Re: [darktable-user] One panel with basics
On jeudi 12 juillet 2018 15:10:27 CEST Ben Oliver wrote: > On 18-07-12 09:05:01, Jason Polak wrote: > >My first point is that if this 'simple slider' function were made part > >of dt, it should be easy to deactivate it so that it does not appear at > >all. > > > >My second point is that perhaps there is also simplicity in the way > >darktable currently does things, and from some users' perspectives, > >having a 'simple slider' function that links to other modules might > >actually complicate the UI. Moreover, if a bunch of new users are > >exposed to the 'simple slider', I wonder if it might make it more > >complicated for some and easier for others? (In that having two ways to > >modify an option might be confusing, and there is a real chance of > >messing up the nice system we already have). > > > >Jason > > You have verbalised my exact thoughts on this. Could not agree more. Given the repeated mention of Lightroom in this thread, I wonder how many of those that want the 'easy' slider panel have been using LR before trying DT. After all, DT on windows isn't all that old... And it's very common to feel disoriented when you have to change your working habits, even when the "new" system is better. That is not to imply that DT's gui is better (or worse) than LR's, but it is different. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] One panel with basics
On 18-07-12 09:05:01, Jason Polak wrote: My first point is that if this 'simple slider' function were made part of dt, it should be easy to deactivate it so that it does not appear at all. My second point is that perhaps there is also simplicity in the way darktable currently does things, and from some users' perspectives, having a 'simple slider' function that links to other modules might actually complicate the UI. Moreover, if a bunch of new users are exposed to the 'simple slider', I wonder if it might make it more complicated for some and easier for others? (In that having two ways to modify an option might be confusing, and there is a real chance of messing up the nice system we already have). Jason You have verbalised my exact thoughts on this. Could not agree more. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [darktable-user] One panel with basics
I would like to provide a counterpoint. I am wondering if perhaps the quick-slider panel way of doing things actually is more natural for people who come from lightroom or other programs, just because it exists in those programs. I pretty much started using darktable first, and only tried Lightroom later. For me, after a few days of using it, using darktable became very natural. This is true for both quick edits and complex development. The concepts I want to use are easily mapped onto darktable functions. In contrast, I tried Lightroom for a few days out of interest and I found their 'quick slider' approach to be frustrating and counterintuitive, simply because I used it after using darktable. After using Lightroom for a while I got used to it too, but I prefer darktable's UI. My first point is that if this 'simple slider' function were made part of dt, it should be easy to deactivate it so that it does not appear at all. My second point is that perhaps there is also simplicity in the way darktable currently does things, and from some users' perspectives, having a 'simple slider' function that links to other modules might actually complicate the UI. Moreover, if a bunch of new users are exposed to the 'simple slider', I wonder if it might make it more complicated for some and easier for others? (In that having two ways to modify an option might be confusing, and there is a real chance of messing up the nice system we already have). Jason On 2018-07-12 01:35 AM, kneops wrote: > I could present myself as an example user. I started like many others in > the ninetees with Photoshop, part as a freelance photographer, later > combied with my profession as a webdesigner. I worked for many years on > Windows and Macs, now exclusively on Linux. I used many kinds of > software, from llustrator to Flash to Gimp to all kinds of video editing > software and raw processors. Never have I encountered a piece of > software that gave me such troubles getting used to as DT. In the last > couple of years I installed and removed it many many times. A few months > ago I gave it another try and now I'm using it as my main raw processor, > but each time hoping there would be a simpler UI. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] One panel with basics
On jeudi 12 juillet 2018 14:00:34 CEST Ben Oliver wrote: > On 18-07-12 07:05:18, Patrick Shanahan wrote: > >if you wish a very basic interface in an editor, there are a few that > >exist. you can use the automagic feature in geeqie or shotwell or > >ShowFoto. > > I think this may be the real answer to the problem. Anything on top of > DT's current system would inadvertently add even more complexity to the > UI, without a massive overhaul. > > And for what gain? To achieve something doable in other programs? My feelings exactly, the more as the 'favourites' panel gets quite close to what is proposed, without hiding the more advanced options in the modules (like masking...) > I have also had to process batches of a few hundred photos and I can't > say I felt the current system of favourite modules and presets has > hindered me too much. There's also the option to copy (part of) the history stack from one image to one or several others, something I had occasion to use recently. I had several hundred images of a performance, in groups of 10-20. Presets/styles would have been clumsy, as basically being single-use, so editing one in each group and copying the history stack was just what was needed there. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] One panel with basics
On 18-07-12 07:05:18, Patrick Shanahan wrote: if you wish a very basic interface in an editor, there are a few that exist. you can use the automagic feature in geeqie or shotwell or ShowFoto. I think this may be the real answer to the problem. Anything on top of DT's current system would inadvertently add even more complexity to the UI, without a massive overhaul. And for what gain? To achieve something doable in other programs? I have also had to process batches of a few hundred photos and I can't say I felt the current system of favourite modules and presets has hindered me too much. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [darktable-user] One panel with basics
* kneops [07-12-18 01:38]: > I understand your point of view, but not every picture needs a lot of > darkroom editing and not every picture is an artwork. > > DT already has its own presets for every slider, so those could be used in > the first 'easy' or 'basic' panel. If needed, a user could use the basics > panel to adjust the sliders the way he wants, then save that as a preset > when importing new images. why not just save your "basics" adjustments which you intend to apply to every import or to a large group as a style and apply the style on import? then dev's do not have to do any work, you have accomplished your end game w/o an additional "easy/basic" panel > It's all about user friendliness and accessibility for (new) users imho. I'm > absolutely sure it would attract (and keep!) much more users if DT would > offer such a basic panel with sliders. Also, in my experience with DT, less > editing often means better and more natural results. anyone beginning with a "new" program must learn how the program works, just the same a using an editor which uses a different command set than you are accustomed, ie: vim/emacs. you learn the basic required steps and those additionally required when necessary, or not. if you wish a very basic interface in an editor, there are a few that exist. you can use the automagic feature in geeqie or shotwell or ShowFoto. > I could present myself as an example user. I started like many others in the > ninetees with Photoshop, part as a freelance photographer, later combied > with my profession as a webdesigner. I worked for many years on Windows and > Macs, now exclusively on Linux. I used many kinds of software, from > llustrator to Flash to Gimp to all kinds of video editing software and raw > processors. Never have I encountered a piece of software that gave me such > troubles getting used to as DT. In the last couple of years I installed and > removed it many many times. A few months ago I gave it another try and now > I'm using it as my main raw processor, but each time hoping there would be a > simpler UI. the "grass is always greener". but what is simpler for you is not necessarily simpler for others. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] One panel with basics
Op 12-07-18 om 04:30 schreef David Vincent-Jones: The 'simple slider' misses out on all of those subtle nuances that makes the output from dt so much different from other systems. And that's exactly why I'd like such a simple slider, indeed to get rid of all the subtle nuances. Your idea for instance in providing simple sliders for 'shadows' and 'highlights' .. what filter would you want and what radius? That's for DT to figure out, or for the SSD (Simple Slider Developer ;-) Anything which is an improvement over the non-edited version is acceptable. And then the person behind the keyboard can select the improvement, or deselect it if it didn't give it sufficient improvement from his perspective. ... and if I wanted other filters would that be just too bad. It takes time and patience to appreciate the fullness of dt, You have no idea how often I've been annoyed by the fact that I can't find what I think I need, at which point DT doesn't give me any support. Just because of the complicated UI and the enormous amount of options. For the couple of times per year that I process my raw images it again and again takes me a few nights to get going. So yes, for the expert I think there is a use case to have all those options available. For the occasional photographer like myself DT is a dense tropical forest hard to find your way through. BTW, the more options available to more important it becomes to have a very well organized UI, whether professional photographer or not. It takes time and patience to appreciate the fullness of dt, Why do I need to appreciate te fullness of DT? in my opinion that effort is well compensated through the creative capability. That's not me you're talking about. IMO you're generalizing the DT population as (semi) professional photographers who can't survive without all the bells and whistles of DT at their disposal. Koos darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
