Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Rob Browning [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While I agree that Gnus is the best thing since sliced bread, keep in mind those in other countries where net access is *much* more expensive. I hardly think the duplicate messages represent a significant percentage of their bandwidth. For these people, deleting the duplicates after they download them is closing the barn door after the horses have eaten the chickens. More privacy for the horses. Guy -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On 17 Dec 1997, Guy Maor wrote: download them is closing the barn door after the horses have eaten the chickens. Horses are vegetarians anyway. Will -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | http://www.cis.udel.edu/~lowe/ | -- |If at first you don't succeed, redefine success. | | -- Taken from Hennesey and Patterson,| | _Computer_Organization_And_Design_:_The_Hardware_/_Software_Interface_ | -- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guy Maor) wrote on 16.12.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Gonzalo A. Diethelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps you could point out how I could force all of those people with broken mailers and/or ideas to use one of your great mail clients, so I won't get four, five, six or more duplicates of the messages sent to the list. Gnus. Remember there are people that can't stand Emacs. MfG Kai -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Kai == Kai Henningsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kai Remember there are people that can't stand Emacs. Bliss. :-) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On 18 Dec 1997, Kai Henningsen wrote: Remember there are people that can't stand Emacs. Strange... :) --- Turbo_ /// If there are no Amigas in heaven, send me to HELL! ^\\\/ Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! Turbo Fredriksson Tel: +46-704-697645 S-415 10 Göteborg[EMAIL PROTECTED] SWEDEN www5.tripnet.se/~turbo My PGP key can be found at: 'www5.tripnet.se/~turbo/pgp.html' Key fingerprint = B7 92 93 0E 06 94 D6 22 98 1F 0B 5B FE 33 A1 0B --- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On 18 Dec 1997, Kai Henningsen wrote: Remember there are people that can't stand Emacs. Strange... :) Nothing strange. After a couple of _years_ of struggling in attempts to learn emacs (I made about 6 attempts total) I found a *great* relief in... vi (vim actually). I was able to get used to it only after 2-nd attempt. And now, when vim-5.0 supports syntax highlighting, I am more then satisfied with it. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [Gonzalo A. Diethelm gonzo@ing.puc.cl] Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Alex Yukhimets [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When doing 'g'roup reply in elm, the e-mail of the person goes into the To: header and list address (along with all other thread participant's adresses) to Cc: header. So, umm, fix elm? -- James -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [Gonzalo A. Diethelm gonzo@ing.puc.cl] Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
James == James Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: James Alex Yukhimets [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When doing 'g'roup reply in elm, the e-mail of the person goes into the To: header and list address (along with all other thread participant's adresses) to Cc: header. James So, umm, fix elm? Or use `Gnus'. :-) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [Gonzalo A. Diethelm gonzo@ing.puc.cl] Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On 17-Dec-1997, James Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Yukhimets [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When doing 'g'roup reply in elm, the e-mail of the person goes into the To: header and list address (along with all other thread participant's adresses) to Cc: header. So, umm, fix elm? This isn't a solution. There are already fixed mailers, people aren't using them because they aren't even aware there is a problem. Debian doesn't just fix bugs, it provides mechanisms for those bug fixes to be send to where they are useful. Telling people in the web pages about the problems and recommending one of [gnus, mutt, other good mailer] *is* a solution. Munging reply-tos is another solution. Pick one. -- Tyson Dowd # If I'm unusually agressive in this email, it's # probably because USENET has been down here for [EMAIL PROTECTED]# over a week, and I'm missing my usual quota http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~trd # of flamewars. My apologies in advance. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Quoting Gonzalo A. Diethelm ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): You seem to be quite happy with the configuration as it is. Good for you. Perhaps you could point out how I could force all of those people with broken mailers and/or ideas to use one of your great mail clients, so I won't get four, five, six or more duplicates of the messages sent to the list. [snip] You offer no alternative whatsoever to those of us with a very real problem: net access is expensive for some people, and shorter download times mean money saved. Why don't you add the reply-to header to _your own_ email? Then you can have things the way you want them, and other people can do things the way they want. I see this as more fair than dictating a policy that a lot of people disagree with. -- Michael Stone, Sysadmin, ITRI PGP: key 1024/76556F95 from mit keyserver, [EMAIL PROTECTED]finger, or email with Subject: get pgp key -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Gonzalo A. Diethelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps you could point out how I could force all of those people with broken mailers and/or ideas to use one of your great mail clients, so I won't get four, five, six or more duplicates of the messages sent to the list. Gnus. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: [Gonzalo A. Diethelm gonzo@ing.puc.cl] Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On Tue 16 Dec 1997, Karl M. Hegbloom wrote: James == James Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: James Alex Yukhimets [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When doing 'g'roup reply in elm, the e-mail of the person goes into the To: header and list address (along with all other thread participant's adresses) to Cc: header. James So, umm, fix elm? Or use `Gnus'. :-) Or 'mutt'. That may be more familiar to those used to elm (most keystrokes are the same). Paul Slootman -- Can you get your operating system fixed when you need it? Linux - the supportable operating system. http://www.debian.org/support.html home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wurtel.demon.nl | Murphy Software, Enschede, the Netherlands -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Guy Maor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gnus. While I agree that Gnus is the best thing since sliced bread, keep in mind those in other countries where net access is *much* more expensive. For these people, deleting the duplicates after they download them is closing the barn door after the horses have eaten the chickens. -- Rob Browning [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP fingerprint = E8 0E 0D 04 F5 21 A0 94 53 2B 97 F5 D6 4E 39 30 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Tyson Dowd: A couple of us discussed this (and other problems with the mailing list), in the thread Duplicate messages on this list in debian-devel about a week ago and eventually came to a standstill where most people in the discussion were happy with the following solution: Set the mailing lists up so that the headers are munged in the following way: [deleted] Please let noone think that just because that absurd and awful suggestion was the last thing anyone said that everyone is happy with it. Rather, the rest of us have more important things to do than to fight battles with people with broken mailers and broken ideas about how mailers ought to work. The list configuration should be left the way it is. Ian. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Please let noone think that just because that absurd and awful suggestion was the last thing anyone said that everyone is happy with it. Rather, the rest of us have more important things to do than to fight battles with people with broken mailers and broken ideas about how mailers ought to work. The list configuration should be left the way it is. Ian. Ian, it is not that I want to change the mailing list headers at all cost or whatever, but could you please give some explanaion why you think this way? Thanks. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Alex Yukhimets wrote: Please let noone think that just because that absurd and awful suggestion was the last thing anyone said that everyone is happy with it. Rather, the rest of us have more important things to do than to fight battles with people with broken mailers and broken ideas about how mailers ought to work. The list configuration should be left the way it is. Ian. Ian, it is not that I want to change the mailing list headers at all cost or whatever, but could you please give some explanaion why you think this way? Please check out http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html . The page contains several arguments against the use of Reply-To. I fully agree to what Ian said. Thanks, Chris -- Christian Schwarz [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP-fp: 8F 61 EB 6D CF 23 CA D7 34 05 14 5C C8 DC 22 BA CS Software goes online! Visit our new home page at http://www.schwarz-online.com -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On 16-Dec-1997, Ian Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tyson Dowd: A couple of us discussed this (and other problems with the mailing list), in the thread Duplicate messages on this list in debian-devel about a week ago and eventually came to a standstill where most people in the discussion were happy with the following solution: Set the mailing lists up so that the headers are munged in the following way: [deleted] Please let noone think that just because that absurd and awful suggestion was the last thing anyone said that everyone is happy with it. Rather, the rest of us have more important things to do than to fight battles with people with broken mailers and broken ideas about how mailers ought to work. I'm sorry that you think a simple fix that would solve a potentially very embarrasing problem is too distateful to discuss. I have brought the matter up only when the current mail configuration has caused problems. I figured if it was important enough for Bruce to reply to the original poster and give a rap on the knuckles for jumping lists, then it's important enough to stop. If I've gone too far wasting people's time with these issues, I won't bring it up again - but I'd seriously recommend not using debian-private for anything that should remain private, until the world upgrades their mailers. Tyson. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
Christian Schwarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please check out http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html . The page contains several arguments against the use of Reply-To. I fully agree to what Ian said. I personally find header-munging of any sort distasteful, however I think a couple of points should be made clear: (1) a good mail client (e.g. a properly configured mutt) will give you the option of respecting reply-to, or ignoring it. (2) changing an existing reply-to to an x-reply-to is a fairly minor losage, given a good mail client. (3) a good mail client can thread duplicate replies together, making them easy to manage. A really good email client would probably have a mechanism for indicating that the previous message's author prefers to receive list mail only via the list address. Admittedly, this solution hasn't been designed, and debian-devel probably isn't the right place to design it, but it shouldn't be too hard to hack up mutt, gnus, and whatever other readers people like to support such a mechanism. I prefer to use reply to all recipients rather than reply to list. This is because I've been stung in cases where one of the recipients was not on the list I was replying to. Also, there are times when the list and/or the author's personal address have problems, and sending to both is just plain more robust. Anyways, a solution aimed at bad mail clients cannot be a solution (in my opinion). -- Raul -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On 16-Dec-1997, Christian Schwarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please check out http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html . The page contains several arguments against the use of Reply-To. I fully agree to what Ian said. Please don't quote this URL as if all the issues in this web page haven't already been discussed. Just because it's on a web page and uses the trendy considered harmful phrase doesn't mean it's relevant, and doesn't mean it's right. The reply-to munging solution is unfairly attacked, while the current configuration has at least as many drawbacks. The fact is, the current mail RFCs are not designed to cope with mailing lists. New mailers do a better job, but when we have new mail standards that have better mailing list support, their solutions will be considered impure too. I've also presented another solution, which is to just clearly document the problems on the web pages, so that developers are aware they need to be careful, and they should upgrade their software. I've offered to do the work for this solution, but haven't receieved any feedback on whether it should be done or not (I am truly more interested in stopping the various mail problems than winning any arguments). Tyson. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
On Dec 16, 1997, at 11:22, Ian Jackson wrote: Tyson Dowd: A couple of us discussed this (and other problems with the mailing list), in the thread Duplicate messages on this list in debian-devel about a week ago and eventually came to a standstill where most people in the discussion were happy with the following solution: Set the mailing lists up so that the headers are munged in the following way: [deleted] Please let noone think that just because that absurd and awful suggestion was the last thing anyone said that everyone is happy with it. Rather, the rest of us have more important things to do than to fight battles with people with broken mailers and broken ideas about how mailers ought to work. The list configuration should be left the way it is. You seem to be quite happy with the configuration as it is. Good for you. Perhaps you could point out how I could force all of those people with broken mailers and/or ideas to use one of your great mail clients, so I won't get four, five, six or more duplicates of the messages sent to the list. The amended suggestion that I replied with a little earlier seemed to please everyone, even those recalcitrant types who wouldn't hear about adding Reply-To headers to the messages. You offer no alternative whatsoever to those of us with a very real problem: net access is expensive for some people, and shorter download times mean money saved. So, again, I vote for applying the suggestion mentioned before. Not on philosophical grounds, but because of very practical reasons. Ian. -- Gonzalo Diethelm # Windows 95: n. 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for [EMAIL PROTECTED] # a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally =Debian Linux= # coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit www.debian.org # company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
[Gonzalo A. Diethelm gonzo@ing.puc.cl] Re: Moving topics from debian-private (was Re: SPI money out)
--- Start of forwarded message --- Resent-Date: 16 Dec 1997 22:24:45 - Resent-Cc: recipient list not shown: ; Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:38:16 -0300 Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Gonzalo A. Diethelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ian Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Debian developers list debian-devel@lists.debian.org [ ... ] --- End of forwarded message --- [Note the Cc: to iwj, despite the fact he's obviously on debian-devel] Interesting to note that those whining about duplicate mails and advocating the Reply-To munging are themselves creating duplicates. -- James -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
