Re: The tone of discussion on this list
Sam Hartman writes ("Re: The tone of discussion on this list"):
> I'd like to draw what I think is an important distinction:
Thanks for your intervention. I agree with your perspective.
Ian.
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
> "Ian" == Ian Jackson writes:
Ian> Alexander Wirt writes ("Re: The tone of discussion on this
Ian> list"):
>> I did not wanted to say its antisemetic, I wanted to say that we
>> don't want to see either antisemetic _or_ antiisrelism. In my
>> experience most discussions starting with antiisrealiasm will end
>> with being antisemetic.
Ian> I strongly disagree with the decision to ban "anti-israelism",
Ian> ie, criticism of Israel. The choice of Israel as a venue for
Ian> Debconf means that the question of the ethics or otherwise of
Ian> visiting Israel has been made on topic for this list.
I'd like to draw what I think is an important distinction:
Discussing the evaluation criteria for venue selection needs to be in
scope for our discussions.
Discussing specific venue selection decisions needs to be in scope for
our lists.
Discussing ethical problems that our participants have whith the
decisions of a particular government needs to be in scope to the extent
that it impacts venue selection.
Discussing feelings people have about venue choices or the criteria
needs to be in scope.
"I'm frustrated (or something much stronger) we are going to place X. I
don't feel safe there. I don't feel welcome because when I hear this
decision I don't feel that my safety is being valued; I don't feel that
Debian is welcoming to my race/culture/religion/whatever" are things we need to
be able to say.
The further it gets away from Debconf venue selection, the closer to
off-topic it gets for this list in my mind.
"I don't want us going to Israel because I think that by going there
we'd be supporting these practices" needs to be something we can say.
"Israel is bad" absent a clear connection to debconf venue selection is
off topic.
Yes, the connection might be obvious to you.
However actually taking the time to clearly link it back is something
that I believe makes messages easier to approach. So I'd ask you to
take that time.
And "Citizens of Israel are bad because ..." is something that I think
should be inappropriate in any Debian context.
I understand I'm not a listmaster, and this is an area where my only
power is to try and be reasonable and hope others agree with me.
I hope I've done that here and provided a balance that both the
listmasters and those who want to discuss Debconf 20 can live with.
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
Hi
On 2019/05/13 18:20, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Alexander Wirt writes ("Re: The tone of discussion on this list"):
>> I did not wanted to say its antisemetic, I wanted to say that we
>> don't want to see either antisemetic _or_ antiisrelism. In my
>> experience most discussions starting with antiisrealiasm will end
>> with being antisemetic.
>
> I strongly disagree with the decision to ban "anti-israelism", ie,
> criticism of Israel. The choice of Israel as a venue for Debconf
> means that the question of the ethics or otherwise of visiting Israel
> has been made on topic for this list.
>
> On the other hand, I strongly approve of firm and swift action against
> antisemitism.
The above is a response to a mail from more than a month and a half ago,
I invite everyone to not add more fuel to the flames and let it be.
-Jonathan
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
⠈⠳⣄ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
Alexander Wirt writes ("Re: The tone of discussion on this list"):
> I did not wanted to say its antisemetic, I wanted to say that we
> don't want to see either antisemetic _or_ antiisrelism. In my
> experience most discussions starting with antiisrealiasm will end
> with being antisemetic.
I strongly disagree with the decision to ban "anti-israelism", ie,
criticism of Israel. The choice of Israel as a venue for Debconf
means that the question of the ethics or otherwise of visiting Israel
has been made on topic for this list.
On the other hand, I strongly approve of firm and swift action against
antisemitism.
Ian.
--
Ian JacksonThese opinions are my own.
If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 08:57:27PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote: > Hi Steve, > > But as a fellow Debian Developer, I must object to the implication that > > this particular statement is antisemitic. It is not antisemitic to > > object to the policies of the Israeli government. It is not antisemitic > > to characterize the actions of the Israeli government as "murder", any > > more than it is to do so in regards to the actions of my own government. > > This is a problematic topic all around; please do not make it more > > problematic with unsubstantiated accusations of racism. > I did not wanted to say its antisemetic, I wanted to say that we don't > want to see either antisemetic _or_ antiisrelism. In my experience most > discussions starting with antiisrealiasm will end with being antisemetic. > Sorry for not being clear. I just wanted to draw a line for that > discussion that we shouldn't cross. Thank you for the clarification. I suspected this was your intention, but as it was open to interpretation, and because it IS a common pattern (outside of Debian) to accuse all critics of the Israeli government of antisemitism, I thought it was important to have this clear for the entire list. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
> > > ... > > > > From our policy: > > * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. > > Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not > > welcome. > > * Try not to flame; it is not polite. > > * Use common sense all the time. > > > > From the CoC: > > > > * Be respectful > > * Assume good faith > > > > ... > You can???t shutdown discussion just because you dislike it and have the > power to do so. Find a way to improve. Start with stopping on telling what is wrong. Regards Geert Stappers -- Leven en laten leven signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Steve Langasek wrote: Hi Steve, > On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 07:47:42PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote: > > > > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that > > > you're using? > > > No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if > > people think that sentences like: > > > "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for > > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. > > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and > > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." > > (Just one example). > > > are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start > > constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical > > group. But I don't want to see someone going that route. > > > So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that > > discussion now. > > I welcome the listmasters reminding us that we are a community and that the > tone of our discussions should correspond, and I acknowledge your statement > that the above message is not acceptable for this reason. > > But as a fellow Debian Developer, I must object to the implication that this > particular statement is antisemitic. It is not antisemitic to object to the > policies of the Israeli government. It is not antisemitic to characterize > the actions of the Israeli government as "murder", any more than it is to do > so in regards to the actions of my own government. > > This is a problematic topic all around; please do not make it more > problematic with unsubstantiated accusations of racism. I did not wanted to say its antisemetic, I wanted to say that we don't want to see either antisemetic _or_ antiisrelism. In my experience most discussions starting with antiisrealiasm will end with being antisemetic. Sorry for not being clear. I just wanted to draw a line for that discussion that we shouldn't cross. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
Hi Alexander, On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 07:47:42PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote: > > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that > > you're using? > No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if > people think that sentences like: > "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." > (Just one example). > are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start > constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical > group. But I don't want to see someone going that route. > So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that > discussion now. I welcome the listmasters reminding us that we are a community and that the tone of our discussions should correspond, and I acknowledge your statement that the above message is not acceptable for this reason. But as a fellow Debian Developer, I must object to the implication that this particular statement is antisemitic. It is not antisemitic to object to the policies of the Israeli government. It is not antisemitic to characterize the actions of the Israeli government as "murder", any more than it is to do so in regards to the actions of my own government. This is a problematic topic all around; please do not make it more problematic with unsubstantiated accusations of racism. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:10 PM, Alexander Wirt wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Nasir El-Amin wrote: > >> So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual >> statements about human rights violations in a country where the project has >> decided to whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity >> will be excluded is off limits? Because that’s what your quoted statement >> was addressing. > We can state historically factual statements for all over the world for > years, probably for every country where a debconf ever happened. But that > don't take us any further in that discussion. > >> >> I just want to be clear so others know they cannot publicly criticize the >> project for these reasons which are all factual. >> >> Also can you refer to any project policy or rule that’s documented publicly >> that prohibits this? You state that such is not allowed is that a rule you >> made up on the fly or is it documented somewhere? > > From our policy: > * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. > Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not > welcome. > * Try not to flame; it is not polite. > * Use common sense all the time. > > From the CoC: > > * Be respectful > * Assume good faith > > Alex 1. Debconf focuses on discussion around the Debconf event. 2. The bid and discussion for this specific Debconf was done behind closed doors which departs from the Social Contract which says things will be done in the open. 3. The issues I raise are not flaming it’s abusive for you to falsely conflate that criticism of our project holding an event in a place where Muslims and people of Middle Eastern descent would be excluded and if they some how could enter Israel would feel unsafe and uncomfortable due to genocide and fascism. 4. None of those who have replied have assumed good faith and neither have you. As a user of Debian and contributor I have as much right as anyone else to be critical of the project. 5. It is now very evident your trying to misinterpret the social contract and code of conduct and what’s been said in order to censor entirely valid and permitted discussion. I say to you Alex and the other list maintainer who threatened to ban me that your abusing your powers here and what I have said does not violate the code of conduct or social contract. If anything your failure to assume good faith is in violation of the code of conduct of this project and your threats to ban and censor are also violations possibly warranting action by the DPL. You can’t shutdown discussion just because you dislike it and have the power to do so.
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Nasir El-Amin wrote: > So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual > statements about human rights violations in a country where the project has > decided to whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity > will be excluded is off limits? Because that’s what your quoted statement was > addressing. We can state historically factual statements for all over the world for years, probably for every country where a debconf ever happened. But that don't take us any further in that discussion. > > I just want to be clear so others know they cannot publicly criticize the > project for these reasons which are all factual. > > Also can you refer to any project policy or rule that’s documented publicly > that prohibits this? You state that such is not allowed is that a rule you > made up on the fly or is it documented somewhere? From our policy: * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not welcome. * Try not to flame; it is not polite. * Use common sense all the time. From the CoC: * Be respectful * Assume good faith Alex
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
I appreciate the reply, but apologize but I'm still confused, and I think the lack of a definition is a cop-out and I find it ironic that someone who has the ability to moderate discussion cannot even define the rubric they are using to do so! > Israel has been murdering Muslims for > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land Amin is indeed being slightly graphic but this is a factually true statement: * Palestinians (who are mostly muslims) are killed nearly daily: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties, and by international law * Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements Do you take issue with him using the word "murder" rather than "kill" or "shoot"? Do we have guidelines to know what is the appropriate terminology? It's unfortunate that we need to have these conversations, but when people's lives and families 'dying' (to use the least inflammatory word possible), how do you expect people to reply? > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." This is merely Amin expressing his view of the situation. - Ghassan Kanafani Debian Contributor ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 21, 2019 2:47 PM, Alexander Wirt wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that > > you're using? > > No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if > people think that sentences like: > > "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." > (Just one example). > > are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start > constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical > group. But I don't want to see someone going that route. > > So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that discussion > now. > > Alex
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual statements about human rights violations in a country where the project has decided to whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity will be excluded is off limits? Because that’s what your quoted statement was addressing. I just want to be clear so others know they cannot publicly criticize the project for these reasons which are all factual. Also can you refer to any project policy or rule that’s documented publicly that prohibits this? You state that such is not allowed is that a rule you made up on the fly or is it documented somewhere? On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:47 AM, Alexander Wirt wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote: > >> Hi Alex, >> >> Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that >> you're using? > No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if > people think that sentences like: > > "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." > (Just one example). > > are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start > constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical > group. But I don't want to see someone going that route. > > So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that discussion > now. > > Alex
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that > you're using? No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if people think that sentences like: "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable." (Just one example). are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical group. But I don't want to see someone going that route. So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that discussion now. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
Hi Alex, Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that you're using? Too often the excuse of anti-semitism is used as a smokescreen to avoid criticism of the Israeli government and their policies. (See the many thinkpieces written about Ilhan Omar in the USA) I have no issue with Jewish people, and it may surprise you that Arab and other muslims in the middle east are also semitic people. I hope other people can think about this good quote: "True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice." - MLK Jr. - Ghassan Kanafani Debian Contributor ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, March 21, 2019 2:27 PM, Alexander Wirt wrote: > Hi, > > this is a warning and note from us listmasters. Please come back to a > civilized discussion style. I don't want to see any antisemitism or > antisrealism on that list. Either you have something substantial to add to > the debconf discussion or please don't take part in that discussion. > Otherwise listmaster will have to honor that behaviour. > > Alex - Debian Listmaster
Re: The tone of discussion on this list
Why do we have a code of conduct if list maintainers are going to depart from it and make their own rules? You’ve have not assumed good faith and your not allowing open discussion. https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct Bringing up concerns of Debian Project having an event in a place that excludes people based on faith, nationality and ethnicity is not a bad thing. People have falsely conflated that criticizing human rights violations of Israel is anti-semitism this is entirely false. Your shutting down an entire discussion because some very vocal people have opposed criticism is Israel. You are supporting others speech and beliefs over the speech and beliefs of others. There has been no anti-semitism only anti-fascism. On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:27 AM, Alexander Wirt wrote: > Hi, > > this is a warning and note from us listmasters. Please come back to a > civilized discussion style. I don't want to see any antisemitism or > antisrealism on that list. Either you have something substantial to add to > the _debconf_ discussion or please don't take part in that discussion. > Otherwise listmaster will have to honor that behaviour. > > Alex - Debian Listmaster
