debian version ID

[Felix Miata]

Will someone please explain (or point to, since it's not in release notes), why:

1: /etc/os-release (in Jessie at least) does not include the point release 
version as represented by /etc/debian_version


2: 8.5 (as installed here on host gx62b) is not using the (LTS) 4.4 kernel
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

how to install previous releases

[Wen Hao Wang]

Hi, I like to install some previous releases, like Debian 8.3 and 7.10. But
I failed to get download page from www.debian.org. How/where can I get
them? Thanks in advance.

Re: Downloading and naming

[Stephen Powell]

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016, at 19:07, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Le 01/08/2016 à 00:00, Stephen Powell a écrit :
>> one's processor supports PAE, but the motherboard only supports a maximum of
>> 2 GiB of RAM, what does a PAE kernel buy one?  Nothing, as far as I can see.
> 
> PAE allows to use the NX/XD bit on CPU which support it to prevent 
> execution of data memory areas.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no 32-bit-only processors which
support the NX bit.  A 32-bit PAE-enabled kernel can only use NX if it
is running on a 64-bit-capable processor.  I should have explicitly stated
what was an implicit assumption, namely, that the processor is not
64-bit capable.  To give a specific example, my IBM ThinkPad X31 has
a Pentium M processor, which is PAE capable and 32 bit only, and the motherboard
only supports a maximum of 2 GiB of RAM.  I *can* run a PAE-enabled kernel
on it, but a PAE-enabled kernel uses more memory.  PAE allows more than 4 GiB
of memory to be accessed, but I don't have that much.  And the PAE kernel
can't exploit the NX bit, because the processor doesn't support it.
A PAE-enabled kernel actually *hurts* me in this case.  I'm better off running
a non-PAE kernel, even though the processor supports PAE. 

-- 
  .''`. Stephen Powell
 : :'  :
 `. `'`
   `-

Re: Downloading and naming

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 01/08/2016 à 00:00, Stephen Powell a écrit :

one's processor supports PAE, but the motherboard only supports a maximum of
2 GiB of RAM, what does a PAE kernel buy one?  Nothing, as far as I can see.


PAE allows to use the NX/XD bit on CPU which support it to prevent 
execution of data memory areas.

Re: Downloading and naming

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 31 July 2016 23:00:24 Stephen Powell wrote:
> If you like Ubuntu better than Debian, fine.  Use Ubuntu.  Nobody's
> stopping you.  But don't come over here and try to tell us that we should
> be doing things the way Ubuntu does.  We're different for a reason.  I'm
> not saying there isn't room for improvement: I'm sure there is.  But asking
> questions is one thing.  Telling us we should be like Ubuntu is another.

Thank you Stephen.  I can see myself quoting you in future!

Lisi

Re: Downloading and naming

[Stephen Powell]

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016, at 03:46, Brian Wengel wrote:
> 
> Dear Debian community
> 
> Maybe it’s just me, but as a rather new-comer to the Debian world a few
> things puzzles me.
> 
> 1: Going to the download section is like being taken 15 years back. Isn’t
> it time to take the step to move away from the CD/DVD media and move into
> the USB Flash drive arena?
> ...

I'll stop quoting there, because the rest of your post has the same general
tone.

Debian is not a bleeding-edge distribution.  Many of us use old hardware,
hardware that has been abandoned by Windows long ago, hardware that in
many cases has even been abandoned by other Linux Distributions.  For
example, Debian is one of the few Linux distributions, maybe the only Linux
distribution, to still provide non-PAE kernels.  Ubuntu has been providing
only PAE stock kernels for some time now.  Even if the hardware supports PAE,
some of us prefer to run a non-PAE kernel because it uses less memory.  If
one's processor supports PAE, but the motherboard only supports a maximum of
2 GiB of RAM, what does a PAE kernel buy one?  Nothing, as far as I can see.
But some distributions have a one-size-fits-all slam it, jam it, cram it,
attitude, an attitude based solely on minimizing their support costs,
rather than on trying to provide what's best for as many users as possible.

We like to think of ourselves as "The Universal Operating System".  It's
not truly universal, but it's close.  A quick check of the ports page shows
that we support about 10 official ports and about 20 unofficial ports.
How many hardware platforms does Ubuntu support?

If you like Ubuntu better than Debian, fine.  Use Ubuntu.  Nobody's stopping
you.  But don't come over here and try to tell us that we should be doing
things the way Ubuntu does.  We're different for a reason.  I'm not saying
there isn't room for improvement: I'm sure there is.  But asking questions
is one thing.  Telling us we should be like Ubuntu is another.

-- 
  .''`. Stephen Powell
 : :'  :
 `. `'`
   `-

Re: wicd trouble [Solved]

[Glenn English]

> On Jul 31, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Brian  wrote:
> 
> A successful ping is an indication of association between interface and
> AP, although there would be other ways of determining this. It says
> little or nothing about the state of routing. Whatever is being pinged
> needn't have a route to the internet. Which argues for users filling in
> netmask and gateway for themselves and having something they can trust,
> rather than relying on some iffy wicd method.

Yeah. Their gateway and netmask 'calculations' do leave a little to be desired, 
even though they were correct in my case.

I spent some time with the source too, but I never saw the part where the 
gateway and netmask were determined. Without just getting those numbers from 
the user, they could be very wrong from their guessing; then they'd have built 
a bad routing table too. I wonder what they'd come up with on a 'real' network. 

I did see where one of the first things they do is clear the routing table. 
That would be another bad idea if there are more than the 2 entries. 

I'm on Wheezy/Jessie -- maybe these've been corrected in later versions.

> Glad you solved your issue, incidentally. Note that if this so-called
> verifying had been switched off it would never have occured. :)

Tell me about it :-)

If they'd been doing it everywhere it might have been easier to find. Or, of 
course, if I hadn't broken ping...

Thanks again for your help, Brian. You led me on some very interesting trips 
through the wicd outputs. I hope I might be of some help to another bewildered 
wicd user in the future -- I learned a lot.

-- 
Glenn English

Re: Which package should my bugreport concern?

[Charlie Kravetz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 15:41:48 +0200
Dimitri Chausson  wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I want to report a bug / strange behaviour I noticed since my last Debian OS 
>update, but I do not know from which package it originates. The symptoms are 
>visible in XFCE 's "workspace switcher".
>(http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/pager#workspace_switcher)
> Can you give me a matching package name please, or tell me how to find it out 
> ?
>
>Thanks a lot
>
>---
>Dimitri 
>

I would file it against xfce4. The Debian Maintainers will move it if
that is wrong. 

- -- 
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914
[http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]
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Re: Downloading and naming

[Joe]

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 10:59:44 +0200
"Brian Wengel"  wrote:

> I guess I wasn't cleardon't see my post as a wish or argument for
> larger image sizes or the like. Actually the smaller the better, I
> agree. I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase
> CD/DVD from their brian, and only focus on the technologies we use
> today and have used for many years.

Horses for courses.

I backed up my current encrypted laptop work partition to a DVD
yesterday. I make the partitions 4GB for that specific reason. I can
write a label on it. They cost less than 20p, or 25c US.

I have various USB sticks, a couple of which I carry in my wallet,
along with several micro-SD cards and that tiny Kingston USB card
reader. I use USB sticks for things other than plain files only when I
have to, as I've had all kinds of compatibility problems with them.
Even now, my main work stick invariably invokes a rude message from
Windows 8, offering to fix it, despite the fact that it seems to work
and is formatted FAT32.

> 
> Are we seriously discussing floppy images? :-P

No. I threw out my last tomsrtbt a few years ago, after many years of
sterling service. Now I carry a Knoppix DVD *and* a USB stick.

> 
> (and an apology to the list, I think it was a wrong place to target
> my post, as Mark pointed out)
> 

It is about Debian, we are Debian users.

-- 
Joe

Re: Downloading and naming

[Ric Moore]

On 07/31/2016 04:59 AM, Brian Wengel wrote:


I guess I wasn't cleardon't see my post as a wish or argument for
larger image sizes or the like. Actually the smaller the better, I
agree. I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase
CD/DVD from their brian, and only focus on the technologies we use
today and have used for many years.


Whoops, I tended to agree with your position until I read the word
"should". The use of "should" implies a moral high ground which, as a
new user, is a position you do not hold.

I still use CD's and DVD's as I find them convenient to store in a 3 
ring binder, all nice and flat in storage pages. I also have

 several USB sticks which work just fine as well.

I have never had a problem finding the iso's.
Try this, google search on:   download debian images
Click on the FIRST LINK
Select and download.
...and YOU wish to tell devel what to do??

gimmie a break, Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: wicd trouble [Solved]

[Brian]

On Sat 30 Jul 2016 at 17:21:47 -0600, ghe wrote:

> Fixing ping made everything all better again -- wicd verifies only on static
> wireless configs. There's a question in my mind why anyone would do that,
> but I'm sure it seemed like a good idea to the programmer.

A successful ping is an indication of association between interface and
AP, although there would be other ways of determining this. It says
little or nothing about the state of routing. Whatever is being pinged
needn't have a route to the internet. Which argues for users filling in
netmask and gateway for themselves and having something they can trust,
rather than relying on some iffy wicd method.

Glad you solved your issue, incidentally. Note that if this so-called
verifying had been switched off it would never have occured. :)

Re: wicd trouble -- continued

[Brian]

On Sat 30 Jul 2016 at 12:45:50 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Fri 29 Jul 2016 at 16:44:43 -0600, ghe wrote:
> 
> > When I set up a static IP, wicd fills in the net mask and the default router
> > automatically. I don't know where it gets the info, but the values and the
> > table are the same as the table on a known working, E'net host on the net
> > (sbox) built at boot from /e/n/i:
> 
> It was worth asking because the netmask and gateway can be edited from
> the values provided by wicd. It gets the netmask from the IP address. I
> do not know how it determines the gateway.

That was a bit of a guess about how wicd fills in the netmask field; I
had in mind it *computed" it from the IP address. Looking at netentry.py
in /usr/usr/share/wicd/gtk it appears its approach is less sophisticated.
An IP beginning with 172 get 255.240.0.0. 255.0.0.0 is allocated for IPs
eginning with 10. Everything else (including 192.168) gets 255.255.255.0.

The gateway IP is formed by adding .1 at the end. So you have the nice
situation that an interface IP of 192.168.7.1 (which could be valid) has
192.168.7.1 as a gateway. That will do wonders for getting out on the
internet! Wicd would indicate it has successfully connected (which it
sort of has) but it would be head scratching time.

Re: Downloading and naming

[limpia]

On 2016-07-31 08:32, Andre Majorel wrote:

On 2016-07-31 10:59 +0200, Brian Wengel wrote:


I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase
CD/DVD from their brian, and only focus on the technologies we
use today and have used for many years.


My main computer, the one on which I'm writing this, cannot boot
off USB. Installed Debian 8 on it about a year ago. Had to use a
netinst CD.

Not saying you don't have a point, just that it's easy to forget
how diverse the world of Debian users is. Even if most people
who install Linux do it on brand new PCs (which might or might
not be true), the notion that Debian should be catering to the
needs of "most people" is debatable. Even Ubuntu doesn't, since
Linux is not what most people run.

Again, I'm not against making it easier for people who install
from pen drives, just reacting to your declaration that optical
media can now be dispensed with.

 My first choice, if at all possible is to use CC/DVD for many
reasons.

<<<""I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase
CD/DVD from their brian, and only focus on the technologies we
use today and have used for many years."">>
  Who is we ? or do you mean "I" (you),
  I prefer and use the CD images, for live media, USB devices, are my 
last choice, and only if and when there is no other way.

 I solved the problems that can occur with USB pendrive, since
 so many of the modern laptops, do not have optical drives, and USB is 
the only way, and since that is not very reliable, I bought a

protable usb optical drive, so I could install, using a CD,..
 All though some modern technologies, are use full, and improvements, 
many are not,A good example is the most modern
computers,..which I refuse to purcahse, I prefer older , pre-UEFI, 
computers, and look for them, after getting rid of the windows mal-ware, 
and installing Debian, they work very well, much better
then most of the "shiny new" junk, the so called "technologoies YOU use 
today",  yes USB media, is use full as well,
But I personally any quite gratefull that the Debian developers, keep 
the better methods in mind, and keep using them.

-

Re: Downloading and naming

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 7/31/16, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>
> Brian Wengel wrote:
>> Are we seriously discussing floppy images? :-P
>
> As said, small is beautiful.


Oh, oh, ohh.. I went back to the thread to find a place for my
last thought. THIS is the place. I debootstrap my Debian in. On
locally provided dialup. Initial download size for a shiny, brand new
start I THINK is approximately in the mid-50's MB range.

That's floppy size IF it's a feasible option. My kneejerk is yes, it's
potentially feasible because I... although, hm... I don't know. I
place previously saved debootstrap deb files into each new debootstrap
copy's file hierarchy. The reason is because doing so saves a LOT of
time and strain on all affected servers (e.g. dialup, Debian, and
Debian repositories) It only helps some because there is always
something that needs a newer release pulled from online anyway.

Note: The rest of this rambles re personal experience with the end
point always being advocacy for Debian's potential as a Life enhancing
tool for vulnerable and/or poverty level populations..

Hm. I guess... I wonder (out loud) if providing necessary, time
appropriate debootstrap prerequisites on the floppy would help avoid
the need for online access to the updated debs at first. What I mean
is provide e.g. the necessary "lists" that match the provided deb
archives so the debootstrap command doesn't go looking for anything
more current online.

But then you still need dialup sooner than later... 20 minutes to a
half hour later is my regular experience when most initial deb archive
files are already previously downloaded. In that case, you might as
well just get your debootstrap fresh off the Net anyway so that you
receive the newest releases available. Yes, you could have the other
files on floppies but your lists are probably instantly more current
than those so there you head back to online access again...

The words "very messy alternative" come to mind... :D

Yes, debootstrap just gets your foot in the Debian front door, but
still, you're in. The rest you hand pick and choose.. for EVERYTHING
per user personality and need. Most of the rest you pull in would take
a pile of floppies, but *is* still there as a thought.

Right offhand I can't think of anything that is too big for a floppy
of its own. My (very bloated) /var/cache/apt/archives shows browsers
as the largest deb files at ~49MB. Of course, we're talking about...
hundreds to thousands of files that are updated regularly so... that
equates to a humongous stack of floppies that literally become
outdated at the very moment current files are being copied on to them.

My first copy of Debian was that stack of some, what was it, 31 CDs or
so. 33? GRIN. Put that up against floppies and ouch, BUT.. somewhere
that could become a Life saving tool... Speaking firsthand.

Who knows... Not joking here. Somewhere maybe there's a town full of
people looking for just such a thing in a country where outdated
dinosaur computer hardware is dumped as garbage fill from other
countries.

Where it could help... I have a few international Facebook friends.
Just last night I "overheard" something about another country. It's
left a permanent firsthand reminder that there ARE countries out there
where folks in charge... are absolute control freaks over every aspect
of citizens' lives. Getting communication related technology into the
hands of those citizens via whatever hardware is already in their
reach helps start flipping the balance in their favor.

Back to debootstrap... For each shiny new debootstrap copy I do, total
initial download time (for me) on dialup is in the one day range. That
brings in things like kernel image, desktop environment, OpenShot,
Libreoffice, GIMP, Inkscape, browsers, and a limited number of system
tools.

If I wasn't using Sid Unstable, keeping up to date would be a breeze
after that initial one day's worth of time investment. My very
limited, "skeletal" debootstrap'ed copy is still highly maintainable
and regularly reflects "0" packages needing upgraded even on Sid
Unstable's extreme update schedule and even on dialup.

Deboostrap is very much a poverty level friendly option if anyone's
advocacy and activities put you on a path where you could help change
someone's Life via access to Debian. In fact, debootstrap is an abject
poverty level friendly option. Absolute bottom of the social monetary
barrel, and I can still keep up with developers at the speed of
updates that make up Sid Unstable. Just waiting on a $9.25 external,
hardware driven dialup modem to hit my snail mailbox to catch back up
to speed with you all.. :)

Cindy :)

-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with plastic sporks *

Re: Downloading and naming

[David Wright]

On Sun 31 Jul 2016 at 10:59:44 (+0200), Brian Wengel wrote:
> I guess I wasn't cleardon't see my post as a wish or argument for larger 
> image sizes or the like. 
> Actually the smaller the better, I agree. 
> I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase CD/DVD from their 
> brian, and only focus on the technologies we use today and have used for many 
> years.

If you're going to use words like "erase" and "only", then I think you
should go back to https://www.debian.org/ and read the banner:

  Debian
The universal operating system

> Are we seriously discussing floppy images? :-P

A textbook Straw Man argument.

Cheers,
David.

Which package should my bugreport concern?

[Dimitri Chausson]

Hi,

I want to report a bug / strange behaviour I noticed since my last Debian OS 
update, but I do not know from which package it originates. The symptoms are 
visible in XFCE 's "workspace switcher".
(http://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-panel/pager#workspace_switcher)
 Can you give me a matching package name please, or tell me how to find it out ?

Thanks a lot

---
Dimitri 

Re: Downloading and naming

[Erwan David]

Le 31/07/2016 à 15:32, Andre Majorel a écrit :
> On 2016-07-31 10:59 +0200, Brian Wengel wrote:
>
>> I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase
>> CD/DVD from their brian, and only focus on the technologies we
>> use today and have used for many years.
> My main computer, the one on which I'm writing this, cannot boot
> off USB. Installed Debian 8 on it about a year ago. Had to use a
> netinst CD.
>
> Not saying you don't have a point, just that it's easy to forget
> how diverse the world of Debian users is. Even if most people
> who install Linux do it on brand new PCs (which might or might
> not be true), the notion that Debian should be catering to the
> needs of "most people" is debatable. Even Ubuntu doesn't, since
> Linux is not what most people run.
>
> Again, I'm not against making it easier for people who install
> from pen drives, just reacting to your declaration that optical
> media can now be dispensed with.
>
And debian iso images can bve used on a USB key.

Re: Downloading and naming

[Andre Majorel]

On 2016-07-31 10:59 +0200, Brian Wengel wrote:

> I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase
> CD/DVD from their brian, and only focus on the technologies we
> use today and have used for many years.

My main computer, the one on which I'm writing this, cannot boot
off USB. Installed Debian 8 on it about a year ago. Had to use a
netinst CD.

Not saying you don't have a point, just that it's easy to forget
how diverse the world of Debian users is. Even if most people
who install Linux do it on brand new PCs (which might or might
not be true), the notion that Debian should be catering to the
needs of "most people" is debatable. Even Ubuntu doesn't, since
Linux is not what most people run.

Again, I'm not against making it easier for people who install
from pen drives, just reacting to your declaration that optical
media can now be dispensed with.

-- 
André Majorel 
Think of all the spam you'd be getting if the Debian project
published your email address ! Aren't you glad they don't ?

Re: Bash command completion

[David]

On 7 July 2016 at 08:06, Lisi Reisz  wrote:
>
> So have you followed the suggestion to test whether it is in fact bash that
> you are in fact using?
>
> lisi@Tux-II:~$ echo $SHELL
> /bin/bash
> lisi@Tux-II:~$

In case anyone is unaware, it might be generally helpful to clarify what
this test actually does.

Here's a demo on my system:
# my login shell is bash:
[david@kablamm]$ echo $SHELL
/bin/bash
# now I run dash
[david@kablamm]$ dash
# now repeat the above test, inside dash:
$ echo $SHELL
/bin/bash
$
# and now I type ^D to return to the login bash
[david@kablamm]$

Which demonstrates that $SHELL does not report the running shell.
It reports the user's login shell. Which might be different to whatever
shell the echo command happens to be typed into.

$SHELL is not controlled by the running shell. It is supplied to it in
its runtime environment.

$SHELL is set by 'login' process and exported to child processes.
It is set to the value specified in /etc/passwd. This is mentioned
in 'man 1 login'.

Many shells are not capable of identifying themselves directly.
bash can do it like this:
[david@kablamm]$ echo $BASH_VERSION
Neither sh nor dash have this capability.

Re: Downloading and naming

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 7/31/16, Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> On Sunday 31 July 2016 09:59:44 Brian Wengel wrote:
>> I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase CD/DVD from
>> their brian, and only focus on the technologies we use today and have
>> used
>> for many years.
>
> I'm glad that you are rich and live in a rich country.  Many aren't and
> don't.
> In world terms most still use old computers.  Many computers still in every
>
> day use will not boot from USB, and even when they will do so, USB can be
> very problematic.


Lisi saved me some writing there. Not only will some systems not boot
from USB, some still in active operation today don't even have USB
capability period. This Hewlett Packard I'm on, ze5375us, is how I
know that. By the way, it *does* have DVD capability.

Many of the Linux derivatives out there are a Life enhancing, Life
enriching, Life saving tool for people at poverty level. I know this
firsthand, also, from an *abject* poverty level viewpoint. If those of
us at poverty level can afford a computer at all, it's the kind that
secondhand stores sell for $25, $30, or so with a release date circa
the dinosaur ages of 2000-2004.

And yes, albeit on much rarer occasion the last couple years, those
purchased at that price actually do still come with floppy capability.
I can't remember where I saw it in the last approximate month or so
(Newegg 3rd party vendor, maybe?) but someone is/was still actively
selling floppy drives for those machines. People don't waste limited,
valuable Life energies on something that is not being sought
after.


> Debian's strength is that it allows the use of old technology and smaller
> boxen.  Have you tried to install Ubuntu on a Raspberry Pi A?  Oh, you
> probably don't want to.  But many do.  Horses for courses.  If you prefer
> Ubuntu and its ways, use Ubuntu.  If you have decided that you prefer
> Debian,
> for whatever reason, great.  And yes, the website could do with some
> tidying.
> Debian hasn't got a millionaire paying for web-designers.   But don't try to
>
> make Debian copy Ubuntu.


Debian became my sought after primary operating system because of THAT
particular "other" distribution. If Debian started feeling like THAT
particular "other'" distribution, I would immediately be looking
elsewhere for a replacement.

That particular "other" distro causes me to literally, physically
"shudder" at any mention of it k/t a devastating Aptitude related
collapse of that distro on a primary computer. I *will* disclaim that
I was a much newer user of all things Linux at the time so that played
its part in the experience.

Several years later, though, that total operating experience was so
horrific back then that I still have no intentions of ever going back,
even for momentary historical funnsies. Keyword there would be...
limited, valuable Life energies. :)

Debian... overtly going the route of looking and acting like any
and/or all other distributions out there? I'm experiencing that on a
browser level basis right now. I downloaded a browser thinking I was
getting something unique, something different from, more "fun" than
all the rest like it used to be years ago. Instead it's so much like
other browsers now that I have to keep looking for the logo to verify
which one I'm using.

The word "disappointed" doesn't begin to cover this recent browser
experience. *OMG, GACK!* is about what I thought the first few times I
fired this one up. These days the word "mundane" pretty much fits the
experience... :)

PS To not totally disparage this now "mundane" browser, it *did*
accomplish a desperately needed financial security related task that
other browsers were not fulfilling. And this is (was?) a current
version whereas only older, archived releases of other browsers were
functioning on the dinosaur "still other" operating system I got
forced into a few weeks back. Variety... *_CHOICE_*... One size does
not fit all... yada-yada.. :)

Cindy :)

-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with plastic sporks *

Re: Downloading and naming

[rhkramer]

On Sunday, July 31, 2016 04:14:37 AM Mark Fletcher wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 at 08:49, Brian Wengel  wrote:

...

> > I’m not saying the images should not be DVD compatible, but make the USB
> > the primary media in guides/naming etc….and perhaps make a link at the
> > bottom of the download page(s) saying  “Are you using DVD media, read
> > *here*” if that need some extra guidance.….don’t let the vast majority be
> > bothered with it…..just my opinion.

...

> You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but why are you telling us?
> 
> Who, exactly, do you think you are talking to on this email list? (Clue:
> the name should be a giveaway)


I'm not the OP, but to the contrary of Mark's opinion, I think it is very 
appropriate that Brian has posted here--this subject, involving a potential 
change to Debian that would affect users, should be discussed among users 
before being implemented.  

And I note that discussion / debate is occurring, based on the other responses 
in this thread.

Re: Downloading and naming

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 31 July 2016 09:59:44 Brian Wengel wrote:
> I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase CD/DVD from
> their brian, and only focus on the technologies we use today and have used
> for many years.

I'm glad that you are rich and live in a rich country.  Many aren't and don't.  
In world terms most still use old computers.  Many computers still in every 
day use will not boot from USB, and even when they will do so, USB can be 
very problematic.

Debian's strength is that it allows the use of old technology and smaller 
boxen.  Have you tried to install Ubuntu on a Raspberry Pi A?  Oh, you 
probably don't want to.  But many do.  Horses for courses.  If you prefer 
Ubuntu and its ways, use Ubuntu.  If you have decided that you prefer Debian, 
for whatever reason, great.  And yes, the website could do with some tidying. 
Debian hasn't got a millionaire paying for web-designers.   But don't try to 
make Debian copy Ubuntu.

YOU like USB.  I agree that the Debian web-site is a maze, but disagree 
strongly that DVD and CD should be erased.

Incidentally, I have just been to the Ubuntu site as you suggested.  Mostly it 
just says "image".  But where it specifies it says:

our regional ***DVD*** image mirrors

 (my stars)
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/alternative-downloads

I personally actually find the whole Ubuntu installation business a nightmare 
unless you have a brand new, totally up-to-date, probably expensive, 
computer.  Then it is O.K.

Re: Downloading and naming

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 31 July 2016 08:46:36 Brian Wengel wrote:
> Dear Debian community
>
> Maybe it’s just me, but as a rather new-comer to the Debian world a few
> things puzzles me.
>
> 1: Going to the download section is like being taken 15 years back. Isn’t
> it time to take the step to move away from the CD/DVD media and move into
> the USB Flash drive arena?

Debian has been ther for years.  Its images now, I believe, are all 
isohybrids.

> I know the CD/DVD images also work on USB but maybe it’s time to actually
> stop calling it CD/DVD images? And I also see you can download 640MB
> imageswhere’s the floppy images? (sorry for my sarcasm ). I mean I just
> bought a 8GB USB flash drive for less than 5$!

Hey!!  That is one of Debian's great strengths.  Some of us love it.  You 
don't.  Fine.  Don't use it.  But don't try to deprive those of us who do.  
What has the price of USB sticks got to do with it?  Even in Holland you have 
people with slower internet connections.
>
> I’m not saying the images should not be DVD compatible, but make the USB
> the primary media in guides/naming etc….and perhaps make a link at the
> bottom of the download page(s) saying  “Are you using DVD media, read
> *here*” if that need some extra guidance.….don’t let the vast majority be
> bothered with it…..just my opinion.

With which I again disagree.  How about just making it clearer that they are 
iso-hybrid images?  As distinct from Ubuntu (which you quote) which is in my 
NSHO a pain to put on a USB stick.
>
> 2: I find it rather difficult and troublesome to find the image you want.
> When going to Debian.org it takes a long time to find your image. 

That is true.  One of the developers recently raised a bug on it.  I don't 
know whether anything is in progress.

> You have 
> to go true several pages, reading a lot of text and doing  a lot of
> mouse-clicking.
> Try to go to www.ubuntu.com and compare the download process?

Ouch!!  Give me Debian any day.

> .I think 
> you’ve made it exceptional complex. Yes, you might support more image
> options, but still!
> And calling it CD/DVD images isn’t helping either….when you’re sitting with
> a flash drive in your hand, as I believe the majority do.

No, you do.  Many do.  Many don't.  But it would certainly help to call them 
isohybrids and to make it easier to find things.  My own gripe is that it is 
so difficult to find the check sums.  

Lisi
>
> Best regards
> Brian, Denmark

Re: Downloading and naming

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Brian Wengel wrote:
> Are we seriously discussing floppy images? :-P

As said, small is beautiful.


> I think it was a wrong place to target my post,
> as Mark pointed out

debian-cd mailing list would be my guess.
Nevertheless, it's much of a user related topic, too.


> The debian developers should erase CD/DVD from
> their brian

What kind of re-wording do you have in mind ?
I agree from a technical point of view that "CD/DVD" is wrong since the
isohybrid feature was added, Blu-ray media became popular, and non-x86
hardware architectures are supported by Debian.

The images are actually ISO 9660 filesystems with boot information
for the particular architectures' firmwares. Rock Ridge extensions
are present to let the booting Linux kernel work with long case-sensitive
filenames.

The distinction between optical drives and hard disk drives exists because
20 years ago IBM and others agreed on ISO 9660 and El Torito boot sectors
for CD-ROM. Originally this was kindof a superset which should offer
several virtual floppies (hehe) or hard disks to boot the CD-ROM on x86,
PowerPC, and Mac.
PowerPC and Mac soon switched to hard-disk-ish boot sectors on CD, but
x86 staid with El Torito and Intel later added a second firmware for its
hardware: EFI. It prescribes to boot from optical media via El Torito.
On hard-disk-ish media it boots via an MBR partition or a GPT partition.

Debian "netinst" ISOs for i386 or amd64 offer the boot information which
BIOS and EFI expect on optical media and on hard-disk-like devices.
Firmwares of some other Debian arches probably make few difference between
booting from CD-ROM and from hard disk. But i know that arm64 has EFI
and thus distinguishes like amd64.

Needed would be a common name for this family of things.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

RE: Downloading and naming

[Brian Wengel]

I guess I wasn't cleardon't see my post as a wish or argument for larger 
image sizes or the like. 
Actually the smaller the better, I agree. 
I'm talking about media. The debian developers should erase CD/DVD from their 
brian, and only focus on the technologies we use today and have used for many 
years.

Are we seriously discussing floppy images? :-P

(and an apology to the list, I think it was a wrong place to target my post, as 
Mark pointed out)

/Brian

-Original Message-
From: Thomas Schmitt [mailto:scdbac...@gmx.net] 
Sent: 31. juli 2016 10:42
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Downloading and naming

Hi,

Brian Wengel wrote:
> I know the CD/DVD images also work on USB but maybe it’s time to 
> actually stop calling it CD/DVD images?

"CD/DVD/BD/WholeDisk" images ?

The feature to boot from USB stick is not bound to USB but rather to the 
perception of the booting firmware and kernel, that the device is some kind of 
hard-disk-like device. From Linux view: /dev/sd rather than /dev/sr.


> where’s the floppy images? 

The bootloaders got too fat and the floppies you can buy now are of poor 
quality.


> And I also see you can download 640MB images

Small is beautiful. Small is fast.
The "netinst" images have about 300 MiB and there are some "mini.iso"
which have about 32 MiB. (I still bemoan the demise of "businesscard".)


> I mean I just bought a 8GB USB flash drive for less than 5$!

There is the recurrent wish on debian-cd mailing list to provide images in 
popular USB stick sizes. Especially desired is the all-in-one image for 128 GiB 
sticks.


> I find it rather difficult and troublesome to find the image you want.

I dimly remember to have seen mails about an overhaul of download presentation. 
I thought they were from debian-cd but cannot find them in the archives there.
Feedback would probably be welcome ... 

Maybe it's already public as
  https://www.debian.org/distrib/
which interestingly hides the flat download opportunity of large ISOs and the 
Jigdo download opportunity in favor of BitTorrent. (Oldfashioned bosses 
associate BitTorrent with piracy of music and videos.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Downloading and naming

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Brian Wengel wrote:
> I know the CD/DVD images also work on USB but maybe it’s time to actually
> stop calling it CD/DVD images?

"CD/DVD/BD/WholeDisk" images ?

The feature to boot from USB stick is not bound to USB but rather to the
perception of the booting firmware and kernel, that the device is some
kind of hard-disk-like device. From Linux view: /dev/sd rather than /dev/sr.


> where’s the floppy images? 

The bootloaders got too fat and the floppies you can buy now are of
poor quality.


> And I also see you can download 640MB images

Small is beautiful. Small is fast.
The "netinst" images have about 300 MiB and there are some "mini.iso"
which have about 32 MiB. (I still bemoan the demise of "businesscard".)


> I mean I just bought a 8GB USB flash drive for less than 5$!

There is the recurrent wish on debian-cd mailing list to provide images
in popular USB stick sizes. Especially desired is the all-in-one image
for 128 GiB sticks.


> I find it rather difficult and troublesome to find the image you want.

I dimly remember to have seen mails about an overhaul of download
presentation. I thought they were from debian-cd but cannot find them in
the archives there.
Feedback would probably be welcome ... 

Maybe it's already public as
  https://www.debian.org/distrib/
which interestingly hides the flat download opportunity of large ISOs
and the Jigdo download opportunity in favor of BitTorrent. (Oldfashioned
bosses associate BitTorrent with piracy of music and videos.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Downloading and naming

[Mark Fletcher]

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 at 08:49, Brian Wengel  wrote:

> Dear Debian community
>
> Maybe it’s just me, but as a rather new-comer to the Debian world a few
> things puzzles me.
>
> 1: Going to the download section is like being taken 15 years back. Isn’t
> it time to take the step to move away from the CD/DVD media and move into
> the USB Flash drive arena?
> I know the CD/DVD images also work on USB but maybe it’s time to actually
> stop calling it CD/DVD images? And I also see you can download 640MB
> imageswhere’s the floppy images? (sorry for my sarcasm ). I mean I just
> bought a 8GB USB flash drive for less than 5$!
>
> I’m not saying the images should not be DVD compatible, but make the USB
> the primary media in guides/naming etc….and perhaps make a link at the
> bottom of the download page(s) saying  “Are you using DVD media, read
> *here*” if that need some extra guidance.….don’t let the vast majority be
> bothered with it…..just my opinion.
>
> 2: I find it rather difficult and troublesome to find the image you want.
> When going to Debian.org it takes a long time to find your image. You have
> to go true several pages, reading a lot of text and doing  a lot of
> mouse-clicking.
> Try to go to www.ubuntu.com and compare the download process?….I think
> you’ve made it exceptional complex. Yes, you might support more image
> options, but still!
> And calling it CD/DVD images isn’t helping either….when you’re sitting
> with a flash drive in your hand, as I believe the majority do.
>
> Best regards
> Brian, Denmark
>
> You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but why are you telling us?
Who, exactly, do you think you are talking to on this email list? (Clue:
the name should be a giveaway)

Mark

Downloading and naming

[Brian Wengel]

Dear Debian community

Maybe it’s just me, but as a rather new-comer to the Debian world a few
things puzzles me.

1: Going to the download section is like being taken 15 years back. Isn’t
it time to take the step to move away from the CD/DVD media and move into
the USB Flash drive arena?
I know the CD/DVD images also work on USB but maybe it’s time to actually
stop calling it CD/DVD images? And I also see you can download 640MB
imageswhere’s the floppy images? (sorry for my sarcasm ). I mean I just
bought a 8GB USB flash drive for less than 5$!

I’m not saying the images should not be DVD compatible, but make the USB
the primary media in guides/naming etc….and perhaps make a link at the
bottom of the download page(s) saying  “Are you using DVD media, read *here*”
if that need some extra guidance.….don’t let the vast majority be bothered
with it…..just my opinion.

2: I find it rather difficult and troublesome to find the image you want.
When going to Debian.org it takes a long time to find your image. You have
to go true several pages, reading a lot of text and doing  a lot of
mouse-clicking.
Try to go to www.ubuntu.com and compare the download process?….I think
you’ve made it exceptional complex. Yes, you might support more image
options, but still!
And calling it CD/DVD images isn’t helping either….when you’re sitting with
a flash drive in your hand, as I believe the majority do.

Best regards
Brian, Denmark