Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 03:43:32PM +0200, Erich Schubert wrote: Redhat seems to be going to use a common look for their desktops (GNOME as well as KDE) in their new beta featuring a new icon set. Check out the screenshots at http://www.gnomedesktop.org/article.php?sid=616mode=order=0 I like them and i think they are impressive... It's one of the things Apple proved: desktop and apps that look smooth do make their users feel comfortable with them ;) While I think that it's generally a good idea to integrate these both desktops in as many ways as possible, I think that this is something that should be tackled upstream. We should stick with the default look of those desktop environments. - Sebastian
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
#include hallo.h * Sebastian Rittau [Sat, Aug 31 2002, 03:44:31AM]: I like them and i think they are impressive... It's one of the things Apple proved: desktop and apps that look smooth do make their users feel comfortable with them ;) While I think that it's generally a good idea to integrate these both desktops in as many ways as possible, I think that this is something that should be tackled upstream. We should stick with the default look of those desktop environments. I think we just need a meta package which contains the color scheme data and pixmaps and some debconf questions aka: Would you like to use a uniform theme (colors, icons) for all users? If yes, which one?. Options: - Debian Theme (dark) - Debian Theme (bright) - Some Other Theme - use default theme of each software part This metapackage should be installed as one of the first when installing x-window-system task package. When a WM or desktop environment are configured in postinst, they can look for the debconf data of the-meta-package, generate a theme for their purposes (or even include prepared theme files in the package) and install it as default. OR SET IT as recommended theme if they offer a pre-setup dialog like KDE does. Gruss/Regards, Eduard. -- Gromitt Joey: wie drauf bekommen... habe hier kein netzanschlus (permission denied in der Firma) und Floppy hat das Ding nicht :) Joey dann mach's @home Gromitt Joey: aber ich will ich das jetzt machen :) *stampf* .. :) Joey Gromitt, kauf Dir 1 Netzanschluss. Wieso begibst Du Dich auch in die Wueste, wenn Du was trinken willst. *kopfschuettel* -- #debian.de
Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
Redhat seems to be going to use a common look for their desktops (GNOME as well as KDE) in their new beta featuring a new icon set. Check out the screenshots at http://www.gnomedesktop.org/article.php?sid=616mode=order=0 I like them and i think they are impressive... It's one of the things Apple proved: desktop and apps that look smooth do make their users feel comfortable with them ;) Apart from the question if KDE and GNOME2 should be made to look similar (KDE developers were pretty angry at RedHats step), should we try to make a Debian look default? (Provided that someone does Debian Themes...) This look doesn't need to be shared from GNOME2 to KDE (although i don't see the reason not to do so...) but it could make Debian become some Brand that looks like quality, too ;) Actually one of the reasons some people didn't like Gnome 1.4 was the default configuration... This Distribution Theme could also take a look at default configurations... The other way would be to leave this to upstream... GNOME2 is already pushing on having a standard GNOME2-look (which i like very much) and just distribute Defaults as-is from upstream... (although it should be easily possible to have a separate debian-common-look package or something like that...) Maybe someone could give a good reason to do so or not to do so... It could be as simple things as using the debian color as default for highlights instead of the usual default-blue for highlights many themes use... I don't have a real opinion, but i do thing that looks begin to matter for linux apps and desktops... Greetings, Erich
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 03:43:32PM +0200, Erich Schubert wrote: I don't have a real opinion, but i do thing that looks begin to matter for linux apps and desktops... I agree with you. I think that the default Distribution theme really matters; RH and MDK have very nice default desktop themes but Debian doesn't have any. I know that they hired graphic artists. AFAIK, we don't have any. I'm sure we could find volonteers. My 2 cents. Cheers, -- Jérôme Marant
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
Erich Schubert [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Apart from the question if KDE and GNOME2 should be made to look similar (KDE developers were pretty angry at RedHats step), should we try to make a Debian look default? (Provided that someone does Debian Themes...) By all means, anything that makes KDE look less hideous is good/joke? No, seriously, it would be less confusing for novice users. More experienced ones already know how to change themes and perhaps make everything look consistent, but it's a considerable ammount of work. But the screenshots are all but impressive. I had actually expected to look at a screenshot and think uhm... is that GTK+ or Qt? Diverging UI policies probably makes that goal very hard to achieve, not to mention the fact that different programmers program differently and -- even with a UI policy at hand -- applications are going to deviate here and there. Even more, modulo a couple of icons here and there, there are things which are visibly different. If they like the KDE XP-like eye candy, then get someone to make a matching engine for GTK+. Personally it makes me puke... I have this prejudice that a desktop that I'm going to be looking at 8 hours a day has to make a very well reasoned use of color and contrast. It could be as simple things as using the debian color that reddish tone? Please no; it's a very nice color, but I don't think people want to look at it for more than 5 seconds at a time. -- Marcelo | Go ahead, bake my quiche [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Magrat instructs the castle cook |(Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies)
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Friday 30 August 2030 06:50, Jérôme Marant wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 03:43:32PM +0200, Erich Schubert wrote: I don't have a real opinion, but i do thing that looks begin to matter for linux apps and desktops... I agree with you. I think that the default Distribution theme really matters; RH and MDK have very nice default desktop themes but Debian doesn't have any. I know that they hired graphic artists. AFAIK, we don't have any. I'm sure we could find volonteers. My 2 cents. Cheers, I also agree. There was a moment of bah we are not a company but in the end, I think a little help in giving our users a good looking default would go a long way. Of course not being a KDE or GNOME user I would also like to see this extended to the simple window managers as well. Provided we *ONLY* muck with things like colors, icons, and root images this should be fine. Actually changing code like RH did to remove the About box would not be good.
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
that reddish tone? Please no; it's a very nice color, but I don't think people want to look at it for more than 5 seconds at a time. why? In my windowmaker I'm using default debian-theme, and I like it very much :-) -- Mati ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Sounds like a Windows problem, try calling Microsoft support
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
Jérôme Marant wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 03:43:32PM +0200, Erich Schubert wrote: I don't have a real opinion, but i do thing that looks begin to matter for linux apps and desktops... I agree with you. I think that the default Distribution theme really matters; RH and MDK have very nice default desktop themes but Debian doesn't have any. I know that they hired graphic artists. AFAIK, we don't have any. I'm sure we could find volonteers. Why the need of distribution theme? Every other major distribution having its own look, Debian can differentiate itself by sticking with the upstream look :. KDE3.1 look nice out of the box (and GNOME2 probably too, haven't seen that). Enough rambling, i have some real proposal for the situation, though (: We can provide debian wallpaper/logo/icon etc. (it is already done AFAIK). Probably packages like kde-gnome-theme and gnome-kde-theme providing look of gnome to kde and vice versa is good idea. Also, gnome-debian-theme and kde-debian-theme are good idea, if there is someone with skill and time to create them. Packaging gnome icons for use with kde (and the other way around, too), should be times easier than creating new set from the ground up. Remaking color schemes should be quite easy, too. The widget styles are the hard part... This could use some help from KDE and GNOME developers, but i'm not very optimistic about that. These can be part of respective kde/gnome metapackages. The metapackage can then provide debconf question about default look (eg. for KDE: KDE native lookfeel, GNOME lookfeel, Debian lookfeel (if someone created such a package)). You can even make the Debian entry default ;). As of the menu, there is already infrastructure in place. With the ongoing menu system rewrite, this will get even better. The KDE and GNOME packagers can back up the default menu somewhere (to make it available for ones who like it better) and make debian menu default. The debconf question is the way to go here, too. OTOH the user should be in charge of menu layout... The second possible solution (i can think of), is to make menu system capable of building KDE-like menu structure, GNOME-like one, etc. I don't know if this is possible with Debian menu package, but if not, it is worth consideration IMHO. Please, please, please, do not change the default without asking user first. Debian users tend to know what they want. My 2 cents. Cheers, my .02 euro :) cheers yenar -- --- Yenar Calentaure mail: yenar(at)host.sk homepage: http://yenar.host.sk --- The universe is entering maintenance mode in 2 minutes. Please logout. -- Your administrator ---
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
No, seriously, it would be less confusing for novice users. More experienced ones already know how to change themes and perhaps make everything look consistent, but it's a considerable ammount of work. Especially since KDE asks at the beginning which style they want to use anyway... If we add a Debian Theme that is the default selection, users accustomed to KDE could always select the KDE default look at the first login... (But i HATE that druid of KDE... why do i have to select the language and keyboard again? my admin already configured these...) are things which are visibly different. If they like the KDE XP-like eye candy, then get someone to make a matching engine for GTK+. Personally it makes me puke... I have this prejudice that a desktop that I'm going to be looking at 8 hours a day has to make a very well reasoned use of color and contrast. Yep, the only useable KDE Themes i know are the light ones ;) I prefer Gnome2 for the very same reasons, that it hasn't got much eye candy (except icons with nice shadows ;) It could be as simple things as using the debian color that reddish tone? Please no; it's a very nice color, but I don't think people want to look at it for more than 5 seconds at a time. Yep, it's a major drawback we don't have a discrete color - well, ok, that SuSE Green would be even uglier, but i remember having seen KDE Themes using that very color ;) Thats why i considered it for highlight uses only. Marking text with that ugly color is ok imho ;) Any better suggestion? I'd like to use dark red, but red is... redhat? Well, their screenshots doesn't suggest they use it for themes though... * Maybe we should put out a call for Artwork? Greetings, Erich
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
Provided we *ONLY* muck with things like colors, icons, and root images this should be fine. Actually changing code like RH did to remove the About box would not be good. I never look at about boxes anyway, so why remove them? ;) This has nothing to do with common look, and all Interface Guidelines include an about box in the Help menu. I didn't follow the discussion why KDE is angry about RedHat, if it was for the removal of about boxes i think KDE is right to be angry... Greetings, Erich
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
Mateusz Papiernik [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: why? In my windowmaker I'm using default debian-theme, and I like it very much :-) But AFAIR in the Window Maker theme it's used for the active (?) title bar. That's a very good use because it's the one element in the desktop which your are using, but you don't actually look at the title bar, you look at the window's content. -- Marcelo | It's a god-eat-god world. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Friday 30 August 2002 09:03, Yenar Calentaure wrote: Please, please, please, do not change the default without asking user first. Debian users tend to know what they want. And the clueful user almost never uses the default anyways. But even if they do want to we just provide an option in the theme chooser Default KDE Look or somesuch.
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
But AFAIR in the Window Maker theme it's used for the active (?) title bar. That's a very good use because it's the one element in the desktop which your are using, but you don't actually look at the title bar, you look at the window's content. yes - you're right. Never mind :-) I absolutely agree to create debian-common-themes :-) -- Mati ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Sounds like a Windows problem, try calling Microsoft support
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Friday 30 August 2002 08:05, Erich Schubert wrote: Provided we *ONLY* muck with things like colors, icons, and root images this should be fine. Actually changing code like RH did to remove the About box would not be good. I never look at about boxes anyway, so why remove them? ;) This has nothing to do with common look, and all Interface Guidelines include an about box in the Help menu. I didn't follow the discussion why KDE is angry about RedHat, if it was for the removal of about boxes i think KDE is right to be angry... There was an About KDE box which was removed/hidden/had its text changed, I did not follow closely.
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On 08/30/2002 08:43:32 AM Erich Schubert wrote: It's one of the things Apple proved: desktop and apps that look smooth do make their users feel comfortable with them ;) No, they proved if you do not give users a choice of nothing or Apple's theme the users prefer to use their theme rather than an abacus or count on their fingers. The problem is, I experiment with and chose window managers by going to the website and look at the pretty screenshots. If I like the screenshot, then it's a quick apt-get install somethingwm. I expect to get what I saw on upstream's screenshots. If I like the look of ratpoison, and someone themes it to look like W95, I'm not going to like it when I'm surprised with Debian's themed version. This is different from integrating the Debian menu system into the WM, because that is a utility thing that does not damage the artistic-ness of the WM. For example, modifying a work of art so the frame can hang up using Coca Cola brand picture hanging nails or sticking a little plaque on the frame saying this painting donated to the museum by Coca Cola is perfectly acceptable because it (more or less) doesn't damage the artistic impact the artist tried to make. However, if Coke painted over the Mona Lisa so she was drinking a coke, before they donated it to the museum, that would be totally hideous from an artistic integrity standpoint, immoral even if it is perfectly legal.
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 05:02:46PM +0200, Erich Schubert wrote: (But i HATE that druid of KDE... why do i have to select the language and keyboard again? my admin already configured these...) Because some admins, unlike the rest of us, thinks users want's to have software in their local language and use local keyboard layout, then we indeed want's to have our software in english and us keyboard layout with local as an switchable option, right? -- Peter Mathiasson, peter at mathiasson dot nu, http://www.mathiasson.nu GPG Fingerprint: A9A7 F8F6 9821 F415 B066 77F1 7FF5 C2E6 7BF2 F228 pgpmuzJjwXWL7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
If I like the look of ratpoison, and someone themes it to look like W95, I'm not going to like it when I'm surprised with Debian's themed version. so maybe debconf should ask (when installing windowmanager) which theme do you like - original from wm, or this debian theme ? -- Mati ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Sounds like a Windows problem, try calling Microsoft support
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 05:26:03PM +0200, Peter Mathiasson wrote: Because some admins, unlike the rest of us, thinks users want's to have s/want's/wants software in their local language and use local keyboard layout, then we indeed want's to have our software in english and us keyboard layout s/want's/wants with local as an switchable option, right? -- Peter Mathiasson, peter at mathiasson dot nu, http://www.mathiasson.nu GPG Fingerprint: A9A7 F8F6 9821 F415 B066 77F1 7FF5 C2E6 7BF2 F228 pgp4tQBjTHveo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Friday 30 August 2002 08:29, Vince Mulhollon wrote: The problem is, I experiment with and chose window managers by going to the website and look at the pretty screenshots. If I like the screenshot, then it's a quick apt-get install somethingwm. I expect to get what I saw on upstream's screenshots. If I like the look of ratpoison, and someone themes it to look like W95, I'm not going to like it when I'm surprised with Debian's themed version. More often than not the screen shots you see are not what the wm looks like by default either.
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On 08/30/2002 10:34:18 AM Mateusz Papiernik wrote: If I like the look of ratpoison, and someone themes it to look like W95, I'm not going to like it when I'm surprised with Debian's themed version. so maybe debconf should ask (when installing windowmanager) which theme do you like - original from wm, or this debian theme ? That is an excellent idea. However, a new can of worms opens. If you thought vi vs emacs was a good flame-fest, how will we come up with an artistic standard that all will agree to? Redhat has it easy, boss says either you like the theme I pick or you find new job I predict this will get just about as far as requiring emacs to start up in VI emulation mode, to make it more consistent for the users. For example: I can't stand KDE's redmond theme, and I'm quite a fan of the B-II window decorations and the QT-SGI style. Then again, I'm weird enough to keep my panel on the right side of the screen (next to my konsole scrollbars) which has the annoying side effect of making all the ticks on the K menu point the wrong direction when I open the K menu. And I like running xplanet -sun in the root.
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
Because some admins, unlike the rest of us, thinks users want's to have software in their local language and use local keyboard layout, then we indeed want's to have our software in english and us keyboard layout with local as an switchable option, right? Which means *everbody* needs to answer these questions once at their first login, instead of just changing them in the control center, like all other options, when we actually DO disagree with our admins preferences? There is no NEED to force the user to confirm these settings, as they can be changed at any time in the control center. Language is indeed quite special, but i prefer there the gnome way - selecting a different language in the login manager is nicer. Because i don't have to select my language... Greetings, Erich
Re: Should we customize apps for a common debian-look?
On Fri, 2002-08-30 at 10:55, Sean 'Shaleh' Perry wrote: I also agree. There was a moment of bah we are not a company but in the end, I think a little help in giving our users a good looking default would go a long way. Of course not being a KDE or GNOME user I would also like to see this extended to the simple window managers as well. Personally, I really like that background that comes with the wmaker package. How about we move that to, say, base-files, and use it for the default background for everything?
