debian in ROM (was: Re: Editor wars considered harmful)
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, SirDibos wrote: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Jon Rabone wrote: Or if anyone interested, make up a special ROM with kernel etc in it, so the machine will boot from ROM... Has anyone done this? You'd need about 512 kB of ROM. Where are you going to put it? Ethercard boot ROMS are more like 16 kB. Bugger that. How about 4 megs? And make it an EPROM. stash the kernel and a basic root fs in there update as necessary with a rom burner. What would it take to procure a motherboard that supported that? I think this thread has strayed away from debian-devel material. However, I've seen ads for rom-disk or DOS-in-ROM cards. These typically provide floppy-sized ROM (no reason it can't be more), and emulate a floppy controller. The machine treats the ROM on the card like a floppy disk -- boots from it, etc. A minimal system (e.g., the debian resq disk) could fit on one of these cards, or an arbitraily larger system if more ROM was provided. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
RE: debian in ROM (was: Re: Editor wars considered harmful)
On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Michael Meskes wrote: Is there soemthing like a real rescue disk? Or are we talking about the installation disks? I was referring to resq installation boot disk. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
On Jun 23, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Perens) wrote: The solution is to put up a menu of check-boxes of what editor you want, and install it from packages as soon as possible after the system is installed. Not everybody installs off of CD-Rom, and can therefore make their selection from the menu (well, they could make the selection, but it wont do them much good). What if I need an editor to get Debian sufficiently working so that I can access the packages that have my editor of choice? Adding editors to the base is a slippery slope. The reason you add one is just as good to add the next... Then add the smallest available full screen editor that is reasonably usuable (i.e. a person who can get to the point of installing Debian can figure out how to work it by starting it and looking at it, which leaves out anything that works like vi (Hey, I like vi, and I tell anybody who is trying to become Unix literate that they need to learn vi, but there is nothing intuitive about it)). Don't make any pretense that it's the standard Debian editor. It's just the smallest. If somebody comes up with something smaller, replace it. I don't think the base editor needs to be able to do anything except insert and delete characters, and move the cursor using the arrow keys. But it's gotta be on the base disks. Steve Greenland -- The Mole - I think, therefore I scream A eccentric America is a Safe America... [Moi] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Bruce Perens wrote: The problem is that no editor is popular with everyone, and nobody is learning VI any longer, and Emacs isn't so popular either. lots of people are learning still vi nowadays for pretty much the same reasons that they learnt it in the past: it's small, it's lean, it's fast, it's powerful, it does regular expressions, it's flexible, it's on every unix system (and many other systems too), AND it's the only thing that's actually USABLE over a slow network connection. (slow being anything with, say, greater than 200ms ping times. e.g. a ppp/slip modem connection, a machine that's 10 or 15 hops away over the internet, a machine that's 1 hop away over a completely flooded ethernet) The solution is to put up a menu of check-boxes of what editor you want, and install it from packages as soon as possible after the system is installed. Adding editors to the base is a slippery slope. yes, there should be a veritable plethora of editors available for installation AFTER the base system is up and running. The more the better. The base system should have ae (or similar newbie editor like pico) and the smallest possible implementation of vi that works. period. If something has to go to make room for it on the disks, then so be it. There's lots of non-essential bloat that can go. e.g. there's quite a bit of necessary documentation which is useful for getting the system up to a point where it can install the rest of the packages. This stuff should undoubtedly stay. However, there's also a lot of extra documentation which could/should be installed later with the rest of the packages. This can go if space is tight. This can easily be automated with debian's packaging system - just make the debian version number on the base disks -0 or something, and it will be upgraded to the latest version with full docs when dselect is run. The reason you add one is just as good to add the next... No it's not. The reason for installing vi is that it is THE standard editor for all unixes. It is the one editor which is guarranteed to be on ANY unix system. Having a version of vi (no matter how primitive) available for initial system config and install is essential. craig -- craig sanders networking consultant Available for casual or contract temporary autonomous zone system administration tasks. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
From: Craig Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] lots of people are learning still vi nowadays for pretty much the same reasons that they learnt it in the past: it's small, it's lean, it's fast, it's powerful, it does regular expressions, it's flexible, it's on every unix system (and many other systems too), AND it's the only thing that's actually USABLE over a slow network connection. Don't scare me, Craig. I'm afraid the question of putting a real editor on the base will be taken seriously, and editor partisans will then start singing the paens of their favorite editors: emacs, joe, ee, axe, beav, fte, jed, sam, wily, xcoral, xwpe, etc. yes, there should be a veritable plethora of editors available for installation AFTER the base system is up and running. The more the better. The base system should have ae (or similar newbie editor like pico) and the smallest possible implementation of vi that works. Drop the vi, and we'll be in agreement, unless you can accept the vi emulation written for ae. Anyone who knows vi is competent to bring up their system using ae and install vi from a package. Bruce -- Bruce Perens K6BP [EMAIL PROTECTED] 510-215-3502 Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP public key. PGP fingerprint = 88 6A 15 D0 65 D4 A3 A6 1F 89 6A 76 95 24 87 B3 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Bruce Perens wrote: yes, there should be a veritable plethora of editors available for installation AFTER the base system is up and running. The more the better. The base system should have ae (or similar newbie editor like pico) and the smallest possible implementation of vi that works. If something has to go to make room for it on the disks, then so be it. I think it is more important to support all reasonable install methods on the base disks (including dpkg-ftp via ppp) than to include vi. Personally, I prefer vi to pico or ae, but I can deal with either one for as long as it takes for me to get the system up to the point where I can install vi or Emacs. The reason for installing vi is that it is THE standard editor for all unixes. It is the one editor which is guarranteed to be on ANY unix system. Learning vi was handy the day I had to do some work on an old Xenix installation on a TRS-80 Model III (with a 5MB hard drive). I was able to do the work I needed to do in ed, since vi -wasn't- available. If any editor had a claim as the one editor which is guaranteed to be on ANY Unix system, it would be ed. Having a version of vi (no matter how primitive) available for initial system config and install is essential. Having some editor (no matter how primitive) available for initial system config and install is essential. Having that editor be vi isn't. Ae is nice in that it tells the basic editing commands on the top portion of the screen. Someone who isn't used to -any- Unix editor would like that much more than the initial beep mode of vi (where you press any key, and it beeps at you). -I- would prefer vi, but I know vi. If I didn't know vi, I'd prefer ae or pine. craig -- craig sanders networking consultant Available for casual or contract temporary autonomous zone system administration tasks. -- Buddha Buck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just as the strength of the Internet is chaos, so the strength of our liberty depends upon the chaos and cacaphony of the unfettered speech the First Amendment protects. -- A.L.A. v. U.S. Dept. of Justice -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: Show me a computer that can boot off a cdrom... and gimme a cdrom that will boot up debian... And Ill buy it like a shot. Mine will. And no, you can't have it. Most modern Award BIOSes will boot El Torito CD images, and I believe the official Debian CDROM images are El Torito? Or if anyone interested, make up a special ROM with kernel etc in it, so the machine will boot from ROM... Has anyone done this? You'd need about 512 kB of ROM. Where are you going to put it? Ethercard boot ROMS are more like 16 kB. Jon. -- My email address is changing: please only use [EMAIL PROTECTED] from now on. My engineering userid will cease to function in the near future. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Jon Rabone wrote: Or if anyone interested, make up a special ROM with kernel etc in it, so the machine will boot from ROM... Has anyone done this? You'd need about 512 kB of ROM. Where are you going to put it? Ethercard boot ROMS are more like 16 kB. Bugger that. How about 4 megs? And make it an EPROM. stash the kernel and a basic root fs in there update as necessary with a rom burner. What would it take to procure a motherboard that supported that? Don Dibos -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
Francesco Tapparo: Of course ae will be used in the boot disks, but in the default installation, joe must be the choiche, IMO. From: Lars Wirzenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is a editor war. Please don't continue it. Don't worry, whether or not he continues it, he will be ignored. There will be no editor in the 2.0 base system except perhaps for ae, and even then ae should only be used for long enough to get a real editor installed from a package. vi was included in the 1.3 base only because there was space for it, not as a policy decision, and I'm not sure that was a good idea. Editors are to be installed from packages. Period. Bruce Perens Debian Project Leader -- Bruce Perens K6BP [EMAIL PROTECTED] 510-215-3502 Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP public key. PGP fingerprint = 88 6A 15 D0 65 D4 A3 A6 1F 89 6A 76 95 24 87 B3 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
The problem is that no editor is popular with everyone, and nobody is learning VI any longer, and Emacs isn't so popular either. The solution is to put up a menu of check-boxes of what editor you want, and install it from packages as soon as possible after the system is installed. Adding editors to the base is a slippery slope. The reason you add one is just as good to add the next... Thanks Bruce -- Bruce Perens K6BP [EMAIL PROTECTED] 510-215-3502 Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP public key. PGP fingerprint = 88 6A 15 D0 65 D4 A3 A6 1F 89 6A 76 95 24 87 B3 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
On Jun 22, Lars Wirzenius wrote [ Please don't Cc: public replies to me. ] Francesco Tapparo: Of course ae will be used in the boot disks, but in the default installation, joe must be the choiche, IMO. This is a editor war. Please don't continue it. . I apologize, if don't have explained well my concepts: I' don't want a Joe-dependant debian. There are the facts: in a mail, Kai Henningsen said that ae is the only user-friendly text-editor; I've answered that also Joe is it. Here Joe is only an example.Than James Troub, in a _private_ email, pointed out the fact that ae is 20K in size, and Joe 170K. Believing that his mail was in debian-devel (my error), I've answered also there. But my answer was only about his letter,that is obviously not int this list: the phrase ae will be used in the boot disks, but in the default installation joe must be the choice want say that, in the normal use, the 170K of Joe are not a problem; here I use the term joe because in the letter betwenn me and James Troub we speak about ae and joe but the same argument are suitable for ve,emacs,jed etc. I hope that, with this my mail, the question will be resolved. ciao Francesco Tapparo [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
On 23 Jun 1997, Sven Rudolph wrote: (Nowadays many people won't install base from floppy, so I'd even risk more base floppies, but currently this is plain speculation, because there is enough free space (more than 800kBK for 1.44MB floppies).) Ehhh! Ix nay! Hold on! No way man. I dont know any other way than to install from floppy. I have a single user machine, the only networking is ppp. Now, until someone whips up and installer like the one that comes with redhat, and installs it off the cdrom directly (w/o *any* floppy), then Ill be up a creek w/o the floppy intallation. Also, I generally only reinstall from scratch when my harddrive crashes. And I usually install Linux first, so I dont even have the comfortable base of dos to pull stuff off the cdrom and stuff. Even in dos, its a major pain to get the cdrom working. Show me a computer that can boot off a cdrom... and gimme a cdrom that will boot up debian... And Ill buy it like a shot. Or if anyone interested, make up a special ROM with kernel etc in it, so the machine will boot from ROM... Has anyone done this? Don Dibos -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
Show me a computer that can boot off a cdrom... and gimme a cdrom that will boot up debian... And Ill buy it like a shot. Most modern motherboards will boot an IDE CD-ROM in the El Torrito format. The Debian Official CD will boot into the installation system. No floppies, no LOADLIN, etc. Bruce -- Bruce Perens K6BP [EMAIL PROTECTED] 510-215-3502 Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP public key. PGP fingerprint = 88 6A 15 D0 65 D4 A3 A6 1F 89 6A 76 95 24 87 B3 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Editor wars considered harmful
Show me a computer that can boot off a cdrom... and gimme a cdrom that will boot up debian... And Ill buy it like a shot. Most modern motherboards will boot an IDE CD-ROM in the El Torrito format. The Debian Official CD will boot into the installation system. No floppies, no LOADLIN, etc. Bruce Where can I buy one? Neither CheapBytes nor Linux Systems Labs have made an Official CD yet because they are (apparently) waiting for us to release Debian 1.3.1 with Xfree86 3.3 and last I heard people didn't want 3.3 to go into stable... I know lsl has made TriLinux with 1.3, but that doesn't have ANY source and won't boot. -Erik -- Erik B. Andersen Web:http://www.inconnect.com/~andersen/ email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons-- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
