Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
On 11/03/2014, Joseph Neal vlvtel...@speakeasy.net wrote: I hate to stir up shit, but that's exactly what I'm doing. If you hate to do it, then please don't do it. Several people have already objected but I hope there will be such a resounding rejection that nobody considers submitting something like this again in the future. I am not a member of the Debian Project. It is my hope that enough people who do speak for the project will respond to this with hell no that there is never any ambiguity regarding the inclusion of this type of content again. https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00017.html In that thread, the relevance of Stan Cohen's concept of moral panics has already been noted.[0] There is a danger, if the Debian project falls prey to a moral panic, that it will self-censor to the extent of producing a chilling effect upon itself. If the decision is taken to censor or ban Unteralterbach from Debian, in a manner that - as you say you hope for - would affect future decisions about the exclusion of other works, I hope this occurs in a way that *would* still allow other works within Debian to deal with the topic - albeit more sensitively. I have not played Unteralterbach and therefore do not feel entitled to voice an opinion about the inclusion of that particular work, but I think history and erudite opinion has vindicated works like Chris Morris's Brass Eye: Paedophilia Special[1], Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita[2], and Harry Thompson and Shaun Pye's Monkey Dust[3] as having important satirical, artistic and cultural merit. Were anyone to suggest packaging works equivalent to those three in Debian[4], I hope Debian's response would be an enthusiastic Yes! I note your comment and reference to the decision of a Bible Belt judge to declare a possibly similar work obscene as a result of substituting his own views for the testimony of an expert witness.[5] However, as Miriam Ruiz has pointed out, we should be wary of taking a lowest common denominator approach to local law, as that would also result in deeply unacceptable censorship.[6] I would also note that the canon of literature that has been considered obscene enough to warrant attempted prosecution in Western democracies is large and in part noble (Howl, Lady Chatterley's Lover, and many others).[7] Regards, Sam [0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00019.html [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_Eye#Paedophilia_special_.282001.29 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_Dust [4] Equivalent could mean free media that use similar themes and tropes; or could mean e.g. a copy of Nabokov's text or transcripts of the other two, if such became freely available as a result of changes in copyright status; etc. [5] https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00035.html [6] https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00018.html [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Obscenity_controversies -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cad-jur+pdxvjrykgmhqlht8gz2twh5hctrgtmig1go+apmt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 W dniu 11.03.2014 15:52, Sam Kuper pisze: On 11/03/2014, Joseph Neal vlvtel...@speakeasy.net wrote: I hate to stir up shit, but that's exactly what I'm doing. If you hate to do it, then please don't do it. Several people have already objected but I hope there will be such a resounding rejection that nobody considers submitting something like this again in the future. I am not a member of the Debian Project. It is my hope that enough people who do speak for the project will respond to this with hell no that there is never any ambiguity regarding the inclusion of this type of content again. https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00017.html In that thread, the relevance of Stan Cohen's concept of moral panics has already been noted.[0] There is a danger, if the Debian project falls prey to a moral panic, that it will self-censor to the extent of producing a chilling effect upon itself. This is not a moral panic. A real harm is being done. According to statistics [2] One in 20 children (4.8%) have experienced contact sexual abuse. This has probably a devastating effect on their lives. If the decision is taken to censor or ban Unteralterbach from Debian, in a manner that - as you say you hope for - would affect future decisions about the exclusion of other works, I hope this occurs in a way that *would* still allow other works within Debian to deal with the topic - albeit more sensitively. According to the Debian Policy Manual [1]: We reserve the right to restrict files from being included anywhere in our archives if their use or distribution would break a law, there is an ethical conflict in their distribution or use, [...] A sane person tries to judge morally their actions, which often includes predicting their consequences. It has been mentioned here already and I find it likely that the game may trigger some people sick of paedophilia and more harm may be done. Not everything that can be told should be told. You would probably agree that child porn (movies, images) should be banned. I have not played Unteralterbach and therefore do not feel entitled to voice an opinion about the inclusion of that particular work, but I think history and erudite opinion has vindicated works like Chris Morris's Brass Eye: Paedophilia Special[1], Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita[2], and Harry Thompson and Shaun Pye's Monkey Dust[3] as having important satirical, artistic and cultural merit. Were anyone to suggest packaging works equivalent to those three in Debian[4], I hope Debian's response would be an enthusiastic Yes! Please don't use such a language on the mailing list. It is not a marketing campaign. I note your comment and reference to the decision of a Bible Belt judge to declare a possibly similar work obscene as a result of substituting his own views for the testimony of an expert witness.[5] However, as Miriam Ruiz has pointed out, we should be wary of taking a lowest common denominator approach to local law, as that would also result in deeply unacceptable censorship.[6] I would also note that the canon of literature that has been considered obscene enough to warrant attempted prosecution in Western democracies is large and in part noble (Howl, Lady Chatterley's Lover, and many others).[7] As has been mentioned previously [3], including this will have a devastating effect on Debian. Unfortunately we don't have debian-children so that we may forward it to that list. Regards, Sam Please send everything to debian-devel-games so that the thread will be easy to follow. Some posts can already be found on other mailing lists only. [1] http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-pkgcopyright [2] http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexualabuse/statistics_wda87833.html [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00035.html - -- Pozdrawiam, Mateusz Jończyk AEI, Informatyka, Semestr 2 Magisterskich, BDiIS -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: My public key: 0x2C64C488 on hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJTHzwxAAoJELLT9LcsZMSI9KkIAKfB/SGVl6v4GVTLz90RRlsg YDNpFlr47Xa713BAZeDoyV5TZUVeZAoyAlc9+i5v6Gl/hzJFhg2AW3NBfQrSvNUa RbG1IbIOL8+FJvH++rXfoL01p7ILFD3x+P5lDm7+on3P9mL6v5vJj8dOnqC60Owc RtqeQD0w23bjAksslGdgw9YSoiYe1FikANPgaHjRXnmUmNWyIKfwllXpdRYQ7J2y aHjiYozDEpC5+fwaQiKU7lxNKHp7t1YDIflUnsz01XYJ0CxKbGSUqlTjqN/WNyFG bnxzFXD0eXB5zKIHRQ/ZjE31fMDzSCs70vZUd8v0Bcgdruf+GNzoWZMyxOJ1iyI= =Ra4a -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531f3c32.8000...@o2.pl
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
2014-03-11 17:39 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Jończyk mat.jonc...@o2.pl: There is a danger, if the Debian project falls prey to a moral panic, that it will self-censor to the extent of producing a chilling effect upon itself. This is not a moral panic. A real harm is being done. According to statistics [2] One in 20 children (4.8%) have experienced contact sexual abuse. This has probably a devastating effect on their lives. We should probably make an effort to keep this discussion civil, not only to set an example for other flames in the whole project, but also because this is the kind of discussion that can easily get out of hands. Right now there is no need to make any decision at all, it is in the hands of the FTP Masters, and we as a project trust them. Please, before giving any opinion, one way or the other, I'd suggest to be as calm as possible and re-read twice. We don't want to start a flame, and we don't want the noise. A sane person tries to judge morally their actions, which often includes predicting their consequences. It has been mentioned here already and I find it likely that the game may trigger some people sick of paedophilia and more harm may be done. Whenever I have used the word triggering in my mails, has been right for the opposite reason. I meant triggering the victims. We certainly don't want to cause any emotional breakdown to anyone, so I suggest we treat this topic calmly and as non-emotional as possible. When I mean triggering the victims, I mean triggering PSTD [1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder I honestly don't think that the game can make anyone behave in a way they wouldn't if they haven't played. The same way that violent people are not so because they play violent games. I haven't played the game myself, and I probably couldn't even if I had curiosioty enough to try, but most than anything, in that regards, I would be concerned about whether there is an implicit or explicit apology of stuff. That would certainly be illegal almost everywhere and, most of all, none of us would want it in Debian. To make it clear once and again, what I'm concerned about is the victims. As has been mentioned previously [3], including this will have a devastating effect on Debian. Unfortunately we don't have debian-children so that we may forward it to that list. This should probably belong more to debian-parents. Having a debian-children group has been among my TODO ideas for the future, but even if it currently existed, they would be the last I would want to forward this to. Hugs, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAFotxVNG-kO_9h-JkT9+bMaVBVSC9ugxNixS_9UNkPGZwTX=m...@mail.gmail.com
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
On 11/03/2014, Mateusz Jończyk mat.jonc...@o2.pl wrote: W dniu 11.03.2014 15:52, Sam Kuper pisze: On 11/03/2014, Joseph Neal vlvtel...@speakeasy.net wrote: According to statistics [2] One in 20 children (4.8%) have experienced contact sexual abuse. This has probably a devastating effect on their lives. That is very likely true, and tragic, but I don't see what it has to do with the present discussion. This is not a moral panic. A real harm is being done. There is a difference between abuse and discussions of it. The former is a harm; the latter, not necessarily. I am defending non-harmful literary discussions of abuse - and I gave three prominent creative examples published by major corporations and available from major retailers. I have no wish to defend actual abuse; quite the contrary. My point was that if legal (in some jurisdictions) and literary discussions of abuse are completely excluded from Debian, then an act of censorship has been performed, which may itself be viewed as a real - though different - harm. According to the Debian Policy Manual [1]: We reserve the right to restrict files from being included anywhere in our archives if their use or distribution would break a law, there is an ethical conflict in their distribution or use, [...] Yes, and that - a reserved right to restrict - is fair enough. Without that, Debian would have to include absolutely everything submitted! Joseph Neal called for something much stronger: such a resounding rejection that nobody considers submitting something like this again in the future, without specifying how broadly something like this should be interpreted. Would it include Nabokov? D. H. Lawrence? Ginsberg? A sane person tries to judge morally their actions, which often includes predicting their consequences. It has been mentioned here already and I find it likely that the game may trigger some people sick of paedophilia and more harm may be done. You're using trigger here in a way that's unclear to me. However, your underlying point is that you find it likely that the inclusion of Unteralterbach in Debian would cause more harm to be done. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not, but you haven't supported your conclusion with any evidence. Not everything that can be told should be told. You would probably agree that child porn (movies, images) should be banned. I agree that actual abuse should be banned; as should the intentional creation or exploitation of recordings of actual abuse. As has been mentioned previously [3], including this will have a devastating effect on Debian. Assuming that by this you mean specifically Unteralterbach: (1) I personally haven't called for its inclusion (or its exclusion). (2) It's far from certain whether its inclusion would devastate Debian; this might well depend upon how it was packaged. Please send everything to debian-devel-games so that the thread will be easy to follow. Done. [1] http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-pkgcopyright [2] http://www.nspcc.org.uk/Inform/resourcesforprofessionals/sexualabuse/statistics_wda87833.html [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2014/03/msg00035.html Regards, Sam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cad-jurjwrvf6mcz2m2ioojuousgky-jpqca6sevp1o3g4s+...@mail.gmail.com
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
Am 11.03.2014 17:54, schrieb Miriam Ruiz: Right now there is no need to make any decision at all, it is in the hands of the FTP Masters, and we as a project trust them. As far as I am aware there is not even the need for the FTP masters to decide because there is no Debian developer who is considering to package or sponsor the game. (Or is there?) There was just someone who is not a Debian developer or maintainer and who has not contributed to the Games Team before who asked on debian-devel-games if this game can be included. By being somewhat well-spoken and not mentioning child abuse in the beginning he got the discussion going. But as long as there is no Debian developer who considers uploading something like that I really don't know why to continue the discussion. Cheers, Tobias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531f5896.9050...@debian.org
Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
Bas Wijnen writes (Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)): Summary: I've tried the game, and don't think it's suitable for Debian. Thank you for your analysis. I appreciate your effort, and your taking the psychological risk of exposure to something unpleasant and disturbing. Based on what you have said I would say that this game should not be in Debian. That doesn't amount to censorship. People who want to find interesting interactive fiction are probably not going to be looking for it in our archive. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21279.25432.949265.700...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
2014-03-11 19:40 GMT+01:00 Tobias Hansen than...@debian.org: Am 11.03.2014 17:54, schrieb Miriam Ruiz: Right now there is no need to make any decision at all, it is in the hands of the FTP Masters, and we as a project trust them. As far as I am aware there is not even the need for the FTP masters to decide because there is no Debian developer who is considering to package or sponsor the game. (Or is there?) There was just someone who is not a Debian developer or maintainer and who has not contributed to the Games Team before who asked on debian-devel-games if this game can be included. By being somewhat well-spoken and not mentioning child abuse in the beginning he got the discussion going. But as long as there is no Debian developer who considers uploading something like that I really don't know why to continue the discussion. There is certainly no need of, at the moment, but I was referring to Paul's words: I can think of a few people who'd likely support it's inclusion, but this isn't the mainstream viewpoint. There's an ftpteam meeting about this coming up, and there'll be an 'official' response. I haven't played the game myself, and I quite likely won't, so I don't have a personal opinion. All I know is that different people have different points of view about what the games contains. I guess that most of us are building our opinion on other's, thus being a 2nd or 3rd hand opinion. i honestly don't know how the game is like, whether it is legal or not in some countries or others, or if it would be removing some scenes. There is a great difference in one case and the other. Even before all the discussion started, when I noticed that it would be a controversial game I asked both the DPL and the FTP Masters to know their position. Just for the record, it is quite likely that at some point or other there will be some kind of games for adults proposed, probably not as this one, according to what has been said about it, but for adults nonetheless. It will be a good thing to know in advance what to do about that. It would be a waste of time to go through all the process of packaging the game to jave it rejected for social or moral reasons in the end. Legal reasons are a different thing. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAFotxVOnBk+HMtK49evy_MaVGmX0H34c=yki3q0bnrybdhq...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Unteralterbach visual novel (was: Re: Introduction)
2014-03-11 20:26 GMT+01:00 Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk: in Debian. That doesn't amount to censorship. People who want to find interesting interactive fiction are probably not going to be looking for it in our archive. You mean that we shouldn't package any interactive fiction game of any kind, or were you referring just to this one? Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cafotxvpodwubfhjgyjuqkr2rc9ybsfppytqckhf3torcvcx...@mail.gmail.com
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
Le 11/03/2014 20:10, Sam Kuper a écrit : My point was that if legal (in some jurisdictions) and literary discussions of abuse are completely excluded from Debian, then an act of censorship has been performed, which may itself be viewed as a real - though different - harm. No. Deciding to not include a copy of some literary discussion in a GNU/Linux distribution is by no means censorship. Please keep in mind what the Debian project is about. Regards. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
On 11/03/2014, Thibaut Paumard thib...@debian.org wrote: Le 11/03/2014 20:10, Sam Kuper a écrit : My point was that if legal (in some jurisdictions) and literary discussions of abuse are completely excluded from Debian, then an act of censorship has been performed, which may itself be viewed as a real - though different - harm. No. Yes. Deciding to not include a copy of some literary discussion in a GNU/Linux distribution is by no means censorship. Please keep in mind what the Debian project is about. About this, I agree with you. That's because there's a big difference between: (A) 'Deciding to not include a copy of some literary discussion in a GNU/Linux distribution' (this can be fair enough, as I said earlier); and (b) deciding 'legal and literary discussions of abuse are completely excluded from Debian' (which would prevent Debian from ever distributing some valued works of the Western cultural canon, not on the basis of their being software or not, but on the basis of their literary content - a form of censorship). Like you, I'm in favour (A), applied sensibly; and I'm not in favour of (B). I responded to Joseph Neal's earlier email to the list because he's apparently of the opposite opinion: in favour of (B) or something like it; and by implication possibly opposed to (A). Regards, Sam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cad-jur+i1a2nz1vhytsj7i52lu_ccx0d0jo7evf0gpy5ieb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
On 11/03/2014, Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.com.au wrote: Many people wouldn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. The consequences of even showing sympathy for this type of package could well have personal consequences for some people well into the future, here is a typical example: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26502420 Yes, you could end up a knighted Lord Justice and adviser to the Queen; or a cabinet minister. Or I suppose the Paedofinder General might get you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCywGhHQMEw . But he'd probably get you anyway, whatever your views about anything. Now that this conversation has descended into farce, I'm out. I only hope that if the issue does cease to become moot[1] and Debian decides to reject Unteralterbach (which, to repeat, I have no opinion about) the project will not do so in a way that would prevent balanced discussion of *other* works. Regards, Sam [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2014/03/msg00076.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAD-JurKAjFWpz1zhAusd5FSif+uNodu4WNn-zRC=2ebtvzb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: clarify FTP master delegation?
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 07:19:18PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: That means that it is for the FTP team to set that policy. AFAIAA this is the best description of the FTP team policy: https://ftp-master.debian.org/REJECT-FAQ.html My impression is that the type of issue currently under discussion is not adequately specified in the FTP master delegation, it leaves the FTP masters to do more work on something that is actually quite complicated and has far-reaching ramifications for the project. It also means the FTP masters are in a situation where whatever they do, some people will feel they either did the wrong thing or some people will feel the FTP masters were wrong to make any decision without the project having a policy on the matter. I am very happy that the FTP team are making these kind of decisions for the project. I definitely don't want the DPL to intervene (for example, by making the FTP team delegation more prescriptive). The absence of policy on this also has other ramifications: for example, a DD could upload a non-controversial v1.0 of a package, receive FTP master approval and then later v2.0 comes along with controversial content and according to the wiki, it will be automatically accepted. This is surely done for convenience, not as a matter of policy. If you are aware of an instance where a package which has already gone through NEW has been replaced by a new version which the FTP team would have rejected, you should surely bring this to the FTP team's attention (probably by filing a bug). Debian is extremely careful _not_ to censor arbitrarily, though I can remember a couple of discussions of similar issues. From memory only - One was a very long time ago - could be as long ago as 15 years ago - when the lists were spammed by a Finnish neo-Nazi/white supremacist. At the time, thre were lengthy discussions about removing the content - various peole arguing against rewriting history and removing content from the mailing lists - but one of the prime considerations was that the content amounted to illegality in France/Germany/Austria amongst others. Given the UK's current laws - and, not least, the fact that my German isn't good - I'm not going to go anywhere near the content discussed in the discussions around a hypothetical prospective package and so can't comment further on the realities of the issues in the particular case. We do have to be careful that, as a project, we don't expose people to the possibiltiy of legal action because X is fine in Elbonia (but illegal in Ruritania and the territories of the Voivodship of Servia) for example. The great thing about Debian is that, as a community, we are accepting of everyone interested, willing and able to contribute - religion, gender, race, sexuality, financial status are all, pretty much irrelevant: in practice, the main limitation we place is that applicants must, effectively, have a high standard of communication in technical English and the ability to collaborate. All the best, AndyC amaca...@galactic.dmeon.co.uk / amaca...@debian.org Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21279.25014.252749.830...@chiark.greenend.org.uk signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
On 11/03/14 22:23, Sam Kuper wrote: On 11/03/2014, Daniel Pocock dan...@pocock.com.au wrote: Many people wouldn't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. The consequences of even showing sympathy for this type of package could well have personal consequences for some people well into the future, here is a typical example: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26502420 Yes, you could end up a knighted Lord Justice and adviser to the Queen; or a cabinet minister. Or you could easily extrapolate to our own context: for example, an IT or software company employing DDs wins a major contract to supply a Debian-based solution to schools or health care or social services. How long do you think it will take tabloid newspapers in a place like the UK to seize on a connection to something as inappropriate as this game? If anything, one of the vendors who missed out on the contract would be sending clues about it to the press just to make sure they couldn't miss it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531f863c.2020...@pocock.com.au
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
2014-03-11 22:23 GMT+01:00 Sam Kuper sam.ku...@uclmail.net: Now that this conversation has descended into farce, I'm out. I only hope that if the issue does cease to become moot[1] and Debian decides to reject Unteralterbach (which, to repeat, I have no opinion about) the project will not do so in a way that would prevent balanced discussion of *other* works. The most important reason that has to weight, in my opinion, is whether is legally safe for debian and for the administrators of the mirrors (that want to distribute it). That's the reason why I CC'ed Debian Legal since the beginning I honestly believe that almost none of those of us discusing the game has even tried it (I haven't at least) and I don't think anyone who hasn't even tested it can have a solid opinion. As far as I understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on Bas' analysis. I would suggest everyone not to waste their energies discussing morals about this, or whether freedom of speech or morals should have a higher weight. I don't think that's the point. The latest reports I've read from the FTP masters were clear and their arguments well exposed, and I'm sure that would be the case here. If someone don't agree with whatever they decide, there are also ways to appeal the decision. After all that has been said, I don't really expect any DD to be brave enough to try to upload this game unless it's pretty clear that we have a mislead idea about what the game is about, Even if the game wasn't what it seems to be, someone has to be very brave or crazy to be able to face the attacks that would certanily follow, which are quite likely to turn into nasty personal attacks at some point, as has been already suggested here. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cafotxvnzygyvp-8resa7eduskks27qcsruqqb-4r-4jxpp4...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
I honestly believe that almost none of those of us discusing the game has even tried it (I haven't at least) and I don't think anyone who hasn't even tested it can have a solid opinion. As far as I understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on Bas' analysis. Let's be very, very, very clear then. This is a game where you play a paedophile. The aim is to rape local little girls, whilst evading the authorities. Success is rewarded with graphic scenes of sex with children, failure with being thrown in prison. The sex content is only optional in the sense that you can out yourself to the authorities and get thrown in jail rather than continue with the actual game content. Where game content consists of a few hundred drawn images of graphic sex acts with children. The script unrpa.py can be used to extract all the assets from the .rpa files in the upstream-distributed game. We're not talking about some great moral position on artistic integrity here. There are interesting visual novels made with Ren'Py worth considering for Debian. But I don't think, on any sane planet, Hero Paedo Fucks Kids In German is a game we want in the archive. *Seriously* how is it possible that this bullshit has taken up as much time as it already has? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/531f8f93.5060...@apebox.org
Re: Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
2014-03-11 23:34 GMT+01:00 Jo Shields direct...@apebox.org: I honestly believe that almost none of those of us discusing the game has even tried it (I haven't at least) and I don't think anyone who hasn't even tested it can have a solid opinion. As far as I understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on Bas' analysis. Let's be very, very, very clear then. This is a game where you play a paedophile. The aim is to rape local little girls, whilst evading the authorities. Success is rewarded with graphic scenes of sex with children, failure with being thrown in prison. The sex content is only optional in the sense that you can out yourself to the authorities and get thrown in jail rather than continue with the actual game content. Where game content consists of a few hundred drawn images of graphic sex acts with children. The script unrpa.py can be used to extract all the assets from the .rpa files in the upstream-distributed game. We're not talking about some great moral position on artistic integrity here. There are interesting visual novels made with Ren'Py worth considering for Debian. But I don't think, on any sane planet, Hero Paedo Fucks Kids In German is a game we want in the archive. *Seriously* how is it possible that this bullshit has taken up as much time as it already has? Thanks for the analysis and for the clarity. This description of the game has nothing to do with the original one that I read. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAFotxVPPSuzcsMYRGbVZoQMafqZ=zue7tp-uwezsifikkhh...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
Jo Shields direct...@apebox.org writes: I honestly believe that almost none of those of us discusing the game has even tried it (I haven't at least) and I don't think anyone who hasn't even tested it can have a solid opinion. As far as I understand, we're all defining our position 2nd hand on Bas' analysis. Let's be very, very, very clear then. This is a game where you play a paedophile. The aim is to rape local little girls, whilst evading the authorities. Success is rewarded with graphic scenes of sex with children, failure with being thrown in prison. I think you get the prison ending if a) you botch a dialogue where someone suspects you of a crime you actually have not done or b) the protagonist has sex with a person that does not consent. I know that children are not legally able to consent. I also think it is wrong to enter sexual relationships when there is a strong imbalance of power. However, I think that it is quite consistent that the game distinguishes between statutory rape and rape defined by the victim not consenting. I find it wrong, for example, to have an age of consent of 18 and would certainly not consider it rape, say, a 30-year old and a 17-year old to have sex if both parties are consenting purely on age. I do think the pedophile story path is designed to show how an abuser might think. The sex content is only optional in the sense that you can out yourself to the authorities and get thrown in jail rather than continue with the actual game content. Where game content consists of a few hundred drawn images of graphic sex acts with children. The script unrpa.py can be used to extract all the assets from the .rpa files in the upstream-distributed game. So a game that is being advertised as an erotic visual novel contains sex scenes for every female character – having played quite some visual novels with sex scenes, this is actually a pretty common occurence. What is not a common occurence is that sex scenes are of sexual abuse. To me this is a difference of degree, but I do know quite well why others see a moral transgression. It was already suggested that because most sexual content is illegal in several countries, it would not be included in a game package acceptable for Debian. To me, this means that any outrage about graphic depictions of sexual abuse is misplaced here. Note that to show abuse, you have to knowingly enable the option. The author was careful here – her choice allows an easy separation of the sexual abuse imagery and the story. I think that the game is a decent game without *any* sex scenes. If I understood Bas' review of the game, what disturbed him most was the writing, not the sex scenes – so we seem to agree on that effect. To reiterate: Assume you remove all the sex scenes - what is wrong with Unteralterbach then, legally and morally? Why should it not be packaged? We're not talking about some great moral position on artistic integrity here. There are interesting visual novels made with Ren'Py worth considering for Debian. But I don't think, on any sane planet, Hero Paedo Fucks Kids In German is a game we want in the archive. A major point of the game is that whatever choice you make, the protagonist is neither a hero nor a sympathetic character. I think you can play the whole game without triggering any sex scene and the player character is still a xenophobic socially awkward self-centered asshole. The protagonist is only a hero if you actively choose to ignore all the obvious signs of his descent into madness, the most obvious one being the thought that the demons are out to get him, the *only* sane person. Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I find it quite annoying that people seem to long for a sympathetic protagonist and get mad when a game provides something that unsettles them. It seems there is a wide range of game-space that cannot ever be explored if people insist that games must be shallow and fun to be ever allowed. *Seriously* how is it possible that this bullshit has taken up as much time as it already has? It seems to me that people seem to want to discuss it. Being new to Debian, I find it positively suprising that this discussion did not decay into an orgy of shitposting and ad hominem attacks (yet). -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87iorkw68f@dieweltistgarnichtso.net
Re: FYI: debian-legal is discussing the inclusion in the Debian archive of erotic interactive fiction depicting the sexual abuse of children
Tobias Hansen than...@debian.org writes: Am 11.03.2014 17:54, schrieb Miriam Ruiz: Right now there is no need to make any decision at all, it is in the hands of the FTP Masters, and we as a project trust them. As far as I am aware there is not even the need for the FTP masters to decide because there is no Debian developer who is considering to package or sponsor the game. (Or is there?) I considered packaging the game and have already learned some things about creating a Debian package. I have also filed an ITP bug for my bourne shell implementation of DJB redo – and plan to make a package vastly less controversial, except maybe to defenders of make(1). Since I am new to all of this I do not know how hard it is to find a sponsor. I personally think that person should have played the game and reviewed its assets package (after the legal difficulties are worked out) so he or she is not in error about the game contents. It would certainly be a time-consuming task and not for the easily offended. As I know a number of people who have played Unteralterbach who were more amused than offended, I think the hard part would not be to find a DD who enjoys the game, but to find a someone who would be not afraid to admit that publicly. People expressed fear and I now understand why the original developer did not want to publish the game under her real name. There was just someone who is not a Debian developer or maintainer and who has not contributed to the Games Team before who asked on debian-devel-games if this game can be included. By being somewhat well-spoken and not mentioning child abuse in the beginning he got the discussion going. This is only a minor point, but I think I did mention sexual abuse. It was a major reason why I am anxious about possibly packaging this game. Having seen the – mostly civil – discussion, I have less anxiety. But as long as there is no Debian developer who considers uploading something like that I really don't know why to continue the discussion. Personally, in the case if Debian decides not to admit the game, I will use it to practice packaging Ren'py games and ask upstream if they want to host the deb package so it could be accepted later (if ever) easily. (I apologize for leaving everyone in CC, but this thread now spans several lists – I have no idea where my response belongs right now.) -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87wqg0w3z3@dieweltistgarnichtso.net
