Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Vincent Penquerc'h wrote: Tim - I don't think the cowboy (aka Shrubya) knows enough economics to realize that, in the long term, income and expenditure must be in some kind of rough balance. He's always been able to lean on daddy's money. I'm wondering whether the successive US administrations are not increasingly planning to live off the world, by way of their economic debt. Buy with monkey money, never reimburse. Effectively taxing the other economies for their expenses. Straightforward imperialism. US follows the British example, 2 centuries later. The PNACs even sound like Palmerston and Castlereagh. Though economies might be already too linked together for this to work fine, as damage to one part of the world's economy will reflect on others, including the US. Hmm, I think I'll do some googling now... Didn't work in the 19th century either. Empires and armies cost too much.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Vincent Penquerc'h wrote: Tim - I don't think the cowboy (aka Shrubya) knows enough economics to realize that, in the long term, income and expenditure must be in some kind of rough balance. He's always been able to lean on daddy's money. I'm wondering whether the successive US administrations are not increasingly planning to live off the world, by way of their economic debt. Buy with monkey money, never reimburse. Effectively taxing the other economies for their expenses. Straightforward imperialism. US follows the British example, 2 centuries later. The PNACs even sound like Palmerston and Castlereagh. Though economies might be already too linked together for this to work fine, as damage to one part of the world's economy will reflect on others, including the US. Hmm, I think I'll do some googling now... Didn't work in the 19th century either. Empires and armies cost too much.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 10:57:12PM -0500, Tim Meehan wrote: | an okay economy but too many yuppies and climbers (and crappy pot). | Montreal is the best, but you're better off if you speak Freedom -- | and like hash. The local pharma retail business seems to be quite flexible in supplying regulars with whatever they demand. The trouble with being anonymous is that you're indistinguishable from a cop. Adam -- It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. -Hume
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 10:57:12PM -0500, Tim Meehan wrote: | an okay economy but too many yuppies and climbers (and crappy pot). | Montreal is the best, but you're better off if you speak Freedom -- | and like hash. The local pharma retail business seems to be quite flexible in supplying regulars with whatever they demand. The trouble with being anonymous is that you're indistinguishable from a cop. Adam -- It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. -Hume
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Greetings traitors, :-). At 7:28 PM -0800 on 3/20/03, Tim May wrote: In fact, Turkey is shaking down the U.S. for $30 billion in grants and aid and loan guarantees. Nope. See Below. Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text Status: RO Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:32:42 -0500 To: Philodox Clips [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: U.S. Takes Back Turkey Aid Package Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I guess this pretty much says we're going to go to war quite soon. Cheers, RAH --- http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30108-2003Mar15?language=printer washingtonpost .com U.S. Takes Back Turkey Aid Package By JENNIFER LOVEN The Associated Press Saturday, March 15, 2003; 4:27 PM As U.S. hopes dwindled of going through Turkey for an attack on Iraq, the Bush administration took back its offer to give $15 billion in aid to Turkey in exchange for military cooperation, officials said Saturday. U.S. commanders have been eager to use the NATO ally to open a northern front in any invasion of Iraq. Staging in Turkey would allow more U.S. troops and heavier equipment to push toward Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. The two countries had negotiated a package of U.S. grants and loans aimed at boosting Turkey's ailing economy, which is expected to suffer even more if there is war. Earlier this month, Turkey's parliament - mindful of polls showing a vast majority of the public opposed war - rejected a government motion to authorize the deployment of 62,000 American troops on Turkish soil. Turkey has since delayed a final decision, and the new prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said Saturday a second vote was at least another week off. Now, the $15 billion is off the table, said two senior U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity. Nonetheless, Pentagon officials said Saturday there are no immediate plans to move any more U.S. military forces or equipment away from Turkey. Meanwhile, the White House's special envoy to the Iraqi opposition was in Ankara holding talks at the Turkish Foreign Ministry. Zalmay Khalilzad's primary mission during the Friday meeting was to persuade Turkey not to send its troops into northern Iraq, as the United States had agreed to allow as part of the negotiated aid package, one of the officials said. Khalilzad warned that such intervention would be a tragedy for U.S.-Turkish relations, another official said. Turkey already has thousands of troops in Kurdish areas of northern Iraq and has said it plans to send more in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. Turkey worries that the political aspirations of its own sizable Kurdish minority would be boosted if Iraqi Kurds win more independence. But the United States, which insists it wants Iraq's current territorial boundaries to remain intact, hopes to keep violence from flaring in the volatile region now controlled by two autonomous Kurdish factions. U.S. military commanders and White House officials repeatedly have said they have other plans that, although costlier and riskier, allow for operating in northern Iraq without sending troops in from Turkey. But Pentagon officials said about three dozen ships with equipment for the Army's 4th Infantry Division will remain for now off Turkey's coast, where they have been for weeks. Other troops and equipment are still surging into Kuwait and the 4th Infantry's troops are still at their home base of Fort Hood, Texas, the officials said. It was not decided whether the U.S. aircraft carriers Theodore Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman would stay in the eastern Mediterranean or follow the other ships in their battle groups, armed with Tomahawk cruise missiles, that already relocated to the Red Sea. Staying in the Mediterranean mean the carriers' planes might have to fly over Turkey to strike targets in northern Iraq. Turkey has not granted the United States the rights to fly warplanes or cruise missiles over Turkey to attack Iraq. The U.S. aid package was withdrawn because it was linked to a certain time frame, said one official. It was not clear if the package could be renegotiated if Turkey were to later approve a U.S. troop deployment. Meanwhile, U.S. forces continued upgrading some Turkish military bases, under a previous agreement that was meant to pave the way for American use of those bases. Workers continued unloading gear for that purpose at Turkish ports Saturday, but not the tanks, helicopters and other U.S. weaponry waiting in ships offshore. -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text -- - R.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Tim Meehan wrote: Vancouver is nice, but the economy sucks (except if you're growing). Toronto has an okay economy but too many yuppies and climbers (and crappy pot). Montreal is the best, but you're better off if you speak Freedom -- and like hash. Yeah, I can speak Freedom enough to ask for hash. but I like the mountains of Vancouver. I guess I better learn to grow! Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
RE: What shall we do with a bad government...
Tim - I don't think the cowboy (aka Shrubya) knows enough economics to realize that, in the long term, income and expenditure must be in some kind of rough balance. He's always been able to lean on daddy's money. I'm wondering whether the successive US administrations are not increasingly planning to live off the world, by way of their economic debt. Buy with monkey money, never reimburse. Effectively taxing the other economies for their expenses. Though economies might be already too linked together for this to work fine, as damage to one part of the world's economy will reflect on others, including the US. Hmm, I think I'll do some googling now... -- Vincent Penquerc'h
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thursday, March 20, 2003, at 03:23 PM, Bill Stewart wrote: At 01:50 PM 03/20/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: The other one we hear is You should be ashamed which brings a chorus of No, we're proud or Have you forgotten about Sept. 11th? We did have some older fellow stopped at the redlight ranting about us needing to go back to Russia, which was pretty amusing. Amazing how red in the face some of those people get. Then there's the old America: Love it or Leave it line, from folks who got really really upset when people _did_ leave it to avoid Selective Slavery during the Vietnam Police Action. Not only were people prosecuted for attempting to leave these beknighted states, but look into what happens if one tries to get his _money_ out. The American Empire now treats attempts to transfer money out exactly the same way the Soviets treated money transfers. In any case, the whole notion that unconstitutional measures are best dealt with be fleeing one's property is absurd. Those who violate the Constitution should be the ones fleeing, ahead of a firing squad. But most of the world is corrupt. The 40 nations in the Axis of Greed are not supported by their citizens, in nearly all cases (as our subscribers from Europe have noted). The leaders and politicians of these nations are being bribed by U.S. taxpayer money. Witness Turkey, which is a direct neighbor of Iraq and thus presumably has the most to fear if Iraq is in fact a threat. But not only is Turkey not _sending troops_, it is not even _paying_ the Hessians, er, the Americans. In fact, Turkey is shaking down the U.S. for $30 billion in grants and aid and loan guarantees. A big chunk of this is presumably going into private bank accounts, just as with the billions in tax transfers to Egypt and the Zionist Entity and Jordan. Shrubya doesn't care, as he just raises taxes. (Or he squawks and whines as Congress raises taxes, same difference.) $100 billion to rebuild and nation-build Iraq is $1000 per average taxpayer (or about zero for most of the basic brown types and about $10,000 for the upper 10% of taxpayers). Throw in $30 billion for Turkey, countless billions for the Zionist Entity, Jordan, Syria, etc., and the pricetag for this Splendid Little War is going to be back-breaking for our already-overtaxed economy. Shrubya sez: We gonna open a can of nucular whoop-ass on them bad boys! Illiteracy meets mendacity. --Tim May
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Tim Meehan wrote: Vancouver is nice, but the economy sucks (except if you're growing). Toronto has an okay economy but too many yuppies and climbers (and crappy pot). Montreal is the best, but you're better off if you speak Freedom -- and like hash. Yeah, I can speak Freedom enough to ask for hash. but I like the mountains of Vancouver. I guess I better learn to grow! Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:23:19PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: At 01:50 PM 03/20/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: The other one we hear is You should be ashamed which brings a chorus of No, we're proud or Have you forgotten about Sept. 11th? We did have some older fellow stopped at the redlight ranting about us needing to go back to Russia, which was pretty amusing. Amazing how red in the face some of those people get. Then there's the old America: Love it or Leave it line, from folks who got really really upset when people _did_ leave it to avoid Selective Slavery during the Vietnam Police Action. If you don't love it, leave it, let this song I'm a singin' be a warning. If you're running down my country, hoss, you're walking on the fightin' side of me. Ah yes, I remember it all too well. Funny thing, out there today we mostly just got a lot of people driving by shaking their heads. One guy rolled down his window and stuck his head out and opened his mouth but nothing came out. He even came by a second time, still couldn't get it out. Then we had a counter demonstrator who had a sign that said My Bush knows best and the dialogue with her was hilarious. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey!
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
At 7:28 PM -0800 3/20/03, Tim May wrote: Shrubya doesn't care, as he just raises taxes. (Or he squawks and whines as Congress raises taxes, same difference.) Tim - I don't think the cowboy (aka Shrubya) knows enough economics to realize that, in the long term, income and expenditure must be in some kind of rough balance. He's always been able to lean on daddy's money. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz | Due process for all| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | used to be the | 16345 Englewood Ave. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | American way. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Greetings traitors, :-). At 7:28 PM -0800 on 3/20/03, Tim May wrote: In fact, Turkey is shaking down the U.S. for $30 billion in grants and aid and loan guarantees. Nope. See Below. Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text Status: RO Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 23:32:42 -0500 To: Philodox Clips [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: R. A. Hettinga [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: U.S. Takes Back Turkey Aid Package Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I guess this pretty much says we're going to go to war quite soon. Cheers, RAH --- http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30108-2003Mar15?language=printer washingtonpost .com U.S. Takes Back Turkey Aid Package By JENNIFER LOVEN The Associated Press Saturday, March 15, 2003; 4:27 PM As U.S. hopes dwindled of going through Turkey for an attack on Iraq, the Bush administration took back its offer to give $15 billion in aid to Turkey in exchange for military cooperation, officials said Saturday. U.S. commanders have been eager to use the NATO ally to open a northern front in any invasion of Iraq. Staging in Turkey would allow more U.S. troops and heavier equipment to push toward Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. The two countries had negotiated a package of U.S. grants and loans aimed at boosting Turkey's ailing economy, which is expected to suffer even more if there is war. Earlier this month, Turkey's parliament - mindful of polls showing a vast majority of the public opposed war - rejected a government motion to authorize the deployment of 62,000 American troops on Turkish soil. Turkey has since delayed a final decision, and the new prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said Saturday a second vote was at least another week off. Now, the $15 billion is off the table, said two senior U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity. Nonetheless, Pentagon officials said Saturday there are no immediate plans to move any more U.S. military forces or equipment away from Turkey. Meanwhile, the White House's special envoy to the Iraqi opposition was in Ankara holding talks at the Turkish Foreign Ministry. Zalmay Khalilzad's primary mission during the Friday meeting was to persuade Turkey not to send its troops into northern Iraq, as the United States had agreed to allow as part of the negotiated aid package, one of the officials said. Khalilzad warned that such intervention would be a tragedy for U.S.-Turkish relations, another official said. Turkey already has thousands of troops in Kurdish areas of northern Iraq and has said it plans to send more in the event of a U.S.-led invasion. Turkey worries that the political aspirations of its own sizable Kurdish minority would be boosted if Iraqi Kurds win more independence. But the United States, which insists it wants Iraq's current territorial boundaries to remain intact, hopes to keep violence from flaring in the volatile region now controlled by two autonomous Kurdish factions. U.S. military commanders and White House officials repeatedly have said they have other plans that, although costlier and riskier, allow for operating in northern Iraq without sending troops in from Turkey. But Pentagon officials said about three dozen ships with equipment for the Army's 4th Infantry Division will remain for now off Turkey's coast, where they have been for weeks. Other troops and equipment are still surging into Kuwait and the 4th Infantry's troops are still at their home base of Fort Hood, Texas, the officials said. It was not decided whether the U.S. aircraft carriers Theodore Roosevelt and Harry S. Truman would stay in the eastern Mediterranean or follow the other ships in their battle groups, armed with Tomahawk cruise missiles, that already relocated to the Red Sea. Staying in the Mediterranean mean the carriers' planes might have to fly over Turkey to strike targets in northern Iraq. Turkey has not granted the United States the rights to fly warplanes or cruise missiles over Turkey to attack Iraq. The U.S. aid package was withdrawn because it was linked to a certain time frame, said one official. It was not clear if the package could be renegotiated if Turkey were to later approve a U.S. troop deployment. Meanwhile, U.S. forces continued upgrading some Turkish military bases, under a previous agreement that was meant to pave the way for American use of those bases. Workers continued unloading gear for that purpose at Turkish ports Saturday, but not the tanks, helicopters and other U.S. weaponry waiting in ships offshore. -- - R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/ 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA ... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --- end forwarded text -- - R.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Tim Meehan wrote: Bill Stewart said: Then there's the old America: Love it or Leave it line, from folks who got really really upset when people _did_ leave it to avoid Selective Slavery during the Vietnam Police Action. Some yahoo from Kansas has been flaming me with that one, too, after I responded to his incoherent rant about Michael Moore using WMD, or something. I haven't had the heart to tell him Canada hasn't been annexed (yet). My favorite reply from that era was Vietnam: love it or leave it! At least I lucked out. They ended the draft 2 months before my 18th birthday. My parents told me many years later that they were ready to ship me to Canada. Given how Vancouver is going now, that might have been a nice restful place :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
At 03:49 AM 3/20/03 +0100, Thomas Shaddack wrote: ... While over 70% of local citizens are against it (caveat: I am not closely familiar with the polling method, but no one of my local friends is supporting Shrubya's pet war). Your sample is probably seriously biased, though. My friends and family run about 98% antiwar, but several different polls seem to indicate over half the American people support it. There's no paradox there; my family and friends aren't a representative sample of the American people. This is like that famous quote about Nixon can't have won--nobody I know voted for him by some New York Times columnist. (That's from memory, so I'm probably missing some essential facts...but then, the NYT does that occasionally, too.) --John Kelsey, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What shall we do with a bad government...
Tim - I don't think the cowboy (aka Shrubya) knows enough economics to realize that, in the long term, income and expenditure must be in some kind of rough balance. He's always been able to lean on daddy's money. I'm wondering whether the successive US administrations are not increasingly planning to live off the world, by way of their economic debt. Buy with monkey money, never reimburse. Effectively taxing the other economies for their expenses. Though economies might be already too linked together for this to work fine, as damage to one part of the world's economy will reflect on others, including the US. Hmm, I think I'll do some googling now... -- Vincent Penquerc'h
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 05:41:08PM -0600, Anonymous wrote: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:42:16PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: What bullshit. You just suck right up to those war criminals don't you? Do you work for them too? On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:18:09AM -0600, Keith Ray wrote: argument elided Nicely argued, Mr. Seaver. I've never seen such a well-presented point-by-point response to a logical argument. I could care less about making a nice argument or point-by-point response to total bullshit. The concept that there is any shred of legality in this defies all rationality. The idea that the UN can't change course when it's members decide to, that one or two nations can take it upon themselves to attack another nation when the majority of other nations object is ludicrous. What the previous poster was saying was typical lawyerspeak legalmumbojumbo, i.e., bullshit. Your postings here are always the height of rationality. Keep up the fine work. Intuition beats rationality any day of the week. Rationality is typified by the grey flannel suit and the grey flannel mind. I prefer the Zen Lunatic school of thought. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey!
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
At 01:50 PM 03/20/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: The other one we hear is You should be ashamed which brings a chorus of No, we're proud or Have you forgotten about Sept. 11th? We did have some older fellow stopped at the redlight ranting about us needing to go back to Russia, which was pretty amusing. Amazing how red in the face some of those people get. Then there's the old America: Love it or Leave it line, from folks who got really really upset when people _did_ leave it to avoid Selective Slavery during the Vietnam Police Action.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Mike Rosing said: Given how Vancouver is going now, that might have been a nice restful place :-) Vancouver is nice, but the economy sucks (except if you're growing). Toronto has an okay economy but too many yuppies and climbers (and crappy pot). Montreal is the best, but you're better off if you speak Freedom -- and like hash. -Tim http://www.salvagingelectrons.com/degaulle
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:42:16PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: What bullshit. You just suck right up to those war criminals don't you? Do you work for them too? On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:18:09AM -0600, Keith Ray wrote: argument elided Nicely argued, Mr. Seaver. I've never seen such a well-presented point-by-point response to a logical argument. Your postings here are always the height of rationality. Keep up the fine work.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Quoting Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What bullshit. You just suck right up to those war criminals don't you? Do you work for them too? No, I just refuse to allow lies to go unchallenged by a bunch of bloodthirsty peaceniks who want to see US troops gassed, shot, blown-up, or nuked. The use of force in Iraq is legal. I believe that France, Russia, and Germany are not against this war on principle but due to their ill treatment by Bush's diplomatic style (or lack thereof). Their fear is not Iraqi regime change or civilian casualties but American hegemony. Immediately after September 11th, the world's leaders came together behind the US: I want to express to you my deep condolences and my unlimited solidarity to you and the American people. -- Schroeder In these terrible circumstances, all French people stand by the American people. We express our friendship and solidarity in this tragedy. -- Chirac The entire international community should unite in the struggle against terrorism... this is a blatant challenge to humanity. -- Putin Many of Europe's leading countries backed up their words by invoking the NATO Article V mutual defense clause. Schroeder felt so strongly about the need to aid Germany's friend and ally, he was willing to face a no confidence vote to send German troops to Afghanistan. As thanks for his support, Bush initially refused to accept NATO's help and then refused to share in any decision-making. In less than two months, Bush managed to make a diplomatic enemy out of an ally. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists -- Bush Ever since September 11th, Bush has gone out of his way to tell the world that the US is going to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants. At the same time that the US rejects European initiatives like the ICC, it expects Europe to blindly sign any resolution it brings to the UN. Even if a member of the Council were to agree with the US, how could it justify support to its people when the US constantly threatens and marginalizes it? Bush is a cowboy and its high time he was thrown from the horse. -- Keith Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- OpenPGP Key: 0x79269A12
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 05:41:08PM -0600, Anonymous wrote: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:42:16PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: What bullshit. You just suck right up to those war criminals don't you? Do you work for them too? On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:18:09AM -0600, Keith Ray wrote: argument elided Nicely argued, Mr. Seaver. I've never seen such a well-presented point-by-point response to a logical argument. I could care less about making a nice argument or point-by-point response to total bullshit. The concept that there is any shred of legality in this defies all rationality. The idea that the UN can't change course when it's members decide to, that one or two nations can take it upon themselves to attack another nation when the majority of other nations object is ludicrous. What the previous poster was saying was typical lawyerspeak legalmumbojumbo, i.e., bullshit. Your postings here are always the height of rationality. Keep up the fine work. Intuition beats rationality any day of the week. Rationality is typified by the grey flannel suit and the grey flannel mind. I prefer the Zen Lunatic school of thought. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey!
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:23:19PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: At 01:50 PM 03/20/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: The other one we hear is You should be ashamed which brings a chorus of No, we're proud or Have you forgotten about Sept. 11th? We did have some older fellow stopped at the redlight ranting about us needing to go back to Russia, which was pretty amusing. Amazing how red in the face some of those people get. Then there's the old America: Love it or Leave it line, from folks who got really really upset when people _did_ leave it to avoid Selective Slavery during the Vietnam Police Action. If you don't love it, leave it, let this song I'm a singin' be a warning. If you're running down my country, hoss, you're walking on the fightin' side of me. Ah yes, I remember it all too well. Funny thing, out there today we mostly just got a lot of people driving by shaking their heads. One guy rolled down his window and stuck his head out and opened his mouth but nothing came out. He even came by a second time, still couldn't get it out. Then we had a counter demonstrator who had a sign that said My Bush knows best and the dialogue with her was hilarious. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey!
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
What bullshit. You just suck right up to those war criminals don't you? Do you work for them too? On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:18:09AM -0600, Keith Ray wrote: Quoting Thomas Shaddack [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Interesting point of observation: According to our laws, approving of a crime is a crime (with some more accurate specifications but I am not a stinkin' lawyer). According to international law, the recent Shrubya's desert adventure is quite likely a crime. So our Wise Government, in its act of approval of a hostile aggression, according to their own rules, probably became a bunch of criminals. UK Attorney-General Lord Goldsmith Authority to use force against Iraq exists from the combined effect of Resolutions 678, 687 and 1441. All of these resolutions were adopted under Chapter VII of the UN Charter which allows the use of force for the express purpose of restoring international peace and security: 1. In Resolution 678 the Security Council authorised force against Iraq, to eject it from Kuwait and restore peace and security. 2. In Resolution 687, which set out the ceasefire conditions after Operation Desert Storm, the Security Council imposed continuing obligations on Iraq to eliminate its weapons of mass destruction in order to restore international peace and security in the area. Resolution 687 suspended but did not terminate the authority to use force under Resolution 678. 3. A material breach of Resolution 687 revives the authority to use force under Resolution 678. 4. In Resolution 1441 the Security Council determined that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of Resolution 687. 5. The Security Council in Resolution 1441 gave Iraq a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations and warned Iraq of the serious consequences. 6. The Security Council also decided in Resolution 1441 that, if Iraq failed at any time to comply with and co-operate fully in the implementation of Resolution 1441, that would constitute a further material breach. 7. It is plain that Iraq has failed so to comply and therefore Iraq was at the time of Resolution 1441 and continues to be in material breach. 8. Thus, the authority to use force under Resolution 678 has revived and so continues today. 9. All that 1441 requires is reporting to and discussion by the Security Council of Iraqs failures, but not an express further decision to authorise force. -- Keith Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- OpenPGP Key: 0x79269A12 -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com We are now in America's Darkest Hour. http://www.oshkoshbygosh.org hoka hey!
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
At 01:50 PM 03/20/2003 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: The other one we hear is You should be ashamed which brings a chorus of No, we're proud or Have you forgotten about Sept. 11th? We did have some older fellow stopped at the redlight ranting about us needing to go back to Russia, which was pretty amusing. Amazing how red in the face some of those people get. Then there's the old America: Love it or Leave it line, from folks who got really really upset when people _did_ leave it to avoid Selective Slavery during the Vietnam Police Action.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:42:16PM -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote: What bullshit. You just suck right up to those war criminals don't you? Do you work for them too? On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:18:09AM -0600, Keith Ray wrote: argument elided Nicely argued, Mr. Seaver. I've never seen such a well-presented point-by-point response to a logical argument. Your postings here are always the height of rationality. Keep up the fine work.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Bill Stewart said: Then there's the old America: Love it or Leave it line, from folks who got really really upset when people _did_ leave it to avoid Selective Slavery during the Vietnam Police Action. Some yahoo from Kansas has been flaming me with that one, too, after I responded to his incoherent rant about Michael Moore using WMD, or something. I haven't had the heart to tell him Canada hasn't been annexed (yet). -Tim http://www.salvagingelectrons.com/degaulle
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Quoting Thomas Shaddack [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Interesting point of observation: According to our laws, approving of a crime is a crime (with some more accurate specifications but I am not a stinkin' lawyer). According to international law, the recent Shrubya's desert adventure is quite likely a crime. So our Wise Government, in its act of approval of a hostile aggression, according to their own rules, probably became a bunch of criminals. UK Attorney-General Lord Goldsmith Authority to use force against Iraq exists from the combined effect of Resolutions 678, 687 and 1441. All of these resolutions were adopted under Chapter VII of the UN Charter which allows the use of force for the express purpose of restoring international peace and security: 1. In Resolution 678 the Security Council authorised force against Iraq, to eject it from Kuwait and restore peace and security. 2. In Resolution 687, which set out the ceasefire conditions after Operation Desert Storm, the Security Council imposed continuing obligations on Iraq to eliminate its weapons of mass destruction in order to restore international peace and security in the area. Resolution 687 suspended but did not terminate the authority to use force under Resolution 678. 3. A material breach of Resolution 687 revives the authority to use force under Resolution 678. 4. In Resolution 1441 the Security Council determined that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of Resolution 687. 5. The Security Council in Resolution 1441 gave Iraq a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations and warned Iraq of the serious consequences. 6. The Security Council also decided in Resolution 1441 that, if Iraq failed at any time to comply with and co-operate fully in the implementation of Resolution 1441, that would constitute a further material breach. 7. It is plain that Iraq has failed so to comply and therefore Iraq was at the time of Resolution 1441 and continues to be in material breach. 8. Thus, the authority to use force under Resolution 678 has revived and so continues today. 9. All that 1441 requires is reporting to and discussion by the Security Council of Iraqs failures, but not an express further decision to authorise force. -- Keith Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- OpenPGP Key: 0x79269A12
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
Quoting Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What bullshit. You just suck right up to those war criminals don't you? Do you work for them too? No, I just refuse to allow lies to go unchallenged by a bunch of bloodthirsty peaceniks who want to see US troops gassed, shot, blown-up, or nuked. The use of force in Iraq is legal. I believe that France, Russia, and Germany are not against this war on principle but due to their ill treatment by Bush's diplomatic style (or lack thereof). Their fear is not Iraqi regime change or civilian casualties but American hegemony. Immediately after September 11th, the world's leaders came together behind the US: I want to express to you my deep condolences and my unlimited solidarity to you and the American people. -- Schroeder In these terrible circumstances, all French people stand by the American people. We express our friendship and solidarity in this tragedy. -- Chirac The entire international community should unite in the struggle against terrorism... this is a blatant challenge to humanity. -- Putin Many of Europe's leading countries backed up their words by invoking the NATO Article V mutual defense clause. Schroeder felt so strongly about the need to aid Germany's friend and ally, he was willing to face a no confidence vote to send German troops to Afghanistan. As thanks for his support, Bush initially refused to accept NATO's help and then refused to share in any decision-making. In less than two months, Bush managed to make a diplomatic enemy out of an ally. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists -- Bush Ever since September 11th, Bush has gone out of his way to tell the world that the US is going to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants. At the same time that the US rejects European initiatives like the ICC, it expects Europe to blindly sign any resolution it brings to the UN. Even if a member of the Council were to agree with the US, how could it justify support to its people when the US constantly threatens and marginalizes it? Bush is a cowboy and its high time he was thrown from the horse. -- Keith Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- OpenPGP Key: 0x79269A12
What shall we do with a bad government...
...early in the morning? Watching news, I figured out that our Wise Government kowtowed towards the Holy City of WAshington DC, and pledged support for the Bush Aggression. While over 70% of local citizens are against it (caveat: I am not closely familiar with the polling method, but no one of my local friends is supporting Shrubya's pet war). Our national shield displays a lion with two tails. It's rumoured that it symbolizes the nature of our governments; that there actually were two lions, but one is now stuck deep in the ass of the other one. Sadly, a public uprising leading to dusting off the ancient tradition of defenestration (also known as throwing the officials out the windows) is rather unlikely here. But if this bad decision proves to be somehow relevant to our lives, we're at least likely to hear many new jokes during a mostly successful attempt to survive.[1] Interesting point of observation: According to our laws, approving of a crime is a crime (with some more accurate specifications but I am not a stinkin' lawyer). According to international law, the recent Shrubya's desert adventure is quite likely a crime. So our Wise Government, in its act of approval of a hostile aggression, according to their own rules, probably became a bunch of criminals. [1] The way that worked during the Austria rule, during the Nazi rule, during the Communist rule - think for yourself, say what They expect you to say and keep shut up otherwise, have friends to get access to exclusive goods and informations, read between the lines to extract the real information from the words of the official sources.
Re: What shall we do with a bad government...
On Wednesday, March 19, 2003, Thomas came up with this... TS Interesting point of observation: According to our laws, approving of a TS crime is a crime (with some more accurate specifications but I am not a TS stinkin' lawyer). According to international law, the recent Shrubya's TS desert adventure is quite likely a crime. So our Wise Government, in its TS act of approval of a hostile aggression, according to their own rules, TS probably became a bunch of criminals. ^^^ Doesn't that assume they were NOT criminals beforehand? Sorry to hear your evil government is supporting my evil government, although it's not surprising. Anyway, I can actually believe that ~64% of Americans support the invasion. On my school campus here on Staten Island, NYC, I'd say MORE than 64% of the students and teachers support the invasion. It's sad, because very few can even articulate why they believe we should invade Iraq. They just think it is necessary and just, because the Daily News says so and the Post says so and the President says so, and god damn it after Iraq we should invade France, and Iran and Saudi Arabia too, and then maybe Germany, and... It's very funny that the few of us who dissent are frequently called 'communists'. In my poli. sci. class they should know better, but they don't because they're fucking dumb. They think Hayek is cold, cruel and uncaring, they think Marx Lenin had good ideas, they believe in price caps and endless regulation, they believe in this invasion, and they call us 'communists'. People think violence on TV and in movies encourages violence in children and adolescents, but what it really encourages is armchair generals watching night-vision smart-bomb cameras annihilate dehumanized 'evil' targets, cheering on our 'boys'. It's the best reality TV there is, and people can't get enough of it. I hope there's massive US casualties. I hope they poison them. I have no sympathy, they volunteered. They either think it is just or they don't think, and for that they deserve whatever they fucking get. I have a couple of friends in the navy, too, and before they left they both said the same thing: Well, I don't know if it's right, but I love my country, and it's my duty to protect our freedom, blah blah blah... Loving your country doesn't mean going off to kill whoever they tell you to kill, anyone who follows that line of reasoning deserves a horrible painful death. The Shrubbery, in his grand speech the other night, said that any Iraqis who commit war crimes and are captured will be prosecuted as war criminals, and just following orders is not an excuse. What about our war crimes? What about our soldiers invading a sovereign nation, bombing cities teeming with innocents, our boys who are just following orders, shocking and awing a country devastated by a decade of sanctions, will they be prosecuted? Of course not, everybody knows Americans don't commit war crimes, how could one even suggest such a thing! Heresy! Treason! To the gallows with him! So when the next terrorist attack hits, maybe I'll be able to see that one outside of my window too. How lucky I am to live in NYC. How proud I am to be an American. Fuck our 'boys', fuck the president, and fuck this country full of spoon-fed sheep. They all deserve poison. -- stuart Anyone who tells you they want a utopia wants to put chains on the souls of your children. They want to deny history and strangle any unforeseen possibility. They should be resisted to the last breath. -Bruce Sterling-
