Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 11:59:32AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: and he will try to harm any other people is someone tell him that it helps USA. His approach is completely nationalistic. You cannot understand him and agree with him until he drops this attitude or until you adopt it. Considering I am an Indian, this is getting hilarious; the US is merely my country of adoption. Actually, I am given to understand that many immigrants are more passionate nationalists about their adopted country than native-born folks are of their default country. This makes sense when once considers that many immigrants to a country have to make some sort of sacrifice to get there and stay there, which makes them more likely to seek justifications for their decision. It's human nature; people are passionate about their choice of automobile or computer for similar reasons -- they represent a relatively large outlay of capital (or a relatively large assumption of debt), and people are loath to second-guess their decisions under such circumstances, lest they be characterized as suckers. Look at the example of Ayn Rand, for instance. (Not saying you're a nationalist, Manoj.) -- G. Branden Robinson| Debian GNU/Linux | Please do not look directly into [EMAIL PROTECTED] | laser with remaining eye. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpQh1kC61I4f.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 07:39:07PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Notice that the US governement never said that was their aim, they said Iraq was dangerous because they have mass destruction weapons and support terrorism, which has turned out to be blatant lie. The french governement opposed this, because they felt that the UNO investigators were enough to prove that Iraq had (or had not) mass destruction weapons. (Sigh, hopelessly off-topic.) My theory: Britain and the U.S. wanted to invade Iraq so that oil contracts more favorable to large petroleum companies that strongly influence their governments could be written. France and Russia wanted to preserve the status quo because large petroleum companies that strongly influence their governments already *had* very favorable oil contracts. Yes, It Really Was All About Oil. All this talk of principle, self-determination, brutal dicators, and inspections was window-dressing and a distraction from the real issues. The only people who felt deeply about it were the people who had no real power over the situation, like protestors in the streets. It was also a case of Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss. Iraq was largely run by oil companies and will continue to be for the forseeable future. All that have or will change are the logos on the employees' uniforms. The Americans and the French aren't so different. Just ask the Vietnamese. -- G. Branden Robinson|You can have my PGP passphrase when Debian GNU/Linux |you pry it from my cold, dead [EMAIL PROTECTED] |brain. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |-- Adam Thornton pgp8x5JugW9VL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Not saying you're a nationalist, Manoj.) Even worse, you're comparing him to Ayn Rand! -Miles -- I distrust a research person who is always obviously busy on a task. --Robert Frosch, VP, GM Research
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Joe Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? Me, for one. I wouldn't touch American soil with a ten foot pole. On the other hand, Vancouver is an amazing city, I would go there in a heartbeat. Regards, --Daniel F. O'Neill
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, 25 May 2003, Sven Luther wrote: So let me get this straight. Instead of a country where people are occasionally subject to bureaucratic hassles, (assuming Russell and Geordies' sources amount to anything more than innuendo which is not clear.) you would rather go to a place where the immigration policy consists of shooting people? And you do have proof of that claim, do you ? Or did you only gather that from a bunch of James Bond movies ? Friendly, Sven Luther I could swear there are more examples but a very quick google search only turned up this[1] from 1993. Perhaps now things have changed and now you only get shot for staying _in_ Cuba[2]. [1] http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/us.rips.cruelty.html [2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/cuba/story/0,11983,944925,00.html -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: The West coast may be more expensive to get to for foreign visitors. But I like the other suggestion of Florida. Lot's of cheap flights to there. i live on the west coast (san diego, specifically), but if there was a debconf held in southern florida (fort lauderdale, specifically) i would do my damndest to get there. -john, one of the rarest of breeds: a native floridian
Re: Debian conference in the US?
John H. Robinson, IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: this is entirely off topic for -devel, let's move it to -politics or -curiosa or somewhere else more appropriate. But you just _had_ to get your bitter little rant in first, huh? -Miles -- Ich bin ein Virus. Mach' mit und kopiere mich in Deine .signature.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 10:03:38AM -0700, John H. Robinson, IV wrote: that north america contains not one, but three countries: Candada, USA, and Mexico Candada? Is that near Canadia? --Adam -- Adam McKenna [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Mon, May 26, 2003 at 12:05:02AM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Sven Luther wrote: So let me get this straight. Instead of a country where people are occasionally subject to bureaucratic hassles, (assuming Russell and Geordies' sources amount to anything more than innuendo which is not clear.) you would rather go to a place where the immigration policy consists of shooting people? And you do have proof of that claim, do you ? Or did you only gather that from a bunch of James Bond movies ? Friendly, Sven Luther I could swear there are more examples but a very quick google search only turned up this[1] from 1993. Perhaps now things have changed and now you only get shot for staying _in_ Cuba[2]. No more than you get shot by living in the US. I know people who have been in cuba, and they report no such things, and they also don't just stayed in the hotels. The articles you mention was about people dying when trying to leave their country to emigrate to the US. It was an isolatedact, even the US official cited in the article told this, and still, are you sure it was so or is it just desinformation ? Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 03:36:39PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: On Sat, 24 May 2003, Adam Majer wrote: PS. Personally, I would prefer to travel for a DebConf in Cuba than in US. Really. So let me get this straight. Instead of a country where people are occasionally subject to bureaucratic hassles, (assuming Russell and Geordies' sources amount to anything more than innuendo which is not clear.) you would rather go to a place where the immigration policy consists of shooting people? No need for innuendo :). My sources are recent news reports of journalists covering a trade show who were jailed and removed from the country, in four cases out of six *after* they had been granted admission to the US. This is of interest to someone organizing a similar conference in the US. You'd at least want to warn journalists that they had best hire an immigration lawyer to ensure that their papers were in order. My preferences for a location for a DebConf are Vancouver and Seattle. Cuba would be a nice place for a vacation. I doubt I would be able to attend, although it would be a snap to organize a charter flight from Montreal or Toronto. Geordie.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 09:57:50PM -0500, Adam Majer wrote: PS. Personally, I would prefer to travel for a DebConf in Cuba than in US. Really. Who wouldn't? You got the sun, the beaches and the ocean... what more could you ask for than a debconf on a beach? -- Duncan Findlay pgpeaqvWUV3fv.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sat, 24 May 2003 08:43:12 +1000 (EST), Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2003 22:39:02 +1000, Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. I see. You all are personally taking action to make it harder for my friends and relatives to find a job, or get decent health care (my ex-boss has been looking for employment for 27 months now, and my step daughter does not have a job with benefits), and you expect me to have sympathy for your views? Do you have a better way of encougaging the U.S.A. to take an alternate stance? Try by not blackmailing us. Remember, the rest of the world does *not* owe you and yours a living. Quite. But if they take delibrate action to hurt _any_ country, or its economy, they shall have to live with the consequences. manoj -- Knowledge without common sense is folly. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003 20:01:48 -0500, Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Not at all. I know that if your economy suffers, mine suffers doubly so. Mexico is so heavily dependent on the US economy that if you enter a mild recession we are in crisis... And it is not nice at all. The fact that you gladly embrace self flagellation changes my view of your actions not one whit, really. manoj -- To a New Yorker, all Californians are blond, even the blacks. There are, in fact, whole neighborhoods that are zoned only for blond people. The only way to tell the difference between California and Sweden is that the Swedes speak better English. From East vs. West: The War Between the Coasts Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 12:04:43AM -0400, Duncan Findlay wrote: On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 09:57:50PM -0500, Adam Majer wrote: PS. Personally, I would prefer to travel for a DebConf in Cuba than in US. Really. Who wouldn't? You got the sun, the beaches and the ocean... what more could you ask for than a debconf on a beach? And it must be way cheaper too. Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sunday 25 May 2003 07:27, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Remember, the rest of the world does *not* owe you and yours a living. Quite. But if they take delibrate action to hurt _any_ country, or its economy, they shall have to live with the consequences. And what is US trying to do to France, right at the moment ? -- I have sampled every language, french is my favorite. Fantastic language, especially to curse with. Nom de dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'enculé de ta mère. It's like wiping your ass with silk! I love it. -- The Merovingian, in the Matrix Reloaded
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Saturday 24 May 2003 00:43, Matthew Palmer wrote: * The rest of the world is sick to death of US imperialism; * The US government ignores world opinion and does it's thing; * The rest of the world puts pressure on the US people to change things, since they've at least got half a chance to make changes; * The US people make the change, or live with the consequences of not changing. Considering this - http://www.newamericancentury.org/ , do you really think something can change before a government change in the US ? (hint: take a look at the names in the page Statement of Principles) And considering how Bush was elected [1] [2], do you really think a real government change can happen ? Mike [1] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060392452/ref=pd_gw_qpt_1//103-6886560-6531804?v=glance [2] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1573929727/qid=1053855921/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-6886560-6531804?v=glances=books -- I have sampled every language, french is my favorite. Fantastic language, especially to curse with. Nom de dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'enculé de ta mère. It's like wiping your ass with silk! I love it. -- The Merovingian, in the Matrix Reloaded
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Mike Hommey [EMAIL PROTECTED] a tapoté : On Sunday 25 May 2003 07:27, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Remember, the rest of the world does *not* owe you and yours a living. Quite. But if they take delibrate action to hurt _any_ country, or its economy, they shall have to live with the consequences. And what is US trying to do to France, right at the moment ? I personally think that discussing about nations with Manoj here is a complete waste of time. He said that he would follow his leaders whatever they do, because they are american. Isn't it clear? He will hate someone that try to harm USA, without at any moment trying to guess why, and he will try to harm any other people is someone tell him that it helps USA. His approach is completely nationalistic. You cannot understand him and agree with him until he drops this attitude or until you adopt it. Free software is fascinating: so many people so different contribute to a same project... despite the fact that they think completely differently on other issues. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On 25 May 2003 12:20:45 +0200, Mathieu Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Mike Hommey [EMAIL PROTECTED] a tapoté : On Sunday 25 May 2003 07:27, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Remember, the rest of the world does *not* owe you and yours a living. Quite. But if they take delibrate action to hurt _any_ country, or its economy, they shall have to live with the consequences. And what is US trying to do to France, right at the moment ? I personally think that discussing about nations with Manoj here is a complete waste of time. He said that he would follow his leaders whatever they do, because they are american. This is a lie, really, and bordering on slander. I do not subscribeto My nation, right or wrong. Indeeed, I lean democrat rather than republican, and I like Gore; I consider the election of the current president a disaster that the american people have to endure and survive. Isn't it clear? He will hate someone that try to harm USA, Un;less your logic fails you, that is entirely different. The ends do not justify the means; and in any case if the means is punching me in the nose; you should expect vigorous defense. without at any moment trying to guess why, You punch my nose, I am not going to pat you on the back because your cause is just. I think most people like to hide behind the cloak that they are not punching people in the face, and they are hurting an amophous economy. Economies are made of the blood, sweat and tears of real live people, and they are the hooks on which dreams are hung. When you set out to deliberately hurt an economy, you are hurting men, women, and children, that live and die in that economic system, and he will try to harm any other people is someone tell him that it helps USA. His approach is completely nationalistic. You cannot understand him and agree with him until he drops this attitude or until you adopt it. Considering I am an Indian, this is getting hilarious; the US is merely my country of adoption. You are missing the point by a mile. This is not nationalism -- this is merely protection of ones own -- you are asking for common cause in trying to hurt people I know and love; and I am rejecting this common cause vehemently. Have you seen US developers try to raise common cause here to boycott French products and conferences in France (because of what some consider their silly stnace in removing a dictator from power)? No? How many of you would consider that unacceptable? Why is is it that is accetable to use this form as an attack platform against Americans? Free software is fascinating: so many people so different contribute to a same project... despite the fact that they think completely differently on other issues. Quite. manoj -- Katz' Law: Men and nations will act rationally when all other possibilities have been exhausted. History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. Abba Eban Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 11:59:32AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Have you seen US developers try to raise common cause here to boycott French products and conferences in France (because of what some consider their silly stnace in removing a dictator from power)? No? How many of you would consider that unacceptable? Why is is it that is accetable to use this form as an attack platform against Americans? Notice that the US governement never said that was their aim, they said Iraq was dangerous because they have mass destruction weapons and support terrorism, which has turned out to be blatant lie. The french governement opposed this, because they felt that the UNO investigators were enough to prove that Iraq had (or had not) mass destruction weapons. They also said that if the aim of the US would be to remove a dictator from power, then this would be another discussion, and the french stance would maybe have been different, but the US did no speak of that. Also, Manoj, you have not to be afraid of the US economy being hurt an hurting your family since it will assuredly improve a lot in the next time, with the irakian loot, err oil that is, and the markets attributed to USian companies (who will pay for them anyway, i had the impression that the US governement wanted for the UNO to provide the reconstruction money which will line Bush's friend pocket in the end). Anyway, i don't hear you protesting against the US governement actively hurting economies the world over, exporting their depression with the low dollar value, and so on. Maybe you are not so adverse of hurting other people's family in order to protect yours ? Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] a tapoté : On 25 May 2003 12:20:45 +0200, Mathieu Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Mike Hommey [EMAIL PROTECTED] a tapoté : On Sunday 25 May 2003 07:27, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Remember, the rest of the world does *not* owe you and yours a living. Quite. But if they take delibrate action to hurt _any_ country, or its economy, they shall have to live with the consequences. And what is US trying to do to France, right at the moment ? I personally think that discussing about nations with Manoj here is a complete waste of time. He said that he would follow his leaders whatever they do, because they are american. This is a lie, really, and bordering on slander. I do not subscribeto My nation, right or wrong. Indeeed, I lean democrat rather than republican, and I like Gore; I consider the election of the current president a disaster that the american people have to endure and survive. Isn't it clear? He will hate someone that try to harm USA, Un;less your logic fails you, that is entirely different. The ends do not justify the means; I'm glad to read that. I'm glad of to see that I was wrong about you but what you previously wrote lead, IMHO, to this kind of confusion. For instance you wrote: _You_ may live in a country where you may be ashamed to defend your friends and loved ones, but I do not. I do, however, pity you: If you think that when people express a desire to hurt your relatives, you need to feel ashamed if you raise a voice in protest, you really should get the heck out of your country. Which means basically that you'll support any action of your government if it implies an aggressive reaction. If your country drop a H-Bomb on Paris, the fight back will be the expression of a desire to hurt your relatives to stop your government. And supporting your government in this perspective is clearly a nationalistic approach. While naturally we care more about our friends and family than to other people, while there is no shame to defend your friends and loved ones, it can be a shame if your defense constitute an oppression. To say it more clearly, Ben Laden dropped an airplane on innocent people. But if he got so many people happy to die for him, it's also because the people from where he comes from is very poor (the people, not the country) and think they are defending their friend and loved one. The difference between aggression and defense is frequently questionable. For instance, if you read Tite-Live (Roman nationalist from I BC / I AC) you'll read him explaining that the Roman empire was only a defense, not an aggression in any way. While I do not think that boycott is often a good choice -it does not change things frequently-, you have to accept that as a personal choice (not helping a country leads by people doing things you despise), not as an aggression on your friends and beloved ones. and in any case if the means is punching me in the nose; you should expect vigorous defense. As I said, people are not punching you in the nose but saying 'I do not like this policy, I cannot contribute'. I personally buy the less as possible products manufactured by companies known to rape human rights. By doing that, I'm not trying to harm W**t D*sn** employees but trying to avoid contributing to harm done in China. without at any moment trying to guess why, You punch my nose, I am not going to pat you on the back because your cause is just. I think most people like to hide behind the cloak that they are not punching people in the face, and they are hurting an amophous economy. Economies are made of the blood, sweat and tears of real live people, and they are the hooks on which dreams are hung. When you set out to deliberately hurt an economy, you are hurting men, women, and children, that live and die in that economic system, It happened that employees gone on strike to earn some respect and money to get a decent life. It was breaking an economy made on their blood and tears, on their very real life. While breaking economy finally harm people, considering economy before humans definitely harm people much more. and he will try to harm any other people is someone tell him that it helps USA. His approach is completely nationalistic. You cannot understand him and agree with him until he drops this attitude or until you adopt it. Considering I am an Indian, this is getting hilarious; the US is merely my country of adoption. Yes. And you would not find any romans (400-50 BC) more conservative than most homo novus (members of the senate we do not have any father already senator ; very rare, as in any other oligarchy). Adoption sometimes push people to be more royalist than the king (it's a French expression, I'm not sure it can be translated literally). You are missing the point by a mile. This is not nationalism
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003, Don Armstrong wrote: On Fri, 23 May 2003, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: My only objection to a conference in the US is the weather is miserable. Which part of the US? Sorry I should have said Northeast US. It's absolutely miserable here. Surely the weather in Los Angeles isn't miserable... unless you consider the total absense of weather to be miserable. The West coast may be more expensive to get to for foreign visitors. But I like the other suggestion of Florida. Lot's of cheap flights to there. But it's all up to the organizers in the end isn't it? -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, 25 May 2003, Sven Luther wrote: Notice that the US governement never said that was their aim, The aim is Kralizec -- the typhoon struggle. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sat, 24 May 2003, Adam Majer wrote: PS. Personally, I would prefer to travel for a DebConf in Cuba than in US. Really. So let me get this straight. Instead of a country where people are occasionally subject to bureaucratic hassles, (assuming Russell and Geordies' sources amount to anything more than innuendo which is not clear.) you would rather go to a place where the immigration policy consists of shooting people? -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 03:36:39PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: On Sat, 24 May 2003, Adam Majer wrote: PS. Personally, I would prefer to travel for a DebConf in Cuba than in US. Really. So let me get this straight. Instead of a country where people are occasionally subject to bureaucratic hassles, (assuming Russell and Geordies' sources amount to anything more than innuendo which is not clear.) you would rather go to a place where the immigration policy consists of shooting people? s/Immigration/Emigration/ ? You do realize that US is pretty much the only country that still has an embargo againt Cuba? Of course they would not do the same to China.. H.. And why could that be? 2 commandments of Politics: 1. follow the money 2. see #1 Anyway, this is getting very off-topic Back to Debian. A!! - Adam
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 03:36:39PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: On Sat, 24 May 2003, Adam Majer wrote: PS. Personally, I would prefer to travel for a DebConf in Cuba than in US. Really. So let me get this straight. Instead of a country where people are occasionally subject to bureaucratic hassles, (assuming Russell and Geordies' sources amount to anything more than innuendo which is not clear.) you would rather go to a place where the immigration policy consists of shooting people? And you do have proof of that claim, do you ? Or did you only gather that from a bunch of James Bond movies ? Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, 25 May 2003, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. I see. You all are personally taking action to make it harder for my friends and relatives to find a job, or get decent health care (my ex-boss has been looking for employment for 27 months now, and my step daughter does not have a job with benefits), and you expect me to have sympathy for your views? Do you have a better way of encougaging the U.S.A. to take an alternate stance? Try by not blackmailing us. Wish to elaborate on that one a little? I'm finding it hard to work out how not blackmailing you is going to encourage the U.S.A. to rethink it's policies. Remember, the rest of the world does *not* owe you and yours a living. Quite. But if they take delibrate action to hurt _any_ country, or its economy, they shall have to live with the consequences. Boycott us back. Considering the US government screws .au at every opportunity, I doubt we'd even notice. -- --- #include disclaimer.h Matthew Palmer, Geek In Residence http://ieee.uow.edu.au/~mjp16
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sat, 24 May 2003 09:51, Alan Shutko wrote: The citizens of the US have a little more power than the rest of the world, in that you have a *vote* as to who gets to fuck the rest of the world. Well, didn't work that way last time... They got their second choice. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 03:14:48PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: My only objection to a conference in the US is the weather is miserable. I want to go somewhere warm! Debian MiniConf @ Linux.conf.au, January 2004. http://conf.linux.org.au/. Speakers lined up for the main conference (which tends to draw around 300-400 people) apparently include Tridge, Rusty, Bdale, Keith Packard, Maddog, Rasmus and Havoc Pennington; the call for papers will probably come out in a month or two. The Debian miniconf drew ~50 people in 2002 and ~100 this year. Please direct criticism of Australian foreign policy to /dev/null or your local MP. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``Dear Anthony Towns: [...] Congratulations -- you are now certified as a Red Hat Certified Engineer!'' pgpVE5yPh7rup.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 06:15:48PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote: Hi Greg, Now that you've got this release out, have you given any thought to the message I sent earlier about merging gdb server versions? Kindly get this on-topic shit out of this off-topic thread. ;-) -- G. Branden Robinson| If God had intended for man to go Debian GNU/Linux | about naked, we would have been [EMAIL PROTECTED] | born that way. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpLrtb7Jybqw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 08:55:31PM -0700, Marc Singer wrote: This doesn't mean that we should not have a Debian conference in North America. I'm sure there are many North American DDs who'd like to meet more DDs in person. Having a conference in the US or Canada is not an endorsement of US foreign policy. You all probably know that there are some serious privacy issues involved in traveling to the US. Carriers are forced to pass all their information about the passengeres on to the US authorities, including: previous connecting flight, place of orginal departure, requests for special food (read: non pork), credit card information and other personal information. -- René Seindal ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://sights.seindal.dk/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Please take all of these political screeds off -devel!! Regards. Bob -- _ |_) _ |_Robert D. Hilliard[EMAIL PROTECTED] |_) (_) |_) 1294 S.W. Seagull Way [EMAIL PROTECTED] Palm City, FL 34990 USA GPG Key ID: 390D6559
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Russell Coker wrote: On Sat, 24 May 2003 09:51, Alan Shutko wrote: The citizens of the US have a little more power than the rest of the world, in that you have a *vote* as to who gets to fuck the rest of the world. Well, didn't work that way last time... They got their second choice. I never chose Little Napolean and he wasn't on my alternate list either. Please stop assuming everyone in a given country actually agrees with what their government has done or is doing. This is the most distressing aspect of this thread: Debian is (supposed to be) a group of intelligent, like-minded individuals whose individual nationality or origin is largely irrelevent. There should be only 2 requirements for a conference: someone is willing to sponsor it, and enough people are willing to come to make it worthwhile. This idea that conference locations need to be vetted based on the politics of the host country is dangerous and stupid. What Debian is about has nothing to do with individual nations or their politics. We should be better than this.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, 25 May 2003 02:24, Ed Cogburn wrote: Well, didn't work that way last time... They got their second choice. I never chose Little Napolean and he wasn't on my alternate list either. Something between 49% and 50% of US voters wanted the Shrub as president. Please stop assuming everyone in a given country actually agrees with what their government has done or is doing. This is the most I don't assume that everyone agrees, just the 49.X% that voted for him. distressing aspect of this thread: Debian is (supposed to be) a group of intelligent, like-minded individuals whose individual nationality or origin is largely irrelevent. There should be only 2 requirements for a conference: someone is willing to sponsor it, and enough people are willing to come to make it worthwhile. Which is what I have said, repeatedly. This idea that conference locations need to be vetted based on the politics of the host country is dangerous and stupid. What Debian is about has nothing to do with individual nations or their politics. We should be better than this. Be glad that I never suggested that the conference be held outside the US for this reason. Someone asked why people would want to decline an opportunity to visit the US. I answered the question. A bunch of USians started jumping up and down and the thread has continued ever since. The most amusing thing was that no USian even bothered to ask me whether I am implementing such a boycot myself, they just made their assumptions and jumped into the flame-war. My purchases of US products have not changed of recent times, they only things from the US that I want are made by Intel, AMD, IBM, and Ford. Three of those companies have no viable non-US competition. For avoiding entering the US there are better reasons such as the following: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1689.htm -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't assume that everyone agrees, just the 49.X% that voted for him. This figure is not as meaningful as it might seem; we still use a non-preferential voting system, in which votes for non-mainstream candidates are effectively wasted. :-/ The most amusing thing was that no USian even bothered to ask me whether I am implementing such a boycot myself, they just made their assumptions and jumped into the flame-war. Toward the beginning of the thread, I specifically asked who would actually be unwilling to show up, as opposed to merely knowing other developers with that stance. -- Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org) Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT a valid e-mail address) for more info.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
* Aaron M. Ucko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030519 04:26]: What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days? I would rather not come.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003, Andreas Schuldei wrote: What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days? I would rather not come. Neither would I. Given what happened to Sklyarov, I don't fancy going to the USA at all. And like many others, I won't object, I merely won't attend. Sam. -- Sam Hocevar [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sam.zoy.org/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 03:32:57AM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: For avoiding entering the US there are better reasons such as the following: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1689.htm May 20, 2003. French reporters covering Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) arrested, forcibly repatriated: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9609 http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=6909
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sat, May 24, 2003 at 07:46:53PM -0400, Geordie Birch wrote: On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 03:32:57AM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: For avoiding entering the US there are better reasons such as the following: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1689.htm May 20, 2003. French reporters covering Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) arrested, forcibly repatriated: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=9609 http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=6909 Oh my god. The last time I heard this was the shocking news from Baghdad when CNN got thrown out by Saddam for not having the new press visas. There are even reports that Canadian citizens that have darker skins are discriminated against. There was one _Canadian_ citizen that got arrested in the US because he didn't have a visa [NOTE: Canadians do not need visas to enter US and vice versa] He was then deported to Sudan because apparently he immigrated from there to Canada a two or three decades ago. My parents got searched _twice_ (yes, including shoes!!) in the states. They were going back home from Europe and they had to catch a connecting flight in Miniapolis, Minnesota. Maybe it's just me, but it appears that people have less freedom now if they travel to US, then when you travelled to 1970s Soviet Union. Land of the free, lol. - Adam PS. Personally, I would prefer to travel for a DebConf in Cuba than in US. Really.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Perhaps we can look at this a different way. I haven't read anyone voicing the opinion that GWB (can't say the name of the beast out loud) is a 'good fellow'. I'm supposing that all of us agree that he's a snake-oil salesmen of the odious kind, interested most in lining his pockets and the pockets of his pals at the expense of the majority of US citizens as well as international citizens. He is a ignorant bully whose opinions and actions don't represent me or my cohort. Yet, it is reasonable to take personal representing our feelings. There are folks who don't want to contribute an earned farthing to the US economy. So be it. This doesn't mean that we should not have a Debian conference in North America. I'm sure there are many North American DDs who'd like to meet more DDs in person. Having a conference in the US or Canada is not an endorsement of US foreign policy. It seems to me that the best place to have the conference in NA is where we get support. Should there be equal support in, for example, Vancouver and DC, then we can weigh merits. If we host it out of the US, then at least we can keep our shoes on. What do you think of the boycots of French products? Do you oppose them on principle? I just bought some french-cut green beans. %^)
Re: Debian conference in the US?
(Unintentionally, I first sent the reply to you directly.) On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 02:09:24PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: Incidentally North America != USA. And your point is, what? A Canadian conference would be in North America and satisfy the objections of people who don't like the US, however it may be too far for some USians to travel. There is no forseeable future where everyone is satisfied. I just bought some french-cut green beans. %^) Probably not from France. Canada.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 08:55:31PM -0700, Marc Singer wrote: Perhaps we can look at this a different way. I haven't read anyone voicing the opinion that GWB (can't say the name of the beast out loud) is a 'good fellow'. Probably because it's completely off topic for this mailing list. Take it to soc.politics or somewhere already. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. ``Dear Anthony Towns: [...] Congratulations -- you are now certified as a Red Hat Certified Engineer!''
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Aaron M. Ucko wrote: While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? I do. Even though the US may be an interesting country for holidays, its government has plastered so many limitations and violations of human rights that I don't believe I'll ever visit the US again. The DMCA is one problem. Surveillance and misuing personal data, e.g. gained from the flight agencies are another one. International politics is right another problem I dislike too much. I rather stay a free person in a free country. I don't object to a DebConf held in the U.S., though, but many people will probably not even attend if somebody pays for their flight. However, I would like DebConf's to be helt outside of the U.S. Regards, Joey -- WARNING: Do not execute! This call violates patent DE10108564. http://www.elug.de/projekte/patent-party/patente/DE10108564 wget -O patinfo-`date +%Y%m%d`.html http://patinfo.ffii.org/ Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Martin Schulze wrote: Aaron M. Ucko wrote: While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? I do. Even though the US may be an interesting country for holidays, its government has plastered so many limitations and violations of human rights that I don't believe I'll ever visit the US again. That's funny considering just how many people are risking their LIVES to get here. Then again, maybe its not, maybe its an insult to the ones who've died trying to get here over the years. The DMCA is one problem. One which is not just a US headache. The EU Copyright Directive is coming next, so where will all you Europeans run to when that law eventually comes into force? Greed among businesses is universal, there are plenty of European companies who love that Copyright Directive and are pushing it hard. Yes, I know, only two EU members have enacted it so far, but there is too much Big Money behind it for it to fail, its just a matter of time (according to the 2 articles I read). BTW, you are aware the DMCA lost its last case in court over here, right? The story is not over, my gut says it will at least be amended eventually. Surveillance and misuing personal data, e.g. gained from the flight agencies are another one. And this is also only a US problem? What about the public surveillance camaras in Britian and elsewhere? You think the Isrealis are laissez faire when it comes to who they allow on their planes? Big Brother is a problem everywhere, its only a problem here now because 9/11 was used as an excuse for a power grab. We have an independent judiciary that will eventually decide if they've grabbed too much. International politics is right another problem I dislike too much. One bad President and all of America is suddenly evil? At most he has only about 6 more years, and there's a real chance it will only be about 2, but you've already written us all off huh, even though this President didn't even win the majority vote, you're lumping us all together as miscreants with no chance at salvation? I dislike politics period, all governments tend to behave selfishly, erratically, and stupidly, but that doesn't mean I'm going to draw up a DO-NOT-VISIT-THIS-COUNTRY-BECAUSE-I-DON'T-LIKE-THEIR-LEADER list. That's just silly. I rather stay a free person in a free country. So do I, and I like it just where I am. So do we REALLY want to turn this thread into yet another exercise in America bashing? If someone wants to sponsor a conference here, FINE, let them, for heaven's sakes! Most of the ones doing the bitching here would likely not come anyway because of the expense of getting here. And if the Europeans want to have a conference of their own, FINE, let them, for heaven's sake! Most Americans won't come not because we're boycotting French Fries, but because WE can't afford the travel either. Its not like there is some rule that says we can only have one conference at a time. This whole thread is getting ridiculous.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Glenn McGrath [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 22 May 2003 12:20:39 -0500 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clue all of you in: anyone who takes a stand and tries to hurt the US economy, I see as a taking action inimical to me, and my loved ones, and I do *NOT* see that as friendly action. What you say is just bad, bad, bad, and you should be ashamed. Did you forget to take logic while you were in school? In the least it implies you personally are only friendly with people when you are taking their money. In other words, you dont have any true friends. No, Manoj isn't implying that at all. He said that if an individual is taking a stand to hurt the US economy, he views that as an unfriendly action. He can certainly be friends with people who aren't giving him money, but if someone has the intent I'm going to take certain actions to hurt their economy and hope they learn a lesson that's not friendly. On the Australia-US trade deal thats being worked on. If it worked out to be better for Australia than for the US, would you bear a grudge against all individual Australians ? See your below comment on separation between between governments and individuals. If the trade deal turned out to help Australia more than it helped the US, who cares... we're still doing better. If the trade deal _hurt_ the US while helping Australia, I'd be far more likely to bear a grudge against the US politicians who negotiated it, because it's pretty likely that they screwed the rest of us for something that helped them out. There is a layer of abstraction been government and people, any action by or against your government is not necesarily an action from or against individual US'ians. Yes, and that's what you seem to be missing. The US economy is huge mass of individuals. Hurting the economy will certainly hurt individual US'ians more than it will hurt anyone involved in government (because those in government are usually independantly wealthy). So people intent on harming the US economy are intent individuals. This seems much the same rationale as spam fighters... trying to hurt innocents in hopes they'll rise up and convince their ISP to take some action. Except with spam all that's lost is some mail... taking deliberate actions to hurt an economy can destroy families. I hope you can see the obvious flaws in your comments, and can learn from your mistakes. Ditto. -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am the rocks. Looking for a developer in St. Louis? http://web.springies.com/~ats/ I am Tigger of Borg! HooHooHoo...Assimilatin's what Tiggers do best!
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Marc Singer wrote: (Unintentionally, I first sent the reply to you directly.) On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 02:09:24PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: Incidentally North America != USA. And your point is, what? that north america contains not one, but three countries: Candada, USA, and Mexico i'm a seppo (read: citizen of the USA), and it grates my ears each time i hear American equated with citizen of USA. there are lots of people that are americans, that come from North America, Central America, and South America. i do have a better word for US citizen, but it is so rarely used, no one would understand it: Usian. for now, i will continue to use seppo, or gringo, depending upon my mood and whom i am talking to (if speaking with mexicans, i am usually a gringo). this is entirely off topic for -devel, let's move it to -politics or -curiosa or somewhere else more appropriate. -john
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:21:05 +1000, Glenn McGrath [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 22 May 2003 12:20:39 -0500 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clue all of you in: anyone who takes a stand and tries to hurt the US economy, I see as a taking action inimical to me, and my loved ones, and I do *NOT* see that as friendly action. What you say is just bad, bad, bad, and you should be ashamed. Ah yes. Argument by assertion. _You_ may live in a country where you may be ashamed to defend your friends and loved ones, but I do not. I do, however, pity you: If you think that when people express a desire to hurt your relatives, you need to feel ashamed if you raise a voice in protest, you really should get the heck out of your country. In the least it implies you personally are only friendly with people when you are taking their money. In other words, you dont have any true friends. Ah. Either you can't read, or you have absolutely no concept of logic. In either case this discussion is doomed; but let me try an exercise in futility. I said If you are acting in a desire to hurt my loved ones by hurting an already fragile economy, I see this action as inimical. How you got from there to ascribing mercenary motivations to me is beyond me. On the Australia-US trade deal thats being worked on. If it worked out to be better for Australia than for the US, would you bear a grudge against all individual Australians ? If it was more benificial to the US would you be friendlier to Australians ? If you can't distinguish between a trade deal (which usually is biased one way or the other) and an stated intention to harm my economy, I suggest you also need introductory courses in economic theory. If your countrymen share that sort of attitute it explains why the USA is in so many wars. Yeah. We rarely suffer fools gladly. There is a layer of abstraction been government and people, any action by or against your government is not necesarily an action from or against individual US'ians. But the intention was not to protest the actions of my government, or to act against it in the UN. It was to get down and try to hurt my friends and family by hurting the economy that nurtures us, in the hope that we shall be blackmailed into changing our government. I do not like coercion. I hope you can see the obvious flaws in your comments, and can learn from your mistakes. That will be the day. manoj -- Now I lay me down to sleep I hear the sirens in the street All my dreams are made of chrome I have no way to get back home Tom Waits Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, 22 May 2003 20:55:31 -0700, Marc Singer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Perhaps we can look at this a different way. I haven't read anyone voicing the opinion that GWB (can't say the name of the beast out loud) is a 'good fellow'. I'm supposing that all of us agree that he's a snake-oil salesmen of the odious kind, interested most in lining his pockets and the pockets of his pals at the expense of the majority of US citizens as well as international citizens. He is a ignorant bully whose opinions and actions don't represent me or my cohort. While I personally may not be unsympathetic to that line of reasoning, you should realize that the president enjoys a high approval rating domestically, and so not all people agree with that sentiment. I think this is the basic flaw of people espousing your views on this subject: You are so convinced of your utter infallibility that any action you propose in accordance with your viewpoint are justified; which is ironical, since that is precisely what you accuse the americans of doing. manoj -- We're only in it for the volume. Black Sabbath Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, 22 May 2003 12:43:22 -0500, Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It may be too little if only one person does it... But I know *MANY* people who simply will avoid (to de extent possible in Mexico, at least) buying any American goods. In my particular cas -and I think many other developers will agree- this did not suddenly start with the Iraqi war - The USA have long been a country with little or none respect for privacy and freedom, standing in the way of technological advance. How will it help anything? First of all, if they notice that they are ceasing to be the focus of technological development, they might understand that they are doing something wrong. And even if they don't, at least I feel better ;-) It is easy to take actions secure in the feeling that there are no consequences (which seems to be part of your complaint against my goverment). Hmm. What if I pass this mail around locally and reciprocate. IU doubt if people in my community would be happy about tis boycott. This could get to be fun. I'll send it along to all my relatives here in the US who put me on the chain lists. If we get enough people in the US participating in this boycott, it may make a difference. Since we all ugly americans, we may need to be educated about where this .cx place is ;-) manoj -- There's no saint like a reformed sinner. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:38:09 +1000, Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Fri, 23 May 2003 03:20, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You are taking personal actions inimical to the standard of living of me and my loved ones in retaliation for actions by my government (which I have little control over), and you expect me to roll over and congratulate you all on your stance? Hell, my first instinct is to try and see how I can retaliate. Great! Now we are making some progress. The US (both government and people) does this sort of thing routinely to other countries. Most Americans can't understand why it will make people outside the US unhappy. We, the american people, delibrately go out of our way to try and hurt the economy of other countries? Hell, we don't ewven know where most of the countries inthe world are, far less be bothered to individually go out and try to hurt their economies. My government may do things in a fashion that could be improved (to put it mildly), but as a people, we are generally benevolent, until something impinges on our consciousness and makes us take notice. And given our collective attention span, it takes a lot. Let me clue all of you in: anyone who takes a stand and tries to hurt the US economy, I see as a taking action inimical to me, and my loved ones, and I do *NOT* see that as friendly action. It seems that a large portion of the US population is trying to hurt the economy of any country that doesn't follow the US line (see France as an example). Yes. There is a segment of the population which is indeed taking what I would call enemy action against france. But we are also prepared to live with the retaliatory consequences of our actions. What do you think of the boycots of French products? Do you oppose them on principle? Actually, I do, since I think that the French government did nothing illegal, and was well within its rights to decide as it damed well pleases; but having stated my opinion as an american, I am not going to pass the buck when it comes to actions some americans are taking, even if I disagree. PS How exactly would you retaliate against the rest of the world? I dunno. Depends on pissed I am. PPS Be grateful that you have more control over your government than I have over mine. My government obeys yours. So you can't control your government to do the right thing, and in frustration you lash out against my family? manoj -- In an age when the fashion is to be in love with yourself, confessing to be in love with somebody else is an admission of unfaithfulness to one's beloved. Russell Baker Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 10:03:38AM -0700, John H. Robinson, IV wrote: Marc Singer wrote: (Unintentionally, I first sent the reply to you directly.) On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 02:09:24PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: Incidentally North America != USA. And your point is, what? that north america contains not one, but three countries: Candada, USA, and Mexico Good grief. If you'd read the original message carefully, you'd notice that I know the difference. I wrote North America and meant it.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Stephen Frost dijo: Those who have concerns or political issues need not attend but that should not stop the conference from happening if there are enough people who are interested. Absolutely true, but I found Canada much mor affordable than the States last summer ;-) -- I would rather starve than lose your acceptance .''`.My eyes will always show my empty soul : :' :- Boy Sets Fire `. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3) `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com
Re: Debian conference in the US?
If your countrymen share that sort of attitute it explains why the USA is in so many wars. Yeah. We rarely suffer fools gladly. Stop it, you're killing me. People from the USA describing others as fools. One only has to look at the dross in US newspapers and TV news bulletins to understand the level of understanding that most Americans have of the world outside their own trousers. Matt.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
My government may do things in a fashion that could be improved (to put it mildly), but as a people, we are generally benevolent, until something impinges on our consciousness and makes us take notice. And given our collective attention span, it takes a lot. I'm not a DD but I find very strange all this nationalist talk on this mailing-list. Discussing whether US-Americans are a people like that or this seems to me very appropriate for a flame-war, not to schedule an event. Frankly, such generalization (American are all a good/bad people) seems very childish. What's the point in the end, about the meeting? -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, 22 May 2003, Marc Singer wrote: Perhaps we can look at this a different way. I haven't read anyone voicing the opinion that GWB (can't say the name of the beast out loud) is a 'good fellow'. Well since you asked. I think GWB is a 'good fellow'. I'm supposing that all of us agree that he's a snake-oil salesmen of the odious kind, interested most in lining his pockets and the pockets of his pals at the expense of the majority of US citizens as well as international citizens. Nope. Don't agree at all. My only objection to a conference in the US is the weather is miserable. I want to go somewhere warm! -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 07:07:19PM +0100, Matt Ryan wrote: If your countrymen share that sort of attitute it explains why the USA is in so many wars. Yeah. We rarely suffer fools gladly. Stop it, you're killing me. People from the USA describing others as fools. One only has to look at the dross in US newspapers and TV news bulletins to understand the level of understanding that most Americans have of the world outside their own trousers. /me invokes azeem's law[0]. This thread has ended. Michael -- [0] Whenever Matt Ryan enters a Flamewar, no more non-value can be added to it and therefore the thread will die.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
That's funny considering just how many people are risking their LIVES to get here. Then again, maybe its not, maybe its an insult to the ones who've died trying to get here over the years. I don't think not wanting to go somewhere is an insult to other people who do want to go there. The DMCA is one problem. One which is not just a US headache. The EU Copyright Directive is coming next, so where will all you Europeans run to when that law eventually comes into force? 1) It's fortuantely not here yet 2) Even the proposal is not as bad as DMCA and most countries will implement a much milder laws than suggested 3) Even if the DMCA was copied verbatim to Finland, I would prefer to get prosecuted near home where I know the culture and can speak my native language And this is also only a US problem? Don't take us wrong, of course it's not. It's just that US IPR enforcement policies there are currently quite unpredictable and the general (or even *official*) attitude toward foreigners isn't exactly warm at the moment. Please don't take it as a personal insult. I've visited USA multiple times, like especially NYC and have taken some very nice photos from the WTC etc. Still, even if I'm overly cautios, I just don't want to risk getting imprisoned in a foreign land for contributing to Transcode, for example. The situation may change in the future, of course. I bet there are places where American Debian developer's don't feel safe to travel either but I doubt you mean it as an insult to people living there - or people wanting to move there. - Jarno
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Hi, On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 03:14:48PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Marc Singer wrote: Perhaps we can look at this a different way. I haven't read anyone voicing the opinion that GWB (can't say the name of the beast out loud) is a 'good fellow'. Well since you asked. I think GWB is a 'good fellow'. Yes. Too bad he didn't happily stay being a good fellow on his ranch in Texas. Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl pgpaRtbeDPTJj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Michael Banck wrote: /me invokes azeem's law[0]. This thread has ended. [0] Whenever Matt Ryan enters a Flamewar, no more non-value can be added to it and therefore the thread will die. I'm not sure why you see my input as non-value? Surely its not the fact that a bunch of tightly wound geeks don't like what I preach? If so, please try living outside of the flock and rebel against the herd mentality. As for your rule, please review my thread on Daft Internet Stuff for a run-down on my view of such things. Matt.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 12:10:35PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:38:09 +1000, Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: PPS Be grateful that you have more control over your government than I have over mine. My government obeys yours. So you can't control your government to do the right thing, and in frustration you lash out against my family? No one is lashing out against your family, although you may well be collaterally damaged. You could (a) deal with it, or (b) migrate. Geordie.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: My only objection to a conference in the US is the weather is miserable. Which part of the US? Surely the weather in Los Angeles isn't miserable... unless you consider the total absense of weather to be miserable. I want to go somewhere warm! 107F and 100% humidity isn't warm enough for you? [Temp and Humidity in Ft. AP Hill a few years ago August.] Maybe we should hold a conference in Death Valley? [120F 48C for 43 consecutive days...[1]] Don Armstrong 1: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MichaelLevin.shtml -- EQUAL RIGHTS FOR WOMEN Don't be teased or humiliated. See their look of surprise when you step right up to a urinal and use it with a smile. Get Dr. Mary Evers' EQUAL-NOW Adapter (pat. appld. for) -- purse size, fool proof, sanitary -- comes in nine lovely, feminine, psychadelic patterns -- requires no fitting, no prescriptions. -- Robert A Heinlein _I Will Fear No Evil_ p470. http://www.donarmstrong.com http://www.anylevel.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu pgpknz1PvxX2Q.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, May 23, 2003 at 03:14:48PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: My only objection to a conference in the US is the weather is miserable. I want to go somewhere warm! You want warm? Come out to Southern California, Florida, or Hawaii for warm weather pretty much the whole year 'round. We don't have to have a conference in the Northeast, after all. - David Nusinow
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, 22 May 2003, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2003 22:39:02 +1000, Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. I see. You all are personally taking action to make it harder for my friends and relatives to find a job, or get decent health care (my ex-boss has been looking for employment for 27 months now, and my step daughter does not have a job with benefits), and you expect me to have sympathy for your views? Do you have a better way of encougaging the U.S.A. to take an alternate stance? It's fairly clear that they don't actually give a shit about the UN or anyone else, so we can't just express our displeasure and expect Bush and cronies to give a shit. The citizens of the US have a little more power than the rest of the world, in that you have a *vote* as to who gets to fuck the rest of the world. So, it goes like this: * The rest of the world is sick to death of US imperialism; * The US government ignores world opinion and does it's thing; * The rest of the world puts pressure on the US people to change things, since they've at least got half a chance to make changes; * The US people make the change, or live with the consequences of not changing. Remember, the rest of the world does *not* owe you and yours a living. You are taking personal actions inimical to the standard of living of me and my loved ones in retaliation for actions by my government (which I have little control over), and you expect me to roll over and congratulate you all on your stance? Hell, my first instinct is to try and see how I can retaliate. Not looking for congratulations. Again, from where I'm sitting, you've got more direct influence over US policy than I do. If you have a better suggestion of how foreigners can influence US policy, I'd love to hear it. Let me clue all of you in: anyone who takes a stand and tries to hurt the US economy, I see as a taking action inimical to me, and my loved ones, and I do *NOT* see that as friendly action. And most of the world does not see the actions of your government (and, since you live in a democracy it truly is *your* government - remember, of the people, by the people, and for the people, or some such) as overly friendly, I don't quite see the problem. -- --- #include disclaimer.h Matthew Palmer, Geek In Residence http://ieee.uow.edu.au/~mjp16
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The citizens of the US have a little more power than the rest of the world, in that you have a *vote* as to who gets to fuck the rest of the world. Well, didn't work that way last time... -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am the rocks. Looking for a developer in St. Louis? http://web.springies.com/~ats/ Death row is entirely too small and empty.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003, Alan Shutko wrote: Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The citizens of the US have a little more power than the rest of the world, in that you have a *vote* as to who gets to fuck the rest of the world. Well, didn't work that way last time... Maybe the US should elect its President in the same way as Debian elects its DPL. Phil. -- Philip Charles; 39a Paterson Street, Abbotsford, Dunedin, New Zealand +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I sell GNU/Linux GNU/Hurd CDs. See http://www.copyleft.co.nz
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Manoj Srivastava dijo [Fri, May 23, 2003 at 12:05:08AM -0500]: It is easy to take actions secure in the feeling that there are no consequences (which seems to be part of your complaint against my goverment). Not at all. I know that if your economy suffers, mine suffers doubly so. Mexico is so heavily dependent on the US economy that if you enter a mild recession we are in crisis... And it is not nice at all. However, I often say -and this war over petroleum is a good example- that I hope the US economy will suffer. I know that if this happens I will also temporarily suffer the results. I am willing to. I justhope that Europe comes out strengthened, that Europe can effectively become a second superpower - I am not wishing this in order to harm your family. My family suffers as well. I wish for this because it is fairier to the world. In the world there are more families than yours and mine. Hmm. What if I pass this mail around locally and reciprocate. IU doubt if people in my community would be happy about tis boycott. This could get to be fun. I'll send it along to all my relatives here in the US who put me on the chain lists. If we get enough people in the US participating in this boycott, it may make a difference. I doubt this mail is worth much - I am no much good at writing in English, specially if done just as a mail an swer in a tiring flamewar... But you can find myriads of interesting people expressing basically the same all over the net. Since we all ugly americans, we may need to be educated about where this .cx place is ;-) As I told you, I am Mexican, and live in Mexico... Sadly, TLDs don't say much about us - I got a .cx because they were for free for some time :) - It is the Christmas Island, I understand that an Australian protectorate, between Australia and Indonesia. Greetings, -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5630-9700 ext. 1366 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, 2003-05-18 at 22:07, Aaron M. Ucko wrote: [I've already asked a few relevant individuals about this, but am opening it up to the list at their suggestion.] I've recently been in touch with somebody (a lawyer and professor concerned with government open source policy) who is interested in sponsoring a Debian conference here in Washington, DC, next spring, in conjunction with an international conference on open source in government. Sounds like a good idea to me! If we have a sponsor, it makes sense to use the opportunity.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Simon Law [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please don't hold the conference in the U.S. I am a Canadian who has not stepped foot on American soil since your government declared it was at war. You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? -Miles -- A zen-buddhist walked into a pizza shop and said, Make me one with everything.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 04:06:17PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote: Simon Law [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please don't hold the conference in the U.S. I am a Canadian who has not stepped foot on American soil since your government declared it was at war. You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? I think he meant the war against terrorists, which could potentially include anyone as ennemy. Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Hi Greg, Now that you've got this release out, have you given any thought to the message I sent earlier about merging gdb server versions? Here it is again in case you've forgotten: Hi, The current version of gdbserver in uClinux-dist only works on the m68k. In my v850-specific version of uClinux-dist, I include a version of gdbserver that works on the v850, which I created based on gdb-5.3. I think it should generally be much more portable than the old version, as it's far less hacked up (the only changes I made to put it into the uClinux-dist/user tree are to move the files around to fit the old scheme better; I have a shell script that does that automatically). I haven't yet sent my patches to gdb-central because I'm waiting to get a copyright disclaimer, but perhaps you might want to include this newer version in uClinux-dist? I suppose it will work on other platforms too; the issues that I know about are: (1) In linux-low.c, I do this to get the various address offsets (similar to the code in the old m68k gdbserver, which uses hard-wired constants): text = ptrace (PTRACE_PEEKUSER, pid, (long)PT_TEXT_ADDR, 0); text_len = ptrace (PTRACE_PEEKUSER, pid, (long)PT_TEXT_LEN, 0); real_data = ptrace (PTRACE_PEEKUSER, pid, (long)PT_DATA_ADDR, 0); I defined PT_TEXT_ADDR, PT_TEXT_LEN, and PT_DATA_ADDR in include/asm-v850/ptrace.h in the kernel: /* These are `magic' values for PTRACE_PEEKUSR that return info about where a process is located in memory. */ #define PT_TEXT_ADDR(PT_SIZE + 1) #define PT_TEXT_LEN (PT_SIZE + 2) #define PT_DATA_ADDR(PT_SIZE + 3) Could you add similar to defines to the other uClinux ports, so that the linux-low.c code will work on them too? BTW, notice that I used `PT_TEXT_LEN' instead of `PT_TEXT_END_ADDR' (which is what the m68k uses), as addr-len pairs generally seem cleaner to me than addr-endaddr pairs (makes the code slightly simpler too). (2) Since stuff in uClinux-dist comes `pre-configured' (i.e. doesn't get to run the configure script), and I of course configured it for the v850, the gdbserver Makefile needs to somehow select the proper machine-dependent files to use. Currently the only machine-dependent bits seem to be these: DEPFILES = reg-v850e.o linux-low.o linux-v850e-low.o Perhaps it would be good enough to change this to something like: DEPFILES = reg-$(CPU).o linux-low.o linux-$(CPU)-low.o But I'm not sure where I can get CPU from; is there something handy in the uClinux-dist Makefiles that could be used? The set of CPU values used in (my version of) gdbserver are: v850e, s390, arm, x86-64, i386, mips, ppc, sh, ia64, m68k So it seems that the most `obvious' value should work OK Hmmm, perhaps I ought to change `v850e' to be `v850' for compatibility with the kernel, etc... sigh. What are your thoughts? Thanks, -Miles -- `To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems' --Homer J. Simpson
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. If the US economy stays down long enough then the current government won't last. Rhetoric about imaginary enemies in Iraq doesn't satisfy people who lose their jobs because of the economy sucking. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Debian conference in the US?
* Simon Law ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Please don't hold the conference in the U.S. I am a Canadian who has not stepped foot on American soil since your government declared it was at war. If we have a sponsor and there are enough interested parties to warrent it I think we should do it. I certainly think there's enough interest and it sounds like we have a sponsor. Those who have concerns or political issues need not attend but that should not stop the conference from happening if there are enough people who are interested. Stephen pgpXTYNQtYtpC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Hi, On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 10:39:02PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. If the US economy stays down long enough then the current government won't last. Rhetoric about imaginary enemies in Iraq doesn't satisfy people who lose their jobs because of the economy sucking. Hm, as could be seen in Iraq, boycotts only strenghen the position of the rogue leaders (See? They are all against us! We need to protect ourselves! You need a strong man to protect you! Etc.) Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] a tapoté : Hi, On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 10:39:02PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. If the US economy stays down long enough then the current government won't last. Rhetoric about imaginary enemies in Iraq doesn't satisfy people who lose their jobs because of the economy sucking. Hm, as could be seen in Iraq, boycotts only strenghen the position of the rogue leaders (See? They are all against us! We need to protect ourselves! You need a strong man to protect you! Etc.) Both points of view make sense. Fact is selecting a location for an event which is outside USA seems a good compromise for everybody. People that do not want to go to USA are not forced to, others that do not think USA should be avoided would surely agree to go elsewhere too. -- Mathieu Roy Homepage: http://yeupou.coleumes.org Not a native english speaker: http://stock.coleumes.org/doc.php?i=/misc-files/flawed-english
Re: Debian conference in the US?
* Mathieu Roy ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Both points of view make sense. Fact is selecting a location for an event which is outside USA seems a good compromise for everybody. People that do not want to go to USA are not forced to, others that do not think USA should be avoided would surely agree to go elsewhere too. As one of the 200+ developers in the USA I don't feel it should be avoided and I feel quite out in the cold most of the time when these conferences come around because I don't have the funds to go elsewhere. I don't see any problem with having conferences in the USA, or other places for that matter, provided there are enough people who will go to warrent it and there is someone willing to sponsor it. Lots of people might not be willing to go to the USA for political reasons, probably more would find it cost prohibitive. The same is true for conferences outside the USA, I'm sure quite a few developers find that cost prohibitive too, and I imagine there are USA developers who dislike the actions of other countries and would avoid conferences there too. This doesn't mean we shouldn't have any conferences. Stephen pgpDXiyWkGeQo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003 01:06, Mathieu Roy wrote: If the US economy stays down long enough then the current government won't last. Rhetoric about imaginary enemies in Iraq doesn't satisfy people who lose their jobs because of the economy sucking. Hm, as could be seen in Iraq, boycotts only strenghen the position of the rogue leaders (See? They are all against us! We need to protect ourselves! You need a strong man to protect you! Etc.) Both points of view make sense. Fact is selecting a location for an event which is outside USA seems a good compromise for everybody. People that do not want to go to USA are not forced to, others that do not think USA should be avoided would surely agree to go elsewhere too. I have no objections to a conference in the US. If there are enough people interested in attending to make it a good conference then it should be run. The US has a large population, they should be able to justify a conference without any visitors from other countries. I can't rule out the possibility of attending myself. I was merely pointing out one of the reasons why many people are avoiding the US. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, 22 May 2003 22:39:02 +1000, Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. I see. You all are personally taking action to make it harder for my friends and relatives to find a job, or get decent health care (my ex-boss has been looking for employment for 27 months now, and my step daughter does not have a job with benefits), and you expect me to have sympathy for your views? You are taking personal actions inimical to the standard of living of me and my loved ones in retaliation for actions by my government (which I have little control over), and you expect me to roll over and congratulate you all on your stance? Hell, my first instinct is to try and see how I can retaliate. Let me clue all of you in: anyone who takes a stand and tries to hurt the US economy, I see as a taking action inimical to me, and my loved ones, and I do *NOT* see that as friendly action. manoj -- A countryman between two lawyers is like a fish between two cats. Ben Franklin Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 12:17:32PM -0400, Stephen Frost wrote: As one of the 200+ developers in the USA I don't feel it should be avoided and I feel quite out in the cold most of the time when these conferences come around because I don't have the funds to go elsewhere. I don't see any problem with having conferences in the USA, or other places for that matter, provided there are enough people who will go to warrent it and there is someone willing to sponsor it. Lots of people might not be willing to go to the USA for political reasons, probably more would find it cost prohibitive. The same is true for conferences outside the USA, I'm sure quite a few developers find that cost prohibitive too, and I imagine there are USA developers who dislike the actions of other countries and would avoid conferences there too. This doesn't mean we shouldn't have any conferences. exactly. Michael
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Stephen Frost wrote: I don't see any problem with having conferences in the USA, or other places for that matter, provided there are enough people who will go to warrent it and there is someone willing to sponsor it. Lots of people might not be willing to go to the USA for political reasons, probably more would find it cost prohibitive. The same is true for conferences outside the USA, I'm sure quite a few developers find that cost prohibitive too, and I imagine there are USA developers who dislike the actions of other countries and would avoid conferences there too. It's really not any more expensive to travel to Toronto or Vancouver than it is to travel a similar distance inside the US[1]. Once you get there you'll find that the conference is cheaper since the Canadian dollar is (still) weaker than the US dollar. And I know of approixmatly zero Americans who have reason to boycott Canada. Sorry, argument does not fly. Anyway, I'd love to see a conference in DC, since I have family there, and it's only 5 hours away by car. I'm looking forward to Oslo more though, if I can find cheap plane tickets! -- see shy jo [1] If you're low on cash and it's on the right side of the continent, you go by car. Or greyhound! pgpWCSZ4tvI9z.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 05:06:24PM +0200, Mathieu Roy wrote: Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] a tapoté : On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 10:39:02PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote: On Thu, 22 May 2003 17:06, Miles Bader wrote: You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? When tourism goes down the hotel, entertainment, and airline industries suffer. If enough people boycott the US because of this then it'll keep the American economy down. If the US economy stays down long enough then the current government won't last. Rhetoric about imaginary enemies in Iraq doesn't satisfy people who lose their jobs because of the economy sucking. Hm, as could be seen in Iraq, boycotts only strenghen the position of the rogue leaders (See? They are all against us! We need to protect ourselves! You need a strong man to protect you! Etc.) Both points of view make sense. Fact is selecting a location for an event which is outside USA seems a good compromise for everybody. The sponsors aren't *offering* to sponsor a conference outside the US. Most of the arguments against holding a conference in the US are therefore irrelevant. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpkWQY1fcQmw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Miles Bader dijo [Thu, May 22, 2003 at 04:06:17PM +0900]: Simon Law [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please don't hold the conference in the U.S. I am a Canadian who has not stepped foot on American soil since your government declared it was at war. You mean the iraq war? What's the point? How is avoiding the U.S. going to help anything, regardless of how strongly you feel about the U.S. governments acts or positions? It may be too little if only one person does it... But I know *MANY* people who simply will avoid (to de extent possible in Mexico, at least) buying any American goods. In my particular cas -and I think many other developers will agree- this did not suddenly start with the Iraqi war - The USA have long been a country with little or none respect for privacy and freedom, standing in the way of technological advance. How will it help anything? First of all, if they notice that they are ceasing to be the focus of technological development, they might understand that they are doing something wrong. And even if they don't, at least I feel better ;-) -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5630-9700 ext. 1366 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF
Re: Debian conference in the US?
* Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: It's really not any more expensive to travel to Toronto or Vancouver than it is to travel a similar distance inside the US[1]. Once you get there you'll find that the conference is cheaper since the Canadian dollar is (still) weaker than the US dollar. And I know of approixmatly zero Americans who have reason to boycott Canada. Sorry, argument does not fly. It's alot cheaper if the conference is in DC for me since there'd be basically no additional cost involved. A conference in Toronto or Vancouver would be more expensive due to travel time, hotel cost, etc. Though I might be as willing to go to Toronto as NYC if there was a conference there. It seems the conferences are often in Europe though which is definitely more expensive than pretty much anywhere on the east coast for me. Stephen pgpalPImAnWu0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian conference in the US?
As other people have said: I'm not going, but I don't object to a conference in the US per se. Same here. Even if I had the money to attend, I wouldn't like to travel to the US because of the new copyright and anti-terrorist laws. Still, I think it's a good idea to arrange a conference for the American developers. - Jarno
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Thu, 22 May 2003 12:20:39 -0500 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me clue all of you in: anyone who takes a stand and tries to hurt the US economy, I see as a taking action inimical to me, and my loved ones, and I do *NOT* see that as friendly action. What you say is just bad, bad, bad, and you should be ashamed. In the least it implies you personally are only friendly with people when you are taking their money. In other words, you dont have any true friends. On the Australia-US trade deal thats being worked on. If it worked out to be better for Australia than for the US, would you bear a grudge against all individual Australians ? If it was more benificial to the US would you be friendlier to Australians ? If your countrymen share that sort of attitute it explains why the USA is in so many wars. There is a layer of abstraction been government and people, any action by or against your government is not necesarily an action from or against individual US'ians. I hope you can see the obvious flaws in your comments, and can learn from your mistakes. Glenn
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And I know of approixmatly zero Americans who have reason to boycott Canada. Er, well. I doubt there's a government in existance that hasn't done something objectionable enough to piss off a foreigner somewhere (e.g., recent european attempts to export their censorship laws on the net). I seem to recall Canada doing some very moronic things with respect to free speech in the '80s that engendered a fair amount of anger among people I knew (Americans), though I can't recall why it was of cross-border significance [The U.S. has been unusually moronic lately though (the basic `anti-people' stance of Bush's minions is pretty scary).] -Miles -- Come now, if we were really planning to harm you, would we be waiting here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Fri, 23 May 2003 03:20, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You are taking personal actions inimical to the standard of living of me and my loved ones in retaliation for actions by my government (which I have little control over), and you expect me to roll over and congratulate you all on your stance? Hell, my first instinct is to try and see how I can retaliate. Great! Now we are making some progress. The US (both government and people) does this sort of thing routinely to other countries. Most Americans can't understand why it will make people outside the US unhappy. Let me clue all of you in: anyone who takes a stand and tries to hurt the US economy, I see as a taking action inimical to me, and my loved ones, and I do *NOT* see that as friendly action. It seems that a large portion of the US population is trying to hurt the economy of any country that doesn't follow the US line (see France as an example). What do you think of the boycots of French products? Do you oppose them on principle? PS How exactly would you retaliate against the rest of the world? PPS Be grateful that you have more control over your government than I have over mine. My government obeys yours. -- http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/ My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Andreas Schuldei [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What do we get from that sponsor? Conference rooms, network, accomodation, food, flights and tshirts? His response: } We would provide the conference facilities and try to get accomodations with } some LUG members. There may be more, but I need to check what else we could } provide. -- Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org) Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT a valid e-mail address) for more info.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
* (Aaron M. Ucko) | Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in | the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels | this way? As other people have said: I'm not going, but I don't object to a conference in the US per se. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 01:25:47PM -0400, Aaron M. Ucko wrote: Joe Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? Please don't hold the conference in the U.S. I am a Canadian who has not stepped foot on American soil since your government declared it was at war. Simon
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Sun, 2003-05-18 at 22:07, Aaron M. Ucko wrote: What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days? While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. For those reasons, I am planning to organise Debconf 4 in Vancouver (or maybe somewhere else, if there's a lot of hate for vancouver) sometime in the summer of 2004.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
For those reasons, I am planning to organise Debconf 4 in Vancouver (or maybe somewhere else, if there's a lot of hate for vancouver) sometime in the summer of 2004. Yipee!
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Joe Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? -- Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org) Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT a valid e-mail address) for more info.
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On ti, 2003-05-20 at 20:25, Aaron M. Ucko wrote: Joe Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? I do. The DMCA, and various laws and regulations made after 2001-09-11 combined with the suspicion that the US has me listed as an international arms dealer make me nervous about entering their jurisdiction. I have no objection to a Debconf in the US, however. On the contrary, I think it'd be a good idea. There's a ton of developers in the US, and many more willing to travel to the US for a conference, so it'd be silly not to. -- Enemies of Carlotta 1.0 mailing list manager: http://liw.iki.fi/liw/eoc/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
On Tue, May 20, 2003 at 01:25:47PM -0400, Aaron M. Ucko wrote: Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? I do. These days I won't travel to the US even if somebody would pay me to. It's just not safe. Don't let that stop you from holding a conference, though -- if you already live there, it's no extra risk :) Richard Braakman
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Aaron M. Ucko (2003-05-20 13:25:47 -0400) : Joe Drew [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While convenient for american developers, there are rather a number of non-american developers who will not set foot on American soil, due in part to the DMCA and (I imagine) the apparent dangers to non-americans coming into the country. Two of the people I originally contacted said this too, but always in the third person. I ask again, who on this list actually still feels this way? I do. A combination of DMCA, a certain affinity towards cryptography, a certain dislike for some of the USA's behaviours (notably on the international scene), a particular dislike against dissimulating my opinions especially regarding the previous point, and a large République Française written on my passport, makes me feel I would not be very welcome in the USA. That's only my personal opinion though, and I'm in no way trying to turn anyone from organising a Debconf in the USA or attending it. Roland. -- Roland Mas Fate always wins... At least, when people stick to the rules. -- in Interesting Times (Terry Pratchett)
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Ben Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days? If we're doing let's have a conf where we normally don't how about we have it on the US's east coast aswell. I'd personally argue for the nothern Virginia are myself. Too many conferences are held on the US's West coast, and if conferences do get to the East coast, they are always in New York. That leaves the south eastern US folks out in the cold. Wrong. It doesn't get cold out in the southeastern US. :P -- Looks like excitement by repetition!
Re: Debian conference in the US?
* Aaron M. Ucko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030519 04:26]: * As mentioned, we have an enthusiastic sponsor lined up, which is a definite plus. What do we get from that sponsor? Conference rooms, network, accomodation, food, flights and tshirts?
Re: Debian conference in the US?
* Aaron M. Ucko ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days? I'm all for it, and GWU would be most excellent in my view. Of course, I live just outside DC... ;) Stephen pgpSnD1TuI4Jx.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Debian conference in the US?
-Original Message- From: Brian Nelson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:05 AM To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org Ben Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days? If we're doing let's have a conf where we normally don't how about we have it on the US's east coast aswell. I'd personally argue for the nothern Virginia are myself. Too many conferences are held on the US's West coast, and if conferences do get to the East coast, they are always in New York. That leaves the south eastern US folks out in the cold. Wrong. It doesn't get cold out in the southeastern US. :P Wrong. It DOES get cold. Just not AS cold as the northern US. :P Mike
Re: Debian conference in the US?
What are other developers' feelings on the matter these days? If we're doing let's have a conf where we normally don't how about we have it on the US's east coast aswell. I'd personally argue for the nothern Virginia are myself. Too many conferences are held on the US's West coast, and if conferences do get to the East coast, they are always in New York. That leaves the south eastern US folks out in the cold. -- Debian - http://www.debian.org/ Linux 1394 - http://www.linux1394.org/ Subversion - http://subversion.tigris.org/ Deqo - http://www.deqo.com/
Re: Debian conference in the US?
Ben Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If we're doing let's have a conf where we normally don't how about we have it on the US's east coast aswell. I'd personally argue for the nothern Virginia are myself. This would probably be in DC proper (specifically, at GWU) -- so a bit further north/east, but still well south of NY and thus hitting a previously neglected region. Too many conferences are held on the US's West coast, and if conferences do get to the East coast, they are always in New York. That leaves the south eastern US folks out in the cold. Indeed. -- Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org) Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT a valid e-mail address) for more info.
