Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Marcel Popescu]

From: "Jim Choate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Freedom -is- Security.

Wake him up! Jim got one thing right, we can't have that. It ruins our
filtering.

Mark

Re: CDR: Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Jim Choate]

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Mike Rosing wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Adam Shostack wrote:
>
> > The Volkh conspiracy blog had this Learned Hand quote recently:
> >
> > "I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon
> > constitutions, upon laws and upon courts. These are false
> > hopes; believe me, these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the
> > hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,
> > no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies
> > there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it."
> >
> > The entirety is at
> > http://www.criminaljustice.org/public.nsf/\ENews/2002e67?opendocument.
>
> Yup, all the ink and all the paper doesn't mean squat.  Who points the
> guns where is what matters.

And how does that get decided? By ink and paper.


 --


  We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
  are going to spend the rest of our lives.

  Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

  [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.ssz.com   www.open-forge.org

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Jim Choate]

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Petro wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 03:18:09PM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:
> > > Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war, or
> > > other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the
> > > Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it to
> > > be suspended.
> > Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that counts.
>
> Then the consitution is meaningless babble.

Wnat meaningless babble? Look at the last half of Lincolns first address
as president.

Lincoln wasn't after saving the union, he was after saving a power base.

> Freedom, like security, is a process,

Freedom -is- Security.


 --


  We are all interested in the future for that is where you and I
  are going to spend the rest of our lives.

  Criswell, "Plan 9 from Outer Space"

  [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.ssz.com   www.open-forge.org

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Adam Shostack]

On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 03:17:21PM -0800, Petro wrote:
| On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 03:18:09PM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote:
| > On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:
| > > Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war, or
| > > other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the
| > > Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it to
| > > be suspended.
| > Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that counts.
| 
| Then the consitution is meaningless babble. 

The Volkh conspiracy blog had this Learned Hand quote recently:
 
"I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon 
constitutions, upon laws and upon courts. These are false 
hopes; believe me, these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the 
hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, 
no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies 
there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it."
 
The entirety is at
http://www.criminaljustice.org/public.nsf/\ENews/2002e67?opendocument.

Adam
 


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
   -Hume

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Mike Rosing]

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Adam Shostack wrote:

> The Volkh conspiracy blog had this Learned Hand quote recently:
>
> "I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon
> constitutions, upon laws and upon courts. These are false
> hopes; believe me, these are false hopes. Liberty lies in the
> hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,
> no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies
> there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it."
>
> The entirety is at
> http://www.criminaljustice.org/public.nsf/\ENews/2002e67?opendocument.

Yup, all the ink and all the paper doesn't mean squat.  Who points the
guns where is what matters.  I think there's enough people that still
believe liberty is the right way to go.  And after a whole bunch of others
get their doors kicked in, they might joint the crowd too.

Private comms is definitly important to freedom.  It's also useful to
tyrants.  Preventing the monopoly is our job :-)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Petro]

On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 03:18:09PM -0800, Mike Rosing wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:
> > Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war, or
> > other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the
> > Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it to
> > be suspended.
> Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that counts.

Then the consitution is meaningless babble. 

> > "Don't stand out, don't protest policy, don't write letters, don't meet
> > with hackers, and Washington won't interfere with your so-called
> > constitutional rights."
> > This is where we are.
> Almost, but not quite.  There's definitly a protest movement already -
> http://www.notinourname.net is a national one there are 2 in my city
> http://www.mindspring.com/~wnpj and www.madpeace.org.  There's plenty
> of people using words to change things.

The "Not in Our Name" people are only running off at the mouth
because it's a Republican in the white house. The didn't speak up
when the Sodomizer in Chief bombed a pharmacetuical plant, nor a
dozen or so other armed interventions during that period. 

No, those people aren't against "the" government taking away our
rights by force, they're just against *THIS* government taking away
our rights by force. 

> > The thermonuclear cleansing of Washington, D.C. cannot come soon
> > enough. Allah willing, by next Ramadan.
> 
> While I can't say I disagree, I think a more subtle approach may be more
> permenent.

There is no approach that can be permanent, other than sterilizing
the entire planet. 

Freedom, like security, is a process, a process you cannot stop or
you lose it, and when you lose it, it's a lot harder to get back. 

-- 
"They can attempt to outlaw weapons but they can't outlaw| Quit smoking:
the Platonic Ideal of a weapon and modern technology makes   | 240d, 13h ago
it absolutely trivial to convert a Platonic Ideal of a   | petro@
weapon into an actual weapon whenever one desires."  | bounty.org

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Mike Rosing]

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Major Variola (ret) wrote:

> At 03:49 PM 12/14/02 -0800, Tim May wrote:
> >PLONK.
>
> Hey, maybe Mike was talking about Mr. Booth, not Mr. Lincoln.

:-)

Tim has given me some motivation to work on an old idea.  We'll see if I
get any time in the next year to make it happen.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Major Variola (ret)]

At 03:49 PM 12/14/02 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>On Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 03:18  PM, Mike Rosing wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:
>>
>>> Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war,
or
>>> other emergency conditions, was disgraceful.

>> Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that
counts.
>
>PLONK.

Hey, maybe Mike was talking about Mr. Booth, not Mr. Lincoln.

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Steve Furlong]

On Saturday 14 December 2002 18:18, Mike Rosing wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:
> > Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war,
> > or other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the
> > Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it
> > to be suspended.
>
> Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that
> counts.

Well, until April 14, 1865, anyway. Sic semper tyrannis.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel

You don't expect governments to obey the law because of some higher
moral development. You expect them to obey the law because they know
that if they don't, those who aren't shot will be hanged.
--Michael Shirley

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Steve Schear]

At 07:45 PM 12/14/2002 -0500, Steve Furlong wrote:

On Saturday 14 December 2002 18:18, Mike Rosing wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:
> > Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war,
> > or other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the
> > Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it
> > to be suspended.
>
> Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that
> counts.

Well, until April 14, 1865, anyway. Sic semper tyrannis.


If not for the foolish chivalry of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, 
in not following up their rout of the Union Army at the war's first big 
battle of Bull Run (called First Manassas in The South) just outside 
Washington, the war might have ended right then, 500,000 lives saved 
(including Lincoln's) and the possibility of peaceful emancipation made 
likely. Most importantly, we would still be a republic in fact and not 
simply in name.

From my review of the movie "Glory":
"If not for the foolish chivalry of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, 
in not following up their rout of the Union Army at the war's first big 
battle of Bull Run (called First Manassas in The South) just outside 
Washington, the war might have ended right then, 500,000 lives saved 
(including Lincoln's) and the possibility of peaceful emancipation made 
likely. Most importantly, we would still be a republic in fact and not 
simply in name."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B51YMQ/customer-reviews/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-1044140-8452014

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Tim May]

On Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 03:18  PM, Mike Rosing wrote:


On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:


Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war, or
other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the
Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it to
be suspended.


Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that counts.


PLONK.


--Tim May

Suspending the Constitution

[Tim May]

On Saturday, December 14, 2002, at 10:09  AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:


On Thu, Dec 12, 2002 at 10:47:25AM -0800, Tim May wrote:

Secret trials are on the rise. Inasmuch as the U.S. is now throwing 
its
full weight behind secret evidence, secret prosecutions, secret 
trials,
secret appeals courts, suspension of habeas corpus, detention of Evil
Ones without charge at concentration camps in Cuba, suspension of the
Fourth and Fifth and Sixth Amendments, and elevation to guilt by

I spoke recently with a former DOD lawyer now at a TLA. That lawyer
says that the current thinking is that if there is a "cyberattack"
from another nation, we are at a state of war and the Fourth Amendment
and other prohibitions on government interference with personal 
property
and liberty do not apply.*

-Declan

* Yes, you could argue that after the War On Some Politically
Unpopular Drugs, the USA Patriot Act's expansion of eavesdropping
without a court order, the Dept of Homeland Security bill doing the
same thing, the recent FISA appeals court decision, and so on, the 4A
has already been eviscerated. But I'd say there's still a small amount
of life in it for now.

Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war, or 
other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the 
Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it to 
be suspended.

The fact that the courts have been unwilling to review (and reject) the

I don't believe Declan's claim that the 4A is still alive. If people 
are not confident that their papers and possessions are secure against 
the dozens of examples of how they are not, then the papers and 
possessions are in fact NOT secure. The fact that government doesn't 
bother with 97% of the white suburban population and 85% of the negro 
and Hispanic urban populations is irrelevant...China doesn't bother 
with most of its people, nor even did Stalin's U.S.S.R.

"Don't stand out, don't protest policy, don't write letters, don't meet 
with hackers, and Washington won't interfere with your so-called 
constitutional rights."

This is where we are.

The thermonuclear cleansing of Washington, D.C. cannot come soon 
enough. Allah willing, by next Ramadan.

--Tim May

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Steve Schear]

Correction 

 From my review "Great cinema, poor history," of the movie "Glory":
"If not for the foolish chivalry of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, 
in not following up their rout of the Union Army at the war's first big 
battle of Bull Run (called First Manassas in The South) just outside 
Washington, the war might have ended right then, 500,000 lives saved 
(including Lincoln's) and the possibility of peaceful emancipation made 
likely. Most importantly, we would still be a republic in fact and not 
simply in name."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B51YMQ/customer-reviews/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-1044140-8452014

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[Mike Rosing]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Tim May wrote:

> Lincoln's notion that the Constitution is suspendable during a war, or
> other emergency conditions, was disgraceful. Nothing in the
> Constitution says that it is suspended when a President declares it to
> be suspended.

Power is what power does.  He got away with it, that's all that counts.

> I don't believe Declan's claim that the 4A is still alive. If people
> are not confident that their papers and possessions are secure against
> the dozens of examples of how they are not, then the papers and
> possessions are in fact NOT secure. The fact that government doesn't
> bother with 97% of the white suburban population and 85% of the negro
> and Hispanic urban populations is irrelevant...China doesn't bother
> with most of its people, nor even did Stalin's U.S.S.R.

That's because most of the poplulations of China and the USSR are
still only accessable by donkey or helicoptor.  Those populations
don't have much to offer the people in power either.

The blacks in the us claim that some 25% of all males are in some form
of state observation - either jail or probation.  The blacks just think
the democrats will save them...

> "Don't stand out, don't protest policy, don't write letters, don't meet
> with hackers, and Washington won't interfere with your so-called
> constitutional rights."
>
> This is where we are.

Almost, but not quite.  There's definitly a protest movement already -
http://www.notinourname.net is a national one there are 2 in my city
http://www.mindspring.com/~wnpj and www.madpeace.org.  There's plenty
of people using words to change things.

> The thermonuclear cleansing of Washington, D.C. cannot come soon
> enough. Allah willing, by next Ramadan.

While I can't say I disagree, I think a more subtle approach may be more
permenent.

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

Re: Suspending the Constitution

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 7:45 PM -0500 on 12/14/02, Steve Furlong wrote:


> Sic semper tyrannis.

I prefer Lex vincula justitiae, myself...

Cheers,
RAH



-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"The real object of all despotism is revenue." --Thomas Paine