Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-07-01 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le vendredi 29 juin 2007 à 19:50 +0200, Francesco Poli a écrit :
  No. Section #6 only applies to components that link with the original
  or modified versions of the Software. It doesn't apply to derived
  works.
 
 I am afraid I am not following you.
 
 Section 6c of the QPL v1.0 restricts your ability to privately
 distribute components that link with the original or modified versions
 of the Software.
 
 You cannot opt out from this restriction, unless you refrain from
 developing such components.
 The DFSG require that you are able to develop such components, and the
 restriction is non-free.
 
 I cannot see how you can say that the QPL is DFSG-free [...] if you
 don't apply section #6.
 How can you escape from the restrictions set forth in section #6?

By distributing the program as a modification to the Software. It is
completely unpractical and implies distributing it as a set of patches,
but the DFSG allow this.

 | This license is governed by the Laws of Norway. Disputes shall be
 | settled by Oslo City Court.
 
 This is a choice of law *and* a choice of venue.

Sorry, I misread that one. Anyway I still don't think choice of venue to
be a problem for open source licenses, but that's another discussion.

(Oh, and don't misread me: even if by twisting the terms in the best
possible way the license can be seen as free, it is a really crappy
license.)

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-07-01 Thread Francesco Poli
On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 21:36:25 +0200 Josselin Mouette wrote:

 Le vendredi 29 juin 2007 à 19:50 +0200, Francesco Poli a écrit :
[...]
  I cannot see how you can say that the QPL is DFSG-free [...] if you
  don't apply section #6.
  How can you escape from the restrictions set forth in section #6?
 
 By distributing the program as a modification to the Software. It is
 completely unpractical and implies distributing it as a set of
 patches, but the DFSG allow this.

Do you mean distributing a program that links with a QPLed library *as a
patch against the library* under section 3 and 4 of the QPL?
This seems really contorted...

Among other things, clause 3b would kick in and a blanket permission to
dual license the program would be granted to the initial developer of
the library.  But I seem to be in the minority by thinking that clause
3b fails the DFSG:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg01736.html


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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-29 Thread Bruno Costacurta
On Friday 29 June 2007 00:36:43 Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le jeudi 28 juin 2007 à 10:24 +0200, Bruno Costacurta a écrit :
   AFAICS you can use it legally if you port it to GNUTLS.
 
  - the actual code implemented a strong separation layer between OpenSSL
  and Qt (review of code can be made by independent party) thus licenses
  should not be mixed in their interpretations.

 Regardless of the implementation, a resulting binary that requires both
 OpenSSL and Qt to work is considered a derived work from both, and is
 therefore not distributable.

Thanks to all for attention and follow up.
Unfortunately I come to the conclusion that this planned packaging will be 
complicated regarding its licenses duties (porting to GnuTLS...etc..) and so 
decide to abandon the creation of the ITP (Intend To Package).

Regards,
Bruno Costacurta

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-29 Thread Francesco Poli
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 00:34:33 +0200 Josselin Mouette wrote:

 Le mardi 26 juin 2007 à 00:48 +0200, Francesco Poli a écrit :
  On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:06:58 +0200 Josselin Mouette wrote:
   This is a bit more complicated. The QPL is DFSG-free, but only if
   you don't apply section #6
  
  This is equivalent to saying that software solely released under the
  QPL does *not* comply with the DFSG.
 
 No. Section #6 only applies to components that link with the original
 or modified versions of the Software. It doesn't apply to derived
 works.

I am afraid I am not following you.

Section 6c of the QPL v1.0 restricts your ability to privately
distribute components that link with the original or modified versions
of the Software.

You cannot opt out from this restriction, unless you refrain from
developing such components.
The DFSG require that you are able to develop such components, and the
restriction is non-free.

I cannot see how you can say that the QPL is DFSG-free [...] if you
don't apply section #6.
How can you escape from the restrictions set forth in section #6?

 
  When discussing whether a license meets the DFSG, patched versions
  of the license cannot help the unpatched original license to meet
  the DFSG...
 
 I'm not talking about a hypothetical patched license, and you should
 consider reading what people write before replying on a mailing list.

I did read what you wrote, but I apparently misunderstood it.
Sorry about that: in the above, I'm asking you to clarify what you
meant...

 
  And anyway, you there's not only clause 6c: another issue that makes
  the QPL fail to meet the DFSG is the choice of venue.
 
 There is no choice of venue, only choice of law.

AFAICS, we are talking about the QPL v1.0 as adopted by Trolltech AS for
the Qt library.  Is that right?

If this is the case, the license states[1]:

| This license is governed by the Laws of Norway. Disputes shall be
| settled by Oslo City Court.

This is a choice of law *and* a choice of venue.

[1] 
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/q/qt-x11-free/current/copyright



P.S.: I think we should drop Bruno from the Cc: list, as he stated he's
not interested in the ITP anymore.  Bruno, if you are still interested
in this discussion, please speak up and ask to be Cc:ed in the next
messages...


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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-29 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le vendredi 29 juin 2007 à 00:36 +0200, Josselin Mouette a écrit :
 Le jeudi 28 juin 2007 à 10:24 +0200, Bruno Costacurta a écrit :
   AFAICS you can use it legally if you port it to GNUTLS.
 
  - the actual code implemented a strong separation layer between OpenSSL and 
  Qt 
  (review of code can be made by independent party) thus licenses should not 
  be 
  mixed in their interpretations.
 
 Regardless of the implementation, a resulting binary that requires both
 OpenSSL and Qt to work is considered a derived work from both, and is
 therefore not distributable.

Hmm, I forgot what I said earlier about the QPL when writing this. A
work that links with both OpenSSL and Qt *is* distributable, but in this
case section #6 of the QPL applies. I think this is not OK for main, but
it is acceptable for non-free.

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-28 Thread Bruno Costacurta
On Wednesday 27 June 2007 09:51:19 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 6/27/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Gentlemen, thanks a lot for your attention and discussion.
 
  Can we come to a conclusion ?
  Shall I simply abandon at this stage any plan to package this application
  ? Should I continue to prepare and create an ITP (Intend To Package) to
  enter in
  an official package consideration ?

 AFAICS you can use it legally if you port it to GNUTLS.


Hello,
porting to GnuTLS is something we'll avoid.

About the issues mentioned before,  I can answer and propose :

- the actual code implemented a strong separation layer between OpenSSL and Qt 
(review of code can be made by independent party) thus licenses should not be 
mixed in their interpretations.

- current license / copyright might be adapted (meaning 'enforced and 
clarified', not 'relaxed') to answer concerns. 

Best Regards,
Bruno Costacurta

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-28 Thread ajdlinux

On 6/28/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello,
porting to GnuTLS is something we'll avoid.

About the issues mentioned before,  I can answer and propose :

- the actual code implemented a strong separation layer between OpenSSL and
Qt
(review of code can be made by independent party) thus licenses should not
be
mixed in their interpretations.


Well, if the FSF is right in their interpretation, this isn't enough.
As long as a GPL library is linked to anything else, the GPL requires
that the whole lot be GPL. OpenSSL is not GPL compatible.



- current license / copyright might be adapted (meaning 'enforced and
clarified', not 'relaxed') to answer concerns.


What do you mean?

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-28 Thread Bruno Costacurta
On Thursday 28 June 2007 10:28:27 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 6/28/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hello,
  porting to GnuTLS is something we'll avoid.
 
  About the issues mentioned before,  I can answer and propose :
 
  - the actual code implemented a strong separation layer between OpenSSL
  and Qt
  (review of code can be made by independent party) thus licenses should
  not be
  mixed in their interpretations.

 Well, if the FSF is right in their interpretation, this isn't enough.
 As long as a GPL library is linked to anything else, the GPL requires
 that the whole lot be GPL. OpenSSL is not GPL compatible.

  - current license / copyright might be adapted (meaning 'enforced and
  clarified', not 'relaxed') to answer concerns.

 What do you mean?

Well, the project team was thinking about something like 
an 'advertising-special-exception-whatever-clause'.
Something acceptable is a such direction by sirs FSF, GPL and others ? ;-(

Bye,
Bruno


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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-28 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le mardi 26 juin 2007 à 00:48 +0200, Francesco Poli a écrit :
 On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:06:58 +0200 Josselin Mouette wrote:
  This is a bit more complicated. The QPL is DFSG-free, but only if you
  don't apply section #6
 
 This is equivalent to saying that software solely released under the QPL
 does *not* comply with the DFSG.

No. Section #6 only applies to components that link with the original
or modified versions of the Software. It doesn't apply to derived
works.

 When discussing whether a license meets the DFSG, patched versions of
 the license cannot help the unpatched original license to meet the
 DFSG...

I'm not talking about a hypothetical patched license, and you should
consider reading what people write before replying on a mailing list.

 And anyway, you there's not only clause 6c: another issue that makes the
 QPL fail to meet the DFSG is the choice of venue.

There is no choice of venue, only choice of law.

-- 
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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-28 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le jeudi 28 juin 2007 à 10:24 +0200, Bruno Costacurta a écrit :
  AFAICS you can use it legally if you port it to GNUTLS.

 - the actual code implemented a strong separation layer between OpenSSL and 
 Qt 
 (review of code can be made by independent party) thus licenses should not be 
 mixed in their interpretations.

Regardless of the implementation, a resulting binary that requires both
OpenSSL and Qt to work is considered a derived work from both, and is
therefore not distributable.

-- 
 .''`.
: :' :  We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `'   We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
  `-our own. Resistance is futile.


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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-28 Thread ajdlinux

On 6/28/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Well, the project team was thinking about something like
an 'advertising-special-exception-whatever-clause'.
Something acceptable is a such direction by sirs FSF, GPL and others ? ;-(


As Josselin pointed out, anything with Qt and OpenSSL is unusable.

It doesn't matter what you do with your own application's license - it
doesn't even need to be changed for OpenSSL as it's a non-copyleft
revised BSD license. However, you also use Qt, and you can't change
the license or add an exception to Qt. Only Trolltech can, as they're
the copyright holder.

So, you have three choices:
 * Convince the OpenSSL developers to relicense - difficulty: pretty
much impossible
 * Use GNUTLS instead - difficulty: depends on what the app actually does
 * Stop using Qt - which could make the app pointless (if the app was
developed specifically for Qt environments or something) or require a
rewrite of all the GUI code at the least.

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-27 Thread Bruno Costacurta
On Tuesday 26 June 2007 00:48:16 Francesco Poli wrote:
 On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:06:58 +0200 Josselin Mouette wrote:
  Le dimanche 24 juin 2007 à 09:30 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
   The stuff from Trolltech is another matter though - they use the GPL
   and the QPL I believe. If you use it under the GPL, then it can't
   link to OpenSSL, and I believe the QPL is widely considered
   non-free.
 
  This is a bit more complicated. The QPL is DFSG-free, but only if you
  don't apply section #6

 This is equivalent to saying that software solely released under the QPL
 does *not* comply with the DFSG.
 When discussing whether a license meets the DFSG, patched versions of
 the license cannot help the unpatched original license to meet the
 DFSG...

 And anyway, you there's not only clause 6c: another issue that makes the
 QPL fail to meet the DFSG is the choice of venue.

 The thread where these details are discussed starts here:
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg00157.html


Gentlemen, thanks a lot for your attention and discussion.

Can we come to a conclusion ?
Shall I simply abandon at this stage any plan to package this application ?
Should I continue to prepare and create an ITP (Intend To Package) to enter in  
an official package consideration ?

Many thanks.

Regards,
Bruno

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-27 Thread ajdlinux

On 6/27/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gentlemen, thanks a lot for your attention and discussion.

Can we come to a conclusion ?
Shall I simply abandon at this stage any plan to package this application ?
Should I continue to prepare and create an ITP (Intend To Package) to enter
in
an official package consideration ?


AFAICS you can use it legally if you port it to GNUTLS.

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-25 Thread Marco d'Itri
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

to OpenSSL, and I believe the QPL is widely considered non-free.
Your belief is not correct.

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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-25 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le dimanche 24 juin 2007 à 09:30 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
 The stuff from Trolltech is another matter though - they use the GPL
 and the QPL I believe. If you use it under the GPL, then it can't link
 to OpenSSL, and I believe the QPL is widely considered non-free.

This is a bit more complicated. The QPL is DFSG-free, but only if you
don't apply section #6 - that is, if you consider the software based on
it as a modified version and not as an item linking to it. In which
case, it is a copyleft license, which is incompatible with both the GPL
and OpenSSL.

Practically speaking, if you link the software to OpenSSL you would have
to send any sources (including private ones) to the initial developer
upon request, while if you don't you just have to license it under a
license compatible with the QPL.

Cheers,
-- 
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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-25 Thread Francesco Poli
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 00:06:58 +0200 Josselin Mouette wrote:

 Le dimanche 24 juin 2007 à 09:30 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
  The stuff from Trolltech is another matter though - they use the GPL
  and the QPL I believe. If you use it under the GPL, then it can't
  link to OpenSSL, and I believe the QPL is widely considered
  non-free.
 
 This is a bit more complicated. The QPL is DFSG-free, but only if you
 don't apply section #6

This is equivalent to saying that software solely released under the QPL
does *not* comply with the DFSG.
When discussing whether a license meets the DFSG, patched versions of
the license cannot help the unpatched original license to meet the
DFSG...

And anyway, you there's not only clause 6c: another issue that makes the
QPL fail to meet the DFSG is the choice of venue.

The thread where these details are discussed starts here:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg00157.html


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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-24 Thread Bruno Costacurta
On Sunday 24 June 2007 01:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 6/24/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hello,
 
  I'm preparing an ITP (Intend To Package) as a newbie regarding Debian
  packaging. About the source (for the ITP) I'm not the developer and
  simply reproduced the copyright I found with source code.
  Could you please check the attached copyright file and its respect to
  Debian rules about license / copyright ?
  The template of the file was created by dh_make tools and I manually
  completed
  needed fields.

 It appears to be a standard 3-clause BSD license, which is fine,
 however it also claims to link with OpenSSL and some stuff from
 Trolltech.

 OpenSSL is fine, however it is GPL incompatible, so if this software
 is a library, you have to be careful.

 The stuff from Trolltech is another matter though - they use the GPL
 and the QPL I believe. If you use it under the GPL, then it can't link
 to OpenSSL, and I believe the QPL is widely considered non-free.

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Many thanks for your attention.
I checked more closely the licenses related to OpenSSl and Trolltech
which I found within related Debian packages I install to build my own package 
(please find both licenses attached).
My personal feeling is that they looks fine.

Maybe I should simply complete my first copyright file by adding licenses from 
OpenSSL and Trolltech (I repeat: both present in their respective Debian 
packages) ?
I suppose I can rely on the fact that because such licenses are already 
present in other debian packages I can build my own with same licenses. 
Correct ?

Many thanks for confirmation / correction.

Bye,
Bruno
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Copyright (c) 1998-2004 The OpenSSL Project
Copyright (c) 1995-1998 Eric A. Young, Tim J. Hudson

The upstream sources were obtained from http://www.openssl.org/


  LICENSE ISSUES
  ==

  The OpenSSL toolkit stays under a dual license, i.e. both the conditions of
  the OpenSSL License and the original SSLeay license apply to the toolkit.
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 * Copyright (c) 1998-2004 The OpenSSL Project.  All rights reserved.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 *
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. 
 *
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in
 *the documentation and/or other materials provided with the
 *distribution.
 *
 * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this
 *software must display the following acknowledgment:
 *This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project
 *for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit. (http://www.openssl.org/)
 *
 * 4. The names OpenSSL Toolkit and OpenSSL Project must not be used to
 *endorse or promote products derived from this software without
 *prior written permission. For written permission, please contact
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 *
 * 5. Products derived from this software may not be called OpenSSL
 *nor may OpenSSL appear in their names without prior written
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 *
 * 6. Redistributions of any form whatsoever must retain the following
 *acknowledgment:
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 *for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit (http://www.openssl.org/)
 *
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE OpenSSL PROJECT ``AS IS'' AND ANY
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 * PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE OpenSSL PROJECT OR
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 * SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT
 * NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
 * LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
 * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN 

Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-24 Thread ajdlinux

On 6/24/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Many thanks for your attention.
I checked more closely the licenses related to OpenSSl and Trolltech
which I found within related Debian packages I install to build my own
package
(please find both licenses attached).
My personal feeling is that they looks fine.

Maybe I should simply complete my first copyright file by adding licenses
from
OpenSSL and Trolltech (I repeat: both present in their respective Debian
packages) ?
I suppose I can rely on the fact that because such licenses are already
present in other debian packages I can build my own with same licenses.
Correct ?


The Trolltech license is still a problem, since it's GPL, and OpenSSL
cannot be linked to a GPL program (quoting from
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses):


The license of OpenSSL is a conjunction of two licenses, one of them
being the license of SSLeay. You must follow both. The combination
results in a copyleft free software license that is incompatible with
the GNU GPL. It also has an advertising clause like the original BSD
license and the Apache license.
We recommend using GNUTLS instead of OpenSSL in software you write.
However, there is no reason not to use OpenSSL and applications that
work with OpenSSL.


It is incompatible because there is an advertising clause and a
name-change clause, both of which make it impossible to link to a GPL
program.

I think you'd need to do one of the following:
  * not use OpenSSL
  * convert the OpenSSL code to use GNUTLS
  * or get a GPL exemption from Trolltech, which you most likely
won't be able to.

Can another d-l regular confirm?
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Re: Copyright verification needed

2007-06-23 Thread ajdlinux

On 6/24/07, Bruno Costacurta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello,

I'm preparing an ITP (Intend To Package) as a newbie regarding Debian
packaging. About the source (for the ITP) I'm not the developer and simply
reproduced the copyright I found with source code.
Could you please check the attached copyright file and its respect to Debian
rules about license / copyright ?
The template of the file was created by dh_make tools and I manually
completed
needed fields.


It appears to be a standard 3-clause BSD license, which is fine,
however it also claims to link with OpenSSL and some stuff from
Trolltech.

OpenSSL is fine, however it is GPL incompatible, so if this software
is a library, you have to be careful.

The stuff from Trolltech is another matter though - they use the GPL
and the QPL I believe. If you use it under the GPL, then it can't link
to OpenSSL, and I believe the QPL is widely considered non-free.

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Andrew Donnellan 
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