Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Hi, I looked into latest policy, but did not find anything about systemd support. I'm surprised that this is now a release critical bug, and the package marked for removal. What's the justification? This package hooks into /etc/inittab, does systemd not automatically manage services from inittab? Isn't it systemd having release critical bug then? Regards, Gerrit On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:54:06PM +0200, Joern Heissler wrote: Package: daemontools-run Version: 1:0.76-3 Severity: grave Justification: renders package unusable Hi, Debian decided to use systemd. I'm using a local dnscache (djbdns) for recursive dns lookups, but this service isn't started automatically. I assume that it's because daemontools-run only supports sysvinit's inittab. Please add systemd support, Cheers! -- System Information: Debian Release: jessie/sid APT prefers unstable APT policy: (600, 'unstable') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Foreign Architectures: i386 Kernel: Linux 3.14-1-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash Versions of packages daemontools-run depends on: ii daemontools 1:0.76-3 daemontools-run recommends no packages. daemontools-run suggests no packages. -- no debconf information -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704090821.13265.qm...@79b6c771442573.315fe32.mid.smarden.org
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Hi, On 07/04/2014 11:08, Gerrit Pape wrote: I looked into latest policy, but did not find anything about systemd support. I'm surprised that this is now a release critical bug, and the package marked for removal. What's the justification? Ask the submitter? This package hooks into /etc/inittab, does systemd not automatically manage services from inittab? Isn't it systemd having release critical bug then? Could we please not have another systemd thread on -devel@? The last one is not even cold yet... Thanks! Unrelated to that, I would think that any package that modifies /etc/inittab is buggy: maintainer scripts should not modify configuration files belonging to other packages (Policy 10.7.4). Even worse, daemontools-run adds a new entry uncoditionally on upgrade even when the existing one was removed/commented out by the local admin. That's a RC bug (Policy 10.7.3: local changes must be preserved during a package upgrade)... Ansgar -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53b67b69.6010...@debian.org
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
]] Gerrit Pape I looked into latest policy, but did not find anything about systemd support. I'm surprised that this is now a release critical bug, and the package marked for removal. What's the justification? This package hooks into /etc/inittab, does systemd not automatically manage services from inittab? Isn't it systemd having release critical bug then? inittab is a sysvinit-only feature. It's not supported with any other of our supported init systems. Either use an init script, which is supported by all of them or provide native units for each init system. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8761jdphga@aexonyam.err.no
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Gerrit, it's up to you to lower the severity of the bug to important (I guess since it will break with default init system). You should have done that instead of ccing debian-devel in the current situation. Please do not abuse debian-devel to questions that could be politely and calmly discussed outside the list. Thanks, O. On Fri, Jul 4, 2014, at 11:08, Gerrit Pape wrote: Hi, I looked into latest policy, but did not find anything about systemd support. I'm surprised that this is now a release critical bug, and the package marked for removal. What's the justification? This package hooks into /etc/inittab, does systemd not automatically manage services from inittab? Isn't it systemd having release critical bug then? Regards, Gerrit On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:54:06PM +0200, Joern Heissler wrote: Package: daemontools-run Version: 1:0.76-3 Severity: grave Justification: renders package unusable Hi, Debian decided to use systemd. I'm using a local dnscache (djbdns) for recursive dns lookups, but this service isn't started automatically. I assume that it's because daemontools-run only supports sysvinit's inittab. Please add systemd support, Cheers! -- System Information: Debian Release: jessie/sid APT prefers unstable APT policy: (600, 'unstable') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Foreign Architectures: i386 Kernel: Linux 3.14-1-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash Versions of packages daemontools-run depends on: ii daemontools 1:0.76-3 daemontools-run recommends no packages. daemontools-run suggests no packages. -- no debconf information -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704090821.13265.qm...@79b6c771442573.315fe32.mid.smarden.org -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1404468401.9917.138036781.4169e...@webmail.messagingengine.com
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Gerrit Pape p...@dbnbgs.smarden.org writes: I looked into latest policy, but did not find anything about systemd support. I'm surprised that this is now a release critical bug, and the package marked for removal. What's the justification? I'm very dubious about this being release-critical. This package hooks into /etc/inittab, does systemd not automatically manage services from inittab? Correct, systemd doesn't use inittab. Isn't it systemd having release critical bug then? I don't think it's likely that systemd will support inittab. The semantics of inittab are quite a bit inferior to what's available with very little additional work using the native configuration format, and the regular inittab jobs are provided by regularly-configured services. Yes, that is a disruptive change for people who were using inittab to run other things. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8738eho1en@windlord.stanford.edu
RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
On Fri, Jul 04, 2014 at 03:37:20AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Gerrit Pape p...@dbnbgs.smarden.org writes: I looked into latest policy, but did not find anything about systemd support. I'm surprised that this is now a release critical bug, and the package marked for removal. What's the justification? I'm very dubious about this being release-critical. I think it is. The package will not work as expected without the inittab interface. This package hooks into /etc/inittab, does systemd not automatically manage services from inittab? Correct, systemd doesn't use inittab. Isn't it systemd having release critical bug then? I don't think it's likely that systemd will support inittab. The semantics of inittab are quite a bit inferior to what's available with very little additional work using the native configuration format, and the regular inittab jobs are provided by regularly-configured services. Yes, that is a disruptive change for people who were using inittab to run other things. Thanks Russ. This also applies to the runit package actually. Having my own init system since more than 10 years, I'm not that much in systemd. I looked at policy, but didn't find any instructions. I hereby ask for help to add systemd support to these packages. Important thing to know is: init scripts don't work out for this. The service management concept of daemontools and runit is, amongst other things, a process tree with guaranteed process state, including envrionment. init scripts don't provide that. Regards, Gerrit. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704115052.24406.qm...@0268f0ed90ab4d.315fe32.mid.smarden.org
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
On Fri, Jul 04, 2014 at 12:01:13PM +0200, Ansgar Burchardt wrote: Could we please not have another systemd thread on -devel@? The last one is not even cold yet... Thanks! On Fri, Jul 04, 2014 at 12:06:41PM +0200, Ond??ej Surï¿œ wrote: Please do not abuse debian-devel to questions that could be politely and calmly discussed outside the list. This is about a package I maintain with a RC bug that'll cause it to be removed from the next Debian release. I'm with Debian more than 12 years, I'm pretty sure debian-devel@l.d.o is the right place to ask fellows for advice. Switching to systemd is a big change, and what you're doing is not in line with common understanding of Change Management. I, and our fellows, shouldn't be told to shut up. I need support from my fellows just because of that change. On Fri, Jul 04, 2014 at 12:06:41PM +0200, Ond??ej Surý wrote: it's up to you to lower the severity of the bug to important (I guess since it will break with default init system). I know that. It's not right, it's RC with justification renders package unusable. It's just that since more than six years this package worked just flawlessly without any changes. I like that. It's something else that renders it unusable. We all should welcome RC bugs, they help us to make a good release. Looks like the question in which package a RC bug shall be resolved offends some people. Not good. Regards. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704115255.24565.qm...@8e5fdd656e7568.315fe32.mid.smarden.org
Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Hi, Gerrit Pape: I'm very dubious about this being release-critical. I think it is. The package will not work as expected without the inittab interface. It's rather trivial to write an init script, and/or a systemd unit file, which starts daemontools. Hooking into inittab isn't going to work with any other init system, not just not with systemd. Having my own init system since more than 10 years, I'm not that much in systemd. I looked at policy, but didn't find any instructions. You can start with the systemd.unit manpage. Searching the web for systemd howto write unit file also yields some useful resources. Important thing to know is: init scripts don't work out for this. The service management concept of daemontools and runit is, amongst other things, a process tree with guaranteed process state, including envrionment. init scripts don't provide that. Well … systemd does. -- -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704121746.gg23...@smurf.noris.de
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Hi, Gerrit Pape: This is about a package I maintain with a RC bug that'll cause it to be removed from the next Debian release. I'm with Debian more than 12 years, I'm pretty sure debian-devel@l.d.o is the right place to ask fellows for advice. I agree. Switching to systemd is a big change, and what you're doing is not in line with common understanding of Change Management. Then again, change management does not usually start with multi-year discussions and a TC decision. ;-) We all should welcome RC bugs, they help us to make a good release. +1 Looks like the question in which package a RC bug shall be resolved offends some people. Not good. It doesn't exactly offend, but some people are on a hair trigger because of the recent discussion – which IMHO has been mostly reasonable, compared to what I remember from ten+ years or so ago … -- -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704122255.gh23...@smurf.noris.de
Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Hi Gerrit, Am 04.07.2014 13:50, schrieb Gerrit Pape: I hereby ask for help to add systemd support to these packages. We (pkg-systemd team) can help you with that. Let's follow up on the pkg-systemd mailing list. In most cases adding a .service file is pretty simple. If it's only about starting a svscanboot process, that might be as simple as installing a file /lib/systemd/system/svscanboot.service containing [Unit] Description=daemon tools [Service] ExecStart=/usr/bin/svscanboot Restart=always [Install] WantedBy=multi-user.target We probably need to tweak the Type= [1] setting depending on what type of service svcanboot is. [1] man systemd.service -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Gerrit Pape p...@dbnbgs.smarden.org writes: Important thing to know is: init scripts don't work out for this. The service management concept of daemontools and runit is, amongst other things, a process tree with guaranteed process state, including envrionment. init scripts don't provide that. There's no reason to switch away from inittab for sysvinit. For systemd, a unit file can easily do everything that you would get from inittab. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87fvihmh9p@windlord.stanford.edu
adding systemd support to your package (Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support)
Am 04.07.2014 14:34, schrieb Michael Biebl: Hi Gerrit, Am 04.07.2014 13:50, schrieb Gerrit Pape: I hereby ask for help to add systemd support to these packages. We (pkg-systemd team) can help you with that. Let's follow up on the pkg-systemd mailing list. I want to add, that this is a general offer. If you as package maintainer want to add native systemd support then this is great and we invite you to direct any questions you have to the pkg-systemd-maintain...@lists.alioth.debian.org mailing list and we will try to help you as best as we can. Regards, Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: adding systemd support to your package (Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support)
Am 04.07.2014 14:38, schrieb Michael Biebl: pkg-systemd-maintain...@lists.alioth.debian.org mailing list and we will try to help you as best as we can. or join #debian-systemd on OFTC. Regards, Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
On Fri, 2014-07-04 at 14:34, Michael Biebl wrote: Am 04.07.2014 13:50, schrieb Gerrit Pape: I hereby ask for help to add systemd support to these packages. We (pkg-systemd team) can help you with that. Let's follow up on the pkg-systemd mailing list. In most cases adding a .service file is pretty simple. If it's only about starting a svscanboot process, that might be as simple as installing a file /lib/systemd/system/svscanboot.service containing [Unit] Description=daemon tools [Service] ExecStart=/usr/bin/svscanboot Restart=always [Install] WantedBy=multi-user.target We probably need to tweak the Type= [1] setting depending on what type of service svcanboot is. [1] man systemd.service And for runit: cat /etc/systemd/system/runit.service [Unit] Description=runit svscan After=syslog.target [Service] ExecStart=/usr/bin/runsvdir -P /etc/service 'log: ...' [Install] WantedBy=networking.service N.B. WantedBy=networking.service can be changed to something appropriate. -- Kind regards, Milan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704132224.ga29...@arvanta.net
Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
Hi Milan, Am 04.07.2014 15:22, schrieb Milan P. Stanic: And for runit: Thanks for sharing. cat /etc/systemd/system/runit.service [Unit] Description=runit svscan After=syslog.target The After=syslog.target is no longer necessary and not recommended anymore. Lintian will actually complain about that. Syslog is started via socket activation nowadays making this explicit ordering obsolete. [Service] ExecStart=/usr/bin/runsvdir -P /etc/service 'log: ...' [Install] WantedBy=networking.service Services should be hooked up in targets. So WantedBy=networking.service looks wrong. In the vast majority of cases you want WantedBy=multi-user.target Cheers, Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
On Fri, Jul 04, 2014 at 12:06:41PM +0200, Ondřej Surý wrote: it's up to you to lower the severity of the bug to important (I guess since it will break with default init system). I'd call it wishlist at most. The package is still perfectly working with sysvinit (including openrc). If you can't or don't want to code systemd support, please add a Breaks:. -- Gnome 3, Windows 8, Slashdot Beta, now Firefox Ribbon^WAustralis. WTF is going on with replacing usable interfaces with tabletized ones? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704152053.gb10...@angband.pl
Re: RFH: Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
On Fri, 2014-07-04 at 15:55, Michael Biebl wrote: Am 04.07.2014 15:22, schrieb Milan P. Stanic: And for runit: Thanks for sharing. cat /etc/systemd/system/runit.service [Unit] Description=runit svscan After=syslog.target The After=syslog.target is no longer necessary and not recommended anymore. Lintian will actually complain about that. Syslog is started via socket activation nowadays making this explicit ordering obsolete. Nice to know. Tnx. [Service] ExecStart=/usr/bin/runsvdir -P /etc/service 'log: ...' [Install] WantedBy=networking.service Services should be hooked up in targets. So WantedBy=networking.service looks wrong. In the vast majority of cases you want WantedBy=multi-user.target My point was not to show perfect systemd unit for runit but to show that it is really easy to write it. It took me one minute to write and test it and I don't know much about systemd units. -- Kind regards, Milan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140704155049.ga32...@arvanta.net
Re: Bug#752075: daemontools-run: Add systemd support
]] Adam Borowski On Fri, Jul 04, 2014 at 12:06:41PM +0200, Ondřej Surý wrote: it's up to you to lower the severity of the bug to important (I guess since it will break with default init system). I'd call it wishlist at most. The package is still perfectly working with sysvinit (including openrc). According to the TC ruling, not supporting a particular init system is, IIRC, breaking a «should», so normal bug. I'd possibly argue for important since it's the default, but it also seem Pape is ok with it being RC. If you can't or don't want to code systemd support, please add a Breaks:. No, that's not ok. Not supporting an init system (with some exceptions) is not ok for Jessie. This means that if your daemon relies on using /etc/inittab to start you, you have at least two bugs against you: systemd and upstart support. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/m2tx6wap74@rahvafeir.err.no
