Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[Louis Erickson]

> On Oct 5, 2016, at 5:28 AM, Lasse Makholm  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Leo Lapworth  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> On 5 October 2016 at 10:44, Peter Rabbitson  wrote:
>>> On 10/05/2016 08:50 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:
> 
> It is now much harder to advance either of these points.
 
 Why?
 
>>> Because now that you causally dropped an insinuation that a part of the work
>>> I put into DBIC itself was performed for material gain
>> 
>> I can't say I considered this for a moment when reading Karen's comment.
>> 
>> I would hope that anyone doing such great work as you did in an Open Source
>> project SHOULD have the opportunity to make some money by supporting
>> the companies that use it, but I only consider this now you mention
>> material gain.
>> 
>> I read Karen's comment as a validation of how important, not just to
>> casual users
>> but to businesses the work you have or are doing. This is a sign of a 
>> successful
>> project, not an issue in my mind.
> 
> I totally agree. Anyone who knows enough about DBIC (or open source
> software in general for that matter) to have read this thread, will
> know that your (Peter's) involvement in this project is infinitely
> more than just a cash-grab. Frankly, to me at least, that notion is
> ludicrous.
> 
> I too hail from a critical production environment relying on DBIC at
> its core. We've come to rely (and probably take for granted) the
> stability of DBIC and thus the expertise and diligence of its
> maintainer(s).
> 
> However, I too worry about DBIC becoming a one-man project. The idea
> of a core-team kind of setup, focused on stability sounds sensible to
> me. And I have no good reason to think it wouldn't work.

I'm in the same group as all of these.

This is hardly a hugely public discussion.  It is archived on the web, but 
unless you're looking for it, stray people probably won't read it.  There are 
unlikely to be many "casual readers" of this discussion to misunderstand.

A team member - even the team leader - doing a private contract for a business 
is normal and expected behavior.  No one who knows either Ribasushi or Karen 
would have thought for a moment that the changes requested would have been at 
the expense of the project as a whole or any kind of money grab or financial 
impropriety.  It's someone who wanted something specific to their needs, and 
was hiring the best person available to get it done.  That's really common in 
OSS.


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Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[Lasse Makholm]

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Leo Lapworth  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 5 October 2016 at 10:44, Peter Rabbitson  wrote:
> > On 10/05/2016 08:50 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is now much harder to advance either of these points.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >>
> > Because now that you causally dropped an insinuation that a part of the work
> > I put into DBIC itself was performed for material gain
>
> I can't say I considered this for a moment when reading Karen's comment.
>
> I would hope that anyone doing such great work as you did in an Open Source
> project SHOULD have the opportunity to make some money by supporting
> the companies that use it, but I only consider this now you mention
> material gain.
>
> I read Karen's comment as a validation of how important, not just to
> casual users
> but to businesses the work you have or are doing. This is a sign of a 
> successful
> project, not an issue in my mind.

I totally agree. Anyone who knows enough about DBIC (or open source
software in general for that matter) to have read this thread, will
know that your (Peter's) involvement in this project is infinitely
more than just a cash-grab. Frankly, to me at least, that notion is
ludicrous.

I too hail from a critical production environment relying on DBIC at
its core. We've come to rely (and probably take for granted) the
stability of DBIC and thus the expertise and diligence of its
maintainer(s).

However, I too worry about DBIC becoming a one-man project. The idea
of a core-team kind of setup, focused on stability sounds sensible to
me. And I have no good reason to think it wouldn't work.

/Lasse

>
> Leo
>
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Re: [Dbix-class] A slightly more concrete proposal

[Nigel Metheringham]

Background: I have been a happy DBIx::Class user from the early days.  I
have some code contributions within DBIC and SQLA, although relatively
small ones, but have not had a need to make changes in recent years, so
have recently been a silent DBIC mailing list member.

Riba has put in a lot of work over a number of years maintaining and
improving DBIx::Class - the level of commitment in this should in no way
be understated.

However going forward I would prefer to see an amicable move to a
maintainer team with an initial core membership as indicated by MST.

There needs to remain a focus on ensuring DBIC remains stable and does
not eat data.

Regards

Nigel.

-- 

[ Nigel Metheringham -- ni...@dotdot.it ] 
[ Ellipsis Intangible Technologies  ]
 



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Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[Colin Newell]

On 5 October 2016 at 11:23, Leo Lapworth  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 5 October 2016 at 10:44, Peter Rabbitson  wrote:
>> On 10/05/2016 08:50 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:

 It is now much harder to advance either of these points.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>> Because now that you causally dropped an insinuation that a part of the work
>> I put into DBIC itself was performed for material gain
>
> I can't say I considered this for a moment when reading Karen's comment.
>
> I would hope that anyone doing such great work as you did in an Open Source
> project SHOULD have the opportunity to make some money by supporting
> the companies that use it, but I only consider this now you mention
> material gain.
>
> I read Karen's comment as a validation of how important, not just to
> casual users
> but to businesses the work you have or are doing. This is a sign of a 
> successful
> project, not an issue in my mind.
>
> Leo

Ditto.

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Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[Leo Lapworth]

Hi,

On 5 October 2016 at 10:44, Peter Rabbitson  wrote:
> On 10/05/2016 08:50 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:
>>>
>>> It is now much harder to advance either of these points.
>>
>> Why?
>>
> Because now that you causally dropped an insinuation that a part of the work
> I put into DBIC itself was performed for material gain

I can't say I considered this for a moment when reading Karen's comment.

I would hope that anyone doing such great work as you did in an Open Source
project SHOULD have the opportunity to make some money by supporting
the companies that use it, but I only consider this now you mention
material gain.

I read Karen's comment as a validation of how important, not just to
casual users
but to businesses the work you have or are doing. This is a sign of a successful
project, not an issue in my mind.

Leo

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Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[Peter Rabbitson]

On 10/05/2016 08:50 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:

It is now much harder to advance either of these points.


Why?



Because now that you causally dropped an insinuation that a part of the 
work I put into DBIC itself was performed for material gain, a casual 
reader could interpret this entire thread as "Ribasushi tried to 
strangle a CPAN project for his own profit". That would be despite the 
fact that the core of your ( very complex and multi-layered ) 
work-related issue is in a module outside of ( and discouraged by ) the 
DBIC project, and as such entirely outside of the scope of this discussion.


Given I have not placed a single line into *this* codebase with material 
gain in mind, and because it is very important to me to distance myself 
from the above implication, I essentially no longer can send you folks 
an invoice for the other only tangentially related bits.


I am certain it won't really change the outcome of your employer still 
getting what they wanted, given some of the pieces involved in fixing 
your problem moved along far enough that I can't not wrap this up, in 
light of my obligation to *other* users of the 
::ResultSet::RecursiveUpdate stack.


So TLDR: nothing affecting you directly, but your unsolicited (and 
unrelated to this thread) disclosure made the aftertaste of the entire 
thing beyond unpleasant.



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Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[Colin Newell]

On 5 October 2016 at 09:07, David Golden  wrote:
> * DBIx::Class2 (DBIC2) – new feature development, with lower stability
> expectations
>

The idea of a new project with lower stability expectations worries
me.  The idea of backwards compatibility and stability have been a
major part of our continued use of the library.  Code I wrote >5 years
ago still works unchanged with no problem, and I would be loath to
lose that.

That's not to say that I have anything against the DBIC2 idea.  I just
want to be clear on what kind of stability/compatibility expectations
we would have.  I'm know David doesn't mean that it would become a hot
mess, but I'd rather not chip away at the stability expectations.

It's not like DBIC never introduced bugs with new versions, they were
simply fixed fairly quickly when they occurred.  Having a freeze and
then a split sounds okay, except that I normally associate that with a
different direction, which isn't something I'd greatly like to see.
If it's purely for non technical reasons then fair enough.


Colin.

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Re: [Dbix-class] A slightly more concrete proposal

[David Precious]

I haven't waded in on this so far, as I consider others with direct
involvement with the project to have far more weight in their opinions
on that matter, but just for the record:

On Tue, 4 Oct 2016 20:17:08 + Matt S Trout 
wrote:
> 1) I think at this point we should formalise a core team. The BDFL
> model was nice while it lasted, but I don't think it's tenable going
> forwards.
> 
> My first thought for composition would be a five-person team, and
> assuming everybody agrees to it,that being Ilmari, Castaway (Jess
> Robinson), Frew, myself, and whoever riba was planning to pass the
> first-come bits to.
>
> That seems like it should be a nice combination of continuity and
> ensuring that riba's fears we'll be insufficiently conservative being
> given a voice.

I support this.

In particular, I disagree with Riba's idea of removing all existing
co-maints (people who've been given co-maint precisely because they can
be trusted to act in the best interests of the project) and entirely
hand over the reins to an as-yet-unknown person.  Whilst I trust that
Riba would select someone appropriate for the role, I think DBIC is too
important to the Perl ecosystem to be solely controlled by one person.

Matt, you've put a lot of work into the project in the past, along with
a lot of guidance, and your focus on avoiding potential for data loss
is exactly what is needed, so I'd personally certainly want to see you
remain involved in the project as long as you're willing to be.

The others you named as potential core team members are all sensible
choices too, I think.

Also, since I'm posting my opinion, I'd just like to say to Riba,
whatever my opinion of your handover plans, a big thank you for all
your hard work on DBIx::Class - the community owes you gratitude.

Cheers

Dave P (BIGPRESH)


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Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[David Golden]

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 4:35 PM, Christian Walde 
wrote:

> [Peter] preparing [his] feature-frozen-bugfix-only release in a different
> namespace; mst's plan being used in the DBIx::Class namespace.
>

Speaking for myself (not for PAUSE admins), I think it's worth considering
the opposite as well:

* DBIx::Class (DBIC) – Peter's work provides a capstone, with only bug
fixes thereafter
* DBIx::Class2 (DBIC2) – new feature development, with lower stability
expectations

Some of the benefits I could see from this:

(1) It helps DBIC users avoid getting upgraded past a stability point
without having to learn to pin module versions or change application code
to use a different package name.  People have to positively opt-in for some
risk in exchange for new features by asking for DBIC2 explicitly.

(2) The relation between the two is more immediately obvious than between,
say, DBIx::Class::Stable and DBIx::Class.  It also seems more like one
project than two, particularly if both are under the same governance, use
the same mailing list, etc.

(3) It sets a possible path forward of DBIC2 evolving new features for a
while and then eventually moving into a bug-fix-only state while the next
generation of new features go into a future DBIC3.

There is some precedent for "Foo" evolution going to "Foo2" such as
Dancer/Dancer2, Test/Test2, and probably others.  Those have bigger
disruptions from old to new than I imagine DBIC2 having (initial release of
DBI2 probably being a carbon copy of the final version of DBIC), but at
least its a naming pattern that people will recognize.

Sincerely,
David

-- 
David Golden  Twitter/IRC/GitHub: @xdg
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Re: [Dbix-class] IMPORTANT: A discussion of DBIC governance and future development

[Peter Rabbitson]

This is not a response to the entirety of your email, but just one 
particular bit.


On 10/05/2016 05:24 AM, Karen Etheridge wrote:


3) Since I had contracted Peter (via my employer) for particular patches
last
year, I didn't want to say or do anything that would distract him or disrupt
that work, or become a conflict of interest with it; see also (2).


This was a really inappropriate piece of information to drop in a public 
forum for two reasons:


1) that work has not yet been completed
2) I have not actually billed your employer for anything

It is now much harder to advance either of these points.


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