Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 11:32:24PM +, Steve Mynott wrote: (much snipped) It's just the same as some people claiming particular alcoholic drinks are better or worse than others. That's hardly a good analogy. The key thing about these drugs is the effects are intensively subjective and highly unpredictable. The dosage level is more likely to be related to adverse effects than the particular psychedelic drug used. In double blind tests, where neither the doctor nor the subject knows which drug is which, people can't distinguish major psychedelic drugs anyway. The only clear distinction is the duration of drug effect which does vary. This is usually denied by users of these drugs despite numerous studies supporting this since the late 1960s. I can't imagine how they could ever do any sort of serious test, let alone a double blind test -- the length of experience would be a dead giveaway. Besides which anyone with any real experience would easily recognize the essential flavor, if you will, of the particular psychedelic, and the quite different and distictive voice of the Other. Or lack, thereof, for instance in LSD. They are simply far too different -- on LSD, people are up, eyes open, grooving on sights and sounds, talking to people, but on strong doses of psilocybin and ayahuasca you'll most likely be snuggled under a warm quilt with your eyes shut in a dark room. And preferably alone. Totally different experiences -- the voice of the Other with psilocybin and ayahuasca are very, very different from each other as well. One might have some difficulty discerning a strong hit of Salvia vs. DMT, but you certainly wouldn't confuse them with anything else, just because of intensity and brevity. But even with those two, most experienced travelers would say the entities one encounters in that other dimension are quite different, indeed, that those dimensions themeselves are not the same. (snip) -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
By the time that people were mixing speed with it, actual dosages were much less (adding amphetamines to 250mic LSD is fairly pointless) and today most, from what I hear, are around 75-100 mic. In the early 80s I remembering getting some of the famous Goofy blotter, rated around 125 ugm. Microdots were around 35ugm. Hardly. Well, wandering around anywhere is not a good idea -- set and setting are extremely important. Well, wandering around in Soho NYC back when all the avante-garde galleries were there was quite a trip...some of these galleries were desgined already to be immersive, so that plus LSD really allowed one to leave one's normal psychological space and step into an alien one. This isn't exactly an obvious step on the path towards ego-destruction, but it does open one's mind up to ideas and modes of being that one's normal nature would have never truly encountered. Yup - increase their dose. Best thing that could happen to the world would be the development of a benign airforce that sprayed a fog of lsd/dmso on areas like Palestine. Real LSD, that is. Or better yet, psilocybin. 8-) Well, I'm not so sure. Surely you must be aware of the stories of Villages in Spain and wherever receiving a bad batch of ergot-infected bread, and then going collectively wacky, with suicides and whatnot. Some people really aren't in a place where they can handle losing control and seeing through all of their most cherished beliefs like wet tissue paper. Palestinians locked in a daily struggle with life and death might not take too well to being raptured all of a sudden. (BTW, ever read The Transmigration of Timothy Archer by PK Dick?) Obviously it wasn't LSD. I'm finding out this is apparently true with many drugs. Most heroin overdoses (as I have been informed by someone who ran a detox ward) are actually reactions to crap mixed in with the Herion (or once in a great while a dealer giving a hated customer an unexpectedly pure dose). The toxicity of Herion isn't very high, particularly for someone who's been building up a tolerance for a few years. (Crack's a different storyreally bad for the heart.) So the moral of this story is that illegalization of most drugs is what kills people! Perhaps we have underestimated the wisdom of the CIA! (Or are they the ones who initially put crap in the drugs they smuggle?) -TD _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
Except that there are so few of those no one has ever been able to quantify/qualify them, so we don't know what that really consists of. When you say those are you referring to bad acid trips? (Don't tell me you've never had one!) I'll grant, however, that bad trips seem to occur much more on 'cid than on natural substances. But I'll also point out that its on the bad trips where the Emporer's New Clothes are most obviously yanked away, and we SEE that all the stuff we thought held us together was more or less arbitrary or self-defeating. Unfortunately, some folks are so dependent on those illusions that they can not handle their removal, even for 4-8 hours or so, so they freak. -TD PS: It was along these lines that my comparison of a bad trip to 9/11 was meant. From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:11:43 -0600 On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 06:31:56PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: I'm not so sure this emperor could handle psycedelics. Might break the robotic connections Arguably, 9/11 was a bad trip, and now we're completely freaking out. Except that there are so few of those no one has ever been able to quantify/qualify them, so we don't know what that really consists of. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 02:34:54PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: Except that there are so few of those no one has ever been able to quantify/qualify them, so we don't know what that really consists of. When you say those are you referring to bad acid trips? (Don't tell me you've never had one!) As far as actual LSD goes -- none. And I did a couple hundred, anyway. Towards the end (and after it was suggested on the Senate floor that bad drugs be created and distributed on the streets to freak out LSD users), many things were sold as LSD which were not. I recall having some very strange experiences which caused me to decide to stop taking LSD. And very clearly remember someone locally who died in the emergency room after freaking out on the same batch of acid that seemed quite weird to us, they gave him thorazine and it killed him. Obviously it wasn't LSD. I then came into a large quantity of peyote -- shazaam, no more weirdness. Likewise mushrooms, ayahuasca, etc. And that is why, essentially, blotter acid came into being, because you can't get enough of anything else but LSD on that tiny piece of paper to do *anything*, so it's safe. I'll grant, however, that bad trips seem to occur much more on 'cid than on natural substances. Again, I never had a bad trip on LSD. But I'll also point out that its on the bad trips where the Emporer's New Clothes are most obviously yanked away, and we SEE that all the stuff we thought held us together was more or less arbitrary or self-defeating. Well, if you are talking about ego-loss -- that's not a bad trip, that's what is supposed to happen. Coming to some astounding realizations about the nature of the universe and our place in it is not bad, it's what seekers have spent years working towards -- all yours in a few hours. Unfortunately, some folks are so dependent on those illusions that they can not handle their removal, even for 4-8 hours or so, so they freak. Set and setting have more to do with it than anything. People who partake in powerful spiritual experiences, not just psychedelic substances, with no consideration of the consequences of what they do deserve what they get. Some people get very freaked out by a tarot reading. Most people sleep walk through life, many are completely entranced by the delusions of their preconceptions. Reality can be terrifying. Look at how many people are truly afraid of the dark, how many who fear spiders and other natural things. -TD PS: It was along these lines that my comparison of a bad trip to 9/11 was meant. From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:11:43 -0600 On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 06:31:56PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: I'm not so sure this emperor could handle psycedelics. Might break the robotic connections Arguably, 9/11 was a bad trip, and now we're completely freaking out. Except that there are so few of those no one has ever been able to quantify/qualify them, so we don't know what that really consists of. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
Harmon Seaver wrote... As far as actual LSD goes -- none. And I did a couple hundred, anyway. Towards the end (and after it was suggested on the Senate floor that bad drugs be created and distributed on the streets to freak out LSD users), many things were sold as LSD which were not. I recall having some very strange experiences which caused me to decide to stop taking LSD. That's interesting, actually. I remember getting some very high purity windowpane, and the effect was even calming. The bad trips seem to have been associated with acid-mixed-with-speed in general. But then again, taking 'cid and wandering the streets of New York City has to be a lot more bad-trip-inducing than taking it in more rural settings. (And, there are some personality types that I know really couldn't handle LSD. These are the ones that need constant control over their social surroundings.) And very clearly remember someone locally who died in the emergency room after freaking out on the same batch of acid that seemed quite weird to us, they gave him thorazine and it killed him. Obviously it wasn't LSD. Indeed there are tons of questionable anti-drug propaganda stories out there. Like claims that Ecstacy is dangerous, despite the fact the RIGHT NOW there's probably millions of kids around the world high on it, and probably none of them will die. (The danger almost certainly comes from the fact that petty mobsters and whatnot make it in their basement.) As for LSD driving people batty, I believe it, but then again those it drove batty I think already had the seeds of battiness down deep before hand...acid was basically just miracle grow on those seeds (and LSD-induced battiness requires a LOT of acid). Then again, a HighSchool buddy of mine took it about 300 times in HS and college and he remains as blase as always. -TD Stuy's High! _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 05:20:19PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: Harmon Seaver wrote... As far as actual LSD goes -- none. And I did a couple hundred, anyway. Towards the end (and after it was suggested on the Senate floor that bad drugs be created and distributed on the streets to freak out LSD users), many things were sold as LSD which were not. I recall having some very strange experiences which caused me to decide to stop taking LSD. That's interesting, actually. I remember getting some very high purity windowpane, and the effect was even calming. The bad trips seem to have been associated with acid-mixed-with-speed in general. Early on, LSD never came in anything less than 250 mics, and frequently higher. By the time that people were mixing speed with it, actual dosages were much less (adding amphetamines to 250mic LSD is fairly pointless) and today most, from what I hear, are around 75-100 mic. Major difference and really rather worthless, unless you take 4 or so tabs of blotter. If you don't take enough to break through, you might as well take speed. But then again, taking 'cid and wandering the streets of New York City has to be a lot more bad-trip-inducing than taking it in more rural settings. Hardly. Well, wandering around anywhere is not a good idea -- set and setting are extremely important. I well recall once, on some very clean and potent LSD, walking in the woods outside a friends house on the outskirts of Madison, and getting caught in a patch of blackberrys. I not only couldn't free myself, but the vines began to grow rapidly, wrapping around my legs and torso. I was vastly relieved when Ranger Dick showed up to lend a hand, and calmly unsnagged me from their lecherous grasp. But again -- wandering around the streets? Going into bars, etc. -- worst thing to do -- these are not party drugs. (And, there are some personality types that I know really couldn't handle LSD. These are the ones that need constant control over their social surroundings.) Yup - increase their dose. Best thing that could happen to the world would be the development of a benign airforce that sprayed a fog of lsd/dmso on areas like Palestine. Real LSD, that is. Or better yet, psilocybin. 8-) And very clearly remember someone locally who died in the emergency room after freaking out on the same batch of acid that seemed quite weird to us, they gave him thorazine and it killed him. Obviously it wasn't LSD. Indeed there are tons of questionable anti-drug propaganda stories out there. Well, you can check the Congressional record, this was not rumour, it was actually proposed in the Senate, can't remember by who, but I well recall thinking, when reading about it, what a stupid idea -- and then later being very aware that something was seriously wrong with what was hitting the streets. Especially when people started dying. Hint: LSD/thorazine doesn't kill you. If, indeed, it even slows down the trip. Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Tuesday, Feb 11, 2003, at 21:25 Europe/London, Harmon Seaver wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2003 at 02:34:54PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: Except that there are so few of those no one has ever been able to quantify/qualify them, so we don't know what that really consists of. When you say those are you referring to bad acid trips? (Don't tell me you've never had one!) [..] experiences which caused me to decide to stop taking LSD. And very clearly remember someone locally who died in the emergency room after freaking out on the same batch of acid that seemed quite weird to us, they gave him thorazine and it killed him. Obviously it wasn't LSD. LSD has virtually zero physical toxicity but it's possible someone could die as a result of being hysterical or choking due to psychological stress. Not that likely to happen but there are cases. It has been claimed that DOM (STP) reacts badly with thorazine but this is now not thought to be the case. It's far likely he died from the thorazine alone since it can cause cardiac arrest. I then came into a large quantity of peyote -- shazaam, no more weirdness. Likewise mushrooms, ayahuasca, etc. And that is why, essentially, blotter acid came into being, because you can't get enough of anything else but LSD on that tiny piece of paper to do *anything*, so it's safe. There have been documented seizures of DOB on blotter (particularly in Australia with its traditionally high street cost of LSD). DOB is a psychedelic which both closely resembles LSD in its effects and approaches LSD in potency (a few hundred micrograms). DOB, unlike most psychedelic drugs like LSD, can be physically toxic but at a massive overdose level (~100 milligrams) which probably wouldn't fit on a blotter. There are a lot more known drugs active at the LSD level in 2002 than 1967 but as a rough rule of thumb you are probably still basically right. The blotter is most likely to contain LSD (often as the freebase) or nothing at all. BTW blotter is unstable and likely to have a short shelf life. Microdots (containing salts) are likely to last for years. I'll grant, however, that bad trips seem to occur much more on 'cid than on natural substances. I think you are just generalising from your personal experience which may not hold for others. It's just the same as some people claiming particular alcoholic drinks are better or worse than others. The key thing about these drugs is the effects are intensively subjective and highly unpredictable. The dosage level is more likely to be related to adverse effects than the particular psychedelic drug used. In double blind tests, where neither the doctor nor the subject knows which drug is which, people can't distinguish major psychedelic drugs anyway. The only clear distinction is the duration of drug effect which does vary. This is usually denied by users of these drugs despite numerous studies supporting this since the late 1960s. Set and setting have more to do with it than anything. People who partake in Sure. Leary was right on that one. -- Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
My new favorite is how Rumsfeld just said that the Europe Delay to give the inspectors more time will INCREASE the chance of war Uh huh... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,78003,00.html My, my, how the reptiles have evolved the ability to speak out both sides of their mouth... or more aptly put out of another orifice better fitted to the application of toilet paper. --Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--- + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ --*--:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :their failures, we |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Declan McCullagh wrote: http://www.dailyrotten.com/source-docs/patriot2draft.html terrorism is at least as dangerous to the United States' national security as drug offenses
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Mon, 10 Feb 2003, Harmon Seaver wrote: Probably what they're most scared of are drugs that open the sheeple's minds. Psychedelics expose the nakedness of the emperor and break open the most rigid lockstep mentality. Yup, leading robots is so much more fun than actually doing something useful. At least for 9 year olds anyway :-) I'm not so sure this emperor could handle psycedelics. Might break the robotic connections :-) Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Sun, Feb 09, 2003 at 02:43:22PM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote: On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Declan McCullagh wrote: http://www.dailyrotten.com/source-docs/patriot2draft.html terrorism is at least as dangerous to the United States' national security as drug offenses That's a good find! People sitting around laughing their butts off is really a dangerous phenomena! Just like the killing of 3000 people! I want the drugs those guys have, there's no view of reality warped quite that bad I've ever seen on of my trips! Probably what they're most scared of are drugs that open the sheeple's minds. Psychedelics expose the nakedness of the emperor and break open the most rigid lockstep mentality. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 06:31:56PM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: I'm not so sure this emperor could handle psycedelics. Might break the robotic connections Arguably, 9/11 was a bad trip, and now we're completely freaking out. Except that there are so few of those no one has ever been able to quantify/qualify them, so we don't know what that really consists of. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
I'm not so sure this emperor could handle psycedelics. Might break the robotic connections Arguably, 9/11 was a bad trip, and now we're completely freaking out. -TD _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: My favorite line from the DOJ's latest draft bill
On Sun, 9 Feb 2003, Declan McCullagh wrote: http://www.dailyrotten.com/source-docs/patriot2draft.html terrorism is at least as dangerous to the United States' national security as drug offenses That's a good find! People sitting around laughing their butts off is really a dangerous phenomena! Just like the killing of 3000 people! I want the drugs those guys have, there's no view of reality warped quite that bad I've ever seen on of my trips! Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike
