Re: containers/chroot to allow ABI breakage is the wrong approach (was: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =))
On 10/21/2014 01:34 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I mean, when I read that infamous guy, Poettering, talking about things like this: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html Actually, while the rest of your post isn't helpful (or even an annoyance), I'm happy that you post such a link in here. It's been a long time I wanted to express myself about it. Basically, the idea is that we should allow some kind of containers/chroot, so that any application is allowed to rely on any version of any distribution / library that they require. While I do understand that this solve *some* symptoms of a big issue, it is my strong opinion that it brings more problems than it solves. I really hope that my fellow DDs understand the problem and will make sure that we (and by we, I mean the Unix community at large) don't steer too much in that direction. Let's enumerate some of them. - Wrong over-engineered implementation of a simple thing The author of the lines linked above, with his usual way of doing things, is over-engineering everything in the implementation. He is proposing to use BTRFS named volumes, but it's basically the concept of a chroot that he's explaining. And he's doing so, just as if he was the first to have the idea, which is kind of fun to read. Fun to read, but really not fun if that's the kind of joke implementation we'll be forced into. - Security update hell This is the most obvious issue, but I have to write about it. Let's say we have a new shellshock / heatbleed issue, then instead of a single operating system, the user is left with a dozen to update... or to actually *not* update. Because it's too complicated (unless you know how to update N types of distros, each instantiated with M versions). And worse: instead of having a single community, it seems that with this idea, we'd be relying on the APP vendor to update an image. Some of these images will *not* be updated, that's for sure. Security maintenance within a single distribution is already very hard, security with APP-vendor maintained images is simply impossible. - Duplication of the same things Do we really need N versions of a shared library? Hell no. That's the Windows DLL approach, and we of course don't want this to happen. Basically, we'll run into shared libraries which wont be shared anymore, which turns out to be extremely stupid. Users will run N versions of the same shared library, just to run an APP, duplicating HDD space, RAM usage, and rendering CPU cache useless. - APP market as a goal Do we, as a community want to go for something like the Android market place? I really hope we don't. At least, I'm against doing things with this type of goal, just to satisfy software merchants. I don't care about the fact it is difficult to write non-free software that integrates well in a free software distribution. Yes, integrating with many distributions is a pain for upstream, but there are other ways to address this issue. - Huge download size for no reason Instead of downloading a package, you'd be downloading also a full instance of an operating system to run it. Fun! Your $gtk application will not be a 500KB package anymore, but a huge 500MB. I don't want this... - Wrong approach to the ABI issue The issue we have, Linus already expressed it when we had the Q/A session in Portland. The issue is that library authors are constantly breaking ABIs. Linus believe that, as distributions, we can push upstream to stop breaking ABIs, just like the kernel doesn't break the userland. At first, I thought it was silly, because we, as a distribution, can only deal with ABI breakages (ask the release team how painful transitions are...). Well, on a 2nd thought, I think he's right. So, dear fellow DDs, I'm asking you: each time you see that an upstream author is breaking an ABI on a package you maintain, write an email to him/her, and explain how much this is bad and shouldn't happen. If the Unix community starts to realize how much we're loosing by breaking ABIs, I'm sure the situation will improve. I'm sure there's more issues about this poisonous idea that I'm not listing. I just wrote this from the top of my head. Let's hope that this isn't the path we're taking, and that containers/chroot wont be the way upstream authors will ship their software. Let's hope that distributions like Debian will continue to do things right, and that upstream authors will stop doing so many ABI/API breakage giving so much work to the release team. Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5446178a.4020...@debian.org
Re: containers/chroot to allow ABI breakage is the wrong approach (was: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =))
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014, Thomas Goirand wrote: So, dear fellow DDs, I'm asking you: each time you see that an upstream author is breaking an ABI on a package you maintain, write an email to him/her, and explain how much this is bad and shouldn't happen. If the Unix community starts to realize how much we're loosing by breaking ABIs, I'm sure the situation will improve. Why? OpenBSD’s libc.so major number is 50 or something like that right now, because they – correctly – increment it on every incompatible change. This is not a problem because, you know, we have Open Source, so we can always just recompile everything against the new libraries. So I am *honestly* puzzled why you would want to avoid lib major bumps. Thanks, //mirabilos -- Sometimes they [people] care too much: pretty printers [and syntax highligh- ting, d.A.] mechanically produce pretty output that accentuates irrelevant detail in the program, which is as sensible as putting all the prepositions in English text in bold font. -- Rob Pike in Notes on Programming in C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/alpine.deb.2.11.141020580.10...@tglase.lan.tarent.de
Re: containers/chroot to allow ABI breakage is the wrong approach (was: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =))
On Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:12:20 +0200 Thorsten Glaser t...@mirbsd.de wrote: So, dear fellow DDs, I'm asking you: each time you see that an upstream author is breaking an ABI on a package you maintain, write an email to him/her, and explain how much this is bad and shouldn't happen. If the Unix community starts to realize how much we're loosing by breaking ABIs, I'm sure the situation will improve. Why? [...] This is not a problem because, you know, we have Open Source, so we can always just recompile everything against the new libraries. Sometimes we have to run software which is neither Open Source nor Free on our systems which are (luckily) Open Source and Free. I don't want to sound pompous or something but it's real life which has its constraints, however inconvenient. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141021132851.e722bf3486824b9c36959...@domain007.com
Re: containers/chroot to allow ABI breakage is the wrong approach (was: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =))
Hi, Thorsten Glaser: OpenBSD’s libc.so major number is 50 or something like that right now, because they – correctly – increment it on every incompatible change. Glibc has versioned symbols instead … This is not a problem because, you know, we have Open Source, so we can always just recompile everything against the new libraries. I'd be ecstatic if the whole world was Open Source, but it is not. It probably never will be. And even if/when I have source, I'd like to continue to use my locally-built programs. Instead of being forced to rebuild each and every one of them, every time I do an OS upgrade. :-/ -- -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141021124249.gc24...@smurf.noris.de
Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Guys, I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... But, my turn...:-P *First things first: Why I'm with Debian / Ubuntu?* A.: Because *I like the work of Debian Maintainers* (you guys and gals, sirs and madams), about how Debian *compiles and packages* *every single piece of open source software out there* (i.e., its `configure ; make ; make install` from `debian/rules`, I love it). I really don't care that much about what init system I have (I'm using upstart and sysvinit these days, never used systemd - it IS too unstable (I tried it without success, lots of bugs popped everywhere when with systemd), invasive and dangerous to our comunity project (a.k.a. Debian))... But please, guys, DO NOT LOSE *DEBIAN COMPILATION*!! I mean, when I read that infamous guy, Poettering, talking about things like this: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html It creeps the hell outta me! Specially this: ...This greatly simplifies application installation, as there's no dependency hell... - Poettring. So, this guy uses a RPM-based distro, called RedHat/CentOS/Fedora, right?! I feel sorry for him... Poor guy... Only that crap-distro(s) have a dependency hell, not our shiny Debian. I don't know what that guy is talking about, honestly (well, no, I know - rpm+yum sucks). =P Anyway, I see that there is room for improvements on software installing and updating (binary diffs, cow and etc?) but, wait, systemd instead of dpkg/apt?! I thought this thing was supposed to replace ONLY the init system, nothing more, neither udev (already engulfed)... So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? Come guys... For real?! *Please, do not let this to happen here! Do not lose Debian Compilation, and packaging, do not lose [dpkg / apt] / debian/rules, for systemd!* *Also, do not lose `dpkg-buildpackage` for systemd-buildpackage!!* This systemd thing *has already gone too far*. Keep systemd at its bare minimum level... Do not let it take over the whole distro. Honestly, I don't fear systemd itself, or binary logs... I fear things like this: Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/ So, lets move on over this systemd thing, *keep it at its bare minimum level...* I'm fine with a new init system, our current state of technology allows us to do that, something like systemd (I like its ideas, but don't like its Mr. Knowitall implementation, *it looks really ugly and bloated*), nevertheless, I'll try it later, maybe on 2016~2020, if it proves itself really stable (i.e., a nonissue in the near future) AND upstream developers change their attitude / behavior on bug handling, etc... Please guys, don't take me wrong (no flame wars okay?!)... I'm just concerned about the preservation of our amazing Linux/kFreeBSD distro! Keeping `sysvinit-core` in Debian 8 (9, 10...) *at a reliable level* *is a wise thing to do*. Just in case... (I don't trust RedHat neither the Corporatocracy). So! Let the men write their own init scripts powered by `sysvinit-core` for a long time ahead! Don't throw this away! Also, keep kfreebsd flavor for how long as possible (*without systemd things*, of course)! On Linux, it is fine to have systemd installed and around (like systemd-udev, logind0 and etc) but, sysvinit is important (even upstart is), do not lose it... BTW, *during Debian 8 installation, please, provide a (d-i, tasksel, alternatives, whatever) interface for selecting the initsystem*, *this is important!* I know that it seems pretty easy to just run apt-get install sysvinit-core (or preseed it) (to get rid of systemd as init) after the installation but, if that [initsystem selection] option appear (during the installation), *this will make Debian even stronger*, as the only distro that provides, at least, two (sysvinit|systemd) reliable init systems. *How cool is that?!* Also, without an interface for selecting an init system on Jessie, *the popularity contest becomes unfair*. Honestly, I would like to wake up from this systemd nightmare. I'm seeing that there is demand for a brand new Linux distribution, that will sit right in the middle of Debian and Slackware... Something like a Debian fork without DBus, systemd and PAM, but still with dpkg/apt d-i and lots of packages. Lets do it?! Lets fork Debian and remove systemd, dbus and pam out from it?! The fork `uselessd` (or a new udev) becomes more and more a necessity. Just for the record, today is the first day that I tested systemd, then, systemd-journal consumed 100% of my CPU (plus rsyslog), something related to GPM and, ecryptfs does not umount my home dir anymore, after logout... Is it a systemd problem? How can I
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Hi, Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com writes: I really do NOT want to start a flame war This statement is evidently false or misguided. I'd love to leave it at that (see?), but: Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/ Seriously? You are quoting phoronix and theregister as sources? Best, Axel Wagner -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87fveihbh1.fsf@rincewind.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Sorry man... English isn't my native language, is hard for me to express myself in another language... But yes, those sources aren't the best but, there are more, you know. :-P Best! Thiago On 20 October 2014 15:55, Axel Wagner m...@merovius.de wrote: Hi, Martinx - ジェームズ thiagocmarti...@gmail.com writes: I really do NOT want to start a flame war This statement is evidently false or misguided. I'd love to leave it at that (see?), but: Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTY1MzA Linux systemd dev says open source is 'SICK', kernel community 'awful': http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/06/poettering_says_linux_kernel_community_is_hostil/ Seriously? You are quoting phoronix and theregister as sources? Best, Axel Wagner
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 19:34, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... No, you wanted to add more oil on existing flamewars and you know it. If you don't want to start the flamewars, you should refrain sending such emails, please. But, my turn...:-P No, please don't. It's neither useful, productive nor funny. Cheers, Ondrej
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
But I need to act (at least, say something) to preserve our distro and I cannot remain in silence. Sorry... This isn't intended to be fun. Cheers! Thiago On 20 October 2014 16:57, Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 19:34, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... No, you wanted to add more oil on existing flamewars and you know it. If you don't want to start the flamewars, you should refrain sending such emails, please. But, my turn...:-P No, please don't. It's neither useful, productive nor funny. Cheers, Ondrej
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
If you have the unresistible urge to act, then go fix a bug. Or help with triaging the bugs - finding reproducible test case also helps. Turn that urge into something productive. Flaming in the mailing list isn't helpful, it's exactly the oposite. Cheers, Ondrej On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 21:00, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: But I need to act (at least, say something) to preserve our distro and I cannot remain in silence. Sorry... This isn't intended to be fun. Cheers! Thiago On 20 October 2014 16:57, Ondřej Surý [1]ond...@sury.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 19:34, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... No, you wanted to add more oil on existing flamewars and you know it. If you don't want to start the flamewars, you should refrain sending such emails, please. But, my turn...:-P No, please don't. It's neither useful, productive nor funny. Cheers, Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server References 1. mailto:ond...@sury.org
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Okay, I agree with you. I just find two bugs when with systemd, I'll fill the bug reports. Those problems I'm seeing are reproducible. Please, forgive me, I don't want to make things worse, I just want to *express my concerns* about this systemd-situation... I'm with Debian because *it is unique*, stable *and it still have sysvinit*, if it loses its singularity, then, Debian will be killed / forgotten, or forked. Best! Thiago On 20 October 2014 17:16, Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org wrote: If you have the unresistible urge to act, then go fix a bug. Or help with triaging the bugs - finding reproducible test case also helps. Turn that urge into something productive. Flaming in the mailing list isn't helpful, it's exactly the oposite. Cheers, Ondrej On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 21:00, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: But I need to act (at least, say something) to preserve our distro and I cannot remain in silence. Sorry... This isn't intended to be fun. Cheers! Thiago On 20 October 2014 16:57, Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014, at 19:34, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: I really do NOT want to start a flame war, I know that you guys are tired about this init subject appearing over and over... No, you wanted to add more oil on existing flamewars and you know it. If you don't want to start the flamewars, you should refrain sending such emails, please. But, my turn...:-P No, please don't. It's neither useful, productive nor funny. Cheers, Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org wrote: No, please don't. It's neither useful, productive nor funny. Actually your message is even worse. It isn't useful or productive. And it certainly isn't funny. But it is definitely censorious, which I, and I suspect many others, find offensive. Please stop telling people what do to. Especially if your request is that they stop discussing issues that are important TO THEM. Your messages affect me like drool -- something I prefer to avoid. Thanks, Lee Winter Nashua, New Hampshire United States of America
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Please do not use HTML mail on Debian lists. Please do not flame on Debian lists. https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: tried it without success, lots of bugs popped everywhere when with systemd), Please file bugs about issues you find in Debian packages: https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html ... So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? No. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6EFHFec6JCrTvsDyaJHGJuk-Wj7+8LLyVH=byhqjjn...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Remember when men were men and wrote their own init scripts? =)
Hey Paul, I really appreciate your feedback. Glad to see that at least, systemd in Debian have some boundaries. Whew! Tks! I'll try to disable html messages for all Debian Lists at my GMail account right now, sorry about that. Nevertheless, I'm not flaming (not my intention, really), I care about Debian. ;-) Cheers! Thiago ** We don't need kdbus @ PID 1. It did not got merged into Linux 3.15... Think about it.* ** uselessd might replace systemd, since it have all that CGroups cool stuff, without systemd's useless bits. We just need a new udev! :-P* On 21 October 2014 02:21, Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: Please do not use HTML mail on Debian lists. Please do not flame on Debian lists. https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:34 AM, Martinx - ジェームズ wrote: tried it without success, lots of bugs popped everywhere when with systemd), Please file bugs about issues you find in Debian packages: https://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html ... So, is systemd even trying to replace dpkg+apt too? No. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
