, first-time buyers. And of 
those, 40% are female — 40% of the 40%," said Eldridge. "We’re tracking 150% of 
a typical May in firearms sales ... and that’s with being open by appointment 
only."

  Eldridge also noted that sales of defensive ammunition, such as 
hollow-point bullets, were 10x as high.


  ..Liberals embracing the 2nd Amendment

A 38-year-old man from Dixon — who didn’t want his name used, 
citing employment reasons — described himself as “a very liberal Democrat” who 
for decades has been “for most forms of gun control politically.” But since 
March, he’s been waiting for his first gun permit to arrive so he can keep his 
family safe, he said.

“My views have recently changed, and I have accepted that the 
Second Amendment provides for the personal ownership and use of a firearm,” he 
said in an email. “The recent social unrest of a divisive president, the 
pandemic and dramatic rise in unemployment, and the more recent social unrest 
because of the way we police in this country have all been reasons that have 
prompted my recent application.” -Chicago Tribune

  ..Concealed Carry gun instructor and owner of Safer USA, David Lombardo, 
says he's had several callers recently who have disclosed their political 
beliefs while asking him for private one-on-one training because "they don't 
want anyone to know they're doing the training, let alone going to buy a 
firearm."

  "I have seen the emergence of a new class of students seeking training: 
anti-Second Amendment liberals," he said.

  ...

Re: Superseding indictment of Julian Assange as of 6/24/2020

[Zig the N.g]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 07:08:59PM -0300, Punk-Stasi 2.0 wrote:
> 
> > 
> > New Allegations Assert Assange Conspired With “Anonymous” Affiliated 
> > Hackers, 
> 
>   hilarious, considering that 'anonymous' is the CIA...


Rumour has it that amongst the NatSec "pro"s there is even one non-CIA 
anonymous "hacker" in existence ... somewhere..

Re: Superseding indictment of Julian Assange as of 6/24/2020

[Zenaan Harkness]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 03:53:01PM -0400, John Young wrote:
> Assange will be sacrificed and discarded by journalists once no longer useful.
> This is a long-standing practice to assure official protection and privilege.
> Assange once advocated this warning but was eventully coopted by journalists
> who joined his team and pushed the outreach to duplicitous journalism.
> 
> Braying about threat to journalism by Assange's prosecution is a deception op
> conducted in cooperation with authorities. Snowden's promoters have admitted
> consulting with USG on what to publish, what to redact, what to withhold.
> Barton Gellman describes his following this CYA standard procedure in Dark
> Mirror.
> 
> WikiLeaks burned sources with loose security, incoherent management, Julian's
> vanity and opportunism, thinking he could use cohorts for his purpose without
> penalty. The indictment outlines the parties he enlisted, quite a few likely
> to have decided to cooperate, like Sabu, the "Teenager," maybe Appelbaum,
> others pseudonymed.
> 
> Those he has manipulated will turn against him under pressure from prosecutors
> against them, their families and friends. Same happened to Manning, Swartz,
> kirakou, Hammond, long list of others.
> 
> Snowden will eventually be handed over to USG by those he came to trust the
> most. Trust wears thin over time and goosed by planted suspicions and doubts,
> ambition, need for income. And fans are notoriously fickle, don't give a shit
> after the excitement wanes, smears are spread, bots and media countermesures
> are unleashed, rewards are offered like Greenwald's "irresistables"
> undergirding The Intercept.
> 
> And there is always the AP option for terminating JA. Treachery of supporters
> is too.


Much true here.

True men of principle do not suffer greatly for vainglorious ends.  Though some 
may get caught up in the superficial, we should feel sorry for them on that 
count, whilst at the same time upholding principles worthy.

Manning may have procured her relief from her "double jeopardy" with a (temp) 
non-disclosure, yet she remains vigilant to a tee in not "being a dog and 
knifing Assange" for her own physical freedom - the loyalty of a champion, and 
for the right foundation of righteous principle, so a huge and gracious -thank 
you- to Manning!

Assange had things to learn on his journey it appears - are any of us exempt 
from such?  Let's not shoot the messenger.  Let's take a leaf from Manning's 
book of grace and loyalty - if we asked her, would she hesitate to say "punch 
up, not down" ?

Assange was part of a team, and as incoherent and flawed as it may have been, 
that team achieved massive wins - never forget that the results, from a broader 
perspective have shaken the foundations of empire, with its relentless revenge 
mission against Assange still in full swing to this day after so many years.

If as you say, Assange 'has manipulated' people on his Wikileaks journey, just 
how many more years would -you- keep him locked up in Maxi, how many more years 
from now (of Assange in jail), depriving his children of their father, do you 
personally say that Assange ought be kept in the slammer in order to mete out 
sufficient "justic" in your mind?

This is a serious and real question to you John (no matter that we are not the 
judiciary prosecuting him) - what be your position on the actual pennance 
Assange, as you imply, ought pay?

Yes there are always many options - perhaps we can help to spread the word of 
caution, of loyalty, remind folks that ultimate dignity is that in our own 
mirrored eyes, before our maker and with none between ...