Re: Do not CC me
Le 26/11/2012 15:34, Thomas Goirand a écrit : On 11/26/2012 03:06 PM, Vincent Danjean wrote: Not always. My ISP (French Free/Proxad) seems to filter mail with the same Message-ID sent in a few period of time (a few minutes?) [...] Changing of ISP is not really an option (other French ISP are often less respecting of the standard or lots more expensive or ...). Why don't you keep your ISP, and host your mail address somewhere else? Your email address isn't necessarily bound to your DSL provider... For MLs, I try to remember to use the email of my ISP (setting the From header when required) and I subscribed all my MLs with this address. The reason is that it provides a large storage in case I stopped to read my mail for a few weeks (traveling, ...) and also that this mail is not merged with personal and/or professional mail. That said, I think I regularly use more than 15 emails addresses depending on the context and only a few of them are bound to my ISP. Regards, Vincent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b4767e.3010...@free.fr
Re: Do not CC me
On 11/27/2012 05:28 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: On Lu, 26 nov 12, 20:03:54, Thomas Goirand wrote: The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I thought Reply-To: was to be used (only) by the people who do want a Cc. That's not a problem. If the list manager sees a Reply-To sent by the user, then it wouldn't modify it. This way, you don't loose the functionality. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b4d746@debian.org
Re: Do not CC me
On Sun, 2012-11-25 at 19:41:12 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Henrique de Moraes Holschuh h...@debian.org writes: Well, the software to do it is around for more than 15 years. Google for procmail duplicate suppression. This works exactly backwards of how useful duplicate suppression would actually work. The personal copy is useless; the mailing list copy will get filed into the proper folder and is the one that you want to keep. Well, obviously that depends on how one handles mail, but I can see how getting a copy when you don't read a specific mailing list very often, serves at least to draw attention that there's mail on the list, which can always be removed afterwards if it's unneeded. The duplicate suppression that you want is to get rid of the personal copy and keep the list copy, but that's more complex to do right, because you have to essentially quarantine the personal copy while you wait for the list copy that's supposed to replace it, and then deliver the personal copy if the list copy never arrives. You certainly have to go to more effort than just mainining a database of message IDs and throwing away the message the second time you see it. That's one of the reasons I stopped removing/stashing dupes long time ago, the other being, the annoyance of having broken/partial threads on multiple mail boxes. I switched to just marking and showing them “distinctively”, so that I can know immediately if there's other instances around, and can choose where to read them from. As in: ,--- procmailrc --- # Check for duped mails :0 Whc : Admin/msgid.lock | formail -D 524288 Admin/msgid.cache # If it's a dupe, mark it :0 aBfh | formail -a X-Duped: yes `--- ,--- muttrc --- color index blue black ~h '^X-Duped: yes' `--- In any case, I don't mind much adapting to either mailing list usage (w/ or w/o explicit CC), but I've increasingly been finding that the no-CC policy is not w/o fault, being inconsistent (because you don't know off-hand who's subscribed, so on initial mails you might need to CC people directly), prone to missing the recipient (because this is not a usual convention, and people not subscribed might mail a list and expect being CCed, but doing so might incur being chastized in the name of the CoC!), requires being more attentive in case you need to CC when people request it explicitly (and the danger of being chastized for not doing so), and slighty annoying when people complain due to being accidentally CCed or not CCed at all. Thanks, Guillem -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126090759.ga12...@gaara.hadrons.org
Re: Do not CC me
Le Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:07:59AM +0100, Guillem Jover a écrit : In any case, I don't mind much adapting to either mailing list usage (w/ or w/o explicit CC), but I've increasingly been finding that the no-CC policy is not w/o fault, being inconsistent (because you don't know off-hand who's subscribed, so on initial mails you might need to CC people directly), prone to missing the recipient (because this is not a usual convention, and people not subscribed might mail a list and expect being CCed, but doing so might incur being chastized in the name of the CoC!), requires being more attentive in case you need to CC when people request it explicitly (and the danger of being chastized for not doing so), and slighty annoying when people complain due to being accidentally CCed or not CCed at all. And to add to the confusion, the BTS does not automatically subscribe the contributors to a thread, and it is hard to keep track, among the recipients known for disliking to be CCed on mailing lists, who wants to be CCed on the BTS or not, (not to mention that one can not check if they are subscribed or not to mailing lists that would receive the BTS email). Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126092317.ga12...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Charles Plessy wrote: And to add to the confusion, the BTS does not automatically subscribe the contributors to a thread, As a submitter of bugs, I do not need (nor want) to be CCed on every mail to a bug, just the ones that require my input. So I would oppose subscribing submitters by default unless they opt-in to that. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caktje6ezad6+eqxrazzxo81vpjraatenbasedj9l19zyoiw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Do not CC me
* Paul Wise p...@debian.org, 2012-11-26, 17:34: And to add to the confusion, the BTS does not automatically subscribe the contributors to a thread, As a submitter of bugs, I do not need (nor want) to be CCed on every mail to a bug, just the ones that require my input. ACK So I would oppose subscribing submitters by default unless they opt-in to that. I'm not an enthusiast of this idea either, though I'm not sure it'll actually make things worse. Currently quite often happens that: - questions that I should answer personally are _not_ CCed to me, - boring technical discussion I couldn't care less about _are_ CCed to me. -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126094949.ga4...@jwilk.net
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:27:31AM +0400, ?? ?? wrote: I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. Technically this is a solved problem. The solution is called Mail-Followup-To[1]. Due to the popularity of the Mutt, Gnus, KMail and Icedove MUAs among Debian users this header is honoured in many cases. (Those should make up at least half of the list traffic.) A quick grep on my mailbox tells me that about one fifth of the posts already carry a Mail-Followup-To. Seems like there is some still room for improvement for those crying do not CC. To generate Mail-Followup-To see: * Mutt: http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/manual-4.html#ss4.8 * Gnus: http://gnus.org/manual/gnus_28.html * Icedove: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Help_Documentation:Mail-Followup-To_and_Mail-Reply-To#Configure_Thunderbird Hope this helps. So I'd like to note: 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only two options: reply and reply to all. Reply will send email to the author, not to the list With some MUAs it is difficult not to send mail in HTML-only. Is that an excuse to do so? I'd say no. So if you deliberately choose the pain of correctly sending mail with GMail, that's hardly my problem, right? Helmut [1] http://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126101027.ga12...@alf.mars
Re: Do not CC me
On 11/26/2012 04:27 AM, Игорь Пашев wrote: Hi there! I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. So I'd like to note: 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only two options: reply and reply to all. Reply will send email to the author, not to the list 2. Some email cleints are smart enough to guess that CC and list email is the same and will not duplicate it The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since then, nobody sends double-messages. But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ, which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE). Thomas P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To: header breaks the RFC, and people setting-it up explicitly on their mail client, but it works very well... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b35aaa.4000...@debian.org
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote: The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since then, nobody sends double-messages. But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ, which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE). mailman has those options but lists.debian.org doesn't use mailman. lists.alioth.debian.org and lists.debconf.org do though. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6HyH1aB7W9+50cd3wngUc-0zhKs2JZ=wlgozdx6q6t...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Do not CC me
Le lundi 26 novembre 2012 à 20:03 +0800, Thomas Goirand a écrit : The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since then, nobody sends double-messages. Does it mean none of your subscribers use thunderbird? -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1353933329.31727.14.camel@tomoyo
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 08:03:54PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. As you pointed out the solution is technically wrong. But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ, which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE). Already refuted by Paul Wise. P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To: header breaks the RFC, and people setting-it up explicitly on their mail client, but it works very well... It breaks a valid use case. Consider a user not subscribed to debian-devel (for instance because she wishes to avoid all those useless flames). Said users sends a mail and actually wants CC. She therefore adds a sensible Mail-Followup-To, which is not honoured due to the presence of the broken Reply-To. The response is lost despite the explicit preference of the user. So what could be done indeed is to generate a missing Mail-Followup-To header on the mailing list server, as the server knows who is subscribed. I doubt that any mailing list software has such a hack implemented. Maybe fix your MUA instead? Helmut -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126123231.GA19016@localhost
Re: Do not CC me
Le lundi 26 novembre 2012 à 13:32 +0100, Helmut Grohne a écrit : It breaks a valid use case. Consider a user not subscribed to debian-devel (for instance because she wishes to avoid all those useless flames). Said users sends a mail and actually wants CC. She therefore adds a sensible Mail-Followup-To, which is not honoured due to the presence of the broken Reply-To. The response is lost despite the explicit preference of the user. Mail-Followup-To is not a standard of any kind. It is not implemented in many email clients, which makes it de facto useless. Calling MUAs “broken” because they don’t implement something that doesn’t even have clear semantics is a quite a stretch. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1353933824.31727.16.camel@tomoyo
Re: Do not CC me
On 11/26/2012 02:06 AM, Vincent Danjean wrote: Hi, Le 26/11/2012 04:41, Russ Allbery a écrit : When someone copies you on a message to a mailing list, you get two copies, Not always. My ISP (French Free/Proxad) seems to filter mail with the same Message-ID sent in a few period of time (a few minutes?) Gmail does something similar, except not time-limited; it won't even re-send you a copy of a mail you send to a mailing list. This is apparently on the grounds that you already have a copy under Sent Items or equivalent, and of course Gmail's magical unified conversations view will show that message in the discussion's context no matter where it's actually stored. Which is useless if you're not using the Gmail Web interface, of course... not to mention if you actually want the modified mailing-list copy. I suppose there's argument to be made that the actual problem lies in not changing the Message-ID when modifying a message for mailing-list retransmission, but that's a long-established practice and there are very likely reasons for it. -- The Wanderer Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any side of it. Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it. - LiveJournal user antonia_tiger -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b36977.3090...@fastmail.fm
Re: Do not CC me
Hello, On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:07:03 -0500 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Gmail does something similar, except not time-limited; it won't even re-send you a copy of a mail you send to a mailing list. This is apparently on the grounds that you already have a copy under Sent Items or equivalent, and of course Gmail's magical unified conversations view will show that message in the discussion's context no matter where it's actually stored. Not always true. I get both, every time, and the sent message sometimes I get twice :) -- WBR, Andrew signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Do not CC me
On 11/26/2012 08:22 AM, Andrew Shadura wrote: Hello, On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:07:03 -0500 The Wanderer wande...@fastmail.fm wrote: Gmail does something similar, except not time-limited; it won't even re-send you a copy of a mail you send to a mailing list. This is apparently on the grounds that you already have a copy under Sent Items or equivalent, and of course Gmail's magical unified conversations view will show that message in the discussion's context no matter where it's actually stored. Not always true. I get both, every time, and the sent message sometimes I get twice :) Hmm. Maybe they changed something after all; the last time I looked at this was at least two years ago, but at the time they seemed to consider the behavior a feature rather than a bug, despite the number of people requesting the ability to disable it. Given their track record with such things (or at least my impression thereof), I didn't expect them to have changed that. If they *have* introduced the ability to configure this, I'd like to know how... another thing to look into, I suppose. -- The Wanderer Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any side of it. Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it. - LiveJournal user antonia_tiger -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b36e29.9000...@fastmail.fm
Re: Do not CC me
On 11/26/2012 08:35 PM, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 26 novembre 2012 à 20:03 +0800, Thomas Goirand a écrit : The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since then, nobody sends double-messages. Does it mean none of your subscribers use thunderbird? If you hit reply with Thunderbird, then it does reply to the list. But if you hit reply all it replies to everyone. So, it's only half broken ... :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b37ceb.9030...@debian.org
Re: Do not CC me
On 11/26/2012 03:06 PM, Vincent Danjean wrote: Not always. My ISP (French Free/Proxad) seems to filter mail with the same Message-ID sent in a few period of time (a few minutes?) [...] Changing of ISP is not really an option (other French ISP are often less respecting of the standard or lots more expensive or ...). Why don't you keep your ISP, and host your mail address somewhere else? Your email address isn't necessarily bound to your DSL provider... Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b37e09.8050...@debian.org
Reply-To munging (was: Re: Do not CC me)
Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org writes: The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since then, nobody sends double-messages. But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such kind of options (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ, which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE). Thomas P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To: header breaks the RFC, and people setting-it up explicitly on their mail client, but it works very well... Fascinating. Did I miss the announcement of Repeat-Every-Controversial-Discussion month or what? Anyway, to save us some time, could everybody please just read http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html and agree that we are not going to agree on this subject either? There is absolutely no reason to repeat any of the arguments found in those three documents here. Anyone reading this list should be capable of googling. Bjørn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wqx8qx47.fsf...@nemi.mork.no
Re: Do not CC me
On Lu, 26 nov 12, 01:10:13, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: But in general with CC's to the mailing lists, both To: Cc: headers have debian-devel yourself in both messages and List-Id only in one of them. So surely you can filter one copy to /dev/null as appropriate?! I've considered to add this myself, this solution doesn't cover the CC to draw attention case. I'm guessing many people will check their Inbox more often than mailing list folders, especially when travelling, slow connection, busy, etc. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Do not CC me
On Lu, 26 nov 12, 20:03:54, Thomas Goirand wrote: The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I thought Reply-To: was to be used (only) by the people who do want a Cc. Kind regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Do not CC me
On Nov 26, 2012, at 08:03 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: The solution to this is very simple. Have the mailing list manager to add a Reply-To: header on each messages. I've done this on few of the lists I manage, and since then, nobody sends double-messages. But, probably, mailman is too stupid to have such kind of options Wrong. Mailman has supported Reply-To munging for ages. (I use (and maintain in Debian) MLMMJ, which is used by big distros like Gentoo and SUSE). P.S: I know that the list manager adding a Reply-To: header breaks the RFC, and people setting-it up explicitly on their mail client, but it works very well... Until someone accidentally sends a private response to the entire mailing list. This is a policy issue for which the majority consensus is that MLMs should not munge Reply-To. There are contrary views, which is why Mailman supports either (we generally support the relevant RFCs but leave policy decisions to list owners). If you really want to understand both sides of the argument: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-useful.html Cheers, -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Do not CC me
Hi there! I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. So I'd like to note: 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only two options: reply and reply to all. Reply will send email to the author, not to the list 2. Some email cleints are smart enough to guess that CC and list email is the same and will not duplicate it
Re: Do not CC me
Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:27:31AM +0400, Игорь Пашев wrote: I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. This is a technical list. Please discuss non-technical issues like the above elsewhere, e.g. on debian-project. Thanks and best regards, Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121125203311.gd27...@nighthawk.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, 07:27:31 LHST, Игорь Пашев pashev.i...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there! I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. So I'd like to note: 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only two options: reply and reply to all. Reply will send email to the author, not to the list then people using those mail clients will need to take extra care to remove CCs, just as i had to in replying now. Thanks, kk 2. Some email cleints are smart enough to guess that CC and list email is the same and will not duplicate it -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1353875732.2685.2.camel@Nokia-N900-02-8
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 07:35:32AM +1100, Karl Goetz wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, 07:27:31 LHST, Игорь Пашев pashev.i...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there! I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. So I'd like to note: 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only two options: reply and reply to all. Reply will send email to the author, not to the list then people using those mail clients will need to take extra care to remove CCs, just as i had to in replying now. It's annoying and it wastes my time. If your MUA can't handle a CC, get a better MUA. +1 to removing the CC rule. Thanks, kk 2. Some email cleints are smart enough to guess that CC and list email is the same and will not duplicate it -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1353875732.2685.2.camel@Nokia-N900-02-8 -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org : :' : Proud Debian Developer `. `'` 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Do not CC me
On 25.11.2012 22:49, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: It's annoying and it wastes my time. If your MUA can't handle a CC, get a better MUA. +1 to removing the CC rule. It's annoying and it wastes my time to deal with duplicates. If yor MUA can't handle mailing lists properly, get a better MUA. +1 on keeping things as they are. Now that our points are clear, please let us all stop ranting and those of you who would like to change our code of conduction, could try to find /real/ arguments against that rule on debian-project if you care. But please note that anything starting with But $MY_MUA can['t] does not count as real argument until we have a Debian Developer Reference Software Toolstack. -- with kind regards, Arno Töll IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Do not CC me
On 26/11/2012 05:49, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 07:35:32AM +1100, Karl Goetz wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, 07:27:31 LHST, Игорь Пашев pashev.i...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there! I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. So I'd like to note: 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only two options: reply and reply to all. Reply will send email to the author, not to the list then people using those mail clients will need to take extra care to remove CCs, just as i had to in replying now. It's annoying and it wastes my time. If your MUA can't handle a CC, get a better MUA. +1 to removing the CC rule. For the record, I read debian-devel (and a bunch of other Debian lists) via news.gmane.org, which means that mails from these lists don't enter my email. If you CC me in replies, they do end up in my email, which means I now have to take care of stuffing them somewhere or deleting them. Please let's just leave it as it is and not CC people. Most proper MUA's have a Reply to mailing list option, which you should be using, instead of Reply All. And if your MUA doesn't have such an option, it isn't a proper MUA, so use something else or manually remove the CC. This is just about as irritating as people using broken MUAs that break threads. -- Kind regards, Loong Jin signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Do not CC me
Hello there, On 25 November 2012 20:35, Karl Goetz k...@kgoetz.id.au wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, 07:27:31 LHST, Игорь Пашев pashev.i...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there! I see many note in this list like: I'm registered to the list. So please *do not* Cc: me. So I'd like to note: 1. Some e-mail cleints make it hard not to CC. For example GMail has only two options: reply and reply to all. Reply will send email to the author, not to the list then people using those mail clients will need to take extra care to remove CCs, just as i had to in replying now. If your e-mail processing machinery cannot handle duplicate messages (due to cross-postings and CC's), maybe you should get an a better email processing machinery. Receiving duplicate emails is inevitable, and trivial to deal with. I have had many times I didn't see your email, because it was filtered to mailing-lists instead of my higher priority mailbox, please CC me on important stuff. This is also especially true for people who read mailing lists via rss/nntp and not directly through their email. Also, since debian-devel is an open-post mailing list, there is no guarantee the posters are subscribed (although it's easy to spot the usual suspects). You may wish to CC me anytime you reply to my postings on debian mailinglists. I really don't mind. Regards, Dmitrijs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/canbhlugnsuysdzbmeuhyk3bqxj-_8z9rwg6n0ig2gxvorfs...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Do not CC me
On Nov 25, 2012, at 11:50 PM, Arno Töll wrote: It's annoying and it wastes my time to deal with duplicates. If yor MUA can't handle mailing lists properly, get a better MUA. +1 on keeping things as they are. Maybe it takes longer than 14 years for MUAs to implement standards[1]. ;) (Yes, that is a sarcastic joke! and of course I'm +1 on Arno's sentiment.) -Barry [1] http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2369.html signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Do not CC me
* Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org, 2012-11-26, 00:19: If your e-mail processing machinery cannot handle duplicate messages (due to cross-postings and CC's), maybe you should get an a better email processing machinery. Receiving duplicate emails is inevitable, and trivial to deal with. Oh really? I've always wondered how is this supposed to work. Let's imagine I received a mail, read it, decided it's not important, and deleted it. 5 minutes later another mail with different contents and headers but the same message-id is received. How do you deal with such situation trivially? Do you have some kind of AI to decide whether this is the same message or not? -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126003305.ga5...@jwilk.net
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:19:18AM +, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: If your e-mail processing machinery cannot handle duplicate messages (due to cross-postings and CC's), maybe you should get an a better email processing machinery. Receiving duplicate emails is inevitable, and trivial to deal with. Is it? I filter mailing lists into a separate folder for each mailing list using procmail (using the RFC 2919 List-Id header). I also have notifications on my cell phone (via my IMAP client) for mail in my inbox and certain other folders, but not mailing lists. So if I receive the CC first, and the mail from the list second, whatever de-duplication I do, I've already been notified that I have a potentially important email in my inbox. Please inform me how I am to go back in time and not receive the notification on my cell phone, or please explain to me why your mail to the list is so important that I should receive notification of it wherever I am and whatever I'm doing. -- brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US +1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b: 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Do not CC me
On 26 November 2012 00:50, brian m. carlson sand...@crustytoothpaste.net wrote: On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:19:18AM +, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: If your e-mail processing machinery cannot handle duplicate messages (due to cross-postings and CC's), maybe you should get an a better email processing machinery. Receiving duplicate emails is inevitable, and trivial to deal with. Is it? I filter mailing lists into a separate folder for each mailing list using procmail (using the RFC 2919 List-Id header). I also have notifications on my cell phone (via my IMAP client) for mail in my inbox and certain other folders, but not mailing lists. So if I receive the CC first, and the mail from the list second, whatever de-duplication I do, I've already been notified that I have a potentially important email in my inbox. Please inform me how I am to go back in time and not receive the notification on my cell phone, or please explain to me why your mail to the list is so important that I should receive notification of it wherever I am and whatever I'm doing. I see. I went back to check my email archive. I have found two instances of debian-devel posts that did CC my @debian.org email address (I am also subscribed to debian devel via @debian.org). I only have one email. It is sorted correctly. I am still trying to decipher how come I don't have this problem. But in general with CC's to the mailing lists, both To: Cc: headers have debian-devel yourself in both messages and List-Id only in one of them. So surely you can filter one copy to /dev/null as appropriate?! BCC: is the evil one, cause then you have to look at Delivered-To. Regards, Dmitrijs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/canbhluhmxbwd8_yyfy4zv-0zrvxdaclrxe9ceoj7itbuh21...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Jakub Wilk wrote: * Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org, 2012-11-26, 00:19: If your e-mail processing machinery cannot handle duplicate messages (due to cross-postings and CC's), maybe you should get an a better email processing machinery. Receiving duplicate emails is inevitable, and trivial to deal with. Oh really? I've always wondered how is this supposed to work. Well, the software to do it is around for more than 15 years. Google for procmail duplicate suppression. Basically you keep a database of the message-ids seen in the last n days, and don't deliver them again. You do it per-folder or system-wide or in whatever way you want, by using separate databases. Nowadays there is an added aggravation: if anyone worth of notice uses Outlook, you need to key on envelope sender+recipient+message-id to work around some atrocious bugs in Outlook's message-id handling. I just store everything in Cyrus IMAPd 2.4, and tell it using a folder annotation whether it should drop or store duplicates that end up sorted to that folder. Let's imagine I received a mail, read it, decided it's not important, and deleted it. 5 minutes later another mail with different contents and headers but the same message-id is received. How do you deal with such situation trivially? Do you have some kind of AI to decide whether this is the same message or not? A duplicate suppresion database does not even require a state machine, let alone an AI... -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126011227.ga21...@khazad-dum.debian.net
Re: Do not CC me
On 11/25/2012 08:12 PM, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Jakub Wilk wrote: * Dmitrijs Ledkovs x...@debian.org, 2012-11-26, 00:19: If your e-mail processing machinery cannot handle duplicate messages (due to cross-postings and CC's), maybe you should get an a better email processing machinery. Receiving duplicate emails is inevitable, and trivial to deal with. Oh really? I've always wondered how is this supposed to work. Well, the software to do it is around for more than 15 years. Google for procmail duplicate suppression. But what about cases where suppressing duplicates isn't what you want to do? If someone CCs me on a reply to an on-list message, it means (or should mean) I specifically want to draw your attention to this, and I think you may not see the reply if I just send it to the list. In cases where they're right, I very likely do want to see the CCed duplicate copy. Not to mention that on-list messages are generally at least slightly different (altered Subject lines and/or list footers being the most common visible examples, and List-ID headers being one common usually-invisible example); I do want the on-list copy (so that messages from the list in my archive are consistent), even if I've already received the off-list copy, but in my experience the Message-IDs of the two variants of the message are very often identical. -- The Wanderer Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any side of it. Every time you let somebody set a limit they start moving it. - LiveJournal user antonia_tiger -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b2c4b6.2090...@fastmail.fm
Re: Do not CC me
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh h...@debian.org writes: Well, the software to do it is around for more than 15 years. Google for procmail duplicate suppression. This works exactly backwards of how useful duplicate suppression would actually work. When someone copies you on a message to a mailing list, you get two copies, one of which has all the mailing list headers (like List-Id) to properly filter it into the folder with all the other mailing list messages, and the other of which doesn't without matching on To and Cc headers (and missing Bcc'd messages, messages that arrived by way of the BTS, etc., unless you put a fair amount of effort into chasing edge cases). The personal copy is useless; the mailing list copy will get filed into the proper folder and is the one that you want to keep. However, the personal copy, for obvious reasons, nearly always arrives first, so procmail then throws away the copy send via the mailing list (losing the copy that would go into the proper mailing list archive folder) and then delivers the personal copy into your inbox, where it doesn't belong. It's actually *worse* than just living with two copies of the message. The duplicate suppression that you want is to get rid of the personal copy and keep the list copy, but that's more complex to do right, because you have to essentially quarantine the personal copy while you wait for the list copy that's supposed to replace it, and then deliver the personal copy if the list copy never arrives. You certainly have to go to more effort than just mainining a database of message IDs and throwing away the message the second time you see it. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87d2z1m3on@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Do not CC me
Hi, Le 26/11/2012 04:41, Russ Allbery a écrit : When someone copies you on a message to a mailing list, you get two copies, Not always. My ISP (French Free/Proxad) seems to filter mail with the same Message-ID sent in a few period of time (a few minutes?) When I discovered that (of course, this is not something that is widely announced...), I understand why I miss some calls for vote: they are cross-posted in several Debian ML and my ISP only let one copy pass, copy that comes into a ML mailbox I do not check regularly (debian-project for example). So I miss the one sent to debian-devel-announce. Of course, I've the same problem with mail CC to me (I did not receive the copy for my procmail rules). Changing of ISP is not really an option (other French ISP are often less respecting of the standard or lots more expensive or ...). Regards, Vincent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b31501.7080...@ens-lyon.org
Re: Do not CC me
Vincent Danjean vincent.danj...@ens-lyon.org writes: Not always. My ISP (French Free/Proxad) seems to filter mail with the same Message-ID sent in a few period of time (a few minutes?) Interesting, this could explain the oddities that I've seen too. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/84d2z0sube@sauna.l.org
Re: Do not CC me
On Mon, 26 Nov 2012, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: I see. I went back to check my email archive. I have found two instances of debian-devel posts that did CC my @debian.org email address (I am also subscribed to debian devel via @debian.org). I only have one email. It is sorted correctly. I am still trying to decipher how come I don't have this problem. You might have configured greylisting on your @debian.org email address while all mails from @lists.debian.org probably goes through directly on any debian.org machine. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer Get the Debian Administrator's Handbook: → http://debian-handbook.info/get/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121126075113.gc11...@x230-buxy.home.ouaza.com
