Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer]

On viernes, 27 de octubre de 2017 15:40:25 -03 Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:34:14AM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez
> 
> Meyer wrote:
> >No, we are actively working towards removing Qt4 from the archive
> >during the Buster cycle. In this case libressl might help giving it a
> >little bit longer life, but nothing more.
> 
> That's entirely up to you; but, that would not (and should not) prevent
> anyone else interested in doing so from maintaining qt4 in Debian, if
> they wished. That said, I in no uncertain terms and with great sadness
> lack the time to commit to it myself (and many other things I care about
> in Debian). So I fully expect it to be orphaned and removed.

With Qt3 we went that way: we did our best to get most stuff ported to Qt4 
then when we knew we got most of the it done we did orphan it and after some 
weeks without anyone adoptiong it we asked for it's removal.

Yes, we do understand that sometimes the only way out is to remove packages, 
but porting from Qt4 to qt5 is not that difficult too (it's even easier than 
the qt3 to Qt4 one).

I still think that if someone misses a Qt4-based app/lib the right thing to do 
is to port it. That will give the app/lib a whole new lifespan too.

Regards, Lisandro.

-- 
Without us [Free Software developers], people would study computer science
and programming without ever having seen a real program in its entirety.
That's like becoming writers without ever having read a complete book.
  Matthias Ettrich, founder of the KDE project.
  http://www.efytimes.com/efytimes/25412/news.htm

Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/


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Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 08:05:53PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 03:40:25PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

The rationale for keeping qt4 in the archive for me (same for gtk1,
gtk2, etc.) is so that people could continue to build or run
out-of-distro legacy software far into the future. It saddens me that I
could very likely run an arbitrary decade-old win32 program on a modern
Windows machine (although not win16 anymore!) but the rapid churn in
Linux land means we have no such similar story.

Just bundle the libs, as you would do on Windows, and you'll be fine (wrt
Qt, not wrt libc, but that's a separate problem). After all, running
software compiled on a different system was never fully supported even if
the dependencies were available.


I guess you are right that simply having the libs in the archive is not
sufficient for what I've described, but bundling them is a solution only
for the authors (or packagers) of the software we're talking about, not
future users.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Paul Wise]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:

> Just bundle the libs, as you would do on Windows, and you'll be fine (wrt
> Qt, not wrt libc, but that's a separate problem). After all, running
> software compiled on a different system was never fully supported even if
> the dependencies were available.

I have a machine mainly used to install Debian games. I had to stop
upgrading it because when games get removed due to obsolete libraries
getting removed and I keep those removed games/libraries installed, I
can't upgrade the rest of the system due to conflicts between the
removed packages and new packages. I've come to the conclusion that I
want to move all of the removed games into flatpaks/snaps
automatically generated from the snapshot.d.o archives. This is
probably the right sort of solution for all sorts of other
unmaintained software too, including stuff that is stuck on Qt4.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 03:40:25PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> The rationale for keeping qt4 in the archive for me (same for gtk1,
> gtk2, etc.) is so that people could continue to build or run
> out-of-distro legacy software far into the future. It saddens me that I
> could very likely run an arbitrary decade-old win32 program on a modern
> Windows machine (although not win16 anymore!) but the rapid churn in
> Linux land means we have no such similar story.
Just bundle the libs, as you would do on Windows, and you'll be fine (wrt
Qt, not wrt libc, but that's a separate problem). After all, running
software compiled on a different system was never fully supported even if
the dependencies were available.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:34:14AM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez
Meyer wrote:

No, we are actively working towards removing Qt4 from the archive
during the Buster cycle. In this case libressl might help giving it a
little bit longer life, but nothing more.


That's entirely up to you; but, that would not (and should not) prevent
anyone else interested in doing so from maintaining qt4 in Debian, if
they wished. That said, I in no uncertain terms and with great sadness
lack the time to commit to it myself (and many other things I care about
in Debian). So I fully expect it to be orphaned and removed.


If someone tries to become it's new maintainer in order to keep it in
the archive then [s]he must know that it will also become the de-facto
upstream for a more than two years dead-upstream code.


The rationale for keeping qt4 in the archive for me (same for gtk1,
gtk2, etc.) is so that people could continue to build or run
out-of-distro legacy software far into the future. It saddens me that I
could very likely run an arbitrary decade-old win32 program on a modern
Windows machine (although not win16 anymore!) but the rapid churn in
Linux land means we have no such similar story.

Case in point, nearly any of the old Loki software games/installers are
broken on modern systems without quite a bit of surgery (the bash 3->4
migration is the first major culprit, but there are others).

But as I said earlier I cannot contribute towards supporting this pipe
dream and what little time I have for Debian is better spent elsewhere.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer]

Hi Jonathan!

On martes, 17 de octubre de 2017 08:49:58 -03 Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 03:29:31PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez
> 
> Meyer wrote:
> >Hi everyone! This is the required notice before starting with the mass
> >bug filling in order to *try* to remove Qt4 in Buster.
> 
> It has only just occurred to me that if libressl is packaged for Debian
> (at least one other thread discussing this in the context of SSH) and
> libressl implements the OpenSSL 1.0 ABI, and the practically qt4 linked
> with libressl actually worked, then (assuming anyone is prepared to
> maintain it) qt4 could remain in Debian too.

No, we are actively working towards removing Qt4 from the archive during the 
Buster cycle. In this case libressl might help giving it a little bit longer 
life, but nothing more.

If someone tries to become it's new maintainer in order to keep it in the 
archive then [s]he must know that it will also become the de-facto upstream 
for a more than two years dead-upstream code.

-- 
Moore's Law: The speed of processors will double every 18 months.
Gate's Law: The speed of software will halve every 18 months.
  Mysticalfruit en Slashdot

Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/


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Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 03:29:31PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez
Meyer wrote:

Hi everyone! This is the required notice before starting with the mass
bug filling in order to *try* to remove Qt4 in Buster.


It has only just occurred to me that if libressl is packaged for Debian
(at least one other thread discussing this in the context of SSH) and
libressl implements the OpenSSL 1.0 ABI, and the practically qt4 linked
with libressl actually worked, then (assuming anyone is prepared to
maintain it) qt4 could remain in Debian too.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Sune Vuorela]

On 2017-09-22, Jonathan Dowland  wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 03:29:31PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer 
> wrote:
>>Jonathan Dowland 
>>   qtscrob
>
> The right thing to do here is probably to remove this from the archive.
> But out of curiosity I did look at porting it forward to qt5: I found
> someone else's patch for the code, then got as far as wondering why

Unless it does things interacting directly with the windowing system or
uses the qt3 support part of qt4, it is probably in the "99% of code
just works"

> there wasn't a libqt5-dev available to my Debian machines before I ran
> out of time.

you most likely don't want a libqt5-all-the-things-dev. Qt nowadays is
so large and has so many components that you probably aren't using all
of it.

Start from qtbase5-dev and add on from there.

/Sune

Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 02:15:44PM +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote:

You probably want qtbase5-dev.


Thank you for the hint. Mumble mumble bad package names mumble, but I'll
go and read [¹] before I do anything else.

¹ http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/packagingqtbasedstuff.html

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Emilio Pozuelo Monfort]

On 22/09/17 14:09, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 03:29:31PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
> wrote:
>> Jonathan Dowland 
>>   qtscrob
> 
> The right thing to do here is probably to remove this from the archive.
> But out of curiosity I did look at porting it forward to qt5: I found
> someone else's patch for the code, then got as far as wondering why
> there wasn't a libqt5-dev available to my Debian machines before I ran
> out of time.

You probably want qtbase5-dev.

Emilio

Re: Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 03:29:31PM -0300, Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer 
wrote:

Jonathan Dowland 
  qtscrob


The right thing to do here is probably to remove this from the archive.
But out of curiosity I did look at porting it forward to qt5: I found
someone else's patch for the code, then got as far as wondering why
there wasn't a libqt5-dev available to my Debian machines before I ran
out of time.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Removing Qt4 in Buster

[Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer]

Hi everyone! This is the required notice before starting with the mass bug 
filling in order to *try* to remove Qt4 in Buster.

You can see the announcement here:



We have a wiki for tracking the status in 

I'm attaching a list of DDs involved.

Thanks!

-- 
Combata las características. Si una característica no es absolutamente
esencial, descártela, especialmente si tiene el mismo efecto que se
puede alcanzar mediante la combinación de otras características.
  Andrew S. Tanenbaum, de su libro "Computer Networks"

Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/
"Antoine Beaupré" 
   qthid-fcd-controller (U)

A. Maitland Bottoms 
   gnuradio
   gr-fosphor
   gr-radar
   qthid-fcd-controller

Abhijith PA 
   cortina

Adrian Knoth 
   kmidimon (U)
   libdrumstick (U)

Alberto Luaces Fernández 
   openscenegraph (U)

Alejandro Garrido Mota 
   nomnom

Alessio Treglia 
   ams (U)
   dssi (U)
   kmetronome (U)
   libdrumstick (U)
   muse (U)
   mustang-plug (U)
   radium-compressor (U)
   suil (U)
   v4l2ucp

Alexander GQ Gerasiov 
   qxmlrpc

Alexander Rodin 
   qstardict

Alexander Sack 
   ntrack

Alexander Sack 
   gnash (U)

Alice Ferrazzi 
   daemonfs

Andreas Beckmann 
   i7z

Andreas Metzler 
   pfstools (U)

Andreas Tille 
   ball (U)
   bppphyview (U)
   clonalframe (U)
   clustalx (U)
   edfbrowser (U)
   freemedforms-project (U)
   imagevis3d (U)
   libbpp-qt (U)
   liborigin2 (U)
   libquazip (U)
   otb (U)
   qtiplot (U)
   qwtplot3d (U)
   rlplot (U)
   sofa-framework (U)

Andrew Ross 
   plplot

Andrew Shadura 
   postbooks (U)
   postbooks-updater (U)
   wpa (U)

Anibal Monsalve Salazar 
   pcp (U)

Anthony Fok 
   golang-github-yosssi-ace (U)
   txtreader (U)

Anton Gladky 
   libqglviewer (U)
   liggghts (U)
   paraview (U)
   pivy (U)
   qtiplot (U)
   soqt (U)
   woo (U)

Anton Gladky 
   freemat (U)

Antti Järvinen 
   qemuctl

Arnaud Cornet 
   gnudoq

Arnout Engelen 
   kmetronome (U)
   libdrumstick (U)
   stretchplayer (U)

Aron Xu 
   fcitx (U)

Axel Beckert 
   amora-server
   evolvotron

Barak A. Pearlmutter 
   mldemos
   stopmotion

Bareos Packaging Team 
   bareos

Barry deFreese 
   attal (U)

Bart Martens 
   kcheckers

Bas Zoetekouw 
   edfbrowser (U)

Bastien Roucariès 
   kbibtex (U)

Benda Xu 
   scim (U)

Benjamin Drung 
   esperanza

Benjamin Mesing 
   packagesearch

Bernd Zeimetz 
   gmic
   gpsbabel
   gpsd
   zbar

Bjoern Erik Nilsen 
   stopmotion (U)

Boris Pek 
   eiskaltdcpp
   psi-plus-l10n
   qpxtool
   yagf

Carsten Leonhardt 
   bacula (U)

Changwoo Ryu 
   qimhangul (U)

ChangZhuo Chen (陳昌倬) 
   codequery
   gcin (U)
   hime (U)

Charles Plessy 
   clustalx (U)

Charlie Smotherman 
   openteacher

Chase Douglas 
   rinputd

Christian M. Amsüss 
   opencsg

Christian Metscher 
   noblenote (U)

Christian Perrier 
   openambit (U)

Christian T. Steigies 
   gle-graphics (U)

Christoph Egger 
   katarakt

Christoph Martin 
   tipp10

Christophe Prud'homme 
   paraview (U)

Clay Weber 
   libalkimia (U)

Colin Tuckley 
   unixcw (U)

Cédric Boutillier 
   qtruby (U)

Daniel Echeverry 
   ophcrack (U)

Daniel Gimpelevich 
   pianobooster (U)

Daniel Leidert 
   shelxle (U)

Daniel Pocock 
   postbooks (U)
   postbooks-updater (U)

Daniel Schepler 
   qtads

Dariusz Dwornikowski 
   openpref (U)

David Palacio 
   qtruby (U)
   smokegen (U)
   smokeqt (U)

David Paleino 
   alt-key
   comparepdf
   diffpdf
   gambas3 (U)
   webkit-image

Dean Evans 
   auralquiz (U)