Re: debian can be better
Le dimanche 31 octobre 2010 à 22:41 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a écrit : Also, they use Banshee and Tomboy, which results in including Mono to their default install. (Okay, this is a disk-space problem, but also crazy) We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale as the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings. And now they won't use GNOME3 GNOME-Shell as default but an own surface specially designed for Netbooks as default desktop. (It will be changed to match bigger screen size, but it's initial design was for Netbooks, so this will become difficult) Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part than on the “designed for netbooks” part. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone, `-[…] I will see what I can do for you.” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: debian can be better
First of all: Sorry, I didn't want to send this mail to the public list... On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 07:46:27 +0100, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Le dimanche 31 octobre 2010 à 22:41 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a écrit : Also, they use Banshee and Tomboy, which results in including Mono to their default install. (Okay, this is a disk-space problem, but also crazy) We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale as the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings. Also true, but I don't know how much more space the Mono bindings need compared to the C++ bindings... This would be interesting to find out! And now they won't use GNOME3 GNOME-Shell as default but an own surface specially designed for Netbooks as default desktop. (It will be changed to match bigger screen size, but it's initial design was for Netbooks, so this will become difficult) Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part than on the “designed for netbooks” part. They say if a hardware does not meet the 3D-requirements, they will have a fallback to the exiting GNOME-panel, which is the same as GNOME-Shell will do, so I don't see much difference here. To the overall topic (debian can be better): I see Ubuntu as some kind of playground for new technologies. Debian should look at Ubuntu, and they already do look at it, and use stuff which works on Ubuntu and matches the Debian policy well. Debian is much more conservative than Ubuntu is, but if some stuff Ubuntu uses turns out to be successful, Debian can use it too. Regards Matthias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/d97a0d2f44f4bfb993f6b2176a0e3...@mb8-2.1blu.de
Re: debian can be better
Le lundi 01 novembre 2010 à 11:46 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a écrit : We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale as the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings. Also true, but I don't know how much more space the Mono bindings need compared to the C++ bindings... This would be interesting to find out! You can find out for yourself: Package: libgtk2.0-cil Installed-Size: 2560 Package: libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a Installed-Size: 5368 Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part than on the “designed for netbooks” part. They say if a hardware does not meet the 3D-requirements, they will have a fallback to the exiting GNOME-panel, which is the same as GNOME-Shell will do, so I don't see much difference here. I’m not worried about 3D, I said I’d be worried about compiz. To the overall topic (debian can be better): I see Ubuntu as some kind of playground for new technologies. Debian should look at Ubuntu, and they already do look at it, and use stuff which works on Ubuntu and matches the Debian policy well. Debian is much more conservative than Ubuntu is, but if some stuff Ubuntu uses turns out to be successful, Debian can use it too. Please don’t tell Debian developers what they should do, unless you are willing to do it yourself. Cheers, -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone, `-[…] I will see what I can do for you.” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: debian can be better
On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:29:33 +0100, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Le lundi 01 novembre 2010 à 11:46 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a écrit : We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale as the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings. Also true, but I don't know how much more space the Mono bindings need compared to the C++ bindings... This would be interesting to find out! You can find out for yourself: Package: libgtk2.0-cil Installed-Size: 2560 Package: libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a Installed-Size: 5368 Wow! Never mind the C++ bindings are that big! But if you take all Mono dependencies Tomboy depends on into account, take about 21MB. (GNote takes a little less..) Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part than on the “designed for netbooks” part. They say if a hardware does not meet the 3D-requirements, they will have a fallback to the exiting GNOME-panel, which is the same as GNOME-Shell will do, so I don't see much difference here. I’m not worried about 3D, I said I’d be worried about compiz. Ah, okay... Why? (I haven't done anything with Compiz or Mutter/Clutter yet, so I really can't say which one is actually better.) To the overall topic (debian can be better): I see Ubuntu as some kind of playground for new technologies. Debian should look at Ubuntu, and they already do look at it, and use stuff which works on Ubuntu and matches the Debian policy well. Debian is much more conservative than Ubuntu is, but if some stuff Ubuntu uses turns out to be successful, Debian can use it too. Please don’t tell Debian developers what they should do, unless you are willing to do it yourself. I don't want to tell anyone what he/she should do, but IMHO it is useful to look at Ubuntu, as everything a Ubuntu release will be tested by lots of different users. I already do this for my packages, but I'm not in a position to decide anything for Debian. I can only write down my opinion on a topic, which is _never_ intended to tell someone to do something, it's just a comment. (And just my opinion.) Kind regards Matthias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e3721459163dd0e2a234c4b4a7e13...@mb8-2.1blu.de
Re: debian can be better
Mark Allums m...@allums.com writes: In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10 Maverick Meerkat. Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...? -Miles -- Dictionary, n. A malevolent literary device for cramping the growth of a language and making it hard and inelastic. This dictionary, however, is a most useful work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/877hgy853o@catnip.gol.com
Re: debian can be better
On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 05:44:27AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote: Mark Allums m...@allums.com writes: In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10 Maverick Meerkat. Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...? Miles, you can lookup their release notes if you like, but this question is really unappropriate for this list. Thanks, Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101031214428.gf3...@nighthawk.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: debian can be better
On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 05:44:27 +0900, Miles Bader mi...@gnu.org wrote: Mark Allums m...@allums.com writes: In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10 Maverick Meerkat. Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...? They don't use upstream components like the new GNOME3 notification system (which is also used on KDE4), but patch all apps to use notify-osd as they do for Kubuntu since their indicator-kde patches were rejected. (This is just one example) They moved window-controls to the left side without any appropriate reason, ignonring the wishes of their community. Also, they use Banshee and Tomboy, which results in including Mono to their default install. (Okay, this is a disk-space problem, but also crazy) And now they won't use GNOME3 GNOME-Shell as default but an own surface specially designed for Netbooks as default desktop. (It will be changed to match bigger screen size, but it's initial design was for Netbooks, so this will become difficult) We'll see if this way of doing things is successful. In my opinion, it's not, but I might be wrong - this is what makes the Ubuntu case so interesting! (And if they do wrong, they can always switch back) Regards Matthias Klumpp -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/a2e40f74c5fdf1a8be73e9ae0fd6d...@mb8-2.1blu.de
Re: debian can be better
Michael Banck mba...@debian.org writes: Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...? Miles, you can lookup their release notes if you like, but this question is really unappropriate for this list. If such information is deemed too inflammatory, an off-list reply would be cool too... Thanks, -Miles -- Friendship, n. A ship big enough to carry two in fair weather, but only one in foul. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87sjzl7o75@catnip.gol.com
Re: debian can be better
Debian should improve translation linguas.Quando used for other help topics were all in English! Despite the selected language is Portuguese from Brazil! Christian PERRIER bubu...@debian.org It seems that you are well qualified to help with that. Christian seems to be one of the leaders of the Debian translation project, I suggest that you contact him off-list to discover how you can help improve this. Aha, I actually read the original message and pondered following up...which I finally didn't (probably the hey, you should do like Ubuntu prank just annoyed me, even if Pedro can't be blamed for this, from an end user POV). Even easier: get in touch with people from the Brazilian Portuguese localization team (debian-l10n-portugu...@lists.debian.orgit is actually used only for *Brazilian* Portuguese l10n work). And contribute there. Pedro, the pt_BR team is already doing a tremendous work in translating many things (for instance, they are among the leaders for translation of packages descriptions). Of course, you'll always find something more that needs to be translated or adapted.but, believe me, the brazilian Debian community is among the most active ones I've met. And the annual Debian conference might even end up in your country in 2012, in case you would want to be involved even more. So, as you see: there are certainly many things to improve. But just telling Debian should do this or Debian should do that won't make it happen. Debian is not a company, it's a collaborative project with no dictator telling people what they should be working on. So things are done when someone feels the need to do them. Not to tell that user feedback is ignored. Of course, it is used and we often appreciate getting it. It even often motivates people to work on a specific feature. But don't expect that much abou tthings happening because you ask for it...or you say they should be done..:-) Project developers should use social networks to probe the needs of Debian users (Masters or beginners).Thank you for All Sorry, I don't have time for that, I don't even have enough time to do as much development work for Debian as I wish. Now if you could find some funding for me so I could cease some of my paid work then things would change... And many people will probably answer that, too. Also notice that many Debian contributors have personal or philosophical issues with some widespread social networks (even though many of us are present on some of them). signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debian can be better
Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker: Speaking for myself I'm more than happy for people who want Debian with non- free software to use Ubuntu. I think that they are doing a great job of making a Debian-derived distribution that supports non-free software and is easy to use. In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10 Maverick Meerkat. I think Debian is fine the way it is. Dedicated to freedom, but not bone-headed about it. I wish Nvidia and AMD/ATI would come to better terms with the devs of all Linux distributions, but as long as I can continue to take advantage of non-free where it's appropriate for me, I'll be satisfied. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cca0925.3050...@allums.com
debian can be better
Debian needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: ( In this case I think Debian should look a little closer to Ubuntu, referring to usability. You can maintain a perfectly usable OS for both beginners and advanced users of Linux technology, without changing the philosophy course Debian. Debian should improve translation linguas.Quando used for other help topics were all in English! Despite the selected language is Portuguese from Brazil! Project developers should use social networks to probe the needs of Debian users (Masters or beginners).Thank you for All
Re: debian can be better
Hi, Pedro Paolo: On Wednesday 27 October 2010 14:46:08 Pedro Paulo Argolo wrote: Debian needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: ( You should ask for that to Nvidia. You can bet the day Nvidia produces proper open source drivers will be the day Debian will be able to properly support them. Of course you can think the Ubuntu way is the proper one and Debian's[1] is not but, of course too, you are absolutly free to use Ubuntu instead of Debian. Cheers. [1] http://www.debian.org/social_contract -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201010271601.06645.jesus.nava...@undominio.net
Re: debian can be better
Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker: On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Pedro Paulo Argolo jamer.ja...@hotmail.com wrote: needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: ( The change from nv to nouveau was a good improvement for my main system (Thinkpad T61), 2D graphics performance improved noticeably although I do occasionally get transient corrupted bitmaps. Debian is dedicated to free software (which precludes the non-free NVidia driver from being in main) and I don't want the security risk of running binary-only software on my important systems. Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc. nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful for powerful desktop users. On the ATI/AMD side, the free radeon driver does a quite good job, but since it uses KMS you have to disable KMS to get some performance (radeon+KMS = quite slow) The security side: Sure, security issues could be easily fixed with open drivers, but if I remember right, the only security issue with a closed-source prop. X11 video driver was 2-3 years ago with the nvidia one. And if there are some new sec. issues, you can still switch. I am not aware of anything that stops a Debian user from using a binary-only Xorg driver. Not supported by us, officialy, they are also not on our installation cds (users have to activate non-free by themselve). Intel video cards work really well in my experience, performance is great including on 3D graphics with games such as Warzone 2100, Super Tux Carts, and Tux Racer. Given a choice I'd just buy a system with Intel graphics. It may be great with such historic games, but don't try to play modern games with intel HW ;) In this case I think Debian should look a little closer to Ubuntu, referring to usability. You can maintain a perfectly usable OS for both beginners and advanced users of Linux technology, without changing the philosophy course Debian. Ubuntu aren't as much into free software. ACK. Speaking for myself I'm more than happy for people who want Debian with non- free software to use Ubuntu. I think that they are doing a great job of making a Debian-derived distribution that supports non-free software and is easy to use. I do not agree with you at all, but mostly because of some religion reasons :p Anyway for squeeze there will be (if nothing have been changed again) an image with some non-free enabled (like firmware foo). -- /* Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards, Patrick Matthäi GNU/Linux Debian Developer E-Mail: pmatth...@debian.org patr...@linux-dev.org Comment: Always if we think we are right, we were maybe wrong. */ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: debian can be better
OoO La nuit ayant déjà recouvert d'encre ce jour du mercredi 27 octobre 2010, vers 23:48, Patrick Matthäi pmatth...@debian.org disait : Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc. nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful for powerful desktop users. nouveau supports 2D acceleration including compositing and Xvideo acceleration. I don't see what may be missing for everyday desktop use. It is even better than the nvidia driver because of its perfect support of xrandr. -- printk(autofs: Out of inode numbers -- what the heck did you do??\n); 2.0.38 /usr/src/linux/fs/autofs/root.c pgpMqdhr4JWVR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: debian can be better
Am 28.10.2010 00:05, schrieb Vincent Bernat: OoO La nuit ayant déjà recouvert d'encre ce jour du mercredi 27 octobre 2010, vers 23:48, Patrick Matthäi pmatth...@debian.org disait : Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc. nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful for powerful desktop users. nouveau supports 2D acceleration including compositing and Xvideo acceleration. I don't see what may be missing for everyday desktop use. It is even better than the nvidia driver because of its perfect support of xrandr. I am not nvidia'ish, but supporting 2D/3D acceleration is a *must have* in my eyes since many years. The performance of nouveau just sucks. Yeah if you do not need it, okay.. -- /* Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards, Patrick Matthäi GNU/Linux Debian Developer E-Mail: pmatth...@debian.org patr...@linux-dev.org Comment: Always if we think we are right, we were maybe wrong. */ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: debian can be better
I demand that Patrick Matthäi may or may not have written... Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker: On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Pedro Paulo Argolo jamer.ja...@hotmail.com wrote: needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: ( [snip] On the ATI/AMD side, the free radeon driver does a quite good job, but since it uses KMS you have to disable KMS to get some performance (radeon+KMS = quite slow) ... but use a newer kernel and mesa 7.9 (libdrm in squeeze is new enough), and things will be quite a lot better, at least with the r300 driver. (Also, setting RADEON_HYPERZ=1 for 3D-using games is likely to improve things a little; just don't set it for everything.) [snip] -- | Darren Salt| linux at youmustbejoking | nr. Ashington, | Toon | using Debian GNU/Linux | or ds,demon,co,uk| Northumberland | back! | + RIPA NOTICE: NO CONSENT GIVEN FOR INTERCEPTION OF MESSAGE TRANSMISSION Censorship is something ### I do ### like! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/517266961c%li...@youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk
Re: debian can be better
On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Patrick Matth??i wrote: Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker: On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Pedro Paulo Argolo jamer.ja...@hotmail.com wrote: needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: ( The change from nv to nouveau was a good improvement for my main system (Thinkpad T61), 2D graphics performance improved noticeably although I do occasionally get transient corrupted bitmaps. Debian is dedicated to free software (which precludes the non-free NVidia driver from being in main) and I don't want the security risk of running binary-only software on my important systems. Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc. nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful for powerful desktop users. So, buy a graphics card that supports the features you want rather than one that doesn't. That's how the free market works. It is unfortunate when you inherit hardware from others or otherwise don't have a choice in the matter, but you get what you pay for. I was also rather embarrassed when I bought a GeForce 2 back in 2002 and discovered that Nvidia's idea of source code was a small bit of C to interface to a binary blob. I'm boycotting them until they either provide documentation or release a proper open source driver, and I encourage you all to do the same. If you already own an Nvidia card, please poke them about it, because they don't think enough people care. ATI only partially misses out in that I only buy their hardware that is old enough to be supported by DRI. I am not aware of anything that stops a Debian user from using a binary-only Xorg driver. Not supported by us, officialy, they are also not on our installation cds (users have to activate non-free by themselve). Does Ubuntu or any other distro claim to support it? If you find a bug it doesn't seem like they could do much more than tell you to take it up with the manufacturer. It's not like anyone other than nvidia can support their drivers, so if they don't want to support your favorite distro, that's up to them to decide, and up to you to care about. But, yes, it is unfortunate when you inherit hardware that is only supported by closed source drivers/X servers. When will Debian start supporting windows graphics drivers so I can use my 3Dlabs cards? ;) (Honestly, I would be rather scared if they did.) Ivan
