Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Hi,

Le 10/11/2019 à 09:46, Devin Prater a écrit :
Thank you for your fair, calm message. Yes, Linux accessibility is at a 
crisis point, but we do have four years to change this, even make things 
better than they have ever been. Now, that doesn’t mean we should just 


Exactly.



wait until three years have passed, then jump to action, but we don’t 
have to worry that Linux won’t stop working in a month or so unless we 
find each GTK developer and personally go all “how dare you!” On them 
and demand things. While I do still think that Linux developers, like 
all large companies, need accountability, we can at least leave a “paper 
trail” as it were, on Github.


You are completely right.



Some one correct me if I’m wrong, but all states of an issue are logged, 
all comments kept, and these cannot be deleted from a Github project, 
unless that project is deleted. So, we can ask, in a calm, informative 
way, that, for example, the Gnome Dash be fixed, so that it reports more 
than just “window” when entered, or that the Mate menu, I assume that’s 
what’s being used on F123 for graphical menus, be fixed so that Orca 
will report when one has entered into that menu. Give developers links 
to ATK documentation, Orca documentation, then, importantly, post the 
link to that issue to a list, like the Orca list, or the 
Linux-accessibility list if there is one, or the IRC #accessibility 
channel for those who have those bounce things that let them stay online 
all the time. Developers then can work on that issue, giving comments, 
dialoging with the community, following and commenting on the thread 
themselves, letting the developer know that this is something that will 
help. Or, they can close the thread, letting us know that accessibility 
isn’t important to that area of Linux if another developer doesn’t open 
it again. Then, we go on Twitter, Facebook, Mastodon, IRC, Email, 
contact the FSF and such, pound the message into stone if that makes a 
difference, that accessibility matters, and volunteers must be held 
accountable in order to make Linux free for all, not just free for those 
who have eyes that are operational, with all their circuits functioning 
perfectly. I think we’ll have to change the Linux accessibility 
landscape one Github or Gitlab issue at a time. And yes, there will be 
failings. There will be times when we’ll all have to shout “Shame! 
Shame! Shame!” At a developer for failing our community. But, as the 
failing of Linux, Antergos Sonar, and Coconut Linux has shown, we can’t 
do this on our own, and we cannot let developers expect that we can just 
make our own distributions. I’d love it if we could, really. Sonar was 
amazing. But it failed, so we have to try to raise awareness however we 
can, not just on Forums for distress, but on Github issues, where 
developers /cannot/ ignore it. And, if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, 


Many thanks for all this, that is exactly what I have tried to carry out 
for years a a message. That is also why I think Debian is the good 
distro for accessibility: while we work on upstream - Sid / testing, 
end-users are quite on stable. That is why we have time, indeed, thanks 
to this long dev cycle, among other things. Advanced users may use 
backports. Power users may be on testing to help during 2 dev years.


When you report bugs, dont hesitate to say it here. We will be able to 
follow and support you.
Just be careful about one thing: MATE is a fork of Gnome, Gnome might 
not like them very much I guess. So do not mix them when reporting. Also 
because MATE probably has different problems, as rely on GTK3, not 
Wayland yet, etc. BTW, dont hesitate to open a thread here about Mate, 
to make us identify the problem. I am not aware of Mate problems so far 
here.


put an issue on Orca, and loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch 
them point fingers. Then, if it’s not resolved, post it to the world, 
paint the picture of how there just isn’t any resolution in free software.


Indeed we need advertisment, noise from the community, if bugs are not 
handled or closed. But always calm, constructive, to generte positive 
behaviors.


Best regards



Also, there is the “bug bounty” system that some open source projects 
do, like Libretro, of Retroarch. If people cannot do Accessibility 
because of the inherent value of humans with disabilities, offer them 
money. Yes, it’s not the best for the free software facade of being 
“above all that”, but it works sometimes, and it is needed sometimes.


On Nov 9, 2019, at 12:44 AM, Vojtěch Šmiro > wrote:


Hello.


Hypra is great, I have it from May this year and it is super. It isn't 
good to fight together what is better than something. Every system is 
good for some actions, some is accessible, some is more or less 
accessible. Anyway, this is Debian list and here we would solve Debian 
problems, not fight what is better or worse. Linux accessibility is in 
bad crisis. If we 

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

This is very good. A roadmap will keep them accountable. Thank you so much for 
your work.

> On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:29 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 10/11/2019 à 15:23, Devin Prater a écrit :
>> Yes, this is true. I forget that she is the only active developer of Orca, 
>> sorry. I simply want the developer of Orca to be talking with the people 
>> that point fingers at Orca as the problem because Obviously, screen 
>> readers are magic and can do things for blind people that transcend the GUI 
>> or something.
> 
> That is what we will do on February. Joanie cannot do this alone. She has 
> been fighting with this people for a long, now we need to help her. On 
> February, we will meet GTK and Gnome guys for this. I hope we will be as 
> constructive as possible, with end-user point of view, technical point of 
> view, funding point of view, meeting foundation, devs, power users, advanced 
> ones, companies. It needs to result a roadmap, a better understanding of the 
> accessibility matter, etc
> 
> Regards
> 
> Best regards,
> 
>>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 5:40 AM, Samuel Thibault  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:
 Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
> if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
> loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.
 
 I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.
>>> 
>>> (I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
>>> things to handle in Orca itself)
>>> 
>>> Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Le 10/11/2019 à 15:23, Devin Prater a écrit :

Yes, this is true. I forget that she is the only active developer of Orca, sorry. I simply 
want the developer of Orca to be talking with the people that point fingers at Orca as the 
problem because Obviously, screen readers are magic and can do things for 
blind people that transcend the GUI or something.


That is what we will do on February. Joanie cannot do this alone. She 
has been fighting with this people for a long, now we need to help her. 
On February, we will meet GTK and Gnome guys for this. I hope we will be 
as constructive as possible, with end-user point of view, technical 
point of view, funding point of view, meeting foundation, devs, power 
users, advanced ones, companies. It needs to result a roadmap, a better 
understanding of the accessibility matter, etc


Regards

Best regards,




On Nov 10, 2019, at 5:40 AM, Samuel Thibault  wrote:

Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:

Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:

if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.


I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.


(I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
things to handle in Orca itself)

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

Yes, this is true. I forget that she is the only active developer of Orca, 
sorry. I simply want the developer of Orca to be talking with the people that 
point fingers at Orca as the problem because Obviously, screen readers 
are magic and can do things for blind people that transcend the GUI or 
something.

> On Nov 10, 2019, at 5:40 AM, Samuel Thibault  wrote:
> 
> Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:
>> Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
>>> if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
>>> loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.
>> 
>> I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.
> 
> (I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
> things to handle in Orca itself)
> 
> Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Samuel Thibault]

Samuel Thibault, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 12:33:17 +0100, a ecrit:
> Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
> > if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
> > loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.
> 
> I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.

(I meant make her have to handle that, i.e. she already has plenty of
things to handle in Orca itself)

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Alex ARNAUD, le ven. 08 nov. 2019 09:29:21 +0100, a ecrit:
> To be fully clear: There is no risk to see something changes on your 
> experience
> until approximately 4 years.

Possibly a bit longer. It took a lot of time for applications to migrate
from gtk2 to gtk3. Migrating to gtk4 will probably also take some time.

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Samuel Thibault]

Devin Prater, le dim. 10 nov. 2019 02:46:51 -0600, a ecrit:
> if GTK4 folks say it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and
> loop them all in, grab some popcorn, and watch them point fingers.

I don't think we want to make Joanmarie handle that.

Samuel

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

Thank you for your fair, calm message. Yes, Linux accessibility is at a crisis 
point, but we do have four years to change this, even make things better than 
they have ever been. Now, that doesn’t mean we should just wait until three 
years have passed, then jump to action, but we don’t have to worry that Linux 
won’t stop working in a month or so unless we find each GTK developer and 
personally go all “how dare you!” On them and demand things. While I do still 
think that Linux developers, like all large companies, need accountability, we 
can at least leave a “paper trail” as it were, on Github.

Some one correct me if I’m wrong, but all states of an issue are logged, all 
comments kept, and these cannot be deleted from a Github project, unless that 
project is deleted. So, we can ask, in a calm, informative way, that, for 
example, the Gnome Dash be fixed, so that it reports more than just “window” 
when entered, or that the Mate menu, I assume that’s what’s being used on F123 
for graphical menus, be fixed so that Orca will report when one has entered 
into that menu. Give developers links to ATK documentation, Orca documentation, 
then, importantly, post the link to that issue to a list, like the Orca list, 
or the Linux-accessibility list if there is one, or the IRC #accessibility 
channel for those who have those bounce things that let them stay online all 
the time. Developers then can work on that issue, giving comments, dialoging 
with the community, following and commenting on the thread themselves, letting 
the developer know that this is something that will help. Or, they can close 
the thread, letting us know that accessibility isn’t important to that area of 
Linux if another developer doesn’t open it again. Then, we go on Twitter, 
Facebook, Mastodon, IRC, Email, contact the FSF and such, pound the message 
into stone if that makes a difference, that accessibility matters, and 
volunteers must be held accountable in order to make Linux free for all, not 
just free for those who have eyes that are operational, with all their circuits 
functioning perfectly. I think we’ll have to change the Linux accessibility 
landscape one Github or Gitlab issue at a time. And yes, there will be 
failings. There will be times when we’ll all have to shout “Shame! Shame! 
Shame!” At a developer for failing our community. But, as the failing of Linux, 
Antergos Sonar, and Coconut Linux has shown, we can’t do this on our own, and 
we cannot let developers expect that we can just make our own distributions. 
I’d love it if we could, really. Sonar was amazing. But it failed, so we have 
to try to raise awareness however we can, not just on Forums for distress, but 
on Github issues, where developers cannot ignore it. And, if GTK4 folks say 
it’s Orca’s fault, put an issue on Orca, and loop them all in, grab some 
popcorn, and watch them point fingers. Then, if it’s not resolved, post it to 
the world, paint the picture of how there just isn’t any resolution in free 
software.

Also, there is the “bug bounty” system that some open source projects do, like 
Libretro, of Retroarch. If people cannot do Accessibility because of the 
inherent value of humans with disabilities, offer them money. Yes, it’s not the 
best for the free software facade of being “above all that”, but it works 
sometimes, and it is needed sometimes.

> On Nov 9, 2019, at 12:44 AM, Vojtěch Šmiro  wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> 
> 
> Hypra is great, I have it from May this year and it is super. It isn't good 
> to fight together what is better than something. Every system is good for 
> some actions, some is accessible, some is more or less accessible. Anyway, 
> this is Debian list and here we would solve Debian problems, not fight what 
> is better or worse. Linux accessibility is in bad crisis. If we don't become 
> united, linux accessibility will end and many people, who aren't rich won't 
> have any computer. Anybody can't have Mac. Mac cannot be legally installed on 
> another computers than Apple computers.
> 
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 
> Vojta.
> 
> 
> 
> Dne 08. 11. 19 v 18:15 Jean-Philippe MENGUAL napsal(a):
>>> 
>>> Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it is
>>> acceptable to use your debian.org e-mail to promote your work place.
>> 
>> This work place works for Debian. So I dont see the problem. It works 
>> not-paid by Debian for Debian, so my job is a volunteer action for Debian. 
>> Thanks to Hypra, more than 500 new users use Debian. So yes, I created a 
>> project where I tried to fund a fulltime team to improve Debian, upstream 
>> and downstream, accessibility. I mix economical action and ethical action.
>> 
>> Note that Debian developers can request for a certificate to show they are 
>> dev, there is not reason then to separate artificially 2 areas if they are 
>> so joint.
>> 
>>> 
>>> Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or
>>> promotional e-mails.
>> 
>> Remove these about Mac 

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[mattias jonsson]

say this to devin prater. he glorify mac.


Den 9 november 2019 07:58:53 skrev Vojtěch Šmiro :


Hello.


Hypra is great, I have it from May this year and it is super. It isn't
good to fight together what is better than something. Every system is
good for some actions, some is accessible, some is more or less
accessible. Anyway, this is Debian list and here we would solve Debian
problems, not fight what is better or worse. Linux accessibility is in
bad crisis. If we don't become united, linux accessibility will end and
many people, who aren't rich won't have any computer. Anybody can't have
Mac. Mac cannot be legally installed on another computers than Apple
computers.


Best regards


Vojta.



Dne 08. 11. 19 v 18:15 Jean-Philippe MENGUAL napsal(a):


Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it is
acceptable to use your debian.org e-mail to promote your work place.


This work place works for Debian. So I dont see the problem. It works
not-paid by Debian for Debian, so my job is a volunteer action for
Debian. Thanks to Hypra, more than 500 new users use Debian. So yes, I
created a project where I tried to fund a fulltime team to improve
Debian, upstream and downstream, accessibility. I mix economical
action and ethical action.

Note that Debian developers can request for a certificate to show they
are dev, there is not reason then to separate artificially 2 areas if
they are so joint.



Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or
promotional e-mails.


Remove these about Mac and I will remove them. There is no reason to
read "thanks to inform about Mac" and "Please dont talk here about
Debian projects if they are supported by companies".

Regards



--
John Doe

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Vojtěch Šmiro]

Hello.


Hypra is great, I have it from May this year and it is super. It isn't 
good to fight together what is better than something. Every system is 
good for some actions, some is accessible, some is more or less 
accessible. Anyway, this is Debian list and here we would solve Debian 
problems, not fight what is better or worse. Linux accessibility is in 
bad crisis. If we don't become united, linux accessibility will end and 
many people, who aren't rich won't have any computer. Anybody can't have 
Mac. Mac cannot be legally installed on another computers than Apple 
computers.



Best regards


Vojta.



Dne 08. 11. 19 v 18:15 Jean-Philippe MENGUAL napsal(a):


Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it is
acceptable to use your debian.org e-mail to promote your work place.


This work place works for Debian. So I dont see the problem. It works 
not-paid by Debian for Debian, so my job is a volunteer action for 
Debian. Thanks to Hypra, more than 500 new users use Debian. So yes, I 
created a project where I tried to fund a fulltime team to improve 
Debian, upstream and downstream, accessibility. I mix economical 
action and ethical action.


Note that Debian developers can request for a certificate to show they 
are dev, there is not reason then to separate artificially 2 areas if 
they are so joint.




Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or
promotional e-mails.


Remove these about Mac and I will remove them. There is no reason to 
read "thanks to inform about Mac" and "Please dont talk here about 
Debian projects if they are supported by companies".


Regards



--
John Doe

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Fernando Botelho]

I think it is perfectly reasonable to talk about Hypra, as they support 
Debian with testing, with code, and with feedback. Even more so, their 
contributions also benefit other distros, just like work done in other 
groups benefit Debian.



it is a little less obvious that we should allow talking about Apple, 
but even then I say that we should. Informed arguments will only enrich 
this exchange.  We should all be well-informed of what is available from 
Apple, from Hypra, etc. It is only with good quality discussion and 
information that we can make educated choices and can fix whatever is 
still missing in the free and open source world.



Fernando


On 11/8/19 2:15 PM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:


Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it is
acceptable to use your debian.org e-mail to promote your work place.


This work place works for Debian. So I dont see the problem. It works 
not-paid by Debian for Debian, so my job is a volunteer action for 
Debian. Thanks to Hypra, more than 500 new users use Debian. So yes, I 
created a project where I tried to fund a fulltime team to improve 
Debian, upstream and downstream, accessibility. I mix economical 
action and ethical action.


Note that Debian developers can request for a certificate to show they 
are dev, there is not reason then to separate artificially 2 areas if 
they are so joint.




Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or
promotional e-mails.


Remove these about Mac and I will remove them. There is no reason to 
read "thanks to inform about Mac" and "Please dont talk here about 
Debian projects if they are supported by companies".


Regards



--
John Doe

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it is
acceptable to use your debian.org e-mail to promote your work place.


This work place works for Debian. So I dont see the problem. It works 
not-paid by Debian for Debian, so my job is a volunteer action for 
Debian. Thanks to Hypra, more than 500 new users use Debian. So yes, I 
created a project where I tried to fund a fulltime team to improve 
Debian, upstream and downstream, accessibility. I mix economical action 
and ethical action.


Note that Debian developers can request for a certificate to show they 
are dev, there is not reason then to separate artificially 2 areas if 
they are so joint.




Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or
promotional e-mails.


Remove these about Mac and I will remove them. There is no reason to 
read "thanks to inform about Mac" and "Please dont talk here about 
Debian projects if they are supported by companies".


Regards



--
John Doe

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[john doe]

On 11/8/2019 5:42 PM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
> http://hypra.fr
>
> English release not completely up-to-date, but the most important is here.
>
>
> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
>
> Le 08/11/2019 à 17:39, mattias a écrit :
>> website?
>>
>> On 2019-11-08 17:29, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
>>> A company who sells computers with Debian, from a universality access
>>> point of view. It means: not needed to use commandlinie (but
>>> possible) MATE desktop, Orca with as nice as possible voice according
>>> to the language, Iris OCR to read paper documents, Compiz for visual
>>> settings if the person needs negative or color filter or
>>> magnification or whatever, etc.
>>>
>>> All they provide is with 12 support hours (among 5 hours training, 3
>>> pure support hours and initial customizations, help to import data,
>>> mail accounts, help to set the initial voice parameters, braille, etc).
>>>
>>> Any dev are free, as much as possible in upstream projects (Mate,
>>> Mozilla, Compiz, GTK/Qt/Muter, etc).
>>>
>>> Another plan exists with: 89E/month subscription, 399 security
>>> deposit, 199 setup, and you have a computer, support, training,
>>> unlimited and without minimum duration of subscription. Always rely
>>> on Debian. Free updates.
>>>
>>> The purpose: making everybody access to the computer, and making
>>> disable people the most standalone possible via a good computer usage
>>> without technical skills (but opened for those who have them).
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
>>> Le 08/11/2019 à 17:14, mattias a écrit :
 what is hypra?

 On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:
> Hi Devin,
>
> Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:
>
> > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run
> free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you
> use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
> 
>
> Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.
>
> > It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,
> Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking,
> autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation,
> all configurable, throughout the system, not just in > your word
> processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>
> Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all
> right. And all the Debian catalog.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion
> point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the
> arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are
> usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the
> releases are often much better than the public beta versions.
>
> > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to
> see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not
> held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if
> all we have left in Linux is the command line.
>
> What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you
> aware of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn
> yourself, hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible
> accesories, try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said
> one of their community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an
> out-of-the-box accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay
> accessible through updates, free updates, persons you can talk to,
> in order to request for things and getting support and training,
> fund the free software dev to avoid such dark future as described
> on the thread. You can connect most accessories (even Apple ones
> despite many complexities).
> In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac
> whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible,
> warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties,
> hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free
> software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of
> paying for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.
>
> Regards
>

>>>
>>
>

Assuming that you still work at Hypra, I don't think that it is
acceptable to use your debian.org e-mail to promote your work place.

Clearly, those e-mail should be removed because they fall under spam or
promotional e-mails.

--
John Doe

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

http://hypra.fr

English release not completely up-to-date, but the most important is here.


Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

Le 08/11/2019 à 17:39, mattias a écrit :

website?

On 2019-11-08 17:29, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
A company who sells computers with Debian, from a universality access 
point of view. It means: not needed to use commandlinie (but 
possible) MATE desktop, Orca with as nice as possible voice according 
to the language, Iris OCR to read paper documents, Compiz for visual 
settings if the person needs negative or color filter or 
magnification or whatever, etc.


All they provide is with 12 support hours (among 5 hours training, 3 
pure support hours and initial customizations, help to import data, 
mail accounts, help to set the initial voice parameters, braille, etc).


Any dev are free, as much as possible in upstream projects (Mate, 
Mozilla, Compiz, GTK/Qt/Muter, etc).


Another plan exists with: 89E/month subscription, 399 security 
deposit, 199 setup, and you have a computer, support, training, 
unlimited and without minimum duration of subscription. Always rely 
on Debian. Free updates.


The purpose: making everybody access to the computer, and making 
disable people the most standalone possible via a good computer usage 
without technical skills (but opened for those who have them).


Regards





Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 08/11/2019 à 17:14, mattias a écrit :

what is hypra?

On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

Hi Devin,

Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:

> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run 
free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you 
use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 



Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.

> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done 
well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, 
Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, 
autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, 
all configurable, throughout the system, not just in > your word 
processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.


Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all 
right. And all the Debian catalog.






> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion 
point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the 
arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are 
usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the 
releases are often much better than the public beta versions.


> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to 
see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not 
held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if 
all we have left in Linux is the command line.


What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you 
aware of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn 
yourself, hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible 
accesories, try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said 
one of their community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an 
out-of-the-box accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay 
accessible through updates, free updates, persons you can talk to, 
in order to request for things and getting support and training, 
fund the free software dev to avoid such dark future as described 
on the thread. You can connect most accessories (even Apple ones 
despite many complexities).
In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac 
whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible, 
warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties, 
hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free 
software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of 
paying for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.


Regards

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[mattias]

website?

On 2019-11-08 17:29, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
A company who sells computers with Debian, from a universality access 
point of view. It means: not needed to use commandlinie (but possible) 
MATE desktop, Orca with as nice as possible voice according to the 
language, Iris OCR to read paper documents, Compiz for visual settings 
if the person needs negative or color filter or magnification or 
whatever, etc.


All they provide is with 12 support hours (among 5 hours training, 3 
pure support hours and initial customizations, help to import data, 
mail accounts, help to set the initial voice parameters, braille, etc).


Any dev are free, as much as possible in upstream projects (Mate, 
Mozilla, Compiz, GTK/Qt/Muter, etc).


Another plan exists with: 89E/month subscription, 399 security 
deposit, 199 setup, and you have a computer, support, training, 
unlimited and without minimum duration of subscription. Always rely on 
Debian. Free updates.


The purpose: making everybody access to the computer, and making 
disable people the most standalone possible via a good computer usage 
without technical skills (but opened for those who have them).


Regards





Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 08/11/2019 à 17:14, mattias a écrit :

what is hypra?

On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

Hi Devin,

Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:

> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run 
free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use 
the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 



Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.

> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done 
well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, 
Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, 
autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, 
all configurable, throughout the system, not just in > your word 
processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.


Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all 
right. And all the Debian catalog.






> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion 
point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the 
arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are 
usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases 
are often much better than the public beta versions.


> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to 
see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not 
held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all 
we have left in Linux is the command line.


What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you 
aware of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn 
yourself, hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible 
accesories, try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one 
of their community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an 
out-of-the-box accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible 
through updates, free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to 
request for things and getting support and training, fund the free 
software dev to avoid such dark future as described on the thread. 
You can connect most accessories (even Apple ones despite many 
complexities).
In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac 
whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible, 
warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties, 
hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free 
software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying 
for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.


Regards

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

A company who sells computers with Debian, from a universality access 
point of view. It means: not needed to use commandlinie (but possible) 
MATE desktop, Orca with as nice as possible voice according to the 
language, Iris OCR to read paper documents, Compiz for visual settings 
if the person needs negative or color filter or magnification or 
whatever, etc.


All they provide is with 12 support hours (among 5 hours training, 3 
pure support hours and initial customizations, help to import data, mail 
accounts, help to set the initial voice parameters, braille, etc).


Any dev are free, as much as possible in upstream projects (Mate, 
Mozilla, Compiz, GTK/Qt/Muter, etc).


Another plan exists with: 89E/month subscription, 399 security deposit, 
199 setup, and you have a computer, support, training, unlimited and 
without minimum duration of subscription. Always rely on Debian. Free 
updates.


The purpose: making everybody access to the computer, and making disable 
people the most standalone possible via a good computer usage without 
technical skills (but opened for those who have them).


Regards





Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 08/11/2019 à 17:14, mattias a écrit :

what is hypra?

On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

Hi Devin,

Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:

> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run 
free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use 
the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 



Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.

> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done 
well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, 
Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, 
text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, 
throughout the system, not just in > your word processor, all 
accessible with VoiceOver.


Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all 
right. And all the Debian catalog.






> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion 
point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow 
keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually 
fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often 
much better than the public beta versions.


> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to 
see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held 
to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we 
have left in Linux is the command line.


What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware 
of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself, 
hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories, 
try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one of their 
community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box 
accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible through updates, 
free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to request for things 
and getting support and training, fund the free software dev to avoid 
such dark future as described on the thread. You can connect most 
accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac 
whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible, 
warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties, 
hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free 
software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying 
for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.


Regards

Re: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jude DaShiell]

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 11:10:53
> From: MENGUAL Jean-Philippe 
> To: debian-accessibility@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian
> Resent-Date: Fri,  8 Nov 2019 16:11:09 + (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-accessibility@lists.debian.org
>
> Hi Devin,
>
> Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:
>
> > I would definitely recommend the Mac. You?ll still be able to run
> free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use the
> command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>
> Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.
>
> > It isn?t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done
> well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail,
> text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text
> replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout
> the system, not just in > your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>
> Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all right. And
> all the Debian catalog.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear ?insertion
> point at (nil)? at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys,
> and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the
> year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the
> public beta versions.
>
> > I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I?d hate to see
> free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a
> standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in
> Linux is the command line.
>
> What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware of
> this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself, hope there
> are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories, try reporting but
> Apple does not listen always (said one of their community leader). Buy Hypra
> about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box accessible Debian, a warranty it will
> stay accessible through updates, free updates, persons you can talk to, in
> order to request for things and getting support and training, fund the free
> software dev to avoid such dark future as described on the thread. You can
> connect most accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
> In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac whereas you
> can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible, warranty and with human
> support? So far there were few warranties, hence people going to typical
> computers, now there is, so free software supporters should pay to fund this
> effort instead of paying for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs'
> death.
>
> Regards
>
The problem with mac for most accessibility users is that our demographics
rarely include large enough bank accounts to support the Apple hardware
obsolescence cycle.  I once got by means of a donation the most expensive
computer Apple ever produced up to 2012 and that cost the original owner
$10,000.00.  The operating system could not be upgraded due to the Apple
obsolescence cycle and in these days with all of the cyber attacks that's
serious since once hackers find your system they can either exploit it and
your identity and bank account or practice on it to learn how to take down
other apple operating systems.  I got another surprise with the first mac
mini I bought too.  I bought that mac mini when Apple came out with newer
hardware for that line.  Unfortunately the sales lady failed to tell me I
would be getting the obsolete hardware and charged me full price for that
too.  No discount.  So I was able to upgrade to Leopard but couldn't
upgrade to Lion and in the hands of an Apple certified technician my
machine got struck by lightning.  >

-- 

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[mattias]

what is hypra?

On 2019-11-08 17:10, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

Hi Devin,

Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:

> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run 
free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use 
the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 



Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.

> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done 
well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, 
Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, 
text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, 
throughout the system, not just in > your word processor, all 
accessible with VoiceOver.


Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all 
right. And all the Debian catalog.






> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion 
point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow 
keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually 
fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often 
much better than the public beta versions.


> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to 
see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held 
to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we 
have left in Linux is the command line.


What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware 
of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself, 
hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories, 
try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one of their 
community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box 
accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible through updates, 
free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to request for things 
and getting support and training, fund the free software dev to avoid 
such dark future as described on the thread. You can connect most 
accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac 
whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible, 
warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties, 
hence people going to typical computers, now there is, so free 
software supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying 
for Apple, whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.


Regards

Re: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[MENGUAL Jean-Philippe]

Hi Devin,

Sorry for advertisment in advance, but:

> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run 
free software, in an environment like > Unix. Optionally, if you use the 
command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 



Hypra machines do this too. And will always do.

> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done 
well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, 
Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, 
text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, 
throughout the system, not just in > your word processor, all accessible 
with VoiceOver.


Hypra has Firefox, Thunderbird, pluma, Libreoffice, accessible all 
right. And all the Debian catalog.






> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion 
point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow 
keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually 
fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often 
much better than the public beta versions.


> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see 
free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a 
standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left 
in Linux is the command line.


What I mean here is not doiing free advertisment, but making you aware 
of this: buy Mac, pay about 1000 euros or much more, learn yourself, 
hope there are not regressions, use only Apple compatible accesories, 
try reporting but Apple does not listen always (said one of their 
community leader). Buy Hypra about 2000 euros, get an out-of-the-box 
accessible Debian, a warranty it will stay accessible through updates, 
free updates, persons you can talk to, in order to request for things 
and getting support and training, fund the free software dev to avoid 
such dark future as described on the thread. You can connect most 
accessories (even Apple ones despite many complexities).
In other words, if you use free software, why changing it for Mac 
whereas you can pay nearly the same for a full Linux accessible, 
warranty and with human support? So far there were few warranties, hence 
people going to typical computers, now there is, so free software 
supporters should pay to fund this effort instead of paying for Apple, 
whose effort is not the same after Jobs' death.


Regards

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

Thanks so much for this information. I did have the impression that volunteers 
work on this, I should have done more research. Also, thanks Jean-Philippe for 
the much easier ways of contributing to all this than the knee-jerk reaction of 
some people of “Well if you don’t like it then make it yourself and stop 
complaining because Linux is good the way it is,” sort of thing. I’ve already 
submitted issues to Github projects, mostly emulators because game 
accessibility is important to me, but yes, accessibility to a whole operating 
system is quite a bit more so, and activism of this type sometimes does work 
out well. At the very least, developers see this, it is an open issue that they 
can’t easily ignore unless they close it—and even then it is still there so one 
could reference it on conversations—and at most issues get fixed, or features 
are implemented.

> On Nov 8, 2019, at 6:15 AM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 3:21 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
>> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free 
>> software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command 
>> line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
>> 
>> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. 
>> Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, 
>> text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text 
>> replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout 
>> the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>> 
>> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at 
>> (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not 
>> VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year 
>> of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public 
>> beta versions.
>> 
>> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free 
>> software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard 
>> of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is 
>> the command line.
> 
> This is all helpful information. I did some research after I wrote this and 
> found that these are not volunteers at all. All pushing against our patches 
> are individuals working for IBM to ship a commercial Linux desktop and are 
> actually being paid by them to work on these things. I think it is honestly 
> quite shameful to see representatives of such a prominant tech company behave 
> in this way. If it were just ignoring patches it would be one thing, however, 
> many of these individuals are also actually fighting against the patches and 
> making discriminatory comments along the way. You have small groups of 
> individuals (Hypra and Igalia) who have 0 the budgets of IBM when rounding to 
> integers trying to improve things, yet IBM are impeding progress. Also, 
> completely volunteer groups of individuals like Debian manage to ship an 
> accessible desktop, yet IBM can't be bothered to do the same and have now 
> gone a step further by attacking those who try to do so. It all just sounds 
> really screwed up to me. These people come from places with oodles of money 
> and tell us we need a new way of doing things yet they won't pony up the 
> money to accomplish anything that they ask for.
>>> On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts 
>>> around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it 
>>> all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we 
>>> will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue 
>>> seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a 
>>> broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping 
>>> could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to 
>>> understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at 
>>> least lets me use the computer.
>>> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely 
>>> on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest 
>>> as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be 
>>> removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option 
>>> than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the 
>>> future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely 
>>> which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end 
>>> is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac as soon as possible since I 
>>> will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and 
>>> would like as smooth a transition as possible.
>>> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I 
>>> ultimately 

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Hi,

Frankly I think these companies (IBM, Redhat) dont completely focus on 
desktop. I dont know who they sell this to. I think their main business 
is servers. So I am not so surprised, even if it is sad, they dont invest.


However I keep hope: during the next hackfest, we will discuss what is 
needed to make things work, where and how. It is possible we reach an 
agreement about how to fund, why not with an IBM contribution. It is not 
lost. But we have not discused with these people for a long, and now GTK 
guys absolutely are not aware about the society issues related to 
disability. Let's teach them. That is all the job until February.


Best regards



Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 08/11/2019 à 13:15, thom...@fastmail.cn a écrit :



On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 3:21 AM, Devin Prater wrote:

I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free 
software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, 
check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr

It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, 
the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are 
great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and 
AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not 
just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.

Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at 
(nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not 
VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of 
a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta 
versions.

I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free 
software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of 
accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the 
command line.


This is all helpful information. I did some research after I wrote this and 
found that these are not volunteers at all. All pushing against our patches are 
individuals working for IBM to ship a commercial Linux desktop and are actually 
being paid by them to work on these things. I think it is honestly quite 
shameful to see representatives of such a prominant tech company behave in this 
way. If it were just ignoring patches it would be one thing, however, many of 
these individuals are also actually fighting against the patches and making 
discriminatory comments along the way. You have small groups of individuals 
(Hypra and Igalia) who have 0 the budgets of IBM when rounding to integers 
trying to improve things, yet IBM are impeding progress. Also, completely 
volunteer groups of individuals like Debian manage to ship an accessible 
desktop, yet IBM can't be bothered to do the same and have now gone a step 
further by attacking those who try to do so. It all just sounds really screwed 
up to me. These people come from places with oodles of money and tell us we 
need a new way of doing things yet they won't pony up the money to accomplish 
anything that they ask for.

On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote:

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around 
GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would 
just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux 
accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches 
are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and 
it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the 
future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a 
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key 
parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now 
so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some 
comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me 
dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to 
purchase a Mac as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer 
and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as 
possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately 
have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and 
honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
packages.

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[thomasw]

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, at 3:21 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free 
> software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command 
> line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr
> 
> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, 
> the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are 
> great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and 
> AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not 
> just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
> 
> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at 
> (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not 
> VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year 
> of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public 
> beta versions.
> 
> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free 
> software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard 
> of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is 
> the command line.

This is all helpful information. I did some research after I wrote this and 
found that these are not volunteers at all. All pushing against our patches are 
individuals working for IBM to ship a commercial Linux desktop and are actually 
being paid by them to work on these things. I think it is honestly quite 
shameful to see representatives of such a prominant tech company behave in this 
way. If it were just ignoring patches it would be one thing, however, many of 
these individuals are also actually fighting against the patches and making 
discriminatory comments along the way. You have small groups of individuals 
(Hypra and Igalia) who have 0 the budgets of IBM when rounding to integers 
trying to improve things, yet IBM are impeding progress. Also, completely 
volunteer groups of individuals like Debian manage to ship an accessible 
desktop, yet IBM can't be bothered to do the same and have now gone a step 
further by attacking those who try to do so. It all just sounds really screwed 
up to me. These people come from places with oodles of money and tell us we 
need a new way of doing things yet they won't pony up the money to accomplish 
anything that they ask for.
>> On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts 
>> around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it 
>> all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we 
>> will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems 
>> to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken 
>> system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could 
>> cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand 
>> whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me 
>> use the computer.
>> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
>> accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
>> answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or 
>> key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a 
>> Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did 
>> notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously 
>> would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I 
>> would like to purchase a Mac as soon as possible since I will have to 
>> relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as 
>> smooth a transition as possible.
>> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I 
>> ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support 
>> myself.
>> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns 
>> and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
>> knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
>> packages.

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, thom...@fastmail.cn a écrit :

Hi,


> I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what 
upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like 
things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I 
honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a 
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.


Sure. But the current implementation is hard to maintain by the 
technical guys. Hence their request for change.


Sorry for the comparison but they do as Italy with immigration: they 
handle an European problem, but others do not move as they continuously 
support it. One day, they say "stop", others say "oh no", and a 
discussion starts. GTK devs try this, they create a kind of "shock" to 
make the community move. But with dialog, we will be able to work 
together, otherwise there are other possible toolkits with the same 
result if work is done.

I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key 
parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now 
so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some 
comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me 
dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to 
purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer 
and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as 
possible.


Guys, in free software and in Debian, we live in do-cracy. It means that 
when you are worry with a situation, get involved. How? Replying to bugs 
showing you exist and how it is a problem in your usage, eventually 
testing (packages from Sid, nightly releases, etc). If you use free 
software as simple consumers and say "bye it will not work", it is a 
ethical failure in the free software project. This philosophy is only 
possible if we get involved, at least writing "oh we exist, we do this, 
we need this!"


3 examples:
1. Thunderbird: see release 60 first edition: a lot of accessibility 
bugs. Then, 68 release: most are fixed. Why? Alex and I test nightly, 
report bugs, discuss with devs from ausage point of view (and not 
technical). They like our contrib, hence we win some debates for a 
better user experience.
2. Firefox: they enable a Reader View notification at each new page in 
Nightly. If we do not test, it will go to next release and the user 
experience will be horrible. We get involved in the bug, fixed, the 
notification is just an option
3. GTK: if you read the bug logs you mention, you see that they think no 
one use Orca. Even if they are told the opposite, they do not realize 
how and what usages. At the beginning, it was "no". Now, it is "let's do 
a hackfest, let's meet". Without reaction from Hypra guys and Samuel, 
things would have gone and been broken.


So instead of thinking of leaving free software for Apple, where, as it 
is a unique stack, nothing says they wil stay accessible in 10 years if 
they decide it is no longer a business opportunity (see Microsoft from 
2004 until 2016), show we exist!


Regards



I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately 
have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and 
honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
packages.

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Didier Spaier]

Hi,

+1 to what Alex said, and QT accessibilty is progressing too.

And indeed console applications will continue to work.

As the saying goes: "Don't destroy your now worrying about tomorrow"

Best,

Didier

Le 08/11/2019 à 09:29, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :

Hello Thomas,

To be fully clear: There is no risk to see something changes on your experience 
until approximately 4 years. The issue we've found are in GTK4 and we'll work 
with GTK4 developers to ensure the Linux accessibility will continue to be as 
good as today.

Best regards,
Alex.

Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, thom...@fastmail.cn a écrit :

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around 
GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would 
just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux 
accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches 
are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and 
it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the 
future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a 
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key 
parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now 
so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some 
comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me 
dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to 
purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer 
and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as 
possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately 
have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and 
honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
packages.

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Jean-Philippe MENGUAL]

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, thom...@fastmail.cn a écrit :

Hi,


I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what 
upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like 
things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I 
honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a 
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.


Sure. But the current implementation is hard to maintain by the 
technical guys. Hence their request for change.


Sorry for the comparison but they do as Italy with immigration: they 
handle an European problem, but others do not move as they continuously 
support it. One day, they say "stop", others say "oh no", and a 
discussion starts. GTK devs try this, they create a kind of "shock" to 
make the community move. But with dialog, we will be able to work 
together, otherwise there are other possible toolkits with the same 
result if work is done.

I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key 
parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now 
so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some 
comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me 
dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to 
purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer 
and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as 
possible.


Guys, in free software and in Debian, we live in do-cracy. It means that 
when you are worry with a situation, get involved. How? Replying to bugs 
showing you exist and how it is a problem in your usage, eventually 
testing (packages from Sid, nightly releases, etc). If you use free 
software as simple consumers and say "bye it will not work", it is a 
ethical failure in the free software project. This philosophy is only 
possible if we get involved, at least writing "oh we exist, we do this, 
we need this!"


3 examples:
1. Thunderbird: see release 60 first edition: a lot of accessibility 
bugs. Then, 68 release: most are fixed. Why? Alex and I test nightly, 
report bugs, discuss with devs from ausage point of view (and not 
technical). They like our contrib, hence we win some debates for a 
better user experience.
2. Firefox: they enable a Reader View notification at each new page in 
Nightly. If we do not test, it will go to next release and the user 
experience will be horrible. We get involved in the bug, fixed, the 
notification is just an option
3. GTK: if you read the bug logs you mention, you see that they think no 
one use Orca. Even if they are told the opposite, they do not realize 
how and what usages. At the beginning, it was "no". Now, it is "let's do 
a hackfest, let's meet". Without reaction from Hypra guys and Samuel, 
things would have gone and been broken.


So instead of thinking of leaving free software for Apple, where, as it 
is a unique stack, nothing says they wil stay accessible in 10 years if 
they decide it is no longer a business opportunity (see Microsoft from 
2004 until 2016), show we exist!


Regards



I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately 
have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and 
honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
packages.

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

Matias, I am not glorifying the Mac. I was pointing out the things that are 
different, or advantageous to us blind folk. In no way did I say that the Mac 
is for everyone, and indeed it isn’t. Also, I am no Fanboy of any platform, I 
use what I find to be the best for me. If that is Apple products at this time, 
then that’s what I’ll use. If Linux becomes the most accessible platform in my 
view, I will no hesitate to use it. So then, clear the red from your vision. To 
not feel attacked just because your preferred platform may not have all the 
nice features of a Mac, or for whatever reason you’ve decided to label me a Mac 
Fanboy and such. Really, if you do not get paid by an organization or company, 
whether it be the Free Software Foundation, Microsoft, Apple, or Google, do not 
fight for them, they don’t care about your livelihood. I talked about the Mac 
because I find it useful and good for my work. People who play audio games, or 
whose workplace is ensconced within Microsoft products, who who are in the 
healthcare business which seems to use Windows heavily, or who work on the JAWS 
screen reader, for example, would want Windows. But for just about anything 
else, a Mac is a good computer, unless you really don’t have the money, and 
have no good way to save up for it, or if free software that one can read, 
understand, and make better, then Linux will be the only choice.

Now, F123 looks very promising, so one may check that out, they seem to be 
doing very good work with Linux, and indeed, Linux accessibility, by making 
inexpensive computers which, I am sure, don’t use many resources, so 4 gigs of 
Ram is more than enough to do plenty with. Now, it is running Raspberry Pi, so 
you won’t get Voxin, but it comes with Mimic by default, and eSpeak, so speech 
quality isn’t so bad of an issue. I could see that really taking off, even for 
people in the states who are tired of Windows changing every few months, and 
bugs and screen reader upgrades (JAWS at least), but don’t want a Mac either, 
or who can’t afford one. But it runs Arch, so I’d keep discussion of it on the 
F123 list, but it is an option, if only because one could stick with GTK3 on it.

> On Nov 8, 2019, at 2:35 AM,   
> wrote:
> 
> Devin we know you are a mac fanboy!
> But stop glorify mac
> Mac are not for everyone
> Mac are not perfect
>  
> Skickades från E-post <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> för 
> Windows 10
>  
> Från: Devin Prater <mailto:r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com>
> Skickat: den 8 november 2019 09:21
> Till: thom...@fastmail.cn <mailto:thom...@fastmail.cn>
> Kopia: debian-accessibility@lists.debian.org 
> <mailto:debian-accessibility@lists.debian.org>
> Ämne: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian
>  
> I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free 
> software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command 
> line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
> <https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr>
>  
> It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, 
> the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are 
> great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and 
> AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not 
> just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.
>  
> Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at 
> (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not 
> VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year 
> of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public 
> beta versions.
>  
> I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free 
> software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard 
> of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is 
> the command line.
> 
> 
> On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn <mailto:thom...@fastmail.cn> 
> wrote:
>  
> Hi,
> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts 
> around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, 
> I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will 
> have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be 
> that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in 
> some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause 
> problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether 
> its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the 
> computer.
> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
> 

Sv: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[mjonsson1986]

And yesHave mac eloquence? NoOr yes there is a illegal portOr i Think it is illegalOn Linux we have a legal portSo stop glorify mac! Skickades från E-post för Windows 10 Från: Devin PraterSkickat: den 8 november 2019 09:21Till: thom...@fastmail.cnKopia: debian-accessibility@lists.debian.orgÄmne: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver. Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions. I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote: Hi,I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.  

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[chrys]

Howdy,
Optionally, if you use the command line, check out  
https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 
FYI: Fenrir should run on OSX as well using the PTY Terminal emulation  
backend :).


cheers chrys
Zitat von Devin Prater :

I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run  
free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use  
the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr  



It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done  
well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari,  
Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking,  
autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation,  
all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word  
processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.


Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion  
point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the  
arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are  
usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases  
are often much better than the public beta versions.


I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to  
see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not  
held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all  
we have left in Linux is the command line.



On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote:

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the  
conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into  
the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are  
knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going  
into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are  
being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some  
ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause  
problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand  
whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least  
lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but  
I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just  
like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think  
accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed  
infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that  
I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice  
some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously  
would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is  
approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible  
since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader  
(VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however,  
I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can  
support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my  
concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not  
having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is  
happening in the different upstream packages.

Sv: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[mjonsson1986]

Devin we know you are a mac fanboy!But stop glorify macMac are not for everyoneMac are not perfect Skickades från E-post för Windows 10 Från: Devin PraterSkickat: den 8 november 2019 09:21Till: thom...@fastmail.cnKopia: debian-accessibility@lists.debian.orgÄmne: Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver. Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at (nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta versions. I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the command line.On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote: Hi,I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as possible.I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream packages.  

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Alex ARNAUD]

Hello Thomas,

To be fully clear: There is no risk to see something changes on your 
experience until approximately 4 years. The issue we've found are in 
GTK4 and we'll work with GTK4 developers to ensure the Linux 
accessibility will continue to be as good as today.


Best regards,
Alex.

Le 08/11/2019 à 01:21, thom...@fastmail.cn a écrit :

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around 
GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would 
just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux 
accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches 
are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and 
it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the 
future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a 
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key 
parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now 
so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some 
comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me 
dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to 
purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer 
and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as 
possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately 
have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and 
honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
packages.

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[Devin Prater]

I would definitely recommend the Mac. You’ll still be able to run free 
software, in an environment like Unix. Optionally, if you use the command line, 
check out https://github.com/tspivey/tdsr 

It isn’t as powerful as Fenrir or Speak, but it gets the job done well. Also, 
the graphical utilities that come with the Mac, Safari, Mail, text-edit, are 
great also. There is spell checking, autocorrect, text replacement, and 
AppleScripting and Automation, all configurable, throughout the system, not 
just in your word processor, all accessible with VoiceOver.

Of course, there are current bugs. In Safari, you hear “insertion point at 
(nil)” at the end of every paragraph unless you use the arrow keys, and not 
VoiceOver navigation, to read. These bugs are usually fixed within the year of 
a version release, and the releases are often much better than the public beta 
versions.

I seriously hope that Linux stays accessible, because I’d hate to see free 
software let us down so majorly. But, volunteers are not held to a standard of 
accessibility, so I will not be shocked if all we have left in Linux is the 
command line.

> On Nov 7, 2019, at 6:21 PM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts 
> around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, 
> I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will 
> have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be 
> that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in 
> some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause 
> problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether 
> its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the 
> computer.
> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
> accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
> answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or 
> key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a 
> Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did 
> notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously 
> would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I 
> would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to 
> relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as 
> smooth a transition as possible.
> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I 
> ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support 
> myself.
> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns 
> and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
> knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
> packages.
> 

Re: Future of Accessibility in Debian

[john doe]

On 11/8/2019 1:21 AM, thom...@fastmail.cn wrote:
> Hi,
> I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts 
> around GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, 
> I would just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will 
> have Linux accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be 
> that patches are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in 
> some ways and it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause 
> problems in the future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether 
> its broken from a design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the 
> computer.
> I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
> accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
> answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or 
> key parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a 
> Mac now so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did 
> notice some comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously 
> would leave me dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I 
> would like to purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to 
> relearn the computer and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as 
> smooth a transition as possible.
> I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I 
> ultimately have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support 
> myself.
> Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns 
> and honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
> knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
> packages.
>

As an alternative to the Mac, Windows 10 with NVDA works pretty well.

--
John Doe

Future of Accessibility in Debian

[thomasw]

Hi,
I have followed the discussion on the orca list lately and the conflicts around 
GTK 4 accessibility. I guess without getting into the drama of it all, I would 
just like to ask those who are knowledgeable if they think we will have Linux 
accessibility going into the future. I guess the issue seems to be that patches 
are being created for what upstream thinks is a broken system in some ways and 
it sounds like things like keyboard snooping could cause problems in the 
future. I honestly don't know enough to understand whether its broken from a 
design standpoint, however, it at least lets me use the computer.
I am not a skilled enough developer to understand all this yet but I rely on 
accessibility software for my job. I guess I would just like as honest as an 
answer as possible. If people think accessibility is going to be removed or key 
parts of the needed infrastructure, I see no other option than to buy a Mac now 
so that I can continue to operate the computer in the future. I did notice some 
comments that proposed removing ATK entirely which obviously would leave me 
dead in the water.. Ultimately, if the end is approaching, I would like to 
purchase a Mac  as soon as possible since I will have to relearn the computer 
and a new screen reader (VoiceOver and would like as smooth a transition as 
possible.
I love using free software and hope to continue doing so, however, I ultimately 
have to do what is necessary to keep my job so I can support myself.
Thanks for any information and i hope those here can understand my concerns and 
honestly just not knowing what to do based on not having the technical 
knowledge to understand entirely what is happening in the different upstream 
packages.