Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo

2002-12-23 Thread Jim Choate

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Neil Johnson wrote:

> U, how about.
>
> 1. Big multi-national corporation buys off politicians to pass laws to protect
> their business model (DMCA anyone ?)
> 2. Gets meter maid to enforce said law.
> 3. See above.
>
> Ahhh, I see. Let's just get rid of the middle-man (government) and then the
> corps can take take of enforcement directly (pirate a song, get whacked).
>
> Much more efficient I would guess.

Congratulations, you're starting to understand the 'hidden agenda' of the
CACL [1] contengent.

[1] Crypto-Anarcy, Anarcho-Capitalist, Libertarian


 --


  We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
  are going to spend the rest of our lives.

  Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

  [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.ssz.com   www.open-forge.org






Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Neil Johnson
On Saturday 21 December 2002 08:45 am, Anonymous wrote:
>
> The high ranking for power concentration you implicity give to
> transnationals is undeserved and you are fearful of the wrong
> threat. The humblest meter maid can commence a process against
> you with consequences far greater than those that can be
> directed your way by the CEO of the most loathsome transnational
> company. That meter maid can write you a ticket. If unpaid, you
> will be fined. If unpaid again, your property will be seized. If
> you resist having your property seized, you will be beaten. If
> you resist being beaten, you will be shot until dead.
>
> Your most dreaded CEO can only dream for the power of a meter
> maid.
>
U, how about.

1. Big multi-national corporation buys off politicians to pass laws to protect 
their business model (DMCA anyone ?)
2. Gets meter maid to enforce said law.
3. See above.

Ahhh, I see. Let's just get rid of the middle-man (government) and then the 
corps can take take of enforcement directly (pirate a song, get whacked).

Much more efficient I would guess.

-- 
Neil Johnson
PGP key available on request.




Re: Bruce Schneier Hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Anonymous
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:07:34 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>
> Michael Cardenas wrote:
>
> (Begin Quote)
> I'm curious as to what makes you, or anyone on this list, think that these 
>technologies by themselves will cause any sort of political upheaval...What's to 
>say that these technologies are not going to be shaped to meet the needs and wants of 
>the transnational corporations that run our government?
> (End Quote)

The high ranking for power concentration you implicity give to 
transnationals is undeserved and you are fearful of the wrong 
threat. The humblest meter maid can commence a process against 
you with consequences far greater than those that can be 
directed your way by the CEO of the most loathsome transnational 
company. That meter maid can write you a ticket. If unpaid, you 
will be fined. If unpaid again, your property will be seized. If 
you resist having your property seized, you will be beaten. If 
you resist being beaten, you will be shot until dead.

Your most dreaded CEO can only dream for the power of a meter 
maid.

It's governments, stupid.




RE: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Mike Rosing
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Trei, Peter wrote:

> I think you meant the *Beretta* family, who
> have been making fine fireams since the 1520's.

Yup, my spelling sucks :-)

> Other really old companies:
>
> Stora Enso Oyj of Helsinki, Finland, a
> paper and board maker, began as a
> copper mine in central Sweden in 1288.
>
> Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo was founded
> as a book and medicine shop in Kyoto in
> the early 1600s by Masatomo Sumitomo.

Cool.  Nice to know it's a world wide trend :-)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




RE: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Trei, Peter
> Mike Rosing[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote
[...]
> The Berrata family is still around,
> mostly because they never decided 
> to be a _political_ power.  They
> have stayed as an economic one.
[...]

I think you meant the *Beretta* family, who 
have been making fine fireams since the 1520's.

Other really old companies:

Stora Enso Oyj of Helsinki, Finland, a
paper and board maker, began as a
copper mine in central Sweden in 1288. 

Sumitomo Corp. of Tokyo was founded
as a book and medicine shop in Kyoto in
the early 1600s by Masatomo Sumitomo.
 
Peter Trei




Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Mike Rosing
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote:

> Ahh... I meant massive military might.

Not a whole lot of difference usually :-)

mike




Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Michael Cardenas
Mike Rosing wrote:


On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote:
 

I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion
against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S.,
and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco
to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and
linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get
onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the
traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers
are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken
away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much.
   


It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into.
Nobody like the idea of getting shot at.  So as long as they don't
have to, they won't.
 

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"
-Mahatma Gandhi
   


So how we gonna change the world dude?
 


I'm not advocating armed rebellion. I'm saying that the current 
political structures in power have massive political might and are 
willing to use it to stay in power, as we are witnessing more everyday, 
and anything that challenges that might will eventually have to face it.

--
michael cardenas   | lead software engineer, lindows.com 
hyperpoem.net	   | GNU/Linux software developer
people.debian.org/~mbc | encrypted mail preferred

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"
-Mahatma Gandhi



Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Mike Rosing
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote:

> I think that Bruce Schneier's terse comment just illustrates the
> flippant attitude that lots of geeks have towards politics, and that
> lots of people have also. Just because geeks know a lot about
> technology, doesn't mean that they're impervious to the massive
> propaganda and mind control that goes on in democratic societies to keep
> the rabble out of the political process.

Group think isn't qute the same a mind control.  Nobody actually
"controls" the masses, but smart and dangerous folks know how to
ride them.  Sitting back and watching the mob can give you a clue
where not to stand

> I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion
> against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S.,
> and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco
> to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and
> linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get
> onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the
> traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers
> are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken
> away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much.

It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into.
Nobody like the idea of getting shot at.  So as long as they don't
have to, they won't.

> "Be the change you wish to see in the world"
> -Mahatma Gandhi

So how we gonna change the world dude?

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Michael Cardenas
Anonymous wrote:


Like I said before, P2P, Crypto, WiFi and cheap chips will turn everything upside down. 
 


I'm curious as to what makes you, or anyone on this list, think that 
these technologies by themselves will cause any sort of political 
upheaval. Lawrence Lessig has talked about how technologies, as long as 
they're created and controlled by people and corporations operating 
within the laws and boundaries of some country, can be regulated to 
express the will of governments. Your MAC address is already sent out in 
every packet that your machine generates, so with that, a "snoop" could 
tell a whole hell of a lot about what you're doing. What's to say that 
these technologies are not going to be shaped to meet the needs and 
wants of the transnational corporations that run our government?

I think that Bruce Schneier's terse comment just illustrates the 
flippant attitude that lots of geeks have towards politics, and that 
lots of people have also. Just because geeks know a lot about 
technology, doesn't mean that they're impervious to the massive 
propaganda and mind control that goes on in democratic societies to keep 
the rabble out of the political process.

I just have a hard time seeing the bridge between armed rebellion 
against the largest military power the world has ever known, the U.S., 
and some new networking technologies that are being designed for cisco 
to make more money. Even beautiful open source efforts like p2p and 
linux that actually express the will of the people are starting to get 
onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the 
traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers 
are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken 
away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much.

--
michael cardenas   | lead software engineer, lindows.com 
hyperpoem.net	   | GNU/Linux software developer
people.debian.org/~mbc | encrypted mail preferred

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"
-Mahatma Gandhi



Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Mike Rosing
On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Cardenas wrote:

> I'm not advocating armed rebellion. I'm saying that the current
> political structures in power have massive political might and are
> willing to use it to stay in power, as we are witnessing more everyday,
> and anything that challenges that might will eventually have to face it.

Nothing has changed in the past 10,000 years.  There are more
people now, more toys to play with and things happen faster.  I
don't see Nero as that much different than W, other than W's
mom isn't gonna get offed like Nero's was.  She's smarter than
her son is :-)

As the massive political powers become more corrupt, they make
more mistakes.  They don't have to think too hard any more
because they are massive political powers.  That's their weakness,
and it's a damn good thing too.  Getting them to destroy themselves
becomes easier - like the Medici.  The Berrata family is still around,
mostly because they never decided to be a _political_ power.  They
have stayed as an economic one.

Political structures have to die just like living ones for things
to change.  I think we'll see things change.  But I won't bet how :-)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike




Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Michael Cardenas
Michael Cardenas wrote:


I'm not advocating armed rebellion. I'm saying that the current 
political structures in power have massive political might and are 
willing to use it to stay in power, as we are witnessing more 
everyday, and anything that challenges that might will eventually have 
to face it.

Ahh... I meant massive military might.

--
michael cardenas   | lead software engineer, lindows.com 
hyperpoem.net	   | GNU/Linux software developer
people.debian.org/~mbc | encrypted mail preferred

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"
-Mahatma Gandhi



Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Major Variola (ret)
At 01:43 PM 12/20/02 -0800, Mike Rosing wrote:
> I
>don't see Nero as that much different than W, other than W's
>mom isn't gonna get offed like Nero's was.  She's smarter than
>her son is :-)

Not necessarily.  Nero's mom didn't have SS agents watching her and
PaBush for life.


--

"Intended only for lawful uses." -HP Computer Advert




Re: Bruce Schneier hullabaloo

2002-12-21 Thread Petro
On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 10:35:06AM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote:
> > onto the radar of U.S. legislators, who see the danger it poses to the
> > traditional power structures. Unless all those free software programmers
> > are prepared for armed rebellion when their right to share code is taken
> > away, I'm not sure its all going to mean much.
> It's an absolute last resort that nobody really wants to get into.
> Nobody like the idea of getting shot at.  So as long as they don't
> have to, they won't.

"Nobody"? There are plenty of people *waiting* for the justification
to start shooting.

-- 
"It is not the function of our government to keep the| Quit smoking:
citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the   | 242d, 9h ago
citizen to keep the government from falling into error." | petro@
-- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, | bounty.org