Re: Uncoordinated upload of the rustified librsvg

[Chris Lamb]

Dear Jonathan,

> >Debian's Dictionary is in a weird order; "Thank You" is right next to
> >the definition of "Entitlement"
> 
> Sorry this wasn't a helpful message.

(I'm a little behind on this thread alas but I just wanted to thank
you for following up with this retraction.)


Best wishes,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: salsa.debian.org: merge requests and such

[Herbert Fortes]

On 10/11/2018 17:18, Phil Morrell wrote:

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 10:36:53AM -0200, Herbert Fortes wrote:

On 09/11/2018 20:26, Colin Watson wrote:

I guessed that the particular commit was
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/pcre2/commit/6c14b51ddfc45604fd805bcadc810d437f09a30f.
(The same developer has also been doing a number of other minor cleanups
in many other packages along the same lines.)


The fix is good.

But why the new debian/changelog? It is a honest question.


It's just an alternative personal style. 


I have the same opinion.

I also think that if a package has a maintainer the maintainer's
personal style should be respected. That is the social thing
said before.

Do a fix is collab maint. Set my personal style in many other
packages that I am not directly responsible for is not.

I understand a minor cleanup that is done directly in the repository.
But doing a patch you pay attention to the fix.

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 07:07:36PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Mattia Rizzolo  writes:
> 
> > Indeed, I was very bothered.
> 
> > On the other hand, most of my reply to willy's mail was not addressed to
> > him, but to debian-devel@ at large, to have everybody else understand
> > how silly what he did was.  Replying to my email in d-private@ saying
> > "aye aye, I really want to go away" wold have been *far* more effecting
> > (even if process-wise I'd have preferred him click the damn buttons we
> > sent him) and his case would most likely already been closed.
> 
> > Instead, he decided to throw such a bothersome mail in debian-devel.
> 
> The general principle that I would advocate for here, though, is that if
> someone says clearly and explicitly "never contact me again," we should do
> what we can to never contact them again.

+1. This was a *very* clear message, in that respect, although I
certainly agree that it wasn't necessary to phrase it quite in that way.
A single sentence saying "message received", if at all, would have been
more than enough; the OP clearly wasn't interested in *why* Debian was
contacting him again after fourteen years, and any explanation to that
effect would only be a nuisance to him, anyway.

-- 
To the thief who stole my anti-depressants: I hope you're happy

  -- seen somewhere on the Internet on a photo of a billboard

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 03:49:32PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> I am thus very happy that this DD is leaving immediately - whether you see
> this as bureaucracy or not, he agreed with rules and processes when he
> joined,

There were *far* fewer of them when he did. In 2000, you didn't need an
advocate, and the NM process was very new, and very much ad hoc still.

> he agreed with the CoC,

He did not, the CoC didn't exist yet 14 years ago.

> and he deliberately chose to break quite a number of them.

Given the context that he described -- the so-called "editorial changes"
GR, I can quite understand that. That GR was quite upsetting to a large
number of people -- myself included -- and plenty of people chose to
quit the project rather than be a part of a project that allows people
to be deceived in this manner. That was a breach of trust for some
people, and given that, why would you want to care about any of the
procedures anymore?

If you weren't around at the time, I strongly suggest you research that
a bit.

Even so, I do agree with the claim that his mail was overly aggressive,
and that that wasn't really necessary.

-- 
To the thief who stole my anti-depressants: I hope you're happy

  -- seen somewhere on the Internet on a photo of a billboard

Re: salsa.debian.org: merge requests and such

[Marc Haber]

On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 15:43:41 + (UTC), Felipe Sateler
 wrote:
>But for example, about a month ago Ond?ej Nový 
>changed the Format: url of d/copyright to use https on one of my packages 
>(and I assume a lot more), and didn't notify me. I don't think it is 
>reasonable to ask for coordination for this type of changes, and I would 
>agree that even notifying is too much effort if this was done salsa-wide. 
>Some fixes are better just done than talked about :).

If that would happen to one of my packages, it would be work for me to
verify that the changed links would still work. A commit comment like
"(URLs verified working on $DATESTAMP)" would save me that work since
I'd _know_ that somebody else already did it, and it fits well into
the workflow.

>BTW, thanks Ond?ej Nový for those "editorial" fixes!

+1.

>Additionally, if one is doing an NMU, I think that should be pushed to 
>salsa if the permissions allow it.

To master, or to an NMU branch?

Greetings
Marc, big fan of branches
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | 
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: salsa.debian.org: merge requests and such

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 04:57:51PM +, Matthew Vernon wrote:

That's what Vcs-Git et al are for, isn't it?


I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying.

Right now, the only way that someone can indicate that a package is
collaboratively maintained via the control file is to have their Vcs-Git
pointing at salsa.../debian/*. (contrast this to the alioth arrangement,
where the Maintainer: field was also set to indicate this)

Therefore, the salsa "Debian" project is carrying a lot more meaning
than any other salsa project, or other potential VCS URI.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: salsa.debian.org: merge requests and such

[James McCoy]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 01:51:56PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 09, 2018 at 04:57:51PM +, Matthew Vernon wrote:
> > That's what Vcs-Git et al are for, isn't it?
> 
> I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying.

That was in response to the visibility aspect of your email.  In terms
of visibility, it doesn't matter where the repo is hosted or whether
it's in Salsa's debian org or one's own namespace -- Vcs-Git clearly
tells people where to find it.

Cheers,
-- 
James
GPG Key: 4096R/91BF BF4D 6956 BD5D F7B7  2D23 DFE6 91AE 331B A3DB

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Dominik George]

> > he agreed with the CoC,
> 
> He did not, the CoC didn't exist yet 14 years ago.

He did, if not before, when he sent his mail to a mailing list
@lists.debian.org.

He might not have realised that, of course.

-nik


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Bug#913489: ITP: x2godesktopsharing -- Share X11 desktops with other users via X2Go

[Mike Gabriel]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Mike Gabriel 

* Package name: x2godesktopsharing
  Version : 3.1.1.4
  Upstream Author : X2Go Developers 
* URL : 
https://wiki.x2go.org/doku.php/doc:usage:desktop-sharing?s[]=x2godesktopsharing
* License : GPL-2+
  Programming Lang: C++
  Description : Share X11 desktops with other users via X2Go

 X2Go is a server based computing environment with
- session resuming
- low bandwidth support
- session brokerage support
- client side mass storage mounting support
- client-side printing support
- audio support
- authentication by smartcard and USB stick
 .
 X2Go Desktop Sharing is an X2Go add-on tool that allows a user to
 grant other X2Go users access to the current session (shadow session
 support). The current session may be an X2Go session itself or simply
 a local X11 session.

Re: salsa.debian.org: merge requests and such

[Colin Watson]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 10:36:53AM -0200, Herbert Fortes wrote:
> But why the new debian/changelog? It is a honest question.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me (and indeed I'd have thought it was
best practice): make a change, add a changelog entry to go with it.  If
the maintainer wants to do something different when uploading the
package then they can always adjust it themselves.

-- 
Colin Watson   [cjwat...@debian.org]

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Carsten Leonhardt]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> The general principle that I would advocate for here, though, is that if
> someone says clearly and explicitly "never contact me again," we should do
> what we can to never contact them again.

If the message would be signed I'd agree, but for a non-signed message
that would open abuse potential. I wouldn't like to find out I've been
retired from Debian because someone faked a message like that in my
name...

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 03:38:32PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> > > he agreed with the CoC,
> > 
> > He did not, the CoC didn't exist yet 14 years ago.
> 
> He did, if not before, when he sent his mail to a mailing list
> @lists.debian.org.
> 
> He might not have realised that, of course.
> 
I don't think that you can claim that the act of sending a mail to a
list @lists.debian.org can constitute an implied agreement to accept and
abide by the code of conduct.  That is no different than "by reading
this, you are bound by these terms."  No reasonable person would
consider either of those things valid.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 06:31:35PM +0100, Carsten Leonhardt wrote:
> Russ Allbery  writes:
> 
> > The general principle that I would advocate for here, though, is that if
> > someone says clearly and explicitly "never contact me again," we should do
> > what we can to never contact them again.
> 
> If the message would be signed I'd agree, but for a non-signed message
> that would open abuse potential. I wouldn't like to find out I've been
> retired from Debian because someone faked a message like that in my
> name...

If that ever ends up happening in practice, then the person who is the
victim of that problem can simply send a signed email saying "the
previous unsigned email that claimed I didn't want to be a DD anymore
was a forgery".

Meanwhile, it makes sense to be courteous to people who were a DD once
but really couldn't care less now and want to get rid of the nagging,
which seems like a far more likely scenario.

-- 
To the thief who stole my anti-depressants: I hope you're happy

  -- seen somewhere on the Internet on a photo of a billboard

Re: Documenting copyright holders in debian/copyright

[Adrian Bunk]

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 04:30:23AM +, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> 
> 
> On October 31, 2018 3:59:42 AM UTC, Adrian Bunk  wrote:
> >On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 09:34:59PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> >>...
> >> 1.  Most licenses require copyright statements to be included. In the
> >FTP 
> >> team's view, unless a license explicitly states that  copyright
> >attributions 
> >> only apply to source distributions, they apply for source and binary,
> >so must 
> >> be documented in debian/copyright for license compliance reasons.
> >>...
> >> GPL requires an "appropriate copyright notice" for both source and
> >binary 
> >> forms.
> >
> >My reading of 7(b) of GPLv3 would be that it is not required.
> ...
> 
> Section 7 is about "material you add to a covered work", it's not about 
> things someone else has copyright on.  See section 4 which is referenced by 
> Section 5 for source distribution and Section 6 for binary distribution.

IANAL, my reading would not be that listing every single copyright 
holder is required by the term "appropriate copyright notice".

But if it is (or is for any other licence), allowing any exception in 
the archive would IMHO be irresponsible:

This would mean distributing something on our mirrors that we consider
to be a copyright violation.

Any affected copyright holder would basically be invited to take legal 
actions against a mirror in a jurisdiction of their choice if they want.

The effects of some university having to pay the costs associated with
signing a cease and desist letter for distributing Debian would not
be pretty.

Has any lawyer been consulted regarding what our legal requirements are?

> Scott K

cu
Adrian

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦ 11 novembre 2018 19:20 +0100, Wouter Verhelst :

> Meanwhile, it makes sense to be courteous to people who were a DD once
> but really couldn't care less now and want to get rid of the nagging,
> which seems like a far more likely scenario.

Then, they should click on the button they are asked to click. This
takes far less time than a long (and discourteous) rant.

I know you have good intention in trying to improve the MIA process, but
I think[*] this sends the wrong message to the current volunteers: you
can act as professionally as you can, you will still get criticism from
a few people on some minor details. Can we spare our volunteers more
carefully than rude people?

[*]: I am not part of the MIA team.
-- 
I'll burn my books.
-- Christopher Marlowe


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Dominik George]

> I don't think that you can claim that the act of sending a mail to a
> list @lists.debian.org can constitute an implied agreement to accept and
> abide by the code of conduct.  That is no different than "by reading
> this, you are bound by these terms."  No reasonable person would
> consider either of those things valid.

This is a valid argument - which should be used to change the CoC. Right
now, it does imply that by using a Debian mailing list, you agree to it.

-nik


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Chris Lamb]

Dear Mattia,

> My reply indeed had quite a grumpy tone, and I realized only after
> sending it, of course.  I need to get into the habit of asking somebody
> else to review my emails when they treat such matters.

Thank you for not only pausing for this self-reflection but for
subsequently sharing it so candidly on-list.

However, I must take slight issue with some of the ways you expressed
yourself in your follow-up.

On the one hand, people should indeed "just click those damn buttons"
and it's unfortunate that Willy chose to use the language he did, but
I would be surprised if there were no topics or issues for you
(including outside of the free software world) where reacting in a
ungentlemanly manner is likely given some history or context.

I'm also fairly confident you would agree that the fact that people
are not emotionless and predictable robots brings some much-needed
colour to this world, despite the tragic irony in that it can bring
both pain and pleasure to others.

Without wish to delve too much into the specifics, dismissing and
characterising a Developer's regrettable departure from the Project
as a childish "rage quit" appears to lack suitable empathy and
understanding for a fellow human being, yet alone a former colleague.

More concerning, though, might be the casual suggestion that someone
who reacts to "some simple emails should seek professional
psychological counselling", specifically in its implication that
someone who feels overly agitated from the reader's point of view is
by-definition mentally unstable and even has overtones of blaming
the victim.

I am certain that the abrupt response you received also engendered
strong feelings in yourself so what was written in the heat of the
moment was partially understandable, but I'm sure that you might wish
to consider modifying or even retracting some of the statements or
connotations that were made in the above light.

I hope that this episode has not deterred you from your indefatigable
work in the MIA team and that you, like me, have only the very best
wishes for your former confederate in his current endeavours.


Regards,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Adam Borowski]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 07:50:55PM +0100, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> Then, they should click on the button they are asked to click. This
> takes far less time than a long (and discourteous) rant.

Yeah... you walk out without a word, and are upset if people still care
about you?  MW acted like an ass here.

> I know you have good intention in trying to improve the MIA process, but
> I think[*] this sends the wrong message to the current volunteers: you
> can act as professionally as you can, you will still get criticism from
> a few people on some minor details. Can we spare our volunteers more
> carefully than rude people?

That's expected.  The work of a mortician (MIA is basically this) is
unpleasant, and having people lash at you just for doing it is the norm
rather than an exception.

I see no way to make Mattia's work safe from being yelled at.  Anything we
say here won't get to people MIA interacts with, and if any of us gets
MIA-but-alive, we'd long since forgotten how we're supposed to behave
(as apparently customs are different at wherever MW worked at these years).
So I hope you'll grit your teeth and keep going.  You may end up as grumpy
as formorer -- but, notably, he still hasn't stopped his thankless unpaid
work.  Yes, every time you contact him about a list issue you get a reply
in a tone so uncheery it can sour the milk in a cow, but what's admirable
is that he _keeps getting shit done_.

So in the interest of Debian, we need to keep Mattia, formorer and other
folks in such roles well stocked in DebConf beer, encouraging platitudes
and so on... :)


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ We domesticated dogs 36000 years ago; together we chased
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ animals, hung out and licked or scratched our private parts.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Cats domesticated us 9500 years ago, and immediately we got
⠈⠳⣄ agriculture, towns then cities. -- whitroth on /.

Re: I resigned in 2004

[Russ Allbery]

Carsten Leonhardt  writes:
> Russ Allbery  writes:

>> The general principle that I would advocate for here, though, is that
>> if someone says clearly and explicitly "never contact me again," we
>> should do what we can to never contact them again.

> If the message would be signed I'd agree, but for a non-signed message
> that would open abuse potential. I wouldn't like to find out I've been
> retired from Debian because someone faked a message like that in my
> name...

This theoretically could happen, but in practice using some basic
intuition while reading the message will, I think, reduce the chances to
nearly zero.  For instance, the original reply did not feel like the kind
of thing someone would forge (it's too specific, too emotional, and too
full of easily falsifiable details), not to mention that it's hard to
figure out a motive for someone to forge such a message from someone who
had been inactive in Debian for a long time.

Also, if that does happen, it's remediable later, as Wouter points out.
We're not going to do anything completely irreversible.

"Never contact me again" is what one is supposed to tell someone if they
feel like they're being harassed.  It's the sort of thing that I do think
we want to try to honor unless we have some reasonable reason to believe
that something weird is going on.  I think it's highly unlikely that
anything good for anyone will ever come out of sending another message to
someone who says that.

To be very clear, I'm not saying this to defend the rudeness of the reply,
or to say that anyone did anything wrong by following our normal MIA
process.  Just advocating for a change in procedure in the future if
someone sends that type of reply.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)