Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
On Tuesday 11 February 2003 09:52, Dr. mike wrote: No reason we can't start a movement to plege alegiance to the constitution The main body of the constitution does not apply to the individuals, it is the law the politicians and bureaucrats of the federal government are supposed to obey (and instead completely ignore). The fourteenth amendment prohibits the state governments from violately individual rights. What is needed is the death penalty or life imprisonment for politicians and bureaucrats who violate their oaths to uphold the constitution. The proper recipient of a pledge of allegiance is individual liberty. As Ben Franklin said, Where liberty dwells, there is my country. David Neilson This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. (also by Ben)
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, david wrote: The main body of the constitution does not apply to the individuals, it is the law the politicians and bureaucrats of the federal government are supposed to obey (and instead completely ignore). The fourteenth amendment prohibits the state governments from violately individual rights. What is needed is the death penalty or life imprisonment for politicians and bureaucrats who violate their oaths to uphold the constitution. The proper recipient of a pledge of allegiance is individual liberty. As Ben Franklin said, Where liberty dwells, there is my country. I'm not arguing with this, but I think pledging is just symbolic anyway. We need to act free so that we are free. It drives the control freaks nuts, and that's more fun anyway :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
RE: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
While I have a lot of problem with the Pledge in any form, I think it would be greatly improved if it were made to the Constitution, rather than the flag. But wouldn't that hint to these children that they may actually have to think ? You don't have to think of a flag, you just react with (preprepared) emotions, but with a constitution... I once went to the US, in a family, for a couple of weeks, and went to high school there. I didn't know about it then, and it really took me by surprise. The whole classroom standing up to the sound the loudspeaker, like some show of warmongering made for TV in some dictatorial country. Eerie. Best of all was, we were a group of french people one day, in the library, and this happened again. We looked at each other, and tacitly decided to continue our stuff, silently, without at all disrupting their ceremony. No more than two minutes after the end of it, we got the head of the library come to us, knowing we were french, and telling us we *had* to do it... That was *years* ago. You bet that after that, some people forget to think altogether and refer back to this thorough brainwashing they had when they were kids. -- Vincent Penquerc'h
RE: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Vincent Penquerc'h wrote: But wouldn't that hint to these children that they may actually have to think ? You don't have to think of a flag, you just react with (preprepared) emotions, but with a constitution... No reason we can't start a movement to plege alegiance to the constitution :-) Best of all was, we were a group of french people one day, in the library, and this happened again. We looked at each other, and tacitly decided to continue our stuff, silently, without at all disrupting their ceremony. No more than two minutes after the end of it, we got the head of the library come to us, knowing we were french, and telling us we *had* to do it... That was *years* ago. Some 40+ years ago we had to learn it in kindergarten. One kid refused and they took him out of class. I never saw him again. I think he had other problems (learning disability of some sort) but you can bet it scared the shit out of the rest of us. Ever since I've despised the plege ceremony. It really is brainwashing, and it only works on the robots :-) You bet that after that, some people forget to think altogether and refer back to this thorough brainwashing they had when they were kids. Unless it has an opposite effect, and you're scarred for life to watch out for brainwashing. It's interesting watching my local community deal with it, we made national news last year by *disallowing* the pledge (kids didn't have to say it). Whooboy, talk about a tempest in a teapot! Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003, Mike Rosing wrote: Some 40+ years ago we had to learn it in kindergarten. One kid refused and they took him out of class. His and the other kids parents were pussies. I first went to school about the same time ago, 1966 in Houston. I didn't do the pledge and they called my parents. The solution, I had to stand but didn't have to say anything. So that's what I did. Worked for 12 years of public school (of course after about the 4'th or 5'th grade I don't ever remember having to do it in school except perhaps at assembly or a sports event). Reminds me of the time in 5th grade when a teacher threatened to tie me in a chair. I told her my mother would 'beat her ass'. They called my mother, she asked the teacher and the principle if the threat had been made. They said yes. She said I was right, she would beat their asses. Pretty impressive from a women barely over 5ft. This was the same women in high school who told the principle he had better things to do with his time than bother me about not tucking my shirt in or having long hair. I wish I had a picture of the instructor in the only time I ever got detention (in HS) when they threatened me with more detention and expulsion for long hair. 'Ripping them a new asshole' only begins to describe. I did my three days and that was that. I've never put my hand on my heart or said the pledge, don't ever intend to either. I'll never sign an oath either. I've had people ask me about it, a simple 'Fuck you' resolved the problem quite nicely. -- We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. Criswell, Plan 9 from Outer Space [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ssz.com www.open-forge.org
RE: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
Bill Frantz[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
[...]
Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge
and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to
the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat
edited version (removed parts in brackets):
[...]
One interesting variation {and a suggestion of an alternative) comes from
naval diplomacy.
When there's an official US/UK naval dinner, toasts are drunk (at least on
shore or on British ships - I think US ships are dry). The Americans
always toast the British Monarch. The Brits in return propose a toast
to the US Constitution.
While I have a lot of problem with the Pledge in any form, I think it
would be greatly improved if it were made to the Constitution, rather
than the flag.
Peter Trei
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
And also freedom of religion. Forcing someone to say Under God for example. --Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ --*--:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote: At 12:22 AM 2/8/03 +0100, Thomas Shaddack wrote: But recite they must. Under a state law that takes effect today, almost every student in Pennsylvania - from preschool through high school, in schools public and private - must face the Stars and Stripes each school day and say the pledge or sing the national anthem. Are there any penalties for refusing to take part in this circus? If yes, isn't the contract - pledge - forced, and hence legally invalid? The 1st prohibits both State banning and the *compulsion* of speech, as this clearly is an example of.
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 10:57 AM, Bill Frantz wrote: At 6:55 AM -0800 2/9/03, Sunder wrote: And also freedom of religion. Forcing someone to say Under God for example. Back in the dark ages (the 1950s, and don't anyone get nostalgic for them), when the phrase under god was added to the pledge, I was a student in school. From what they had taught me, I knew then that this addition violated the establishment of religion clause. The solution I devised was to simply remain silent when this phrase was said. During the possibly more radical 60s, some of us uttered under Satan during this sequence. One of my friends got a trip to the Principal's office for this, where he explained that he believed in Satan and that God was just a pretender, and if the Principal could demonstrate that the U.S. officially recognizes one deity over another he would reconsider. Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat edited version (removed parts in brackets): I don't pledge to either a flag or a country. I just live here. And this is where the stuff I own is located. All I ask of government is that they stay out of my way. --Tim May
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
At 6:55 AM -0800 2/9/03, Sunder wrote: And also freedom of religion. Forcing someone to say Under God for example. Back in the dark ages (the 1950s, and don't anyone get nostalgic for them), when the phrase under god was added to the pledge, I was a student in school. From what they had taught me, I knew then that this addition violated the establishment of religion clause. The solution I devised was to simply remain silent when this phrase was said. Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat edited version (removed parts in brackets): I pledge allegiance to [the flag of] the United States of America [and to the republic for which it stands], one nation [under god], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Except for the fact that one should not trust pledges that are made under coercion, I am reasonably comfortable with this edited version. It expresses the ideal nation that I wish the United States would become. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz | Due process for all| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | used to be the Ameican | 16345 Englewood Ave. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | way. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
At 11:34 AM 2/9/2003 -0800, Tim May wrote: On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 10:57 AM, Bill Frantz wrote: Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat edited version (removed parts in brackets): I don't pledge to either a flag or a country. I just live here. And this is where the stuff I own is located. All I ask of government is that they stay out of my way. I think parents should teach their children that they should condition the recital of the pledge to when those elected to office are routinely held accountable to breaches of the oath of office. steve
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
Bill Frantz wrote... Except for the fact that one should not trust pledges that are made under coercion, I am reasonably comfortable with this edited version. It expresses the ideal nation that I wish the United States would become. Well, this is probably a lot better than nothing, particularly for a young person. But for someone older I would suggest that this is, to some extent, a dodge. Why? Because who is it you are pledging TO? The notion of the Pledge of Alleigiance as we know it is a public proclamation of one's affinities. And in this case, if no one in authority can make out that certain portions of the Pledge are not being stated, then I would argue that not stating them is almost as good as useless. It's kind of like a kid crossing his fingers behind his back while telling a promise, to negate the lie of the promise. -TD From: Bill Frantz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 10:57:14 -0800 At 6:55 AM -0800 2/9/03, Sunder wrote: And also freedom of religion. Forcing someone to say Under God for example. Back in the dark ages (the 1950s, and don't anyone get nostalgic for them), when the phrase under god was added to the pledge, I was a student in school. From what they had taught me, I knew then that this addition violated the establishment of religion clause. The solution I devised was to simply remain silent when this phrase was said. Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat edited version (removed parts in brackets): I pledge allegiance to [the flag of] the United States of America [and to the republic for which it stands], one nation [under god], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Except for the fact that one should not trust pledges that are made under coercion, I am reasonably comfortable with this edited version. It expresses the ideal nation that I wish the United States would become. Cheers - Bill - Bill Frantz | Due process for all| Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | used to be the Ameican | 16345 Englewood Ave. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | way. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
An interesting story on future citizen-units being brainscrubbed in the lovely state of Pennsylvania. http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/5124933.htm ... But recite they must. Under a state law that takes effect today, almost every student in Pennsylvania - from preschool through high school, in schools public and private - must face the Stars and Stripes each school day and say the pledge or sing the national anthem. It is one of the most stringent pledge laws in the United States, said Greta Durr, a researcher for the National Conference of State Legislatures, which tracks state lawmaking across the nation. From http://www.mclu.org/nottospeak.htm Minersville School District vs. Gobitis - 310 U.S. 586, 60 S. Ct. 1136 (1940). The Supreme Court upheld a Pennsylvania school district that expelled two Jehovah's Witness students for refusing to pledge allegiance to an idol; their religion also forbade them to do the Heil Hitler salute. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 63 S. Ct. 1178 (1943). The Supremes reversed themselves on a similar case, something they rarely do. The recent 9th Circuit court decision deleting under God from the mandatory idol-worshipping doesn't yet apply to Pennsylvania. Leaving aside the issues of forcing kids to recite something they don't understand or affirm something they don't believe, there's the little problem that if the teachers are going to pledge their allegiance to the Republic, they need to start following the First Amendment, and also throwing out the lawmakers who've violated their oaths to uphold the Constitution. And since they're not in the 9th District, so they've still got the under God part, the legislators are going to have to start cleaning up their act a lot on the God parts too, and I do *not* mean by forcing other people to believe things they don't...
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
At 12:22 AM 2/8/03 +0100, Thomas Shaddack wrote: But recite they must. Under a state law that takes effect today, almost every student in Pennsylvania - from preschool through high school, in schools public and private - must face the Stars and Stripes each school day and say the pledge or sing the national anthem. Are there any penalties for refusing to take part in this circus? If yes, isn't the contract - pledge - forced, and hence legally invalid? The 1st prohibits both State banning and the *compulsion* of speech, as this clearly is an example of.
Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
At 07:18 PM 2/7/2003 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: Leaving aside the issues of forcing kids to recite something they don't understand or affirm something they don't believe, there's the little problem that if the teachers are going to pledge their allegiance to the Republic, they need to start following the First Amendment, and also throwing out the lawmakers who've violated their oaths to uphold the Constitution. They also need to delete references to Republic. Since the Second American Revolution (i.e., Civil War) what we have is little more than a Republic in name only. Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard P. Feynman
Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
An interesting story on future citizen-units being brainscrubbed in the lovely state of Pennsylvania. http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/5124933.htm - Pledge law brings out opinions of all stripes By Dan Hardy Inquirer Staff Writer A roomful of Coatesville Head Start students, ages 3, 4 and 5, put their hands over their hearts Monday morning and did their best to recite the Pledge of Allegiance together for the first time. They struggled through phrases such as one nation under God, indivisible as they tried to stand still long enough to complete the pledge, a ritual usually played out in classrooms of older students. The youngsters could hardly grasp the meaning of the words they were reciting. We've got a long ways to go; this is just the start, their teacher, Karen Carter, said with a laugh. But recite they must. Under a state law that takes effect today, almost every student in Pennsylvania - from preschool through high school, in schools public and private - must face the Stars and Stripes each school day and say the pledge or sing the national anthem. It is one of the most stringent pledge laws in the United States, said Greta Durr, a researcher for the National Conference of State Legislatures, which tracks state lawmaking across the nation. ... -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law
