Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
2014-03-10 2:44 GMT+01:00 Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org: For that reason, I would advise not to include this game in Debian (and not to spend your time on packaging it). But note that I'm not setting the rules here. If you feel strongly that it adds value to the system, feel free to explain why, and please also explain why you think that my objections are less important than the contributions. Finally, I'm pleased to see someone here who is interested in packaging visual novels. I like that concept, and would certainly like to see more of them in Debian. Just not this one. Lots of thanks for your efforts analyzing it. I am so looking forward to having visual novels in Debian too. I haven't had time to even test this one (I can understand some German, but I'm not fluent in it, and that means quite an effort and time, as well as not really understanding everything that goes on), apart from seeing the graphics in the web page, and reading the comments in previous mails. I find your description of the game very disturbing, and I'm thinking that it may be even be triggering for some people. Having read your report, even if someone decided to package it, I wouldn't advise to include it in the archive without speaking beforehand with lawyers that could advice us on the possible risks. I'm not familiar enought with the law in different countries to know what's allowed or not, but from your analysis I fear that by distributing it we might be puting in risk the administrators of some of our mirrors, and I'd like to be sure that's not the case. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to make something that it's not illegal in at least one country in the world. For example, I would be a strong supporter of having LGBT-themed games in the archives, and they might not be legal in Russia. I really appreciate your effort in analysing a game as hard as this one might seem. Lots of thanks! Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cafotxvpasybcx50u96hidverzj-qwqj7guznpuateweycjy...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org writes: Summary: I've tried the game, and don't think it's suitable for Debian. Summary: I think I have understood Bas' objections and agree to an extent. However, I disagree with his conclusion that the game is not suitable for inclusion in a free operating system software collection. Welcome, Nils! (Keeping you separately addressed because you were in the message I'm replying to; please say so if you are subscribed.) Thank you. I happen to be subscribed to the debian-devel-games list. (Also, I've seen remarkably few replies to this; for anyone replying, please keep debian-devel-ga...@lists.debian.org in the loop.) On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 08:39:20PM +0100, Mateusz Jończyk wrote: 2014-03-03 18:37 GMT+01:00 Nils Dagsson Moskopp n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net: I am not that interested in most video games, as I think they contain needless grinding. However, I am interested in games with interesting mechanics or story, I agree that those are often very interesting. I am somewhat anxious about packaging Unteralterbach, as it may show - depending on player choices - content pertaining to sexual abuse, bdsm, consent, moral panics, slut shaming, virgin shaming, religion, etc. and makes fun of the german federal police and several contemporary public figures. However, I believe that the author has handled these issues in a suitable manner, delivering a compelling story based on these themes. This got me interested, so I went to check out the game to see how bad it was, and if it would be suitable for Debian. I'll give facts first, then my (perhaps not so relevant) opinion. I am Dutch, and understand German, so that was no barrier. Thank you for actually going out and having done that. I appreciate your honest effort to give a third-party evaluation. Many people critical of something do not ever do that. First of all, I didn't finish the game, and certainly didn't examine all possible paths; I only played it a bit to see what it was like. I think I got a good idea, but the ending may seriously alter some things I'm saying. Then again, I didn't stop playing for writing this post; I stopped because I couldn't handle it anymore. I think you'll understand after reading the rest of this post. This is relevant, because it means that even if the ending fixes some things, it will not be seen by all players. This actually does surprise me – lots of people I know have played the game and the most common reason to stop playing was that it was “too much text”, implying those people just don't like visual novels. But then they all happen to be male and female 20-somethings who are comfortable with contemporary imageboard culture. I am going to start with trying to package Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach - a visual novel set in present-day bavaria containing (optional) erotic content The erotic content is not optional, AFAICS. Only the abuse is optional. The first time you get to a point where you can see it, you have to click a button that says I'm mentally ill and want to see this. Given that these are (drawn) images of child abuse, I think they are actually criminal to possess in many countries (including mine, the Netherlands, so I have already deleted the game). I'm pretty sure we cannot distribute them in Debian, not even in non-free. So for the rest of the post, I'm assuming that those images are not in the game. As far as I understand it, in Germany, for a text / recording / drawing to be a criminal matter, it must depict actual abuse – meaning a child has to be abused for the document to be created. Off-topic: Does this mean that the stereotypical hentai comics that commonly depict rape, child abuse, dismemberment etc. are not legal to posess in NL as well? Quote: http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2013-06/kinderpornographie Demgegenüber sah sie bei kinderpornografischen Romanen, Zeichnungen und Zeichentrickfilmen den Strafgrund der Regelung nicht als erfüllt an, weil deren Besitz nicht dazu beitrage, dass Kinder als Darsteller bei pornographischen Aufnahmen missbraucht würden. As the plot does not rely on the shock value of abuse images, I do understand completely that you find it disturbing even without them. Seriously, I have visited the site of the game and from one of the screenshots (with the small girl with horns) it seems like the game has something to do with child sexualization. I am not fluent in German, but the text there seems to also suggest so. It would be best to disable the contentious content in Unteralterbach as without it the game is playable (as You stated) and hopefully quite fine. Your impression that it has something to do with child sexualization is a formidable understatement. That's what the entire game is all about. The protagonist starts working for the police department going after child pornography producers. These producers turn out to be
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
2014-03-10 14:48 GMT+01:00 Nils Dagsson Moskopp n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net: Miriam Ruiz mir...@debian.org writes: in the web page, and reading the comments in previous mails. I find your description of the game very disturbing, and I'm thinking that it may be even be triggering for some people. I would like to avoid that problem by clearly labeling the game package, similar to how fortunes-off is labeled (Please do not install this package if you or your users are offended by depictions of [...]). Yup, we'd certainly do that in the description of the package. It is important that anyone has a clear idea of what it is before installing any package. I remember having read a page about a more formalized game labeling effort of the Debian Games Team, but I could not find the web page. It's something I have been looking into for a while, but it hasn't been implemented up to a usable level for the moment, and I have never been sure if there was demand for it, or if it was just a crazy idea of mine: https://wiki.debian.org/OpenRating Having read your report, even if someone decided to package it, I wouldn't advise to include it in the archive without speaking beforehand with lawyers that could advice us on the possible risks. I'm not familiar enought with the law in different countries to know what's allowed or not, but from your analysis I fear that by distributing it we might be puting in risk the administrators of some of our mirrors, and I'd like to be sure that's not the case. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to make something that it's not illegal in at least one country in the world. For example, I would be a strong supporter of having LGBT-themed games in the archives, and they might not be legal in Russia. I agree and consider it a bad thing if anyone suffers because of this. How are these issues handled currently? I honestly don't know. Probably the DPL might have an idea, or maybe someone in Debian Legal. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAFotxVOTu_O1=Wi4i9ZjZMbYcVW=gnm2am55oscmvjseksf...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
Miriam Ruiz mir...@debian.org writes: 2014-03-10 2:44 GMT+01:00 Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org: For that reason, I would advise not to include this game in Debian (and not to spend your time on packaging it). But note that I'm not setting the rules here. If you feel strongly that it adds value to the system, feel free to explain why, and please also explain why you think that my objections are less important than the contributions. Finally, I'm pleased to see someone here who is interested in packaging visual novels. I like that concept, and would certainly like to see more of them in Debian. Just not this one. Lots of thanks for your efforts analyzing it. I am so looking forward to having visual novels in Debian too. I haven't had time to even test this one (I can understand some German, but I'm not fluent in it, and that means quite an effort and time, as well as not really understanding everything that goes on), apart from seeing the graphics in the web page, and reading the comments in previous mails. I find your description of the game very disturbing, and I'm thinking that it may be even be triggering for some people. I would like to avoid that problem by clearly labeling the game package, similar to how fortunes-off is labeled (“Please do not install this package if you or your users are offended by depictions of […]”). I remember having read a page about a more formalized game labeling effort of the Debian Games Team, but I could not find the web page. Having read your report, even if someone decided to package it, I wouldn't advise to include it in the archive without speaking beforehand with lawyers that could advice us on the possible risks. I'm not familiar enought with the law in different countries to know what's allowed or not, but from your analysis I fear that by distributing it we might be puting in risk the administrators of some of our mirrors, and I'd like to be sure that's not the case. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to make something that it's not illegal in at least one country in the world. For example, I would be a strong supporter of having LGBT-themed games in the archives, and they might not be legal in Russia. I agree and consider it a bad thing if anyone suffers because of this. How are these issues handled currently? -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87txb6rwpn@dieweltistgarnichtso.net
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel
Nils Dagsson Moskopp n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org writes: I am going to start with trying to package Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach - a visual novel set in present-day bavaria containing (optional) erotic content The erotic content is not optional, AFAICS. Only the abuse is optional. The first time you get to a point where you can see it, you have to click a button that says I'm mentally ill and want to see this. Given that these are (drawn) images of child abuse, I think they are actually criminal to possess in many countries (including mine, the Netherlands, so I have already deleted the game). I'm pretty sure we cannot distribute them in Debian, not even in non-free. So for the rest of the post, I'm assuming that those images are not in the game. As far as I understand it, in Germany, for a text / recording / drawing to be a criminal matter, it must depict actual abuse – meaning a child has to be abused for the document to be created. Off-topic: Does this mean that the stereotypical hentai comics that commonly depict rape, child abuse, dismemberment etc. are not legal to posess in NL as well? Quote: http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2013-06/kinderpornographie The US seems to be more strict. A man was convicted in 2010 for sending Hentai comics through the mail. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.175488-Hentai-Collector-Sentenced-to-Jail-Over-Obscene-Material Cheers, Walter Landry wlan...@caltech.edu
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
Hi there, On 10/03/14 at 14:57 +0100, Miriam Ruiz wrote: Having read your report, even if someone decided to package it, I wouldn't advise to include it in the archive without speaking beforehand with lawyers that could advice us on the possible risks. I'm not familiar enought with the law in different countries to know what's allowed or not, but from your analysis I fear that by distributing it we might be puting in risk the administrators of some of our mirrors, and I'd like to be sure that's not the case. On the other hand, it's almost impossible to make something that it's not illegal in at least one country in the world. For example, I would be a strong supporter of having LGBT-themed games in the archives, and they might not be legal in Russia. I agree and consider it a bad thing if anyone suffers because of this. How are these issues handled currently? I honestly don't know. Probably the DPL might have an idea, or maybe someone in Debian Legal. We could consult our legal support at SFLC about this. That's what we did for the ongoing work on packaging a library required to play many DVDs. However, there are really both moral and legal sides in this discussion. Even if it was OK to accept such a package from the legal side, Debian (ftpmasters) could still decide that it would not be OK, on moral grounds, to accept such a package in Debian. So I'd rather wait until ftpmasters say that it's useful to bring SFLC in the loop before doing so. Lucas signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel
Hi, IANAL, but this discussion has got me wondering were we should draw the line. Summary: in my opinion, if you intend on uploading a package which as fair chances of being classified as pornography *somewhere*, please don't. Argumentation follows (Nils, obviously I'm not meaning you by you): Le 10/03/2014 16:29, Walter Landry a écrit : Nils Dagsson Moskopp n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: Bas Wijnen wij...@debian.org writes: I am going to start with trying to package Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach - a visual novel set in present-day bavaria containing (optional) erotic content The erotic content is not optional, AFAICS. Only the abuse is optional. As far as I understand it, in Germany, for a text / recording / drawing to be a criminal matter, it must depict actual abuse – meaning a child has to be abused for the document to be created. Off-topic: Does this mean that the stereotypical hentai comics that commonly depict rape, child abuse, dismemberment etc. are not legal to posess in NL as well? Quote: http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2013-06/kinderpornographie The US seems to be more strict. A man was convicted in 2010 for sending Hentai comics through the mail. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.175488-Hentai-Collector-Sentenced-to-Jail-Over-Obscene-Material [1]French Law is pretty strict on the matter too: Le fait, en vue de sa diffusion, de fixer, d'enregistrer ou de transmettre l'image ou la représentation d'un mineur lorsque cette image ou cette représentation présente un caractère pornographique est puni de cinq ans d'emprisonnement et de 75 000 euros d'amende. The law speaks of representation, meaning drawings are (presumably) covered as well. I'm saying presumably because I haven't looked for actual examples of application of this law to drawings, but the text is pretty clear. If the image depicts a child younger than 15, it's even illegal to draw it, even if nobody else than you ever sees it. Of course, distributing such images is as illegal as producing them. Interesting detail, the jail sentence and the fine are worse if you use the Internet to distribute the material. Paedophilia prevention laws aside, if we started shipping any material that could be *considered* pornographic in any jurisdiction, we would have to take technical measures to prevent minors from accessing our archive, or we would put ourselves, our mirrors and our users at risk of prosecution for failing to protect minors from pornography. I'm almost certain that pornography itself or at least pornography importation is illegal in many countries, for very wide definitions of pornography. For instance it is [2]prohibited to import indecent or obscene articles in the United Kingdom. I leave it to your interpretation whether a Debian mirror would be performing such importation if we had this game in the archive. Or someone casually walking through the GB customs with a set of Debian DVDs in his luggage. I think it is pretty obvious that we should not open that can of worms. Kind regards, Thibaut. [1]http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticle=LEGIARTI06418095cidTexte=LEGITEXT06070719 [2]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/39-40/36/contents signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel
Thibaut Paumard wrote... IANAL, but this discussion has got me wondering were we should draw the line. Summary: in my opinion, if you intend on uploading a package which as fair chances of being classified as pornography *somewhere*, please don't. Argumentation follows (Nils, obviously I'm not meaning you by you): There was a discussion about hotbabe some years ago ... Globally thinking, since there's a wide span of what pornography contitutes, I was careful with your approach. Some corners in the world might consider that term applies to bible-kjv-text. It has some parts they carefully avoided in sunday school. Christoph -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1394479...@msgid.manchmal.in-ulm.de
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 08:31:24PM +0100, Christoph Biedl wrote: Thibaut Paumard wrote... IANAL, but this discussion has got me wondering were we should draw the line. Summary: in my opinion, if you intend on uploading a package which as fair chances of being classified as pornography *somewhere*, please don't. Argumentation follows (Nils, obviously I'm not meaning you by you): There was a discussion about hotbabe some years ago ... (not speaking as ftpteam, we've not considered this yet, and the decision will come from an ftp-master, not a lowly minion such as myself) Be careful here; in most Jurisdictions child porn is treated very differently then normal porn (and rightly so). That is, if you consider this porn (I've not seen this game yet, I'll have to grab some facts about it before I voice an opinion on that) - but from what I read so far, it's not looking great - this is *not* the same as hotbabe, this pushes a lot more laws. Globally thinking, since there's a wide span of what pornography contitutes, I was careful with your approach. Some corners in the world might consider that term applies to bible-kjv-text. It has some parts they carefully avoided in sunday school. Christoph Sure; but the question of intent is valid -- is the intent to 'excite' the consumer or is it a work on it's own? Usually there's some test like that in most places; but I've not researched this at all. Cheers, Paul -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org | Proud Debian Developer : :' : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~paultag `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel
Paul Tagliamonte wrote... On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 08:31:24PM +0100, Christoph Biedl wrote: Thibaut Paumard wrote... IANAL, but this discussion has got me wondering were we should draw the line. Summary: in my opinion, if you intend on uploading a package which as fair chances of being classified as pornography *somewhere*, please don't. Argumentation follows (Nils, obviously I'm not meaning you by you): There was a discussion about hotbabe some years ago ... Be careful here; in most Jurisdictions child porn is treated very differently then normal porn (and rightly so). Agreed. It was Thibaut who skipped the child word above and I understood this was by intention. Perhaps he hat something different in mind. Christoph -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1394482...@msgid.manchmal.in-ulm.de
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 W dniu 10.03.2014 20:31, Christoph Biedl pisze: Thibaut Paumard wrote... IANAL, but this discussion has got me wondering were we should draw the line. Summary: in my opinion, if you intend on uploading a package which as fair chances of being classified as pornography *somewhere*, please don't. Argumentation follows (Nils, obviously I'm not meaning you by you): There was a discussion about hotbabe some years ago ... Globally thinking, since there's a wide span of what pornography contitutes, I was careful with your approach. Some corners in the world might consider that term applies to bible-kjv-text. It has some parts they carefully avoided in sunday school. Christoph Seriously, if this will get to Debian, it might be a huge PR disaster. - -- Pozdrawiam, Mateusz Jończyk AEI, Informatyka, Semestr 2 Magisterskich, BDiIS -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: My public key: 0x2C64C488 on hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTHh1gAAoJELLT9LcsZMSIoCUH/3/PVbKtOk+bjDXvpAVnZEAv 3+T0fdSHCg0kISvOYzw5x3kT9E5QKN7Z6ZBLswFb51k990OL9W9vB6DGsaAugLOu YTiwvCx/LzD5LOPimwzCPS5Os5RLOXYLFB37faYDvSG/KRZMCB1Hrf7IfTQQSw1s yK/fdvqMJ80V5zIdHZwEQcefMJFxtbJpMQDe15o+ORJkje2GpZ4Uy/8SelJx2L+O 4LowX62RePLRX9rjf89tmhESKNe9RATEvcQ4dR3s6LXBc3m/c3zc67lMquvBrawK xZcWTPnJCrEq+7wgwxzZSNJ+VDb3SXgnuy62XW0JEctg4R1SQCz5MylIuP+PBE4= =ThXx -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531e1d65.4050...@o2.pl
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 09:39:07PM +0100, Nils Dagsson Moskopp wrote: If the player is considered a pedophile, there are opportunities for abuse at every corner. Similar to other games, where you have a gun. The only game I know that challenges that is Aquaria. After acquiring the skill to throw energy balls, most players shoot everything they can see. This triggers a monologue from the – usually silent – protagonist about how powerful she feels when killing weaker creatures. Ouch. Again, not ftpteam, just my opinion: I don't believe this is an entirely fair comparison. Most games where you kill people it's done in a way that keeps your player as 'ethical', which is not to say you follow the geneva conventions (perhaps someone out there can patch a WWII game for this? :) ), but you're on the ethical 'high ground'. Mostly. Not all of it, but mostly. Most games where you are unethical and killing a non-hostile force are often condemmed -- or even banned! One such game was Postal 2. Postal 2 is a game where you don't have to, but can, shoot innocent people. You can play through without shooting a single person, but it's very hard. It goes so far as to give you such weapons as an 'anthrax filled cow head'. It's intentionally provocitive -- you can play as the taliban, priests, midgets or any other group that was open to mockery at the time. As a result, it was banned in NZ and elsewhere in the world. I think shooting games where you are fighting some force for ethical good is more similar to pornography then child porn - I'd say games like Postal 2, where you can kill innocent people for fun to be more similar to that. Again, I have not played this game, so I pass no judgement on anything as of yet. Cheers, Paul -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org | Proud Debian Developer : :' : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~paultag `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel
Hi, Le 10/03/2014 21:12, Christoph Biedl a écrit : Paul Tagliamonte wrote... On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 08:31:24PM +0100, Christoph Biedl wrote: Thibaut Paumard wrote... IANAL, but this discussion has got me wondering were we should draw the line. Summary: in my opinion, if you intend on uploading a package which as fair chances of being classified as pornography *somewhere*, please don't. Argumentation follows (Nils, obviously I'm not meaning you by you): There was a discussion about hotbabe some years ago ... Be careful here; in most Jurisdictions child porn is treated very differently then normal porn (and rightly so). Agreed too. Agreed. It was Thibaut who skipped the child word above and I understood this was by intention. Perhaps he hat something different in mind. Yes, it was intentional. The FTP masters are of course the ones to decide, but for the reasons I expressed later in my mail, I think even legal (in most countries) pornography would put the distribution in a difficult position. I acknowledge I have no idea in how many countries this particular package would be problematic once expunged from the child abuse graphic content. Kind regards, Thibaut. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
Your impression that it has something to do with child sexualization is a formidable understatement. That's what the entire game is all about. The protagonist starts working for the police department going after child pornography producers. These producers turn out to be the children themselves, who use magic to make adults cooperate. Some remarkable features: At least in the US, this content is beyond offensive. It is legally considered obscenity: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130505/14372422951/court-finds-fantasy-stories-obscene.shtml It would likely start a media firestorm resulting in child advocacy groups pressuring Debian's corporate sponsors to cut off funding. They would likely do so. This is the worst kind of PR you can get. No school would ever be able to use Debian or a derivative again, etc. I personally would never use Debian again. Run, do not walk, away from this. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531e8574.6030...@speakeasy.net
