Re: [darktable-user] Selecting the outside

[KOVÁCS István]

On 15 Jan 2018 5:43 am,  wrote:

DT 2.4

* I have selected the blend drawing-parameteric mask.
* Select my ellipse

How do I apply the module to the outside of the ellipse, ie the rest
of the image?


https://www.darktable.org/usermanual/en/drawn_mask.html

Look for 'polarity'.

Kofa


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[darktable-user] Selecting the outside

[darktable]

DT 2.4

* I have selected the blend drawing-parameteric mask.
* Select my ellipse

How do I apply the module to the outside of the ellipse, ie the rest
of the image?

-- 
sknahT

vyS

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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[Benjamin Daines]

It's also worth nothing that Windows users (especially) and Mac users 
are conditioned to view their computer and it's application as a 
product that they are the end user of.  It's not their fault, that's 
how they were turned into customers in the first place.  In the GNU / 
Linux world it's very different. We have that community aspect that the 
afore mentioned platforms largely lack.


It's the communal ownership of code that sets Linux apart and attracts 
users who are willing, even excited, to contribute rather than 
"consume."


All in all, the delay of Darktable 2.4.0 for Mac provides a great 
opportunity to consider switching to The Freedom OS™


On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 4:03 PM, Romano Giannetti 
 wrote:

On 14/01/18 17:02, Pascal Obry wrote:

Benjamin,

That's not the point. Take GIMP (it has been discussed recently) 
there

is more users on Windows and almost no contributor for this platform
and so the port is hard to maintain.

Soon this will also be true for dt, a lot of Windows users are moving
to dt. Fine. But among them some are certainly computer scientist,
right? What are they doing? Nothing.



Pascal, without having any global data, I suspect that the sheer 
difference of number of users makes this statement... difficult. In 
my sample at my University, the percentage of windows user able to 
compile a program (or that even know what that mean) is really lower 
than the one in the Linux users. To the point that being us Linux 
users around the 2%, we are the 50% of people compiling software and 
doing bug hunting and reporting (more or less). Mac is more or less 
midway... and we are an Engineering School.


Notice that this is not a negative comment on windows users --- 
they're using what's more useful for them. So while I see why a Linux 
user can try to (like myself) at least contribute in what he can, the 
union of the set of windows users --- advanced hobbyst photographers 
--- computer "geeks" will be smaller than the one you can find if you 
change "windows" to "linux". And on the other hand, the number of 
users is so much higher that the group that join the first two groups 
here will easily overwhelm, in number, the full set of linux users.


Romano

--
Romano Giannetti
http://www.rgtti.com/


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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[Romano Giannetti]

On 14/01/18 17:02, Pascal Obry wrote:

Benjamin,

That's not the point. Take GIMP (it has been discussed recently) there
is more users on Windows and almost no contributor for this platform
and so the port is hard to maintain.

Soon this will also be true for dt, a lot of Windows users are moving
to dt. Fine. But among them some are certainly computer scientist,
right? What are they doing? Nothing.



Pascal, without having any global data, I suspect that the sheer 
difference of number of users makes this statement... difficult. In my 
sample at my University, the percentage of windows user able to compile 
a program (or that even know what that mean) is really lower than the 
one in the Linux users. To the point that being us Linux users around 
the 2%, we are the 50% of people compiling software and doing bug 
hunting and reporting (more or less). Mac is more or less midway... and 
we are an Engineering School.


Notice that this is not a negative comment on windows users --- they're 
using what's more useful for them. So while I see why a Linux user can 
try to (like myself) at least contribute in what he can, the union of 
the set of windows users --- advanced hobbyst photographers --- computer 
"geeks" will be smaller than the one you can find if you change 
"windows" to "linux". And on the other hand, the number of users is so 
much higher that the group that join the first two groups here will 
easily overwhelm, in number, the full set of linux users.


Romano

--
Romano Giannetti
http://www.rgtti.com/


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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[J Albrecht]

> On 14 Jan 2018, at 14:18, Robert Krawitz  wrote:
> 
> Speaking from experience, I strongly suggest signing the package.
> Current users may be OK with the workaround, but growing the userbase
> will require pulling in new users who don't want to turn off the
> signing requirement (which is there for a reason, and even if it
> weren't, is something Apple strongly discourages and Mac users tend to
> listen to Apple).

This is probably true for the same sheeple who swear by Lightroom and 
Photoshop. However, for enlightened Mac users of dt and say, GIMP, I don’t 
think that it’s an issue. As has been shown, they accept the unsigned DMGs 
because they understand that darktable isn’t a commercial product. If the 
members of the former group complain, so be it. They can complain along with 
those who lament that GIMP isn’t a functional replica of PS. Meanwhile, the 
rest of us can continue to benefit from the use of these great programs. 
I’d hate for the devs to halt packaging for MAC just because having to sign the 
packages gets in the way. 



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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[Robert Krawitz]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:03:22 -0500, J Albrecht wrote:
>> On 14 Jan 2018, at 12:01, Pascal Obry  wrote:
>> 
>> Right, probably closer to Linux than Windows is. But yet, we have a
>> single MacOS guy for the maintenance and he is not available actually
>> to do the work. That illustrate my point :)
>
> The point is not so pointy. There have actually been a number of people who 
> have offered to help in this regard. Yet, the offers were either rejected or 
> ignored. It seems that this is a 'closed club'. 
>
> Once again: I'd be quite happy to help package for MAC OS - even as Parafin's 
> third-rate 'apprentice' to assist in getting these things out when he's not 
> available. I've already successfully compiled 2.4.0 on my Mac box. I've just 
> not been able to produce a functional Disk Image. I need assistance in that 
> regard. Unlike Robert Krawitz suggests, I don't feel that it's necessary to 
> 'sign' the DMGs; the packages have been provided unsigned for as long as 
> they've been available. Nobody expects them to be signed now! Furthermore, no 
> current user expects them to be available on Apple's bespoke store. People 
> would just like them to be available on the dt site ;-)

Speaking from experience, I strongly suggest signing the package.
Current users may be OK with the workaround, but growing the userbase
will require pulling in new users who don't want to turn off the
signing requirement (which is there for a reason, and even if it
weren't, is something Apple strongly discourages and Mac users tend to
listen to Apple).

When the signing requirement first came out (10.10, IIRC), we were
deluged with compaints from users that Gutenprint wouldn't install on
their Macs.  If you go this route, be prepared for complaints -- loud,
vociferous ones.  And since Darktable has been getting publicity as a
solution on Windows, you can expect more Macintosh users (not just
curent ones) to want to get in on the act.  The "workaround" of
turning off package signing won't fly with them, and it will suggest
that it's bundled with malware.  And it will also make it more
difficult for you if third parties pick up Darktable, bundle it with
ad/mal/junkware and distribute it themselves, since your instructions
to turn off signature verification will make it easier for these
operators.

The issue of the Store is something there's no workaround for (other
than relicensing, which I doubt will fly with the project team and
would not have passed muster with Gutenprint even if we had wanted to
distribute it that way).  There's plenty of reputable software not
distributed through the Store, so I don't think that will be a problem
for you.

But I very strongly suggest, based on our experience with Gutenprint,
that you get a certificate and sign the package.
-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton

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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[J Albrecht]

> On 14 Jan 2018, at 12:01, Pascal Obry  wrote:
> 
> Right, probably closer to Linux than Windows is. But yet, we have a
> single MacOS guy for the maintenance and he is not available actually
> to do the work. That illustrate my point :)

The point is not so pointy. There have actually been a number of people who 
have offered to help in this regard. Yet, the offers were either rejected or 
ignored. It seems that this is a “closed club”. 

Once again: I’d be quite happy to help package for MAC OS - even as Parafin’s 
third-rate “apprentice” to assist in getting these things out when he’s not 
available. I’ve already successfully compiled 2.4.0 on my Mac box. I’ve just 
not been able to produce a functional Disk Image. I need assistance in that 
regard. Unlike Robert Krawitz suggests, I don’t feel that it’s necessary to 
“sign” the DMGs; the packages have been provided unsigned for as long as 
they’ve been available. Nobody expects them to be signed now! Furthermore, no 
current user expects them to be available on Apple’s bespoke store. People 
would just like them to be available on the dt site ;-)



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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[Robert Krawitz]

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 18:01:39 +0100, Pascal Obry wrote:
>> Despite of that what are the competencies needed to compile for mac?
>> It is not quite clear to me how technical you have to be to
>> contribute.
>
> Can't tell, I'm not a MacOS user. That's certainly not trivial. But
> maybe you have photograph and computer scientist people around you,
> talk about darktable and the need for the implication to make things
> moving. There is lot of way to contribute.

Porting the code is not likely to be the major problem if it's not
trying to be clever about taking advantage of the latest and greatest.
Packaging is the issue (speaking as the Gutenprint project lead).

The main issue is how packaging is done on Linux vs. MacOS.  On Linux,
packaging is seen as the responsibility of the distribution, while on
MacOS (and any Apple OS) it's the responsibility of the project to
package its own releases.  So despite the greater diversity of
packaging systems on Linux and traditional UNIX (RPM, Debian, ipkg on
Solaris, and such), this is actually less of a concern for projects
than on MacOS.

Also, Linux users are often willing to build packages themselves if
their distribution isn't fast enough off the mark.

The expectations on MacOS are entirely different.  End users expect a
fully packaged installer, which requires expertise with the MacOS
tools for that purpose.  The package also needs to be signed if you
don't want your users to go through the hassle of turning off the
signature check (which is seen as a security hole) for installation
and turning it back on afterwards.  This requirement has been around
for a while; any project that doesn't sign its packages will be seen
as fly by night if not worse.  So, you have to get a key from Apple.
And then you need to check for any prerequisites, and preferably
include them yourself (MacOS doesn't have package metatools like dnf
that will take care of pulling in required dependencies).

And if your package is licensed under the GPL, you can't even use the
Apple Store; you have to do your own installer and provide the hosting
for distribution.

In addition to these process requirements you need to make sure that
your installer runs cleanly and that the uninstaller likewise
uninstalls cleanly.  Again, on Linux that's the responsibility of the
distribution, not the project (other than not being too profligate
with what it sticks in the filesystem).

So yes, project lifecycle management on MacOS requires a very
different set of skills from that on Linux.
-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton

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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[Pascal Obry]

Laurent,

> I also thought that macOS was closer to linux than Windows so easier
> to port. I might be wrong.

Right, probably closer to Linux than Windows is. But yet, we have a
single MacOS guy for the maintenance and he is not available actually
to do the work. That illustrate my point :)

> Despite of that what are the competencies needed to compile for mac?
> It is not quite clear to me how technical you have to be to
> contribute.

Can't tell, I'm not a MacOS user. That's certainly not trivial. But
maybe you have photograph and computer scientist people around you,
talk about darktable and the need for the implication to make things
moving. There is lot of way to contribute.

Regards,

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B

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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[laurent wawrzyniak]

Hello,

I understand your point of view concering contribution and I'm sorry if I
sounded rude.


I just think it is weird that Windows users benefit of the new version
before mac users that are faithful to Darktable for many years.

I also thought that macOS was closer to linux than Windows so easier to
port. I might be wrong.


Despite of that what are the competencies needed to compile for mac? It is
not quite clear to me how technical you have to be to contribute.


regards,
Laurent

2018-01-14 17:02 GMT+01:00 Pascal Obry :

> Benjamin,
>
> > If I may interject,
>
> Sure!
>
> >  there's no reason to be upset at users who do not
> > contribute.  Not everyone is able to, and that's fine.  What's the
> > point of a software project without users?
>
> That's not the point. Take GIMP (it has been discussed recently) there
> is more users on Windows and almost no contributor for this platform
> and so the port is hard to maintain.
>
> Soon this will also be true for dt, a lot of Windows users are moving
> to dt. Fine. But among them some are certainly computer scientist,
> right? What are they doing? Nothing.
>
> Many users on Linux are not computer scientist, just fine. But at least
> a part of the computer scientist using Linux are contributing.
>
> That's the point, the OP is maybe not computer scientist, but in this
> case the message is not welcomed ("I'm waiting").
>
> So my message was just to remind Windows users that nothing come from
> free, there is hard work and the Windows community must create a group
> for the maintenance.
>
> The risk is that the MacOS or Windows port will be discontinued. We
> need more dev for those platforms, that's the reality.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>   Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)
>
>   The best way to travel is by means of imagination
>
>   http://www.obry.net
>
>   gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
>


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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[Pascal Obry]

Benjamin,

> If I may interject,

Sure!

>  there's no reason to be upset at users who do not 
> contribute.  Not everyone is able to, and that's fine.  What's the 
> point of a software project without users?

That's not the point. Take GIMP (it has been discussed recently) there
is more users on Windows and almost no contributor for this platform
and so the port is hard to maintain.

Soon this will also be true for dt, a lot of Windows users are moving
to dt. Fine. But among them some are certainly computer scientist,
right? What are they doing? Nothing.

Many users on Linux are not computer scientist, just fine. But at least
a part of the computer scientist using Linux are contributing.

That's the point, the OP is maybe not computer scientist, but in this
case the message is not welcomed ("I'm waiting").

So my message was just to remind Windows users that nothing come from
free, there is hard work and the Windows community must create a group
for the maintenance.

The risk is that the MacOS or Windows port will be discontinued. We
need more dev for those platforms, that's the reality.

Regards,

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B

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Re: [darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[Pascal Obry]

Laurent,

> Now I'm stuck on windows waiting for the mac 2.4 version.

That's the way it is because most of the Windows and MacOS user are
"waiting" instead of *contributing*.

The same happens to GIMP, it's a shame that there is some little
contributors for those OS. Just *waiting* won't make things happen and
most dt devs are on GNU/Linux so I cannot myself help about this.

Sorry but I had to say it. 

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B

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[darktable-user] 2.4 for mac :-(

[laurent wawrzyniak]

Hello,


I am using Darktable for three years now on mac

I was so eager to test the haze removal tool that I downloaded the Windows
release.Thank you for the great job you made on this new version!


Now I'm stuck on windows waiting for the mac 2.4 version.


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