Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Jan 14 2007, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: I think Daniel's quality standards are not exceptionally high, or low, compared to other sponsors. That is, if you don't consider a newline in a textfile a quality measure of course. But the other comments he makes, regarding: proper attribution of copyright (even in sponsored packages that already have a version in Debian proper---people not used to academia are not familiar with the importance of this), his comments about keeping debian/rules minimal (changing the rules, not eliminating commented entries) etc are quite useful, his advices to make the changes minimal in a diff.gz package. All this is common sense, but many people don't seem to apply common sense to the programs that they write. Regards, Rogério Brito. -- Rogério Brito : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Homepage of the algorithms package : http://algorithms.berlios.de Homepage on freshmeat: http://freshmeat.net/projects/algorithms/
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Jan 14 2007, Muammar Wadih El Khatib Rodriguez wrote: In the other hand I don't think he has something to change, I really do appreciate all the work he does and how he does. He imposes a high quality standard when he sponsors a package. And this is what sets Debian apart from other distributions. Really. Regards, Rogério Brito. -- Rogério Brito : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Homepage of the algorithms package : http://algorithms.berlios.de Homepage on freshmeat: http://freshmeat.net/projects/algorithms/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Jan 14 2007, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: I think Daniel's quality standards are not exceptionally high, or low, compared to other sponsors. That is, if you don't consider a newline in a textfile a quality measure of course. But the other comments he makes, regarding: proper attribution of copyright (even in sponsored packages that already have a version in Debian proper---people not used to academia are not familiar with the importance of this), his comments about keeping debian/rules minimal (changing the rules, not eliminating commented entries) etc are quite useful, his advices to make the changes minimal in a diff.gz package. All this is common sense, but many people don't seem to apply common sense to the programs that they write. Regards, Rogério Brito. -- Rogério Brito : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Homepage of the algorithms package : http://algorithms.berlios.de Homepage on freshmeat: http://freshmeat.net/projects/algorithms/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Daniel Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: If you take a look at some other sponsors, you will see that if they have some criticism on a package, they will often include *why* it is a problem, and/or how to solve it. This doesn't have to be long. this would take me much more time to write the mail. besides from that, and that is the main reason why i don't do it, i expect a maintainer to be able to /either/ find more information about the problem on its own, /or/ to ask back, and then i'm explaining it more verbose. these are both two very basic requirements, i don't think that i'm overestimating people with this. I agree with Daniel. Short bullets that point the obvious points to look are very informative. Thank you for those. As to comes to removing # dh_* comments we agree to disagree on this. I have no problem with Daniel considering that a good practice, but I hope that all understad that developers may have other views that may be equally valid. After all the person who will be maintaining the package will surely know how he does it in most effective way. Jari -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Tuesday 16 January 2007 19:52, Jari Aalto wrote: As to comes to removing # dh_* comments we agree to disagree on this. I have no problem with [name omitted] considering that a good practice, but I hope that all understad that developers may have other views that may be equally valid. After all the person who will be maintaining the package will surely know how he does it in most effective way We are a heterogenous group of packagers for Debian - be it DDs or sponsees. A lesson that even the administration of the European Union has learned is that we should not attempt to render us into homogenous citizens. We shall be equal in rights - but not equal in cultures. The EU tears down customs but it preserves cultures. With Debian it should be similar. Some DDs are verbose, some a bit tight with words. Some like cdbs, others consider it as less helpful. Some ..., some... . Some ..., some ... . The older I got, the more I recognized that I cannot be a friend of everyone. Neither in the professional nor in the private life. And nobody should expect everyone to be a good sponsor for a particular person and a particular piece of software. Something to be learned from this long thread is that there is diversity and that many appreciate the examplified stricter directions for sponsoring. Hence, Debian would be poorer without it. So. please: if you do not like a particular sponsor then talk with him or her about it, split and try to find another one. After all, we have one things that unifies us: Debian and its manifestation in its social contract. All the best Steffen pgpSXgyqNIyPG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
* Roberto C. Sanchez ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070114 20:43]: Now, if something is a legitimate issue, it should be identified by lintian and/or linda in addition to being mentioned in policy and/or the developer reference. Agreed. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Jens Peter Secher wrote: As others have mentioned, some of the nitpicking is really your personal preferences, and not really something that makes a new Developer much better at the tasks involved in maintaining a package. I disagree. While a superfluous dh_* command or blank line here and there is not technically wrong, being strict with new developers keeps them from being sloppy and just minimally editing some templates. Instead they have to check and understand every line. At least from my experience I have learned a lot from this way of working. Regards, Marcus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Hi, Marc Haber wrote: On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 04:58:13PM +0100, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: I often find the lists that Daniel posts to resemble commands remove this., do not do that, this is bogus, that is useless but lacking of background or guidance. This might be a language problem. I am also a native speaker of German, and I observe myself to come over a lot more harsh than intended when I write english. I mean, German is the language that makes I love you sound like a declaration of war. Misunderstandings like that happen. I agree to that argument. I'm a german speaker aswell and my mails mostly sound harsh if i try to keep them short and strict. Thats why i regularly tend to write longer mails and pick my words carefully. But IMO that can not be expected, when you do check *a lot* of packages. And that is exactly what Daniel does. One should be realistic: Daniel is doing a good work, when he sponsors packages. I can agree to what others said before. It's not only that you have packages in Debian, but packages that you can be proud of. Technically flawless, stylistic IMO good as well. And additional: It is not so that Daniel is rude at all. If you ask him (and even if you ask him the same things twice) you'll get proper answers. He helped me much with my packages so far. I'm sure he does the same for others. Greetings Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:21:00 +0100, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: He imposes a high quality standard when he sponsors a package. I'm not sure about this reference to a quality standard multiple people in this thread are making. I did not question anything about the quality, just about communications. Hi Thijs, On the point of your email, At the end of last year I had some free time and spent it improving my packaging by getting involved with debian-mentors. As I am not a DD, I only helped with problems, and checked 20 or so packages for people. This is far below the number that Daniel has sponsored, and I don't claim that it makes me an expert on the subject. However I would like to contribute to the discussion. When I checked that humongous number of packages I was finding the same mistakes over and over again. Mistakes that are really easy to fix, and while they are not always highlighted clearly in the places that we look are repeatedly mentioned on the list. I felt that if people simply looked at one or two RFS threads on the list before they posted theirs they would be able to clean these things up. Picking three packages at random http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2006/09/msg00178.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2006/09/msg00419.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-mentors/2006/09/msg00662.html there are issues that come up over and over again (not to crticise those maintainers). All of this led me to be slightly disappointed that people didn't put as much effort in as they could when they were asking for time from other people. This detracted from my want to be verbose when explaining these things. As for the practical aspect, it gets boring to repeat yourself and say almost the same things over and over again (hehe!). In terms of solving this you could have preprepared answers ready for the common case (I liked to find a good reference on the problem and reference it, the how not to write a copyright file email being the best example), but that is likely to end up sounding cold as every response is the same. I don't know how any of this relates to any other sponsor on the list, and as I said this is from a short experience. Now, how to try and alleviate any problems that we have (if indeed a cold tone of voice is a problem, but I think it is symptomatic of a deeper problem). These are just some ideas of mine, and I am proposing them for discussion as there is absolutely nothing I can do to implement most of them. Please prefix everyone with In my opinion when you read it. For sponsors it would be good if they sponsored less packages, this way they will probably be more willing to work with each maintainer, as it will be less like a conveyor belt of packages. This is difficult without more sponsors, and there have been very few on the list for months now. For maintainers looking for sponsorship I think they should spend a little extra time checking the package, and reading about common mistakes, and certainly not think, well, it looks OK, and my sponsor will find any problems. I think this currently happens with the second or third sponsorships as people wont make the same mistakes twice. I have seen a couple of people going from making these sorts of mistakes to being excellent packagers in no time. I also have a couple of ideas for increasing the visibility of resources for packagers, and for highlighting common problems and learning good practices. I am thinking about some, and working slowly on others, but as always I have more ideas than time. My premise for most of this email has been that it has been repetition that has sparked off this thread, but I also think there are other things going on here that I haven't highlighted, and don't have the quick fixes that I have mentioned. Thanks for reading, James -- James Westby --GPG Key ID: B577FE13-- http://jameswestby.net/ seccure key - (3+)k7|M*edCX/.A:n*N!|7U.L#9E)Tu)T0AM - secp256r1/nistp256 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Daniel Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if you insist on keeping the useless stuff, i consider the package as to ugly according to my mesures of beauty, and hence i'm not sponsoring it. I think it would be better if you toned down this do-as-I-say-or-I-wont-sponsor-you attitude. As others have mentioned, some of the nitpicking is really your personal preferences, and not really something that makes a new Developer much better at the tasks involved in maintaining a package. Anyways, as new Developers get more comfortable with the debhelper parts, the superfluous comments seem to vanish. That is my experience. Cheers, -- Jens Peter Secher _DD6A 05B0 174E BFB2 D4D9 B52E 0EE5 978A FE63 E8A1 jpsecher gmail com_ A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, 2007-01-14 at 15:39 +0100, Jens Peter Secher wrote: Daniel Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if you insist on keeping the useless stuff, i consider the package as to ugly according to my mesures of beauty, and hence i'm not sponsoring it. I think it would be better if you toned down this do-as-I-say-or-I-wont-sponsor-you attitude. As others have mentioned, some of the nitpicking is really your personal preferences, and not really something that makes a new Developer much better at the tasks involved in maintaining a package. Let's not make a problem of this. It is normal that sponsors have different opinions. For example, if/when I become DD and start sponsoring, I intend to insist on getting errors or debian-policy violations fixed, and suggest some nice-to-have's for future updates. I intend to give the packager as much room for his/her own decisions/style/taste as possibly allowed by debian-policy. That is, in my opinion, the only way that can encourage a new packager to do more and more contributions. (It worked for me, thanks to my excellent sponsor Anibal.) On the other hand, the sponsor is completely free to choose which packages he wants to sponsor. And it is good that sponsors encourage new packagers to have an eye for the little things too. Let's not shoot Daniel for being just a bit more strict than other sponsors, and be happy that he sponsors so many packages. And keep in mind that the tone-of-voice in e-mails is always more harsh when read than when written. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, 2007-01-14 at 16:43 +0100, Bart Martens wrote: On the other hand, the sponsor is completely free to choose which packages he wants to sponsor. And it is good that sponsors encourage new packagers to have an eye for the little things too. Let's not shoot Daniel for being just a bit more strict than other sponsors, and be happy that he sponsors so many packages. And keep in mind that the tone-of-voice in e-mails is always more harsh when read than when written. :) I would recommend that any sponsor keeps that last thing in mind. Debian-mentors is supposed to be the friendly resource to get acquainted with Debian packaging. I often find the lists that Daniel posts to resemble commands remove this., do not do that, this is bogus, that is useless but lacking of background or guidance. If you take a look at some other sponsors, you will see that if they have some criticism on a package, they will often include *why* it is a problem, and/or how to solve it. This doesn't have to be long. Compare: * do not build a native package. with: * The package is Debian native, but the software is not Debian specific. The customary way to package software that has an upstream is to use the non-native packaging, which makes the package consist of a .orig.tar.gz from upstream and a .diff.gz for Debian. This clearly separates what modifications are done by Debian. There's a bit of text about this in the FAQ: http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html (example from this list) I think the latter is the form that suits the Debian Mentors list best. Of course there's no rules, but I'd prefer it nonetheless. Thanks for considering. Thijs signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
El dom, 14-01-2007 a las 16:58 +0100, Thijs Kinkhorst escribió: On Sun, 2007-01-14 at 16:43 +0100, Bart Martens wrote: On the other hand, the sponsor is completely free to choose which packages he wants to sponsor. And it is good that sponsors encourage new packagers to have an eye for the little things too. Let's not shoot Daniel for being just a bit more strict than other sponsors, and be happy that he sponsors so many packages. And keep in mind that the tone-of-voice in e-mails is always more harsh when read than when written. :) I would recommend that any sponsor keeps that last thing in mind. Debian-mentors is supposed to be the friendly resource to get acquainted with Debian packaging. I often find the lists that Daniel posts to resemble commands remove this., do not do that, this is bogus, that is useless but lacking of background or guidance. If you take a look at some other sponsors, you will see that if they have some criticism on a package, they will often include *why* it is a problem, and/or how to solve it. This doesn't have to be long. Compare: * do not build a native package. with: * The package is Debian native, but the software is not Debian specific. The customary way to package software that has an upstream is to use the non-native packaging, which makes the package consist of a .orig.tar.gz from upstream and a .diff.gz for Debian. This clearly separates what modifications are done by Debian. There's a bit of text about this in the FAQ: http://people.debian.org/~mpalmer/debian-mentors_FAQ.html (example from this list) I think the latter is the form that suits the Debian Mentors list best. Of course there's no rules, but I'd prefer it nonetheless. Thanks for considering. Obviously, there're no rules, but I think the example person you've quoted is not the best example. In my experience, Daniel is probably the most active Mentor and his help is always very valuable. I don't think nobody can feel offended by the tone of his mails. If somebody feels offended by his precisions and corrections, probably is somebody too proud to be able to learn anything. He spends a long time checking the packages and I don't think he has also to spend a long time writing emails that explain every correction in Detail. Somebody trying to package an application for Debian should be clever enough to know where to clarify any of the comments, as there are a lot of docs available to get the information. I prefer 10 Daniels spending their time correcting and helping people keeping that tone, than 100 sweet Mentors that only sponsor a few packages but have long emails with a lot of details. A package can be lintian clean and ready to be uploaded,but helped by Daniel, it is a perfect package ready to uploaded too, and to be proud of. This is just a personal opinion and I also hope it didn't offended anybody as it was not my intention at all. Regards. José L. signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: If you take a look at some other sponsors, you will see that if they have some criticism on a package, they will often include *why* it is a problem, and/or how to solve it. This doesn't have to be long. this would take me much more time to write the mail. besides from that, and that is the main reason why i don't do it, i expect a maintainer to be able to /either/ find more information about the problem on its own, /or/ to ask back, and then i'm explaining it more verbose. these are both two very basic requirements, i don't think that i'm overestimating people with this. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 15:39:45 +0100, Jens Peter Secher [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Daniel Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if you insist on keeping the useless stuff, i consider the package as to ugly according to my mesures of beauty, and hence i'm not sponsoring it. As others have mentioned, some of the nitpicking is really your personal preferences, and not really something that makes a new Developer much better at the tasks involved in maintaining a package. I was remarking the other day that most of my packages shall not pass the criteria being employed; and perhaps some leeway ought to be allowed. manoj -- Publishing a volume of verse is like dropping a rose petal down the Grand Canyon and waiting for the echo. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 04:58:13PM +0100, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: I often find the lists that Daniel posts to resemble commands remove this., do not do that, this is bogus, that is useless but lacking of background or guidance. This might be a language problem. I am also a native speaker of German, and I observe myself to come over a lot more harsh than intended when I write english. I mean, German is the language that makes I love you sound like a declaration of war. Misunderstandings like that happen. Greetings Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 05:35:02PM +0100, Daniel Baumann wrote: Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: If you take a look at some other sponsors, you will see that if they have some criticism on a package, they will often include *why* it is a problem, and/or how to solve it. This doesn't have to be long. this would take me much more time to write the mail. Since you regularly complain about the same things, you could use Textbausteine. Whatever that might be in English ;) Grüße Marc -- - Marc Haber | I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | lose things.Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 621 72739834 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 621 72739835 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Marc Haber wrote: Since you regularly complain about the same things, you could use Textbausteine. Whatever that might be in English ;) this is work on progress, once i've completed it (in some years or so :), i'll be able to point with numbers in a footnote to the verbose explenations. http://people.debian.org/~daniel/documents/packaging.html http://people.debian.org/~daniel/documents/sponsoring.html -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Jens Peter Secher wrote: Daniel Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if you insist on keeping the useless stuff, i consider the package as to ugly according to my mesures of beauty, and hence i'm not sponsoring it. I think it would be better if you toned down this do-as-I-say-or-I-wont-sponsor-you attitude. As others have mentioned, some of the nitpicking is really your personal preferences, and not really something that makes a new Developer much better at the tasks involved in maintaining a package. Anyways, as new Developers get more comfortable with the debhelper parts, the superfluous comments seem to vanish. That is my experience. Cheers, If I may give my view of sponsored... Daniel has been a very good sponsor with me so far, he helped me a lot to understand many things, he was fast, and was patient enough with my mistakes. He don't put lot's of emotions on his messages, he just write what he thinks is good, without any bla bla. As he does really A LOT of sponsorship, and seem to request some quality in many things (indentation on the maintainer script, copyright and everything), and repeat again and again all the time the same things. So the fact that he don't want to spend time in explaining is understandable. I'd be like him, and I understand well his view, it's do as I say, and don't loose my time even if he might not say this way or somebody would soon flame him. But I think this last sentence is the true explanation, that's the only way to be efficient: sponsor a lot of people and keep quality. I agree on the fact that if somebody is not happy, he can try to go and see somebody that cares less about a package being beautiful to Daniel's eyes, or take care more on messages. On my case, I do appreciate a lot the quality standard that he imposed to me. I agree Daniel's tone is not the best, as it's a bit as cold as a compiler message (error X line Y), but that's efficient. Also, as said Daniel he always adds explanations when we ask. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On 1/14/07, Thomas Goirand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jens Peter Secher wrote: Daniel Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if you insist on keeping the useless stuff, i consider the package as to ugly according to my mesures of beauty, and hence i'm not sponsoring it. I think it would be better if you toned down this do-as-I-say-or-I-wont-sponsor-you attitude. As others have mentioned, some of the nitpicking is really your personal preferences, and not really something that makes a new Developer much better at the tasks involved in maintaining a package. Anyways, as new Developers get more comfortable with the debhelper parts, the superfluous comments seem to vanish. That is my experience. Cheers, If I may give my view of sponsored... Daniel has been a very good sponsor with me so far, he helped me a lot to understand many things, he was fast, and was patient enough with my mistakes. He don't put lot's of emotions on his messages, he just write what he thinks is good, without any bla bla. I agree. Daniel is a perfectionist and reliable person. I have learned a lot when he sponsors me. He doesn't put lots of emotions because as far as I can see he is a very objective person. I also have to say that I like when he sponsors me because I can understand and improve a lot the work that I do in Debian. In the other hand I don't think he has something to change, I really do appreciate all the work he does and how he does. He imposes a high quality standard when he sponsors a package. Regards, -- Muammar El Khatib. Linux user: 403107. Key fingerprint = 90B8 BFC4 4A75 B881 39A3 1440 30EB 403B 1270 29F1 http://muammarelkhatib.net | http://www.teorex.org ,''`. : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
* Daniel Baumann ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070114 17:55]: Marc Haber wrote: Since you regularly complain about the same things, you could use Textbausteine. Whatever that might be in English ;) this is work on progress, once i've completed it (in some years or so :), i'll be able to point with numbers in a footnote to the verbose explenations. http://people.debian.org/~daniel/documents/packaging.html http://people.debian.org/~daniel/documents/sponsoring.html Well, I would recommend that common packaging hints should go to the developers reference, and please only one thing per bug report. (Taste issues however won't go there, different people have different tastes, that's a feature). Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 03:11:54PM -0400, Muammar Wadih El Khatib Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/14/07, Thomas Goirand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jens Peter Secher wrote: Daniel Baumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: if you insist on keeping the useless stuff, i consider the package as to ugly according to my mesures of beauty, and hence i'm not sponsoring it. I think it would be better if you toned down this do-as-I-say-or-I-wont-sponsor-you attitude. As others have mentioned, some of the nitpicking is really your personal preferences, and not really something that makes a new Developer much better at the tasks involved in maintaining a package. Anyways, as new Developers get more comfortable with the debhelper parts, the superfluous comments seem to vanish. That is my experience. Cheers, If I may give my view of sponsored... Daniel has been a very good sponsor with me so far, he helped me a lot to understand many things, he was fast, and was patient enough with my mistakes. He don't put lot's of emotions on his messages, he just write what he thinks is good, without any bla bla. I agree. Daniel is a perfectionist and reliable person. Too bad he doesn't apply his sponsoring standards on his own packages. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Andreas Barth wrote: (Taste issues however won't go there, different people have different tastes, that's a feature). jftr: that is why i didn't, don't and will not consider to submit it for the forseeable future, aside from that it is far from complete. however, you and i said both excately the same about this on irc already, half a year ago. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 08:34:21PM +0100, Andreas Barth wrote: Well, I would recommend that common packaging hints should go to the developers reference, and please only one thing per bug report. (Taste issues however won't go there, different people have different tastes, that's a feature). I agree. However, I think the issue concerns the requirement that someone's preferences be followed. For example, it is one thing to say, I can't sponsor your package because you use cdbs and I don't know anything about it. It is completely different to say, I won't sponsor your package because I don't like the changelog format you used. Now, if something is a legitimate issue, it should be identified by lintian and/or linda in addition to being mentioned in policy and/or the developer reference. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Mike Hommey wrote: Too bad he doesn't apply his sponsoring standards on his own packages. nobody is perfect, only a few old ones are not (yet) complying. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Now, if something is a legitimate issue, it should be identified by lintian and/or linda in addition to being mentioned in policy and/or the developer reference. first, i'm a debian developer without any delegation (especially not for anything mentors related). i'm not even involved in anything with the mentors infrastructure. second, it is my very freedom to not do something when i don't want to do it. i need neither a legitimation for that, nor do i need to give any justification. every reason, even when given none, is perfectly valid. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 02:43:12PM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: I agree. However, I think the issue concerns the requirement that someone's preferences be followed. For example, it is one thing to say, I can't sponsor your package because you use cdbs and I don't know anything about it. It is completely different to say, I won't sponsor your package because I don't like the changelog format you used. That's not really it: it's obviously OK to not sponsor a package for completely random reasons since there's no obligation on people to sponsor things. What seems to be more of an issue here is differentiating between issues that need to be fixed for the package to be acceptable in general (for example, licensing issues) and issues that a given sponsor happens to feel strongly about. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, 2007-01-14 at 15:11 -0400, Muammar Wadih El Khatib Rodriguez wrote: He imposes a high quality standard when he sponsors a package. I'm not sure about this reference to a quality standard multiple people in this thread are making. I did not question anything about the quality, just about communications. I think Daniel's quality standards are not exceptionally high, or low, compared to other sponsors. That is, if you don't consider a newline in a textfile a quality measure of course. Thijs signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: I agree. However, I think the issue concerns the requirement that someone's preferences be followed. For example, it is one thing to say, I can't sponsor your package because you use cdbs and I don't know anything about it. It is completely different to say, I won't sponsor your package because I don't like the changelog format you used. Now, if something is a legitimate issue, it should be identified by lintian and/or linda in addition to being mentioned in policy and/or the developer reference. Daniel many times told me that for example, I shouldn't use 2 blank lines on my debian/rules, don't have empty space a end of line in my copyright, and things like that. I agree it doesn't mater MUCH, but it's still better the way he advise me to correct. And do you really thing it's SO BAD and that it takes SO MUCH time to do those little changes, or to try to comply with what he thinks is good? I think it's all right, and that it helps to have something more clean and easy to read... I also think it's ridiculous to complain about somebody's perfectionism. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 04:29:58AM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: Daniel many times told me that for example, I shouldn't use 2 blank lines on my debian/rules, don't have empty space a end of line in my copyright, and things like that. I agree it doesn't mater MUCH, but it's still better the way he advise me to correct. And do you really thing it's SO BAD and that it takes SO MUCH time to do those little changes, or to try to comply with what he thinks is good? I think it's all right, and that it helps to have something more clean and easy to read... I also think it's ridiculous to complain about somebody's perfectionism. Right. But are things like two blank lines in debian/rules and blank space at the end of the line policy issues? No. I too am a perfectionist, but I also recongnize that not everyone is. If request sponsorship for a package and the potential sponsor points out issues with the package, then that is fine. If the issues are policy driven or otherwise mandated then I will certainly fix them. I would not seriously expect anyone to sponsor a package of mine with an outstanding issue like that. However, I choose to not change things which are a matter of preference, then that should not impact the sponsor's willingness to sponsor the package. For the potential sponsor to do that would come off as elitist. What if I like two blank lines in debian/rules to break up the sections logically? If I like it that way and the potential sponsor does not, but the policy says nothing about it, then who is right? The same goes for whitespace at the end of a line somewhere? Is it really that important? There are likely hundreds of these little sorts of preference issues out there. I don't think that pointing them out is wrong, but I don't think that someone forcing their view of what they think is right is justified, unless there is something in policy or the developer reference or lintian/linda to provide justification. Regards, -Roberto Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 09:09:30PM +0100, Daniel Baumann wrote: first, i'm a debian developer without any delegation (especially not for anything mentors related). i'm not even involved in anything with the mentors infrastructure. I applaud your work. There are too few people who are willing and able to lend a hand to get new prospective Debian developers up to speed. second, it is my very freedom to not do something when i don't want to do it. i need neither a legitimation for that, nor do i need to give any justification. every reason, even when given none, is perfectly valid. Yes, but enforcing your preferences on someone makes you come off as elitist. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Thomas Goirand wrote: Daniel many times told me that for example, I shouldn't use 2 blank lines on my debian/rules, don't have empty space a end of line in my copyright, and things like that. I agree it doesn't mater MUCH, but it's still better the way he advise me to correct. I would much rather see new packages getting a basic security review than having that time spent perfecting whitespace. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: I would not seriously expect anyone to sponsor a package of mine with an outstanding issue like that. please read the whole mail about his debian/rules and why i prefere to not sponsor such packages. giving the impression, i wouldn't sponsor packages due to whitespaces or empty lines is not fair. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Roberto C Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: However, I choose to not change things which are a matter of preference, then that should not impact the sponsor's willingness to sponsor the package. For the potential sponsor to do that would come off as elitist. What if I like two blank lines in debian/rules to break up the sections logically? If I like it that way and the potential sponsor does not, but the policy says nothing about it, then who is right? No one is *right*, necessarily, but sponsors aren't under any obligation to sponsor packages. Daniel is dealing with about fifty times as many packages as I ever could even when I was actively sponsoring, but he doesn't have to sponsor anything he doesn't want to sponsor. As much as he's doing a large chunk of the sponsoring these days, there are still other people willing to sponsor packages. The same goes for whitespace at the end of a line somewhere? Is it really that important? There are likely hundreds of these little sorts of preference issues out there. I don't think that pointing them out is wrong, but I don't think that someone forcing their view of what they think is right is justified, unless there is something in policy or the developer reference or lintian/linda to provide justification. There's no forcing. Daniel's doing people a favor which he's under no obligation to do. People who want him for a sponsor have to do things his way; people who don't want to do that are certainly no worse off than if Daniel wasn't sponsoring anything at all. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On Sun, Jan 14, 2007 at 09:57:14PM +0100, Daniel Baumann wrote: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: I would not seriously expect anyone to sponsor a package of mine with an outstanding issue like that. please read the whole mail about his debian/rules and why i prefere to not sponsor such packages. giving the impression, i wouldn't sponsor packages due to whitespaces or empty lines is not fair. I did not mean to imply that you refused to sponsor someone's packages over whitespace. I was simply trying to say that it is ok to point things out. However, *I* happen to think that it is wrong to refuse to sponsor a package because someone prefers to do something one way and you prefer to see it done differently. As you and a number of other people have pointed out, no one is forcing you to sponsor anyone's packages. You can feel free to require that people make a photograph of themselves in a yellow chicken suit available on the Internet before you will sponsor a package. That is if that sort of thing strikes your fancy, since it is just as arbitrary as having whitespace done a certain way. I think Joey Hess has the right idea in how he points out that it is better to focus on things like security, rather than whitespace. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Muammar Wadih El Khatib Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In the other hand I don't think he has something to change, I really do appreciate all the work he does and how he does. He imposes a high quality standard when he sponsors a package. Erm. Fixing the number of whitespaces in scripts, Makefiles and control files, but sponsoring something like dtc (see the BTS for some problems) is a good sign that Daniel's priorities are not right. He goes on and on about his pet issues, but I don't believe that his or the packages of his applicants are of exceptionally good quality. There's more to packaging than counting the number of empty lines. Marc -- BOFH #90: Budget cuts pgpElasNZ4Sym.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: Muammar Wadih El Khatib Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In the other hand I don't think he has something to change, I really do appreciate all the work he does and how he does. He imposes a high quality standard when he sponsors a package. Erm. Fixing the number of whitespaces in scripts, Makefiles and control files, but sponsoring something like dtc (see the BTS for some problems) is a good sign that Daniel's priorities are not right. Thanks to him, all the issues I had in the package are now fixed. I'll send an update very soon. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Tone-of-voice used by sponsors
On 1/14/07, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Muammar Wadih El Khatib Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In the other hand I don't think he has something to change, I really do appreciate all the work he does and how he does. He imposes a high quality standard when he sponsors a package. Erm. Fixing the number of whitespaces in scripts, Makefiles and control files, but sponsoring something like dtc (see the BTS for some problems) is a good sign that Daniel's priorities are not right. He goes on and on about his pet issues, but I don't believe that his or the packages of his applicants are of exceptionally good quality. There's more to packaging than counting the number of empty lines. I really don't understand why this kind of things happen. It's logical to think that both parts aren't in the obligation of sponsoring or accepting sponsorship. If Jens thought and felt Daniel was wrong, so he could told him that he didn't want to change what were suggested and he'd look for another sponsor (Jen has his reasons like Daniel has his own ones) and therefore don't be sponsored by him. Now, I think it's not good to send an email like accusing someone in here nor discrediting the work of the others. It could be fixed and discussed in another way. Also I don't understand why if we are part of the same project, we sometimes have to talk us like if it was a war. I think Debian is great and I don't know If the work I have done sucks :S or at least I have done it well to say what I wrote above is what I think about this situation. Regards and thanks for reading, -- Muammar El Khatib. Linux user: 403107. Key fingerprint = 90B8 BFC4 4A75 B881 39A3 1440 30EB 403B 1270 29F1 http://muammarelkhatib.net | http://www.teorex.org ,''`. : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
