Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[dt-list]

Hi Kneops,

sorry, still can't halp you.

I've spent some time looking at darktable's Lua API to figure out
whether there would be an easy way to solve your problem, but there is
not.

I came up with a *very experimental* Lua script (attached) that can
call `exiv2` to modify metadata in XMP files, but it comes wit a *lot*
of caveats:

  * It's a one-way street, you can set metadata via `exiv2` in the
sidecar, no way back.

  * Although darktable *seems* to copy even those xmp metadata fields
to exported files it does not know (I've only tested this with
`Xmp.xmp.Label`), you might have to script the copying of metadata
from sidecars to exported images where this fails.

  * Also, you can set new values to the extra metadata fields, but
selecting an image won't show the values of these fields set
previously.

  * You cannot collect by these metadata fields in the "collect
images" module.

  * Probably due to timing issues, images may appear as skulls and be
unaccessible until you restart darktable.

  * Image IDs will change, because darktable needs to re-import the
sidecars after running the external tool, because it needs to read
the XMPs again and there's no Lua API to do this properly.

  * During that re-import, images may disappear from the collection
(if you make `exiv2` change a metadata field defining the
collection), but still be part of the selection.  So with your
next step you might act on invisible images and inadvertently harm
them.

  * Working with the Lua API gave me the feeling of handling something
very fragile.  I don't know whether it's a smart move to build
anything on it.

Maybe this script helps you (or someone else) as a starting point, it
could be easily extended to offer more useful metadate fields, but I
believe it's a crappy approach.  It will not be possible to easily
extend this to solve the points above.  Reasons are, among many
others, that Lua is the language it is, and just not suitable for some
necessary tasks, such as writing a parser for the data returned by an
external tool such as `exiv2`.  Or that darktable contains a lot of
hard coded SQL statements, which makes it practically impossible to
use Lua to extend, e.g., the collection module.  Achieving such
flexibility would probably require a complete redesign of the
lighttable portion of darktable.

Sorry, I will not extend or maintain this script, it was rather a
small learning project for myself.

Of course, there's still the chance that one of the devs will just
implement directly in darktable what you have asked for... Good luck!

Cheers
Stefan


-- 
http://stefan-klinger.deo/X
I prefer receiving plain text messages, not exceeding 32kB. /\/
  \


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org--[[ Note: The intention of this script is not to use `exiv2` to
extend darktable's metadata editor, but rather to have a look at
Lua, and to explore darktable's Lua interface.  ]]

local dt = require "darktable"



local debugging = false



--[[ call `fun(...)` if `debugging` is true. ]]

local function ifDebug(fun, ...)
if debugging then fun(...) end
end



--[[ Append all following arguments to the table given as first
argument. ]]

local function append(t, ...)
for _, v in pairs({...}) do
table.insert(t, v)
end
end



--[[ Lua provides no interface to `execve`.  So we must go through
`os.execute`, which takes one shell command as string, and thus
requires special care when quoting arguments (xkcd.com/327).

From a list (Lua: table) of arguments as one would pass them to
execve(2), create a command string to be passed to the shell via
`os.execute`, assuming that `'` is strong quoting as in
bash(1). ]]

local function mkCmdString(argv)
local words = {}
for _, a in pairs(argv) do
append(words, "'" .. a:gsub("'", "'\\''") .. "'")
end
return table.concat(words, ' ')
end



-- Definition of GUI elements to construct command line arguments
-- ==

-- root widget of the module
local libWidget = dt.new_widget("box"){ orientation = "vertical" }

-- entry field for Xmp.xmp.Label
local labelWidget = dt.new_widget("entry"){
text = '',
placeholder = '(label)',
editable = true,
tooltip = 'Xmp.xmp.Label'
}

-- entry field for Xmp.dc.publisher
local publisherWidget = dt.new_widget("entry"){
text = '',
placeholder = '(publisher)',
editable = true,
tooltip = 'Xmp.dc.publisher'
}

-- add entry fields to root widget
append(libWidget, labelWidget, publisherWidget)



--[[ Helper function to encode string arguments for `exiv2` commands.

FIXME: to do this properly, 

Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

@Hajo, I haven't been able to find the Digikam (XMP) equivalent of the 
DT tag list. Do you know which one this is?
Also (this is a Digikam question, sort of) I can't figure out how to use 
Digikam to show folders. I can only import/add images to albums.


By the way, I still can't work with this. I just edited 60 photos in DT 
and importing them into an album in DK I can't see which photos I edited :(.
I could reverse my workflow, so first select and add metadata to all 
images in DK, and then edit selected images in DT. But when importing 
the folder in DT I don't know which photos I selected in DK so I don't 
know which oners I need to edit.


I could create two folders inside each image folder, one for selected 
images and one for those I don't want to edit now but want to keep. Then 
only import the selected images in DT. Then export all images to jpegs 
with hopefully all XMP data and send them to the publisher.


I feel very strongly that this is not the way to go.

Are there not more people here that want/need more metadata in DT? Then 
we could do a kind of crowdfunding. I'm happy to contribute 100 euros 
for this.







Op 13-05-19 om 08:46 schreef HaJo Schatz:
I'm using both DT and DK on Linux and don't import/export. Both 
programs have access to the folder structure that holds my photos and 
tagging in one program is seamlessly picked up by the other. I use 
sidecars for RAW images, obviously.

--
Sent from my mobile device, apologies for typos

PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/2016PGPKEY


On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 2:05 PM Kneops > wrote:


I asked this before and there are a number of replies about this. See
below. Unfortunately it seems that almost no one wants or needs
this???
Imho it is so basic to photography and DAM.

It's the most important part in DT that I and is now forcing me to
buy a
second computer with Windows and a subscription to Adobe CC
instead of
using DT (I'm using Linux Mint).  I'm a freelancer and this year I
will
be able to work for a newspaper and they require a few extra IPTC
fields, like Person Show in Image, Location, City, Job ID and some
more.
I tried using Adobe in Virtualbox with shared folders, but this isn't
really working very well. Digikam is an option as well as command
line
tools, but I don't like the idea of using two programs, plus it
would be
very inefficient to export from DT, then import in DigiKam and add
metadata there and export again.

https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12266
https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/9531
https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12476

Jack


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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

Hi Anton. Just to point out that this is about adding XMP information to 
images, not changing Exif.






Op 14-05-19 om 00:21 schreef Anton Aylward:

On 13/05/2019 07:06, mick crane wrote:

windows there's
https://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/   exiftools
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/~bogdan/   GUI for exiftools

linux looks like exiv2 will do it.

There's a lot of artificially generated umbrage here.
The UNIX principle of "each thing does one thing and does it well" makes no
sense other than in a UNIX/Linux context because of the interprocess
communication and management tools.

To a UNIX/Linux programmer a program spawning off a child process that does a
specialized task and returns the result to the parent is quite natural because
of the co-processing and 'pipes' nature of the OS and libraries.

And yes this feature is available in the shell.
(See the section on 'Coprocess' in the man page)

And yes you can set it up so both processes stay active and control passes back
and forth.

And yes you can do this with GUI-dom.

The question is not "can you" but "should you".

Elsewhere the developers of DT have written on the evils of modifying the EXIF
information.  q.v.





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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[mick crane]

On 2019-05-14 06:54, Timur Irikovich Davletshin wrote:

On Tue, 2019-05-14 at 06:40 +0200, Reto wrote:

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 03:42:55PM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> PLEASE post large files/images to a file sharing service rather
> than send
> them to everyone on the list, many who may not be interested and
> other who
> may be on measured service and you drive up their cost.

It's 164 KB... not "large". Plus if you are on a metered service, why
would you download the attachment at all?
Most of the email clients allow you to not download "large" messages.

It wouldn't make a difference to put it in a different site, as you
*still* wouldn't be able to look at it if you are afraid of the data
consumption.
So the end effect is the same

Just my 2c


Pay no attention, Patrick keeps sending these kind of letters everybody
who uses "Add Attachment" button. Very few can understand logic behind
it )))



To be fair I was a bit surprised but I was interested and it is a media 
list so I forgave him.
Some, particularly Linux lists can be a bit like the Mormons and will 
tear your head off for mailing attachments, apart from sigs.
There is so much stuff flying about the internet these days I'm 
surprised anything works at all.


mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Timur Irikovich Davletshin]

On Tue, 2019-05-14 at 06:40 +0200, Reto wrote:
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 03:42:55PM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> > PLEASE post large files/images to a file sharing service rather
> > than send
> > them to everyone on the list, many who may not be interested and
> > other who
> > may be on measured service and you drive up their cost.
> 
> It's 164 KB... not "large". Plus if you are on a metered service, why
> would you download the attachment at all?
> Most of the email clients allow you to not download "large" messages.
> 
> It wouldn't make a difference to put it in a different site, as you
> *still* wouldn't be able to look at it if you are afraid of the data
> consumption.
> So the end effect is the same
> 
> Just my 2c

Pay no attention, Patrick keeps sending these kind of letters everybody
who uses "Add Attachment" button. Very few can understand logic behind
it )))

Timur.


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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Reto]

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 03:42:55PM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> PLEASE post large files/images to a file sharing service rather than send
> them to everyone on the list, many who may not be interested and other who
> may be on measured service and you drive up their cost.

It's 164 KB... not "large". Plus if you are on a metered service, why would you 
download the attachment at all?
Most of the email clients allow you to not download "large" messages.

It wouldn't make a difference to put it in a different site, as you *still* 
wouldn't be able to look at it if you are afraid of the data consumption.
So the end effect is the same

Just my 2c

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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Anton Aylward]

On 13/05/2019 07:06, mick crane wrote:
> windows there's
> https://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/   exiftools
> http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/~bogdan/   GUI for exiftools
> 
> linux looks like exiv2 will do it.

There's a lot of artificially generated umbrage here.
The UNIX principle of "each thing does one thing and does it well" makes no
sense other than in a UNIX/Linux context because of the interprocess
communication and management tools.

To a UNIX/Linux programmer a program spawning off a child process that does a
specialized task and returns the result to the parent is quite natural because
of the co-processing and 'pipes' nature of the OS and libraries.

And yes this feature is available in the shell.
(See the section on 'Coprocess' in the man page)

And yes you can set it up so both processes stay active and control passes back
and forth.

And yes you can do this with GUI-dom.

The question is not "can you" but "should you".

Elsewhere the developers of DT have written on the evils of modifying the EXIF
information.  q.v.


-- 
“We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go
mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with
one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly
more captivating than the first.”
   ―― Charles Mackay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds

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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Bernhard  [05-13-19 15:00]:
> 
> 
> Bernhard schrieb am 13.05.19 um 17:27:
> > 
> > 
> > mick crane schrieb am 13.05.19 um 13:06:
> > > windows there's
> > > https://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/   exiftools
> > > http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/~bogdan/   GUI for exiftools
> > > 
> > > linux looks like exiv2 will do it.
> > there is
> > http://hvdwolf.github.io/pyExifToolGUI/
> > for linux - also based on exiftool.
> > 
> > But: don't know if that's working on the darktable xmp's also - never
> > tested.
> > 
> See attached, I'd suggest to try this:
> You select an xmp (not the image file itself), press "copy from image" (then
> you see what has been entered in darktable), fill the other fields, "save to
> images" ...
> 
> You should test if darktable exports these additional xmp information from
> the xmp to the exported jpg.

PLEASE post large files/images to a file sharing service rather than send
them to everyone on the list, many who may not be interested and other who
may be on measured service and you drive up their cost.


-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

I did not know that, but you wrote 'open source; so I could gave guested 
that :)


Just watched a video and it is quite impressing. although I still think 
it is too much for what I need. I have my folders well organized, so I 
don't really need such software.
And there still is the fact that I would have to export my images from 
DT because otherwise I would not be able to see which images I edited 
(ie I edit 20 images but want to keep the rest) because ratings and 
color labels are gone. Just like in DK today when I opened a folder with 
edited photos. I can't see which ones I edited.


@Bernhard, pyExifToolGui looks great, but if I'm right that would give 
me the same problem, namely no way to see (except by comparing 
filenames) which images I edited in DT.






Op 13-05-19 om 21:10 schreef David Vincent-Jones:


ResourceSpace can be used on a local basis without cost it is full 
open source.


On 2019-05-13 11:58 a.m., Kneops wrote:

I did not know ResourceSpace, but have you seen their prices?
Currently I'm using Photodeck and busy to edit/export/upload all my 
photos.

If only DT would... 

https://www.jacktummers.com/




Op 13-05-19 om 20:37 schreef David Vincent-Jones:


Possibly one solution could be the integrated export/import to a 
dedicated open source DAM like ResourceSpace.


This would allow personal modifications by the user to suit all needs.

On 2019-05-13 11:00 a.m., Remco Viëtor wrote:

On lundi 13 mai 2019 18:35:07 CEST Kneops wrote:

I noticed DK is using exiv2 and offers (way too) many XMP fields. A lot
of them are perhaps nice for museums and such, a photographer needs only
a small number.

Probably correct, but the exact fields needed can vary. Personally, I have no
use for a 'person in image' field or similar, but the taxonomy fields could be
useful :P

Also note that exiv2 (or exiftools) are only there to give you access to the
metadata within the image, they do not impose the use of specific fields. So
remarking on the library Digikam uses is a red herring wrt. this discussion.


A friend who already works for a news paper uses LR and
one default field is Job identifier, so the administration knows where
to send the bill ;).

Personshowinimage is part of the IPTC extension, but is already inside
XMP too.

 From the IPTC web site, I got the impression that one form of IPTC is an XMP
namespace.

Also, dt will only use the XMP version: sidecars have no room for the original
IMM/IPTC format.

Remco






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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[David Vincent-Jones]

ResourceSpace can be used on a local basis without cost it is full open 
source.


On 2019-05-13 11:58 a.m., Kneops wrote:

I did not know ResourceSpace, but have you seen their prices?
Currently I'm using Photodeck and busy to edit/export/upload all my 
photos.

If only DT would... 

https://www.jacktummers.com/




Op 13-05-19 om 20:37 schreef David Vincent-Jones:


Possibly one solution could be the integrated export/import to a 
dedicated open source DAM like ResourceSpace.


This would allow personal modifications by the user to suit all needs.

On 2019-05-13 11:00 a.m., Remco Viëtor wrote:

On lundi 13 mai 2019 18:35:07 CEST Kneops wrote:

I noticed DK is using exiv2 and offers (way too) many XMP fields. A lot
of them are perhaps nice for museums and such, a photographer needs only
a small number.

Probably correct, but the exact fields needed can vary. Personally, I have no
use for a 'person in image' field or similar, but the taxonomy fields could be
useful :P

Also note that exiv2 (or exiftools) are only there to give you access to the
metadata within the image, they do not impose the use of specific fields. So
remarking on the library Digikam uses is a red herring wrt. this discussion.


A friend who already works for a news paper uses LR and
one default field is Job identifier, so the administration knows where
to send the bill ;).

Personshowinimage is part of the IPTC extension, but is already inside
XMP too.

 From the IPTC web site, I got the impression that one form of IPTC is an XMP
namespace.

Also, dt will only use the XMP version: sidecars have no room for the original
IMM/IPTC format.

Remco






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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

I did not know ResourceSpace, but have you seen their prices?
Currently I'm using Photodeck and busy to edit/export/upload all my photos.
If only DT would... 

https://www.jacktummers.com/




Op 13-05-19 om 20:37 schreef David Vincent-Jones:


Possibly one solution could be the integrated export/import to a 
dedicated open source DAM like ResourceSpace.


This would allow personal modifications by the user to suit all needs.

On 2019-05-13 11:00 a.m., Remco Viëtor wrote:

On lundi 13 mai 2019 18:35:07 CEST Kneops wrote:

I noticed DK is using exiv2 and offers (way too) many XMP fields. A lot
of them are perhaps nice for museums and such, a photographer needs only
a small number.

Probably correct, but the exact fields needed can vary. Personally, I have no
use for a 'person in image' field or similar, but the taxonomy fields could be
useful :P

Also note that exiv2 (or exiftools) are only there to give you access to the
metadata within the image, they do not impose the use of specific fields. So
remarking on the library Digikam uses is a red herring wrt. this discussion.


A friend who already works for a news paper uses LR and
one default field is Job identifier, so the administration knows where
to send the bill ;).

Personshowinimage is part of the IPTC extension, but is already inside
XMP too.

 From the IPTC web site, I got the impression that one form of IPTC is an XMP
namespace.

Also, dt will only use the XMP version: sidecars have no room for the original
IMM/IPTC format.

Remco






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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[David Vincent-Jones]

Possibly one solution could be the integrated export/import to a 
dedicated open source DAM like ResourceSpace.


This would allow personal modifications by the user to suit all needs.

On 2019-05-13 11:00 a.m., Remco Viëtor wrote:

On lundi 13 mai 2019 18:35:07 CEST Kneops wrote:

I noticed DK is using exiv2 and offers (way too) many XMP fields. A lot
of them are perhaps nice for museums and such, a photographer needs only
a small number.

Probably correct, but the exact fields needed can vary. Personally, I have no
use for a 'person in image' field or similar, but the taxonomy fields could be
useful :P

Also note that exiv2 (or exiftools) are only there to give you access to the
metadata within the image, they do not impose the use of specific fields. So
remarking on the library Digikam uses is a red herring wrt. this discussion.


A friend who already works for a news paper uses LR and
one default field is Job identifier, so the administration knows where
to send the bill ;).

Personshowinimage is part of the IPTC extension, but is already inside
XMP too.

 From the IPTC web site, I got the impression that one form of IPTC is an XMP
namespace.

Also, dt will only use the XMP version: sidecars have no room for the original
IMM/IPTC format.

Remco






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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Remco Viëtor]

On lundi 13 mai 2019 18:35:07 CEST Kneops wrote:
> I noticed DK is using exiv2 and offers (way too) many XMP fields. A lot
> of them are perhaps nice for museums and such, a photographer needs only
> a small number.

Probably correct, but the exact fields needed can vary. Personally, I have no 
use for a 'person in image' field or similar, but the taxonomy fields could be 
useful :P

Also note that exiv2 (or exiftools) are only there to give you access to the 
metadata within the image, they do not impose the use of specific fields. So 
remarking on the library Digikam uses is a red herring wrt. this discussion.

> A friend who already works for a news paper uses LR and
> one default field is Job identifier, so the administration knows where
> to send the bill ;).
> 
> Personshowinimage is part of the IPTC extension, but is already inside
> XMP too.

>From the IPTC web site, I got the impression that one form of IPTC is an XMP 
namespace.

Also, dt will only use the XMP version: sidecars have no room for the original 
IMM/IPTC format.

Remco






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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

I noticed DK is using exiv2 and offers (way too) many XMP fields. A lot 
of them are perhaps nice for museums and such, a photographer needs only 
a small number. A friend who already works for a news paper uses LR and 
one default field is Job identifier, so the administration knows where 
to send the bill ;).


Personshowinimage is part of the IPTC extension, but is already inside 
XMP too.





Op 13-05-19 om 13:06 schreef mick crane:

windows there's
https://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/   exiftools
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/~bogdan/   GUI for exiftools

linux looks like exiv2 will do it.

mick




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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

You're right Bernhard, it seems that XMP is going to replace IPTC and 
some XMP fields already 'translate' some of these IPTC fields into the 
new standard, which is XMP.




Op 13-05-19 om 17:55 schreef Bernhard:


That said it would be more interesting to add more of the xmp-fields 
for a more complete support. 



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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

Hi guys,

I'm really going to try and find a way to use both DT and DK, but the 
workflow is not pleasant and, like Lorenzo says, can lead to unnecessary 
back and forth between programs.


I just did a test and opened a previously in DT edited folder with 
images in DK. The first thing I notice is that I see the unedited 
version of images, not what I see in DT (with history stack). So I don't 
know which images I need. Also the labelling in DK is different from the 
one in DT. I useally first color label them, then edit the images, add 
another color label so I know which ones are finished and I want to 
export. In DK I only see the filenames. And like Lorenzo says, I don't 
want to first export all images in DT to jpegs and then add the metadata 
in DK, because this way I can do everything all over when I change 
things in DT or a client wants a different photo.


This really is not doable. Perhaps once in a while, but not when you 
have to quickly edit, select, tag, export and sent to a client. I mean, 
it is so nice to be able to edit in DT, rate an label images, even being 
able to search each and every image imported, but not add metadata. It 
would really help to add at least the most widely used set of metadata 
required by (news) agencies. Perhaps that will be a total of max 10 or 
15 fields, no more. Lightroom includes this small list of metadata fields.






Op 13-05-19 om 17:30 schreef Lorenzo Bolzani:


This is very nice in theory and in some situations it works too. But 
in many others it's just a mess.


Let's suppose I have 2000+ pictures, I rate them, tag and process them 
with DT. Now I'm done and I export 300 jpeg files. Now I start digikam 
or something else, import the exported files and add the extra info to 
them. Not ideal but acceptable. I send the shots to the customer. Now, 
after a couple of days the client calls me: hey, can you please crop 
these three images a little more? Sure, I open dt and process the 
images. Now I export them again and...oh, gosh, I have overwritten the 
exif data, let me find the notes with this guys names and set them 
again... Ok, I found it, now...what are the images I modified? Ok, 
easy, let's sort them by modification date... Oh, this program does 
not support file modification date, let's sort by filename...


Of course you can hack something around this: use tags as temporary 
IPCT fields, now run a script that read them from the xml and copy 
them into the final field...



Simple individual tools works fine if you can integrate them in an 
automated way. I works as a charm on command line tools.


I mean, why does DT does raw conversion and editing too? This is 
wrong! You can use another simple tool to do the sharpening and 
another one to add the watermark after the export. And exiftool for 
the data.


What goes in a program is quite arbitrary. Nobody wants a kitchen sink 
but neither juggling between three programs for daily things.



Maybe adding the list of fields as a configuration parameter so that 
each user can fine tune the list (not even exposed in the gui, 
something you edit as text file)? This does not sound as bloat to me. 
Another sacred unix principle is the possibility to customize/fine 
tune the tools often just not to waste time with a clumsy workflow.




Lorenzo

Il giorno lun 13 mag 2019 alle ore 11:48 > ha scritto:


tl;dr: If it can be done with 3rd party software, you should like it.

Hi, sorry, I cannot solve your problem, since I do almost no metadata
editing.  But I'd like to comment on one important misconception:

Kneops (2019-May-13, excerpt):
> I really would like to be able to do this in one program (DT)

This desire, voiced by many users and not limited to DT, has led the
IT world to bloated, unmaintainable and inflexible monolithic
applications, much pain and frustration.

Building an application that does everything you need will lead to
feature creep [1] inevitably: Other people probably want other
features which must be added as well (unless you're special, e.g. the
maintainer or the sole paying customer).

Applications implementing a certain feature are unlikely to be
flexible enough to hand this task off to an application which is
better at it.  So if your does-all-application A also solves a minor
side task X, you won't be able to use another application B, which
specializes on X and solves it better.  You're locked into using A
because the other things it does, you're bound to the crappy solution
A provides.

The Unix Philosophy [2] and KISS Principle [3], while debatable in
their most extremist interpretations, lead a way out of this: Do not
add features to a program that could be easily handed of to an
external tool.

Of course, it is the fine art of designing an application to decide
which features to include, and which to exclude.  For my part, I'd
love to 

Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Lorenzo Bolzani]

This is very nice in theory and in some situations it works too. But in
many others it's just a mess.

Let's suppose I have 2000+ pictures, I rate them, tag and process them with
DT. Now I'm done and I export 300 jpeg files. Now I start digikam or
something else, import the exported files and add the extra info to them.
Not ideal but acceptable. I send the shots to the customer. Now, after a
couple of days the client calls me: hey, can you please crop these three
images a little more? Sure, I open dt and process the images. Now I export
them again and...oh, gosh, I have overwritten the exif data, let me find
the notes with this guys names and set them again... Ok, I found it,
now...what are the images I modified? Ok, easy, let's sort them by
modification date... Oh, this program does not support file modification
date, let's sort by filename...

Of course you can hack something around this: use tags as temporary IPCT
fields, now run a script that read them from the xml and copy them into the
final field...


Simple individual tools works fine if you can integrate them in an
automated way. I works as a charm on command line tools.

I mean, why does DT does raw conversion and editing too? This is wrong! You
can use another simple tool to do the sharpening and another one to add the
watermark after the export. And exiftool for the data.

What goes in a program is quite arbitrary. Nobody wants a kitchen sink but
neither juggling between three programs for daily things.


Maybe adding the list of fields as a configuration parameter so that each
user can fine tune the list (not even exposed in the gui, something you
edit as text file)? This does not sound as bloat to me. Another sacred unix
principle is the possibility to customize/fine tune the tools often just
not to waste time with a clumsy workflow.



Lorenzo

Il giorno lun 13 mag 2019 alle ore 11:48  ha
scritto:

> tl;dr: If it can be done with 3rd party software, you should like it.
>
> Hi, sorry, I cannot solve your problem, since I do almost no metadata
> editing.  But I'd like to comment on one important misconception:
>
> Kneops (2019-May-13, excerpt):
> > I really would like to be able to do this in one program (DT)
>
> This desire, voiced by many users and not limited to DT, has led the
> IT world to bloated, unmaintainable and inflexible monolithic
> applications, much pain and frustration.
>
> Building an application that does everything you need will lead to
> feature creep [1] inevitably: Other people probably want other
> features which must be added as well (unless you're special, e.g. the
> maintainer or the sole paying customer).
>
> Applications implementing a certain feature are unlikely to be
> flexible enough to hand this task off to an application which is
> better at it.  So if your does-all-application A also solves a minor
> side task X, you won't be able to use another application B, which
> specializes on X and solves it better.  You're locked into using A
> because the other things it does, you're bound to the crappy solution
> A provides.
>
> The Unix Philosophy [2] and KISS Principle [3], while debatable in
> their most extremist interpretations, lead a way out of this: Do not
> add features to a program that could be easily handed of to an
> external tool.
>
> Of course, it is the fine art of designing an application to decide
> which features to include, and which to exclude.  For my part, I'd
> love to have darktables lighttable and darkroom views split into
> entirely separate applications, communicating only via the XMPs —
> unlikely to happen.
>
> Back to your problem: If someone out there has a way to do metadata
> editing externally, in a way compatible with DT and your needs, then
> that's a really good thing!  We should encourage the DT devs to
> improve such external interfaces.
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
>
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_Principle
>
>
> --
> http://stefan-klinger.deo/X
> I prefer receiving plain text messages, not exceeding 32kB. /\/
>   \
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[johannes hanika]

hi,

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 11:43 AM  wrote:
>
> tl;dr: If it can be done with 3rd party software, you should like it.
>
> Hi, sorry, I cannot solve your problem, since I do almost no metadata
> editing.  But I'd like to comment on one important misconception:
>
> Kneops (2019-May-13, excerpt):
> > I really would like to be able to do this in one program (DT)
>
> This desire, voiced by many users and not limited to DT, has led the
> IT world to bloated, unmaintainable and inflexible monolithic
> applications, much pain and frustration.

that is true on so many levels! cannot agree more. for integrated
workflow applications maybe the equivalent would be separating the
backend into more modular design. i would certainly love things to be
less bloaty.

-jo

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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Šarūnas]

On 5/13/19 5:34 AM, dt-l...@stefan-klinger.de wrote:
> tl;dr: If it can be done with 3rd party software, you should like it.
> 
> Hi, sorry, I cannot solve your problem, since I do almost no metadata
> editing.  But I'd like to comment on one important misconception:
> 
> Kneops (2019-May-13, excerpt):
>> I really would like to be able to do this in one program (DT)
> 
> This desire, voiced by many users and not limited to DT, has led the
> IT world to bloated, unmaintainable and inflexible monolithic
> applications, much pain and frustration.
> 
> Building an application that does everything you need will lead to
> feature creep [1] inevitably: Other people probably want other
> features which must be added as well (unless you're special, e.g. the
> maintainer or the sole paying customer).
> 
> Applications implementing a certain feature are unlikely to be
> flexible enough to hand this task off to an application which is
> better at it.  So if your does-all-application A also solves a minor
> side task X, you won't be able to use another application B, which
> specializes on X and solves it better.  You're locked into using A
> because the other things it does, you're bound to the crappy solution
> A provides.
> 
> The Unix Philosophy [2] and KISS Principle [3], while debatable in
> their most extremist interpretations, lead a way out of this: Do not
> add features to a program that could be easily handed of to an
> external tool.
> [...]

Stefan,
I agree with your points in general, but I don't see adding fuller
support for metadata in dt as a feature bloat. To me it looks like a
rather basic and essential feature, part of the of good digital
photography practice... I would be glad to be able to code what's
needed, but unfortunate that's not likely anytime soon...

-- 
Šarūnas Burdulis
math.dartmouth.edu/~sarunas



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[mick crane]

windows there's
https://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/   exiftools
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/~bogdan/   GUI for exiftools

linux looks like exiv2 will do it.

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[dt-list]

tl;dr: If it can be done with 3rd party software, you should like it.

Hi, sorry, I cannot solve your problem, since I do almost no metadata
editing.  But I'd like to comment on one important misconception:

Kneops (2019-May-13, excerpt):
> I really would like to be able to do this in one program (DT)

This desire, voiced by many users and not limited to DT, has led the
IT world to bloated, unmaintainable and inflexible monolithic
applications, much pain and frustration.

Building an application that does everything you need will lead to
feature creep [1] inevitably: Other people probably want other
features which must be added as well (unless you're special, e.g. the
maintainer or the sole paying customer).

Applications implementing a certain feature are unlikely to be
flexible enough to hand this task off to an application which is
better at it.  So if your does-all-application A also solves a minor
side task X, you won't be able to use another application B, which
specializes on X and solves it better.  You're locked into using A
because the other things it does, you're bound to the crappy solution
A provides.

The Unix Philosophy [2] and KISS Principle [3], while debatable in
their most extremist interpretations, lead a way out of this: Do not
add features to a program that could be easily handed of to an
external tool.

Of course, it is the fine art of designing an application to decide
which features to include, and which to exclude.  For my part, I'd
love to have darktables lighttable and darkroom views split into
entirely separate applications, communicating only via the XMPs —
unlikely to happen.

Back to your problem: If someone out there has a way to do metadata
editing externally, in a way compatible with DT and your needs, then
that's a really good thing!  We should encourage the DT devs to
improve such external interfaces.

Cheers,
Stefan


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_Principle


-- 
http://stefan-klinger.deo/X
I prefer receiving plain text messages, not exceeding 32kB. /\/
  \

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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Remco Viëtor]

On lundi 13 mai 2019 08:54:28 CEST Kneops wrote:
> Hi HaJo. Aside from that I really would like to be able to do this in
> one program (DT), how does this work? I have never been really able to
> add metadata in DK (just can't get it to work), but if I get it to work,
> are the meta fields then visible in DT? You see, I could then add
> metadata in DK for now, but I need to do the labelling and editing in DT
> and at the end export to Jpeg. The I need ALL the metadata exported to
> jpegs and not just title, description and tags/keywords.

Why do you *need* to do the labelling in dt? If you don't need to edit a field 
in dt, it's not a problem if that particular field is not visible.

And have you tested whether all metadata are transmitted to the final jpgs? 
(hint: at least exif metadata are by default exported).

As for getting all you need in one program: I'm not sure either dt or digikam 
have the development staff to implement and maintain that...

Oh, at least one of the fields you wanted ("person shown in image") is an 
extended IPTC tag, and not currenctly present Digikam's editor. As far as I 
could check, the core IPTC fields are editable in Digikam.

Remco



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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

Hi HaJo. Aside from that I really would like to be able to do this in 
one program (DT), how does this work? I have never been really able to 
add metadata in DK (just can't get it to work), but if I get it to work, 
are the meta fields then visible in DT? You see, I could then add 
metadata in DK for now, but I need to do the labelling and editing in DT 
and at the end export to Jpeg. The I need ALL the metadata exported to 
jpegs and not just title, description and tags/keywords.




Op 13-05-19 om 08:46 schreef HaJo Schatz:
I'm using both DT and DK on Linux and don't import/export. Both 
programs have access to the folder structure that holds my photos and 
tagging in one program is seamlessly picked up by the other. I use 
sidecars for RAW images, obviously.

--
Sent from my mobile device, apologies for typos

PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/2016PGPKEY


On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 2:05 PM Kneops > wrote:


I asked this before and there are a number of replies about this. See
below. Unfortunately it seems that almost no one wants or needs
this???
Imho it is so basic to photography and DAM.

It's the most important part in DT that I and is now forcing me to
buy a
second computer with Windows and a subscription to Adobe CC
instead of
using DT (I'm using Linux Mint).  I'm a freelancer and this year I
will
be able to work for a newspaper and they require a few extra IPTC
fields, like Person Show in Image, Location, City, Job ID and some
more.
I tried using Adobe in Virtualbox with shared folders, but this isn't
really working very well. Digikam is an option as well as command
line
tools, but I don't like the idea of using two programs, plus it
would be
very inefficient to export from DT, then import in DigiKam and add
metadata there and export again.

https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12266
https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/9531
https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12476

Jack


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Re: [darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[HaJo Schatz]

I'm using both DT and DK on Linux and don't import/export. Both programs
have access to the folder structure that holds my photos and tagging in one
program is seamlessly picked up by the other. I use sidecars for RAW
images, obviously.
-- 
Sent from my mobile device, apologies for typos

PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/2016PGPKEY


On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 2:05 PM Kneops  wrote:

> I asked this before and there are a number of replies about this. See
> below. Unfortunately it seems that almost no one wants or needs this???
> Imho it is so basic to photography and DAM.
>
> It's the most important part in DT that I and is now forcing me to buy a
> second computer with Windows and a subscription to Adobe CC instead of
> using DT (I'm using Linux Mint).  I'm a freelancer and this year I will
> be able to work for a newspaper and they require a few extra IPTC
> fields, like Person Show in Image, Location, City, Job ID and some more.
> I tried using Adobe in Virtualbox with shared folders, but this isn't
> really working very well. Digikam is an option as well as command line
> tools, but I don't like the idea of using two programs, plus it would be
> very inefficient to export from DT, then import in DigiKam and add
> metadata there and export again.
>
> https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12266
> https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/9531
> https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12476
>
> Jack
>
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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[darktable-user] What about adding more IPTC fields to the metadata editor?

[Kneops]

I asked this before and there are a number of replies about this. See 
below. Unfortunately it seems that almost no one wants or needs this???

Imho it is so basic to photography and DAM.

It's the most important part in DT that I and is now forcing me to buy a 
second computer with Windows and a subscription to Adobe CC instead of 
using DT (I'm using Linux Mint).  I'm a freelancer and this year I will 
be able to work for a newspaper and they require a few extra IPTC 
fields, like Person Show in Image, Location, City, Job ID and some more. 
I tried using Adobe in Virtualbox with shared folders, but this isn't 
really working very well. Digikam is an option as well as command line 
tools, but I don't like the idea of using two programs, plus it would be 
very inefficient to export from DT, then import in DigiKam and add 
metadata there and export again.


https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12266
https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/9531
https://redmine.darktable.org/issues/12476

Jack


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