Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.com wrote: OK. I think that convinces me it's widely enough spread we ought to fix this for Wheezy. I'll take it up with the release managers as it's their decision, not mine. Bug filed: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=723182 - Kerrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANaWP3x4oUtXSKSodVtu+2Xe_LH=yyknopykk1gdveso8ey...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 4:05 AM, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote: On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 09:53:41PM +1000, Ben Finney wrote: Lachlan lachlan...@gmail.com writes: i'm not an expert by any means but i fail to see how this is an issue? In short: Debian is not the only Unix-like system where Python is installed, and consistency across operating systems is valuable. Yes, it is, which is what makes the Arch devs' change to make things *inconsistent* by pointing /usr/bin/python to python3 an unforgivable screwup. /usr/bin/python is an interface for python2. Having this change over time to point to something incompatible, such as python3, is Evil Bad Wrong. We are now in the situation that we have to ship /usr/bin/python2 for compatibility with scripts originating from Arch, but that in no way implies that /usr/bin/python should be changed to python3. Repurposing /usr/bin/python should only happen following an intervening release in which python2 is not shipped *at all*. -Everyone wrote scripts for python 2.x using /usr/bin/python And eventually Python 2 will be long obsolete. And *once that happens*, we can discuss resurrecting /usr/bin/python and pointing it to python3. It should not change until then. That's a wrong strategy. The scripts should be patched to use right version of Python, and they could not be patched until Debian doesn't provide right version for them, i.e. python2. -With python3, scripts were written specifically for python3 using /usr/bin/python3 Not all of them, and the expectation is that more and more systems will assume “/usr/bin/python” is the current version of Python. Who expects that? Arch is negligible. Debian and Ubuntu are not going to make this change. What other OSes are making the ill-conceived change to /usr/bin/python? Windows never did the conversion. It just came natural for this 'poorly designed OS' to rewrite Python binaries with the latest installed. You could never expect to find Python of required version on this platform. Probably it was one of the reasons why virtualenv was born. See PEP 394 URL:http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/. It's not the first or last time that an upstream has made a poor recommendation that Debian rightly ignores. Enabling /usr/bin/python2 compatibility benefits our users, yes. Promoting its use, or making /usr/bin/python incompatible with the many existing scripts running on older Debian releases, does not. As a Python developer I couldn't care less for the default Python stuff as long as my scripts use proper shebang. python for 2/3 compatible stuff, python2 for 2.x only and python3 where needed. The Debian python policy should require that. This is an upstream recommendation that Debian wrongly didn't pay attention to, choosing to complain about inevitable natural processes instead. Take it easy. -- anatoly t. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAPkN8x+s=t5BZZzZogGhEFux=5ixmzuckl9ay1uo6nntaab...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sep 15, 2013, at 01:24 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote: I mean that generally it is hard to say what problems people face when trying to make the code running on both Python 3 and Python 2. My own experience shows that testing both is very burdensome no matter if you port app or start from scratch. Generally you should keep in mind all differences between both languages and that alone already hard. YMMV of course, but the way I'd put it is that sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's damn near impossible. ;) If you're writing from scratch and target 2.7 and 3.3 (let's say) from the start, then I think it's generally not that hard, assuming of course your dependencies are available in both. Most, though not all, of the stdlib stuff that comes for free with 3.3 is available in some form or another in 2.7. Yes, you have to keep in mind the language differences, and maybe your code really requires some of the new features, but most code doesn't I suspect. Porting existing code can be harder, but often is not that difficult, and more and more popular code bases are getting ported all the time. If your favorite thing isn't available, write patches. These days, I think it's a black mark for an upstream to refuse good Python 3 porting patches. Most critical of all is: be clear in your bytes vs. strings model and you're probably closer to the easy side of the scale. -Barry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130916100321.263801b8@anarchist
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sep 15, 2013, at 06:05 PM, Steve Langasek wrote: And *once that happens*, we can discuss resurrecting /usr/bin/python and pointing it to python3. It should not change until then. Python 2.7 will have an upstream lifetime of many years even from now. The current thinking (I wouldn't even call it a plan at this point) is that we transition 2.7 into security-only source-only mode around the Python 3.5 time frame. A rough approximation puts that around Summer/Fall 2015. After that, I'm confident that 2.7 will get upstream security fixes for at least 3 more years. So really, you're talking about EOL'ing 2.7 no earlier than 2018. (Contrast that with 2.6 which I will gladly drive the final nail in next month. ;) See PEP 394 URL:http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/. It's not the first or last time that an upstream has made a poor recommendation that Debian rightly ignores. Please note that I think there's been some confusion about PEP 394, which recent rewording has hopefully clarified. This PEP is *not* recommending that /usr/bin/python point to Python 3, it simply acknowledges that some distributions have done this. In fact, the PEP explicitly recommends that /usr/bin/python refer to the same target as python2 (yes, for the time being but still). Probably the most controversial bit in the PEP for this group is the recommendation that python should be used in the shebang line only for scripts that are source compatible with both Python 2 and 3. IMHO, having scripts (as opposed to libraries) be bilingual is rather silly, so take this recommendation with a grain of salt, but for maximum portability with other OSes, use python2 or python3 explicitly. And yay, you'll be able to do that starting in Jessie although the build-tools won't support 'python2' in shebang lines. That doesn't seem like such a big deal to me because the build tools are specifically for building packages intended to work on Debian, not for building cross platform scripts. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sep 16, 2013, at 10:16 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote: As a Python developer I couldn't care less for the default Python stuff as long as my scripts use proper shebang. python for 2/3 compatible stuff, python2 for 2.x only and python3 where needed. If you're distributing software intended to be used on a wide range of OSes and you're building your distributions with non-OS tools, then I think this is fine and Debian (starting with Jessie) will let you do this. So there's no problem needing fixing. The Debian python policy should require that. This is an upstream recommendation that Debian wrongly didn't pay attention to, choosing to complain about inevitable natural processes instead. Again, I think it's no big deal that the Debian tools use /usr/bin/python in the shebang for Python 2 scripts. Debian tools and policy are about building great software for *Debian* and its derivatives, not for building cross platform scripts. If you're looking for cross-platform support look upstream, at setuptools, pip, virtualenv, and that ecosystem. -Barry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130916103743.7d6645b1@anarchist
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.com wrote: The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. I do not agree. -- anatoly t. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAPkN8x+yVDnRnTU2Nq_-+KQbKasGSUSRBqDWbFOQ=qayxiz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 12:55 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.com wrote: The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. I do not agree. I mean that generally it is hard to say what problems people face when trying to make the code running on both Python 3 and Python 2. My own experience shows that testing both is very burdensome no matter if you port app or start from scratch. Generally you should keep in mind all differences between both languages and that alone already hard. -- anatoly t. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/capkn8x+qk6qc_7zfdentymjyaxzebuatcwsu94vwq2cswva...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 1:24 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 12:55 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.com wrote: The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. I do not agree. I mean that generally it is hard to say what problems people face when trying to make the code running on both Python 3 and Python 2. My own experience shows that testing both is very burdensome no matter if you port app or start from scratch. Generally you should keep in mind all differences between both languages and that alone already hard. And as anti-offtopic, writing only for Python 2 has its advantages, and leaving out this option for Debian users now seriously affect future of Debian as a backward compatible Python platform in future. So, I am +1 fpor adding python2 command ASAP. -- anatoly t. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAPkN8x++8mTZNznJSNQbp7Q+fawWAhW_X-U9317=4Ya5=04...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
i'm not an expert by any means but i fail to see how this is an issue? -Everyone wrote scripts for python 2.x using /usr/bin/python -With python3, scripts were written specifically for python3 using /usr/bin/python3 When Debian eventually changes to python3 by default all the scripts will be written using /usr/bin/python3 anyway so it shouldn't matter what the python symlink is as we are following the major release number for python3+. There isn't a reason to change the /usr/bin/python link let alone create one for python2. Debian source packages that require a python2 symlink would be patched out and it would be fine. On 15 September 2013 20:29, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 1:24 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 12:55 PM, anatoly techtonik techto...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 7:25 PM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.com wrote: The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. I do not agree. I mean that generally it is hard to say what problems people face when trying to make the code running on both Python 3 and Python 2. My own experience shows that testing both is very burdensome no matter if you port app or start from scratch. Generally you should keep in mind all differences between both languages and that alone already hard. And as anti-offtopic, writing only for Python 2 has its advantages, and leaving out this option for Debian users now seriously affect future of Debian as a backward compatible Python platform in future. So, I am +1 fpor adding python2 command ASAP. -- anatoly t. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAPkN8x++8mTZNznJSNQbp7Q+fawWAhW_X-U9317=4Ya5=04...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
Lachlan lachlan...@gmail.com writes: i'm not an expert by any means but i fail to see how this is an issue? In short: Debian is not the only Unix-like system where Python is installed, and consistency across operating systems is valuable. -Everyone wrote scripts for python 2.x using /usr/bin/python And eventually Python 2 will be long obsolete. -With python3, scripts were written specifically for python3 using /usr/bin/python3 Not all of them, and the expectation is that more and more systems will assume “/usr/bin/python” is the current version of Python. See PEP 394 URL:http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/. -- \ “Religious faith is the one species of human ignorance that | `\will not admit of even the *possibility* of correction.” —Sam | _o__) Harris, _The End of Faith_, 2004 | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7wioy2z4fu@benfinney.id.au
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On 15 September 2013 07:53, Ben Finney ben+deb...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Lachlan lachlan...@gmail.com writes: Not all of them, and the expectation is that more and more systems will assume “/usr/bin/python” is the current version of Python. I haven't seen any evidence that anyone except Arch has any intention to do that. Jeremy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caaajcmzrqnlagzd5ev4vargfqbvos2ntrq1szhnzxku6g1c...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
Scott, I booted up a CentOS 6.4 VM, and the symlink is there (runs python2.6). I'd be interested to know if there are any other systems where it's unavailable though. - Kerrick On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.comwrote: Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: What's not included in some newer releases here? /usr/bin/python2 has been present on all systems I've used except Debian. - Kerrick It looks to me like the latest Centos ships with python2.6 and /usr/bin/python2 only shipped with 2.7. Scott K On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.comwrote: Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: Thanks! The upstream recommendation (from PEP 394 [1]) is that, going forward, portable scripts *can't* assume python is python2, and *should* use python2. - Kerrick [1] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'm very familiar with it. Now we get to Arch is insane. They've put developers in a difficult spot. They have to choose between /usr/bin/python2 and works on Arch and some newer releases and /usr/bin/python and works everywhere except Arch. The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. Then there's no need to care. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cd5aef27-a8e2-4675-b22a-51a72a637...@email.android.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: Scott, I booted up a CentOS 6.4 VM, and the symlink is there (runs python2.6). I'd be interested to know if there are any other systems where it's unavailable though. OK. I think that convinces me it's widely enough spread we ought to fix this for Wheezy. I'll take it up with the release managers as it's their decision, not mine. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/b0b3242f-767f-4238-8e9e-09ae81039...@email.android.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sunday, September 15, 2013 14:34:27 Scott Kitterman wrote: Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: Scott, I booted up a CentOS 6.4 VM, and the symlink is there (runs python2.6). I'd be interested to know if there are any other systems where it's unavailable though. OK. I think that convinces me it's widely enough spread we ought to fix this for Wheezy. I'll take it up with the release managers as it's their decision, not mine. I don't see a bug open in the Debian BTS for this. Would you please file one. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/13138907.IMvDsmKFgQ@scott-latitude-e6320
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
On Sun, Sep 15, 2013 at 09:53:41PM +1000, Ben Finney wrote: Lachlan lachlan...@gmail.com writes: i'm not an expert by any means but i fail to see how this is an issue? In short: Debian is not the only Unix-like system where Python is installed, and consistency across operating systems is valuable. Yes, it is, which is what makes the Arch devs' change to make things *inconsistent* by pointing /usr/bin/python to python3 an unforgivable screwup. /usr/bin/python is an interface for python2. Having this change over time to point to something incompatible, such as python3, is Evil Bad Wrong. We are now in the situation that we have to ship /usr/bin/python2 for compatibility with scripts originating from Arch, but that in no way implies that /usr/bin/python should be changed to python3. Repurposing /usr/bin/python should only happen following an intervening release in which python2 is not shipped *at all*. -Everyone wrote scripts for python 2.x using /usr/bin/python And eventually Python 2 will be long obsolete. And *once that happens*, we can discuss resurrecting /usr/bin/python and pointing it to python3. It should not change until then. -With python3, scripts were written specifically for python3 using /usr/bin/python3 Not all of them, and the expectation is that more and more systems will assume “/usr/bin/python” is the current version of Python. Who expects that? Arch is negligible. Debian and Ubuntu are not going to make this change. What other OSes are making the ill-conceived change to /usr/bin/python? See PEP 394 URL:http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/. It's not the first or last time that an upstream has made a poor recommendation that Debian rightly ignores. Enabling /usr/bin/python2 compatibility benefits our users, yes. Promoting its use, or making /usr/bin/python incompatible with the many existing scripts running on older Debian releases, does not. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
Thanks! The upstream recommendation (from PEP 394 [1]) is that, going forward, portable scripts *can't* assume python is python2, and *should* use python2. - Kerrick [1] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: Thanks! The upstream recommendation (from PEP 394 [1]) is that, going forward, portable scripts *can't* assume python is python2, and *should* use python2. - Kerrick [1] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'm very familiar with it. Now we get to Arch is insane. They've put developers in a difficult spot. They have to choose between /usr/bin/python2 and works on Arch and some newer releases and /usr/bin/python and works everywhere except Arch. The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. Then there's no need to care. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7a1743e6-afc6-44f0-9f29-5d5a60af2...@email.android.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
What's not included in some newer releases here? /usr/bin/python2 has been present on all systems I've used except Debian. - Kerrick On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.comwrote: Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: Thanks! The upstream recommendation (from PEP 394 [1]) is that, going forward, portable scripts *can't* assume python is python2, and *should* use python2. - Kerrick [1] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'm very familiar with it. Now we get to Arch is insane. They've put developers in a difficult spot. They have to choose between /usr/bin/python2 and works on Arch and some newer releases and /usr/bin/python and works everywhere except Arch. The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. Then there's no need to care. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7a1743e6-afc6-44f0-9f29-5d5a60af2...@email.android.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: What's not included in some newer releases here? /usr/bin/python2 has been present on all systems I've used except Debian. - Kerrick It looks to me like the latest Centos ships with python2.6 and /usr/bin/python2 only shipped with 2.7. Scott K On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Scott Kitterman deb...@kitterman.comwrote: Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: Thanks! The upstream recommendation (from PEP 394 [1]) is that, going forward, portable scripts *can't* assume python is python2, and *should* use python2. - Kerrick [1] http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ I'm very familiar with it. Now we get to Arch is insane. They've put developers in a difficult spot. They have to choose between /usr/bin/python2 and works on Arch and some newer releases and /usr/bin/python and works everywhere except Arch. The only suggestion I can make is that it's generally not that hard for new code to make it work for both python2.7 and python3.3. Then there's no need to care. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cd5aef27-a8e2-4675-b22a-51a72a637...@email.android.com
Re: Please install /usr/bin/python2
Kerrick Staley kerr...@kerrickstaley.com wrote: Please install /usr/bin/python2 as part of the default Debian install. It still doesn't exist on 7.1, which prevents scripts with a shebang of #!/usr/bin/python2 from running. Note that the following matters (which have derailed previous threads on this topic) are irrelevant to this request: - whether Debian scripts should switch to /usr/bin/python2 instead of /usr/bin/python - whether /usr/bin/python should currently be Python 3 - whether /usr/bin/python should ever be Python 3 - whether Python 2 will ever be deprecated - whether Arch switching /usr/bin/python to Python 3 was a bad idea - whether Arch is stupid Regardless of any of the above, adding /usr/bin/python2 is definitely a Good Thing and will Benefit Users, because there are an increasing number of scripts in the wild using #!/usr/bin/python2. It's also the Upstream Recommendation. It's an accident it wasn't provided in wheezy, but I don't think it's the kind of bug that's suitable for a post-release fix. It's already in Testing, so there's not more to do now. There are many, many systems from many different distributions that don't have /usr/bin/python2. Script authors that want their work to be portable shouldn't assume it exists. That's true independent of if we fix the in Wheezy or not. Scott K -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-python-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7fc2bc78-849e-4f2e-a898-e29431733...@email.android.com
