Re: HS: iptables interface de sortie par la même que l'entrée.

[Jérémy Prego]

Le 17/04/2019 à 07:27, Pascal Hambourg a écrit :
> Le 16/04/2019 à 18:44, Jérémy Prego a écrit :
>>
>> j'ai testé ça qui ne fonctionne pas non plus:
>> iptables -t mangle -D ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -m conntrack
>> --ctstate NEW -j CONNMARK --set-mark 0x1
>> iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -j CONNMARK
>> --restore-markc
>
> Je suppose que -D et --restore-markc sont des erreurs de copier-coller ?
oui

> Qu'est-ce qui se passe exactement ?
>

ça ne sort pas du tout ... c'est pour ça que j'aimerai bien un peu
d'aide sur les règles a appliquer vraiment pour comprendre parce que là
je patauge vraiment. j'ai aucune idée de ce qu'est une bonne règle dans
ce cas précis.

Jerem

Re: Stretch with MATE DE - odd new file association problem

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 17.04.2019 8:51, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 01:15:07PM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
>> On 16.04.2019 12:08, Andy Smith wrote:
>>> I don't have seamonkey installed so haven't tried myself, but does
>>> it even run as root?
>>>
>> I don't use SeaMonkey either, but I'm pretty sure it does not need root
>> privileges to run. :)
> My point is that the OP is asking why, when they click a link from
> within a GUI app that is running as root (synaptic), the wrong
> browser is launched. So what I am asking is, once the correct
> browser is set up via alternatives, isn't it going to launch
> seamonkey as root?
I was pretty sure it isn't gonna run browser as root. Because it is
pretty silly mistake from a developer standpoint.
Let's double check:
    $ sudo ps aux | egrep "x-www-browser|synaptic"
    amak 2344 0.0 0.0 4280 744 ? S 10:08 0:00 /bin/sh
/usr/bin/synaptic-pkexec
    root 2345 0.6 0.8 557104 142048 ? Sl 10:08 0:02 /usr/sbin/synaptic
    amak 2378 1.1 1.4 2121228 244576 ? Sl 10:09 0:03
/usr/bin/x-www-browser http://0install.net/

It looks like Synaptic starts with user privileges as a wrapper and
PolicyKit asks for root privileges to spawn actual synaptic process.
So Synaptic's UI and every process (e.g. x-www-browser) it spawns later
will run with user privileges.
Special actions, like package installation or removal, will be forwarded
to real synaptic process which is running as root.
>
> Further implication being, it is good to learn about the
> alternatives system, but maybe not a great idea to solve this
> problem this way.
There is no other sane way, I think. Synaptic will execute
"x-www-browser " so this symlink has to point to actual browser
and to manage those symlinks in a convenient and controllable way, you
should use "update-alternatives".
Of course, you can do the same thing by hand, but then you have to
remember and keep track of all changes to your "/bin", "/usr/bin", etc,
so you won't break anything later.


-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: Liste des fabricants de portable qui ne mettent pas de whitelist

[Benoit B]

Merci pour ta réponse je rechercher là.
J'ai aussi cherché sur https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn mais
le wifi est rarement fonctionnel en libre.

Une autre solution que j'ai testée sur mon portable actuel serait de
simplement changer le composant wifi...
Mais mon ordi n'a pas été plus loin que le Power-on self-test.
Impossible de le démarrer tant que le composant s'y trouvait.
Il semblerait que certains fabricants mettent des whitelist dans le bios...
Existe-il une liste des fabricants de portable qui ne mettent pas de
whitelist ? ;)

Merci d'avance

--
Benoit

Le mar. 16 avr. 2019 à 22:58, F. Dubois  a écrit :
>
> Le 16/04/2019 à 22:41, Benoit B a écrit :
> > Bonjour
> >
> > Tout est dans le titre...
> > Avant d'acheter un ordinateur portable,comment par exemple, vérifier
> > que le wifi va fonctionner avec des pilotes/firmwares libres ?
> >
> > Existe-t-il un site ou on peut rechercher un composant et vérifier son
> > bon fonctionnement ?
> >
> > Merci d'avance.
> >
> > Benoit
> >
> Bonsoir, déjà pour le wifi.
>
> https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/welcome
>
> http://linuxwireless.sipsolutions.net/
>
> Après suffit de choisir la/les machine/s potentielles et chercher la
> compatibilité des différents sous-systèmes selon les composants.
>
> N'importe quel moteur de recherche (https://duckduckgo.com/ par exemple)
> donne plein de réponses (in english it's better and more up to date of
> course)
>
> Fabien
>

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Reco]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 01:14:36AM +0200, Peter Wiersig wrote:
> Reco  writes:
> 
> Hi Reco,
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:39:32PM +0200, Peter Wiersig wrote:
> >> VSZ is the Virtual Memory Size. (...),
> >>including memory that is swapped out,
> >> memory that is allocated, but not used,
>   
> >> and memory that is from shared libraries.""
> >
> > Given this:
> >
> > == cut ==
> >
> > One can expect the process to "consume" 4Gb of VSZ, and about 700kb of
> > RSS.
> >
> > Do you really suggest to treat all this VSZ as a "used memory"? A hint -
> > compile the sample, run it a hundred times.
> 
> No, but that is all in the explanation above albeit tersely. I
> underlined the part which comes into play with your example code.

That was the whole point. If it's allocated, but ain't used - one should
not account it.


> If Martin wants to find out what's using his memory during timespans
> with degraded performance, it will not be helpful to list the processes
> and sort by thenot swapped amount.

To quote the original e-mail:

root@rad-m2m-srv02:~# free -thwl
  totalusedfree  shared buffers cache   
available
Mem:   987M910M 59M  0B704K 16M 
13M
Low:   987M927M 59M
High:0B  0B  0B
Swap:  2,0G345M1,7G
Total: 3,0G1,2G1,7G

root@rad-m2m-srv02:~# smem -uktr
User Count Swap  USS  PSS  RSS
root39   332.8M10.4M12.4M44.7M
msch 6 7.0M0   607.0K 8.3M
_chrony  1   360.0K 4.0K20.0K   572.0K
messagebus 1   580.0K 4.0K17.0K   480.0K
postfix  2 1.6M013.0K   568.0K
daemon   1   208.0K 4.0K 6.0K72.0K
---
50   342.5M10.4M13.0M54.7M

A host has 1Gb of RAM and 3Gb swap.
Both "free" and "/proc/meminfo" show that there's no free memory left.
"smem" output shows us that this memory ain't used by userspace.
The question was - where all this memory has gone?


> If the system is thrashing due to swapping in and out, I always look
> at the VSZ values to find out where I should direct my attention to.

Thanks for sharing. In this particular case, swapping is a consequence,
not a root cause.
But, just in case, how exactly your method is superior to "top -o SWAP"?

Reco

Re: HS: iptables interface de sortie par la même que l'entrée.

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 16/04/2019 à 18:44, Jérémy Prego a écrit :


j'ai testé ça qui ne fonctionne pas non plus:
iptables -t mangle -D ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -m conntrack
--ctstate NEW -j CONNMARK --set-mark 0x1
iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -j CONNMARK
--restore-markc


Je suppose que -D et --restore-markc sont des erreurs de copier-coller ?
Qu'est-ce qui se passe exactement ?

RE: Conforme sua solicitação...

[atendimento]

Olá tudo bem?
Meu nome é Luiz Felipe e encontrei este contato no seu site.
Faço parte da equipe Hangar D e oferecemos um trabalho de manutenção e suporte 
para sites.
Você já quis trocar o banner do seu site ou até mesmo atualizar o layout dele? 
Se sim provavelmente teve dificuldades para isso.Pensando nisso desenvolvemos 
um pacote especial para micro e pequenas empresas de suporte e manutenção de 
sites, e-mails e servidores.
Confira neste link.Qualquer dúvida entre em contato conosco.Atenciosamente,Luiz 
Felipe.

Re: A call to drop gnome as the default desktop

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 17/4/19 3:53 am, Matthew Crews wrote:

As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
doesn't really matter in the end.

I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
good enough IMO.

On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
I brought it up.


I'll address these in reverse order, hoping to make the responses make 
some sense.


Let me say only that I used a couple of snips from the synaptic 
discussion as support for my own thoughts about gnome not being free 
software - in the sense that they seem to want to control how we use our 
monitors.


I see the point that people who like gnome should be allowed to use it - 
so withdraw the drop gnome from debian.  I believe the change to the 
subject line will keep the discussion together. I'll re-send if it opens 
a new topic.



Perhaps gnome can be available as a live distro and in the repo - 
without being an option on the netInstall.iso  I accept that gnome is 
popular, and figured that by seeking to drop it, I am trying to remove 
their freedom to use it.



--
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

RE: just mail forwarding to smart mailer

[Bonno Bloksma]

Hi,

>> > I am looking for an "easy light weight just empty the local queue 
>> > and very very very easy thing: https://wiki.debian.org/sSMTP
>
> Note that sSMTP does not perform server certificate verification, thus 
> allowing, e.g., credential stealing via MITM attacks. Furthermore, it 
> neglects to document this failing, although we're working on this ;)
>

That is not a problem for me, all mail traffic will be inside out own LAN.
The wiki has very little info. Like, if it is not a daemon then how does the 
mail even leave the system? When will the program become active to send the 
mail to the smarthost?
Where can I find more info? It seems this might be my lightweight solution. 
Using Google for ssmtp gives mostly links to secure smtp.

Bonno Bloksma

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 17/4/19 12:06 am, Reco wrote:

They write and distribute free (as in freedom) software. It's popular,
whenever it's due to the design or in spite of it.


I happened across this a Wikipedia while clarifying another comment here:
<<
GNOME 3 is the default desktop environment on many major Linux 
distributions including Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE Linux Enterprise 
(exclusively), Red Hat Enterprise Linux, CentOS, Oracle Linux, 
Scientific Linux, SteamOS, Tails, Kali Linux, Antergos and Endless OS; 
it is also default on Solaris, a major Unix operating system. Also, the 
continued fork of the last GNOME 2 release that goes under the name MATE 
is default on many distributions that targets low usage of system 
resources.

>>
If so many distro's ship with gnome as default, no wonder it is popular.


I also think there is something odd (perhaps ironic?) that my preferred 
desktop is Mate - when I am protesting the desktop that is/was related 
to Mate so closely.



As somebody said - things change.


--
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 16/4/19 9:01 pm, Reco wrote:



And for those there should be at least a good document about doing
it.

Agreed.


+1 - as long as somebody with a good dollop of Asperger syndrome can 
interpret it.


--
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

Re: Stretch with MATE DE - odd new file association problem

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 01:15:07PM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> On 16.04.2019 12:08, Andy Smith wrote:
> > I don't have seamonkey installed so haven't tried myself, but does
> > it even run as root?
> >
> I don't use SeaMonkey either, but I'm pretty sure it does not need root
> privileges to run. :)

My point is that the OP is asking why, when they click a link from
within a GUI app that is running as root (synaptic), the wrong
browser is launched. So what I am asking is, once the correct
browser is set up via alternatives, isn't it going to launch
seamonkey as root?

Further implication being, it is good to learn about the
alternatives system, but maybe not a great idea to solve this
problem this way.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 16/4/19 8:38 pm, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:

I say this is NOT freedom.

R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
R> welcome.

Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo dialect?"

That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought, then
you have to understando how the program works and how to change
it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.

Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it. But there are
other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who knows, time and
wishing nevertheless that some option was available, say, running
WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons. And for those there should be at
least a good document about doing it. And not leaving them being
forced to do something like a "triple backward sommersault" for doing
these changes.

This is more a "distribution level" choice, like "install Debian
Desktop something like a (better and improved) 1999 machine", at
least with the configuration working the old way.

It is not easy, it requires resources too. But these are my two cents.



Come on - I claimed 2 bob. You must be worth more


I fall right into that description - no way could I construct a patch. I 
buckled at the knees when I found that I could edit CSS code to achieve 
the tool-bar at the side.


I tried java about 15 years ago, and failed miserably. Perhaps a bad 
choice, but what the Uni course I was trying to get into required. I can 
write a script and alias's in .bashrc, the odd macro in Calc. I keep 
telling my friends it's never too late to learn, but at 71, I figure I 
can serenely claim that's enough.



--
Keith Bainbridge

ke1th3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

Re: is xdvi broken?

[rlharris]

On 2019.04.16 19:21, Kushal Kumaran wrote:

Do you have some kind of live-preview configuration?  It's been a while
since I did LaTeX, but I remember latex-mode had some configuration 
that

allows to to continuously run (pdf)latex and keep a previewer running.
I think the latexmk command does something similar.  See if you have an
instance of that running in the background somewhere.


Yes; I was running latexmk.  With the -pvc option the situation was 
intolerable:


latexmk -pvc -dvi -pdf mydocument.tex

That is why I closed the xdvi window, but quickly discovered that the 
process which calls xdvi still was running.  Restarting the computer 
solved the problem.  I did not try simply restarting xfce.


A month ago I was using latexmk with the same options on this machine.  
I seem to recall an occasional jump back to the xdvi window, but not the 
constant jumping back I was seeing today.  So I think that the new 
Cherry keyboard must be the culprit.

Re: Accessing a host with variable IP addresses / connection types

[Celejar]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:45:05 +1200
Richard Hector  wrote:

> On 17/04/19 3:03 AM, Celejar wrote:

...

> > What I seem to want (but maybe XY?) is some way to adjust the host
> > files (or dnsmasq's information) so that the hostname will resolve to
> > the LAN address when the laptop is connected to the LAN, and the VPN
> > address when it's connected via VPN. If everything was using DHCP, this
> > would be straightforward enough, but as I said, the VPN apparently
> > needs to be configured statically, and not via DHCP. I could obviously
> > use some custom script (using, say, ageas, to modify host files) but
> > this seems hackish. What is a standard, 'correct' way to do this, or
> > more generally, to enable the LAN hosts to access the laptop
> > seamlessly regardless of its IP address and connection type?
> 
> What about connecting to the VPN even from the LAN? So the VPN address
> is always available.

I suppose that's an option, but it just seems so terribly inefficient,
although I suppose that I likely wouldn't even notice during normal work.

> Another thought I've had in the past, but probably won't work in this
> case (because one of the locations is on the same side of the router as
> the other machines) is to give the laptop its own block (on the loopback
> or maybe a dummy device), and adjust the routing tables (which the
> wireguard server will probably do).

Thanks,

Celejar

Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Richard Hector]

On 17/04/19 6:19 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> GTK
>   * listaller
>   * synaptic (but not in Buster)

Just looked up listaller.

It seems to be
 * not in buster
 * only on arm64?
 * an installer for its own kind of packages, not debs.

That's just from reading its page on packages.debian.org. Further
reading suggests maybe it can do other package types as well, but that's
not its core purpose?

Richard



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Re: Accessing a host with variable IP addresses / connection types

[Richard Hector]

On 17/04/19 3:03 AM, Celejar wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've been bedeviled by this question for a while, but have been unable
> to figure out a clean, non-hackish solution. It may be an XY problem ...
> 
> I have a system (laptop, running Debian) that is sometimes connected
> directly to my LAN, and sometimes connected via VPN (wireguard, to the
> local router, running OpenWrt). The LAN is 192.168.0.0/24, with the
> laptop having a fixed, static address in that range (although I'm
> certainly open to using DHCP, possibly with a fixed address
> reservation). The VPN is 10.0.0.0/24, with the laptop getting a fixed,
> static address in that range (and wireguard apparently doesn't work
> with dhcp).
> 
> I currently have an entry in /etc/hosts on the various LAN hosts
> assigning a hostname to the laptop's fixed local address, and the LAN
> hosts can access the laptop via that hostname. [I could alternatively
> use dnsmasq, which is running on the router regardless.] This obviously
> doesn't work when the laptop is connected via VPN. [The laptop can
> access the LAN hosts fine via their hostnames, so I seem to have the
> routing correctly configured on the laptop and the router.]
> 
> What I seem to want (but maybe XY?) is some way to adjust the host
> files (or dnsmasq's information) so that the hostname will resolve to
> the LAN address when the laptop is connected to the LAN, and the VPN
> address when it's connected via VPN. If everything was using DHCP, this
> would be straightforward enough, but as I said, the VPN apparently
> needs to be configured statically, and not via DHCP. I could obviously
> use some custom script (using, say, ageas, to modify host files) but
> this seems hackish. What is a standard, 'correct' way to do this, or
> more generally, to enable the LAN hosts to access the laptop
> seamlessly regardless of its IP address and connection type?

What about connecting to the VPN even from the LAN? So the VPN address
is always available.

Another thought I've had in the past, but probably won't work in this
case (because one of the locations is on the same side of the router as
the other machines) is to give the laptop its own block (on the loopback
or maybe a dummy device), and adjust the routing tables (which the
wireguard server will probably do).

Richard




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Re: A call to drop gnome

[Dekks Herton]

Reco  writes:

>   Hi.
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
>> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream
>> said their word loud and clear, and that
>> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.
>
> I wrote it, in reply to Thomas e-mail. Please watch who you quote.
>
>
>> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video process,
>> just because the team have decided to like it lots.
>
> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to run
> GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable Debian.
> Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that everyone use the
> GNOME that way.

Wayland as default will be by and large OK as far as GNOME is concerned
IMO from the 2 years i've ran it as default. The last few gnome releases
are very solid. Waylands real problem is the DE/OS devs love it but
users and apparently most app devs couldn't care less.

> You have the ability to run GNOME over X. For now. I predicted that such
> ability may disappear in unspecified future (probably - years). Because
> GNOME upstream is (in)famous for feature removal.
>
>
>> I say this is NOT freedom.
>
> The usual arguments apply.
> Don't like it - patch it. Patches are welcome. They have the commit bit
> - you do not. Etc.
> And yes, there are some who did exactly that - Mate DE, Cinnamon DE to
> name a few examples.
>
>
>> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not
>> just as the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.
>
> There's an appropriate place for such wishes, it's called
> https://bugs.debian.org.
>
> Reco
>

-- 
Regards.
 
PGP Fingerprint: 3DF8 311C 4740 B5BC 3867  72DF 1050 452F 9BCE BA00

Re: is xdvi broken?

[Kushal Kumaran]

rlhar...@oplink.net writes:

> On 2019.04.16 14:20, Dan Ritter wrote:
>> I would be looking at the keyboard. Is it possible that you have
>> some stickiness in your bottom row modifiers? Unintentional
>> presses and slow releases can cause symptoms like you have
>> described.
>
> I thank you, kind sir.  I am aware that my expensive and not-very-old
> MX3850USB Cherry keyboard is not well-behaved; I shall return to my
> old $12 keyboard.
>
> However, I still question why the display kept returning to the xdvi
> window after I closed the window and had started no other instance of
> xdvi.  Could the reason be that I started xdvi in the background,
> using & at the end of the command line?

Do you have some kind of live-preview configuration?  It's been a while
since I did LaTeX, but I remember latex-mode had some configuration that
allows to to continuously run (pdf)latex and keep a previewer running.
I think the latexmk command does something similar.  See if you have an
instance of that running in the background somewhere.

Try with an empty ~/.emacs.d (or start emacs with -Q) and see if the
behaviour persists.  That will eliminate latex-mode configuration as a
potential culprit.

-- 
regards,
kushal

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Francisco M Neto]

On Tue, 2019-04-16 at 18:48 +, Curt wrote:
> On 2019-04-16, Matthew Crews  wrote:
> > This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster
> > right?
> > Well, all someone needs to do is update Synaptic with proper Wayland
> > support. But judging by the upstream development, it appears that
> > Synaptic might be abandoned?
> > https://launchpad.net/synaptic
> 
> https://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2019/02/14/packagekit-is-dead-long-live-well-something-else/
> 
> Ditto PackageKit, according to the maintainer, it would appear.

Also, that's not the correct address for Synaptic's development
repo. The Debian page on it is embarrasingly outdated. It's hosted on
github now:

https://github.com/mvo5/synaptic
 
-- 
[]'s,

Francisco M Neto 

GPG: 4096R/D692FBF0


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Re: A call to drop gnome

[Patrick Bartek]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 16:54:02 +1000
Keith Bainbridge  wrote:

> Good afternoon
> 
> 
> I've copied 2 bits from the discussion on synaptic and adding my 2 bobs' 
> worth towards the next review of whether gnome remains the default desktop.
> 
> 
> 
> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's 
> upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
>  > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.  
> 
> 
> 
> On 16/4/19 12:23 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote:>
>  > The decision to ship GNOME as the default desktop is regularly
>  > revisited: And
>  > if a future GNOME release dropped X support altogether, you can be sure
>  > that
>  > would be a factor in the re-evaluation that would follow.  
> 
> 
> I've never been a fan of gnome, and I can only say that in the beginning 
> it was simply because I didn't yet know about themes etc. I settled for 
> KDE, in the 1990's.  I now know that it was the slowest of all, but I 
> found my way around easiest.
> 
> [snip]

So, don't install GNOME.  Choose another DE.  Just because it's "the
default" means nothing. Or do what I did 7 years ago when I first
installed Wheezy after using Fedore/GNOME for a number of years: Abandon
the desktop environment all-together and use a window manager. (I chose
Openbox.) You'll be amazed at how much smoother and more responsive
everything is without doing anything other than getting rid of all
DE background crap you don't really need.

B

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Peter Wiersig]

Martin Schwarz  writes:
>
> Here's the output from some commands I hope to be helpful:
>
> The machine in this example is a RADIUS server but has not even gone
> productive ... no incoming client requests yet.  (But the problem is not
> related to the RADIUS server software - OSC Radiator - since the same
> symptoms show on different machines: not only RADIUS servers but also
> nameservers, shell servers or jumphosts, etc.)
>
> [values while the problem persists:]
...
> USER   PID %CPU %MEMVSZ   RSS TTY  STAT START   TIME COMMAND
> root 34718 12.0  0.5  29596  5672 ?D09:01   0:00 
> /usr/bin/python3 -Es /usr/bin/lsb_release --short --description
> root 26491  3.1  0.2  79328  2860 ?D08:04   1:50 apt-get 
> update -qq
> root 32551  6.8  0.2 119036  2800 ?D08:51   0:43 
> /usr/bin/python3 /usr/bin/unattended-upgrade

Disable this, do your upgrades by some schedule for the duration in
which you're debugging this problem.  Think about system orchestration
tools with push mechanisms if you want to minimize RAM allocated to
VMs.  We're thinking about deploying ansible for patch management.

> root 12792  2.2  0.1 159720  1748 ?D06:06   3:54 
> /usr/bin/perl -w /usr/bin/apt-show-versions -i
> root 15502  2.4  0.1 167660  1608 ?D06:25   3:51 
> /usr/bin/perl -w /usr/bin/apt-show-versions -i

Do they need to run on 6:06 and then parallel at 6:25?  What's their
process tree calling structure, ie. what's starting them?

> root 34527  1.7  0.1  14096  1596 ?Ss   09:01   0:00 /bin/bash 
> /usr/bin/check_mk_agent

Can you show a zoomed image of the memory graph prior to a problem?  And
a load graph of the same duration?

I had some webservers which were also prone to death spiraling, the only
real solution was to throw RAM at them until they were able to process
the requests and to optimize the database indices to speed up the time
spent fetching and sorting rows.

Peter

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Peter Wiersig]

Reco  writes:

Hi Reco,

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:39:32PM +0200, Peter Wiersig wrote:
>> VSZ is the Virtual Memory Size. (...),
>>including memory that is swapped out,
>> memory that is allocated, but not used,
  
>> and memory that is from shared libraries.""
>
> Given this:
>
> == cut ==
>
> One can expect the process to "consume" 4Gb of VSZ, and about 700kb of
> RSS.
>
> Do you really suggest to treat all this VSZ as a "used memory"? A hint -
> compile the sample, run it a hundred times.

No, but that is all in the explanation above albeit tersely. I
underlined the part which comes into play with your example code.

If Martin wants to find out what's using his memory during timespans
with degraded performance, it will not be helpful to list the processes
and sort by thenot swapped amount.  If the system is thrashing due to
swapping in and out, I always look at the VSZ values to find out where I
should direct my attention to.

If Martin or if you want, I can explode the the previous sentence about
what VSZ is but you'd probably find better answers if you read about
that.

Feel free to ask, I think I can explain more, but not better than
stackexchange answers or for example LWN kernel article series.

Have fun,
Peter

Re: Liste de composants reconnus/utilisables par des pilotes/firmwares libres

[F. Dubois]

Le 16/04/2019 à 22:41, Benoit B a écrit :

Bonjour

Tout est dans le titre...
Avant d'acheter un ordinateur portable,comment par exemple, vérifier
que le wifi va fonctionner avec des pilotes/firmwares libres ?

Existe-t-il un site ou on peut rechercher un composant et vérifier son
bon fonctionnement ?

Merci d'avance.

Benoit


Bonsoir, déjà pour le wifi.

https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/welcome

http://linuxwireless.sipsolutions.net/

Après suffit de choisir la/les machine/s potentielles et chercher la 
compatibilité des différents sous-systèmes selon les composants.


N'importe quel moteur de recherche (https://duckduckgo.com/ par exemple) 
donne plein de réponses (in english it's better and more up to date of 
course)


Fabien

Liste de composants reconnus/utilisables par des pilotes/firmwares libres

[Benoit B]

Bonjour

Tout est dans le titre...
Avant d'acheter un ordinateur portable,comment par exemple, vérifier
que le wifi va fonctionner avec des pilotes/firmwares libres ?

Existe-t-il un site ou on peut rechercher un composant et vérifier son
bon fonctionnement ?

Merci d'avance.

Benoit

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Re: is xdvi broken?

[rlharris]

On 2019.04.16 14:20, Dan Ritter wrote:

I would be looking at the keyboard. Is it possible that you have
some stickiness in your bottom row modifiers? Unintentional
presses and slow releases can cause symptoms like you have
described.


I thank you, kind sir.  I am aware that my expensive and not-very-old 
MX3850USB Cherry keyboard is not well-behaved; I shall return to my old 
$12 keyboard.


However, I still question why the display kept returning to the xdvi 
window after I closed the window and had started no other instance of 
xdvi.  Could the reason be that I started xdvi in the background, using 
& at the end of the command line?

Re: Réduire les logs d'icinga2

[Migrec]

Le 16/04/2019 à 17:23, Daniel Caillibaud a écrit :

Donc aucun des arguments passés... Est-ce normal ?

Oui si tu utilises systemd et que icinga2 a une définition
dans /etc/systemd/system (dans ce cas /etc/default
et /etc/init.d/tonService sont ignorés)

Dans ce cas (ton système utilise /etc/systemd/system/icinga2.service)  tu
dois créer un fichier /etc/systemd/system/icinga2.service.d/override.conf
(le nom "override" est arbitraire mais il faut l'extension .conf) qui
contiendrait par ex

[Unit]
Description=version perso du service icinga2 (moins verbeuse)

[Service]
# il faut affecter un truc vide avant une nouvelle valeur,
# sinon ça râle avec
# Service has more than one ExecStart= setting …
ExecStart=
# et ta commande de démarrage
ExecStart=commande du service d'origine avec tes options


Tu pourrais modifier directement /etc/systemd/system/icinga2.service mais


Bonjour,

Parfait ! Je n'ai plus du tout pensé que c'était systemd qui gérait ça 
maintenant, mon serveur est à jour mais je l'oublie un peu tellement il 
fonctionne "bien".
Donc j'ai du farfouiller un peu car le script est dans 
/etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants.
J'ai du mal à comprendre l'imbrication de tout ça mais je viens de 
trouver l'occasion de comprendre. Les scripts /etc/init.d/ ne servent 
plus du tout ?


Les logs sont désormais plus lisibles !

Merci.
--
Migrec

Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Pascal Hambourg (2019-04-16 20:39:25)
> Le 15/04/2019 à 16:38, Tom Browder a écrit :
> > 
> > I have decided to use the Deb installer and select LVM during
> > the clean installation, and accept the FS default (I assume it will be
> > ext4, but if not, I will select it).
> 
> If you intend to use guided partitioning on the whole disk, I repeat 
> that LVM is worthless unless you plan to add disks in the future.

It is true that debian-installer currently by default uses up all space, 
but LVM allows you to adjust space allocation later - if only you chose 
a partitioning layout with multiple partitions: Log in as root (without 
being logged in as regular user, so that /home is not actively used), 
and run something like this:

  lvreduce --resizefs --size 5G /dev/myhost/home

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-04-16 21:00:04)
> On Tuesday 16 April 2019 13:32:10 Michael Stone wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
> > >There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain
> > > this in the presentation as
> > >
> > >Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> > >Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> > >Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> >
> > There's also aptitude, which actually works well.
> 
> if you are damned carefull, I had it destroy 3 installs already, so badly 
> I had to do a full reinstall.

All package managers will "destroy" your system if you ignore their 
warnings about package removals!

All package managers need to do *something* when you use some unstable 
package combination - which had to be the case for those systems you let 
aptitude destroy.

When aptitude run into package conflicts its first suggestion is to 
remove conflicting packages, where apt and apt-get instead tries to 
force-install (e.g. ignoring recommendations).

When aptitude suggests a solution, you can tell it to come up with other 
solutions to the conflict, and typically 2nd or 3rd proposal is what you 
wanted.

If you dislike removals by default, then add a file 
/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99avoid-removals with this content:

  Aptitude::ProblemResolver::Remove-Level "maximum";

 - Jonas

-- 
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Re: octave plots/graphics

[Bruno Schneider]

Answering to myself for future reference:

I installed fonts-freefont-otf and the problem seems to be fixed. This
package is not recommended nor suggested by octave.

I couldn't find a way to configure a different font file as default font.

-- 
Bruno Schneider

Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 20:59:54)
> 
> 
> On 16/04/2019 19:19, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 19:27:34)
> >> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
> >> in the presentation as
> >>
> >> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> >> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> >> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> > 
> > There are more - these are the ones I know of (registered with boxer):
> > 
> > command-line:
> >   * apt
> >   * packagekit-tools
> >   * cupt
> >   * wajig
> > 
> > command-line and scripted:
> >   * apt-get
> > 
> > scripted:
> >   * unattended-upgrades
> >   * cron-apt
> > 
> > command-line and curses (fullscreen text):
> >   * aptitude
> > 
> > GNOME:
> >   * software-properties-gtk
> >   * gnome-packagekit
> > 
> > GTK
> >   * listaller
> >   * synaptic (but not in Buster)
> > 
> > KDE:
> >   * software-properties-kde
> >   * apper
> >   * muon
> >   * qapt-utils
> > 
> > 
> >  - Jonas
> > 
> Cool thanks for this.  Just out of interest as I prefer to be using lxde
> which GUI package manager would Buster install by default for that.?

This command will tell you what debian-installer would pull in when you 
choose to install the lxde desktop:

  apt show task-lxde-desktop

To answer your question: None (because synaptic is not in Buster)


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types

[Felix Miata]

Jonathan Dowland composed on 2019-04-16 09:17 (UTC+0100):

> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:38:12PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

>> Both DFSee and IBM
>>BM use the last sector on the first track for data storage, including useful
>>cataloging data. Even when not having IBM BM installed, its data sector is
>>(optionally) used by DFSee, by me, always.

> So I gather that you believe DFSee (or some functionality of DFSee that you
> rely upon) is incompatible with LVM.

>From it's logging I have filesystem/operating system inventory that facilitates
clone, backup, restore, move, etc., all available wherever a disk happens to be
accessible, without requiring mounting anything or support for any particular
filesystem:
http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Dfsee/gb250L07.txt
http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Dfsee/p5bseL05.txt

I can't imagine that Gnu LVM wouldn't escalate complications of the complicated
environment that multiboot is.

> But I didn't understand this particular
> point about the last sector on the first track… is that a region of a physical
> drive prior to the first physical partition (assuming an MBR partitioning
> scheme)?

Typically it's either LBA sector 0x1F or 0x3E.

> This alone would not prevent you using LVM, which one would typically
> layer on top of traditional partitions.

That sector contains information not available elsewhere, originally intended 
for
constructing IBM BM's boot menu and functionality, with OS/2 LVM data later 
added.
It wouldn't prevent using Gnu LVM, but neither could it assist with cataloging 
of
Gnu LVM content. Gnu LVM would be an extra layer only accessible via Linux 
tools,
entirely outside the scope of what works for me now.

All this disregards the issue of LVM's physical discontinuity when sector level
rescue operations are indicated by the gap between failure and most recent 
backup.
This alone would keep me from considering its addition here. I'm well beyond a
point in time when any change in routine could be considered anything but 
hostile.
I strongly resist fixing what ain't broke.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: is xdvi broken?

[Dan Ritter]

rlhar...@oplink.net wrote: 
> my desktop system:  amd64, Debian 9, xfce, Emacs 24, TeXLive, xdvi
> 
> While using xdvi to view a LaTeX document being written with Emacs, the
> display keeps jumping from the Emacs window to the xdvi window.
> 
> The behaviour persists even after the xdvi window is closed; while in Emacs
> I suddenly am looking at the document in the xdvi window.
> 
> Several xfce launchers (synaptic and midnight commander) never have worked,
> but others work properly.
> 
> Once or twice a week it seems that the desktop is not working quite right
> with the workspace switcher, but I have not been able to discern a pattern.
> When I restart the computer, things appear to work properly again.
> 
> Is xdvi broken?  Or can it be that there is a failure in the  motherboard or
> the memory of this system?  Or can the hard drive be the culprit?  The
> hardware is more than five years old, but the computer is the newest machine
> I have.

I would be looking at the keyboard. Is it possible that you have
some stickiness in your bottom row modifiers? Unintentional
presses and slow releases can cause symptoms like you have
described.

-dsr-

Re: Accessing a host with variable IP addresses / connection types

[Celejar]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 20:45:54 +0200
Pascal Hambourg  wrote:

> Le 16/04/2019 à 17:03, Celejar a écrit :
> > 
> > What I seem to want (but maybe XY?) is some way to adjust the host
> > files (or dnsmasq's information) so that the hostname will resolve to
> > the LAN address when the laptop is connected to the LAN, and the VPN
> > address when it's connected via VPN. [...]
> > What is a standard, 'correct' way to do this, or
> > more generally, to enable the LAN hosts to access the laptop
> > seamlessly regardless of its IP address and connection type?
> 
> Dynamic DNS.

Thanks. I thought of that, but I'm going to need more explanation and
help. I understand that I can use something like nsupdate to update DNS
records, but then I'd need to install and configure a compatible DNS
server - the one I currently use, dnsmasq, apparently doesn't support
RFC 2136 updates. Is there something I'm missing?

Additionally, I'm using simple hostnames, not FQDN names. Will that
still work with dynamic DNS?

Celejar

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 14:13:31 Stephan Seitz wrote:

> On Di, Apr 16, 2019 at 07:53:40 +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
> >Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
> >Wayland by default.
>
> I thought Ubuntu dropped Wayland and returned to X11?
>
> Concerning Wayland: as long as it doesn’t have some kind of X11
> forwarding feature (easy to use with „ssh -X”), it’s useless for me.
>
Precisely...

> Shade and sweet water!
>
>   Stephan


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 13:32:38 Ansgar Burchardt wrote:

> Gene Heskett writes:
> > Where the heck in its confusing menu's can I find a tab supporting
> > terminal so I can get something done? Go ahead, find it, my coffee
> > needs to cool anyway..
>
> You press the magic Super key, then type "Terminal" on the keyboard
> (or at least the beginning), then press Enter.  GNOME feels pretty
> much designed to not be used by a mouse alone ;-)
>
> Ansgar

And that magic Super key is?  And does it do tabs? 

I have 4 workspaces with terminals, each of which has 4 or 7 tabs 
available right now on this Wheezy box running TDE R14.x. Opening a 
separate new terminal on the same workspace like gnome does on stretch 
is a total non-starter for me. So one of the earlier things I did before 
I found synaptic was to be the orphan that starved to death, and brought 
my conversion to stretch to a screeching halt, was to convert it to TDE 
R14.x from gnome.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: INFO: task blocked for more than 120 seconds

[Étienne Mollier]

steve, au 2018-04-16 :
> Le 15-04-2019, à 22:24:20 +0200, Étienne Mollier a écrit :
> > steve, au 2019-04-15 :
> > > Le 12-04-2019, à 20:01:17 +0200, Étienne Mollier a écrit :
> > > > Si un sous système corrompt le noyau, alors il n'est peut-être
> > > > pas nécessaire de chercher plus loin, et juste de le désactiver.
> > >
> > > Je pourrais en effet essayer le driver libre « nouveau ». Mais la
> > > dernière fois que j'ai essayé, ce n'était vraiment pas très concluant.
> >
> > Ça vaudrait peut-être quand même le coup de voir si le noyau est
> > toujours teinté sans ce pilote, et si le problème se pose à nouveau.
>
> Oui.

Bonjour,

Au début, j'ai compris « Oui ça vaudrait le coup d'essayer! »
Mais peut-être qu'il s'agit plutôt de « Oui, le problème se
reproduit avec un noyau non teinté! »

> > Sinon, plus prosaïquement, dans quel état se trouve le Raid
> > actuellement ?  Est-il toujours partiel ou bien le remplacement
> > du disque en panne a eu lieu ?  (cat /proc/mdstat)
>
> J'avais trois disques dans la grappe dont un spare qui a pris du service
> quand j'ai débranché le disque défectueux.
>
> $ cat /proc/mdstat
> Personalities : [raid1] [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid6]
> [raid5] [raid4] [raid10]
> md1 : active raid1 sdb5[2] sde5[3]
>  117120896 blocks super 1.2 [2/2] [UU]
>
> md2 : active raid1 sdb6[2] sde6[3]
>  97589120 blocks super 1.2 [2/2] [UU]
>
> md0 : active raid1 sdb1[2] sde1[3]
>  19514240 blocks super 1.2 [2/2] [UU]
>
> unused devices: 
>
>
> Donc ok.

En dehors des freezes et des traces dans `dmesg`, tout me semble
correct, donc la piste du bug noyau me semble envisageable.  En
jetant un œil aux changelogs, j'ai remarqué que Linux 4.19.24 a
été publié avec une correction relative à la reconstruction de
Raid 1 [0] indiquant notamment des risques de corruption, en cas
d'interruption de la reconstruction notamment.

[0] https://cdn.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v4.x/ChangeLog-4.19.24

Toutefois, je ne sais pas si vous vous êtes retrouvé dans la
situation décrite par le changelog, ni si corruption il y a ;
je crois qu'il y aurait aussi des erreurs relatives à votre
système de fichier dans `dmesg` dans ce cas.

> J'ai acheté un disque supplémentaire mais n'ai pas encore eu le temps de
> l'installer.

Si cette histoire de corruption à la reconstruction est avérée,
alors je délayerais la reconstruction au moins à après mise à
jour vers la dernière version de Linux 4.19 mise à disposition
dans les backports.

Amicalement,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 

is xdvi broken?

[rlharris]

my desktop system:  amd64, Debian 9, xfce, Emacs 24, TeXLive, xdvi

While using xdvi to view a LaTeX document being written with Emacs, the 
display keeps jumping from the Emacs window to the xdvi window.


The behaviour persists even after the xdvi window is closed; while in 
Emacs I suddenly am looking at the document in the xdvi window.


Several xfce launchers (synaptic and midnight commander) never have 
worked, but others work properly.


Once or twice a week it seems that the desktop is not working quite 
right with the workspace switcher, but I have not been able to discern a 
pattern.  When I restart the computer, things appear to work properly 
again.


Is xdvi broken?  Or can it be that there is a failure in the  
motherboard or the memory of this system?  Or can the hard drive be the 
culprit?  The hardware is more than five years old, but the computer is 
the newest machine I have.

Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Michael Stone]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 03:00:04PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

if you are damned carefull, I had it destroy 3 installs already, so badly
I had to do a full reinstall.


You have to really try, since it tells you what it's going to do before 
it does anything. But you have a history of odd problems so I'm sure 
it's possible.

Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 13:32:10 Michael Stone wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
> >There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain
> > this in the presentation as
> >
> >Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> >Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> >Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
>
> There's also aptitude, which actually works well.

if you are damned carefull, I had it destroy 3 installs already, so badly 
I had to do a full reinstall.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Paul Sutton]

On 16/04/2019 19:19, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 19:27:34)
>> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
>> in the presentation as
>>
>> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
>> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
>> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> 
> There are more - these are the ones I know of (registered with boxer):
> 
> command-line:
>   * apt
>   * packagekit-tools
>   * cupt
>   * wajig
> 
> command-line and scripted:
>   * apt-get
> 
> scripted:
>   * unattended-upgrades
>   * cron-apt
> 
> command-line and curses (fullscreen text):
>   * aptitude
> 
> GNOME:
>   * software-properties-gtk
>   * gnome-packagekit
> 
> GTK
>   * listaller
>   * synaptic (but not in Buster)
> 
> KDE:
>   * software-properties-kde
>   * apper
>   * muon
>   * qapt-utils
> 
> 
>  - Jonas
> 
Cool thanks for this.  Just out of interest as I prefer to be using lxde
which GUI package manager would Buster install by default for that.?

I need to remember that this presentation is for Debian with Gnome +
Wayland.

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 12:54:00 Matthew Crews wrote:

> On 4/16/19 6:54 AM, Reco wrote:
> >> I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the
> >> desktop people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend,
> >> saying 90% of why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there
> >> is not a standardized, one size fits all because it can do all
> >> things desktop.
> >
> > A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC
> > story in all his former glory - I need to see this.
>
> Old news. He posted two days ago about Linux Kernel 5.1-rc5:
>
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/4/14/265
>
None of those messages are related to what I read late last week.
>
> As far as Gnome on Wayland, X.org's days are numbered, and for good
> reason.
>
> The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland, but they
> continue to support X because Wayland isn't fully ready. However it
> cannot be made ready unless people are actually using it in the wild,
> and submitting feedback.
>
> Additionally, every major Linux distro supports Wayland, provided
> their chosen DE supports Wayland. Some major ones even USE Wayland by
> default where possible. It will not be long before X is deprecated,
> and then fully removed.
>
> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster
> right? Well, all someone needs to do is update Synaptic with proper
> Wayland support. But judging by the upstream development, it appears
> that Synaptic might be abandoned?
>
> https://launchpad.net/synaptic
>
> Well, it's maintained by an Ubuntu developer, and Ubuntu doesn't even
> ship Synaptic anymore.
>
> All the same, hardly a reason to drop Gnome.
>
> My 2¢
>
> -Matt


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Curt]

On 2019-04-16, Matthew Crews  wrote:
>
> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
> Well, all someone needs to do is update Synaptic with proper Wayland
> support. But judging by the upstream development, it appears that
> Synaptic might be abandoned?

> https://launchpad.net/synaptic

https://blogs.gnome.org/hughsie/2019/02/14/packagekit-is-dead-long-live-well-something-else/

Ditto PackageKit, according to the maintainer, it would appear.

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 16.04.2019 22:54, Matthew Crews wrote:
> I will concede that as long as Nvidia drivers do not play nicely with
> Wayland (and they don't AFAIK), X will still be required. But I did just
> read that Plasma 5.16 landed Nvidia patches that let it work under
> Wayland with Nvidia, so maybe not that much longer in the future?
You could run Gnome with nvidia back in 2017 already. Run a console and
a browser with hardware acceleration support, but that was about it.
Unless Nvidia will make stable drivers with Wayland support and there
will be some kind of back compatibility layer implemented in Wayland, to
allow to run "legacy" software, I'll stay on X and on Stretch.
I agree with the fact that we must migrate to Wayland to test it and
provide feedback, but it needs to be a build house, just without
furniture, not a mere scaffolding that being build last 10 years.
>
> (and unfortunately, people will still buy and use Nvidia cards, and want
> support for them whether or not the drivers are FOSS).
There are no alternatives. Red cards, despite their flashy marketing,
still don't have drivers to fully support them and games with native
Linux ports don't support them officially.
Blue cards are simply out of the league.
> Fair enough. I personally think KDE or even XFCE should be the default
> DE for Debian, but thats just my opinion and the the topic of endless
> debate. We will be in circles debating what we think the default DE for
> Debian should be. As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
> as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
> doesn't really matter in the end.
>
> I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
> works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
> good enough IMO.
>
Gnome is not just a DE, so it surely won't go anywhere. There is too
much ecosystem that couldn't be just thrown away.
And every other DE (except maybe KDE) uses parts from Gnome.
As for Synaptic, if I really want something going on my system, I'll
backport it and throw it's deb package into special folder with the rest
of backported things I use.
But for now, I plan to stay on oldstable (stretch) for a couple of years
and watch how things will be developed from a distance.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: Accessing a host with variable IP addresses / connection types

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 16/04/2019 à 17:03, Celejar a écrit :


What I seem to want (but maybe XY?) is some way to adjust the host
files (or dnsmasq's information) so that the hostname will resolve to
the LAN address when the laptop is connected to the LAN, and the VPN
address when it's connected via VPN. [...]
What is a standard, 'correct' way to do this, or
more generally, to enable the LAN hosts to access the laptop
seamlessly regardless of its IP address and connection type?


Dynamic DNS.

Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 15/04/2019 à 16:38, Tom Browder a écrit :


I have decided to use the Deb installer and select LVM during
the clean installation, and accept the FS default (I assume it will be
ext4, but if not, I will select it).


If you intend to use guided partitioning on the whole disk, I repeat 
that LVM is worthless unless you plan to add disks in the future.


If you intend to use manual partitioning, there is no default filesystem 
type.

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Reco]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 07:54:18PM +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
> I will concede that as long as Nvidia drivers do not play nicely with
> Wayland (and they don't AFAIK), X will still be required.

That's very simplistic point of view.
What about Wayland on non-x86, like ARM or MIPS (a hint - it does not
work there, X does)?
Or, for example, whatever they put instead of videocards in servers
these days. Before you ask - I personally saw people putting X on
servers.
Or, something deceptively simple. Debian 10 in QEMU running Wayland.


> But I did just read that Plasma 5.16 landed Nvidia patches that let it
> work under Wayland with Nvidia, so maybe not that much longer in the
> future?

That's just scratching the surface of it. Contrary to the popular
option, video card world does not ends at Intel, AMD and Nvidia.


> (and unfortunately, people will still buy and use Nvidia cards, and want
> support for them whether or not the drivers are FOSS).
> 
> >> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.
> > 
> > [Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?
> 
> Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
> Wayland by default.

Ok, I stand corrected.


> >> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
> > 
> > In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
> > uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
> > I mean, look at the Subject.
> 
> Fair enough. I personally think KDE or even XFCE should be the default
> DE for Debian, but thats just my opinion and the the topic of endless
> debate.

I see no debate. GNOME is a primary DE for Debian on i386 and amd64 for
now, and had been for many years, barring that XFCE hiccup back in 2010
(only sid was affected).


> We will be in circles debating what we think the default DE for
> Debian should be. As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
> as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
> doesn't really matter in the end.

[Carefully looks at synaptic] Does it?


> I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
> works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
> good enough IMO.

Such trolling topics are a rare source of pure entertainment here.
I do not take them seriously, YMMV.


> On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
> synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
> I brought it up.

Different topics, different OPs. Mostly the same participants, sure.

Reco

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Stephan Seitz]

On Di, Apr 16, 2019 at 07:53:40 +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:

Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
Wayland by default.


I thought Ubuntu dropped Wayland and returned to X11?

Concerning Wayland: as long as it doesn’t have some kind of X11 
forwarding feature (easy to use with „ssh -X”), it’s useless for me.


Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

--
| Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html |


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Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Paul Sutton (2019-04-16 19:27:34)
> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
> in the presentation as
> 
> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)

There are more - these are the ones I know of (registered with boxer):

command-line:
  * apt
  * packagekit-tools
  * cupt
  * wajig

command-line and scripted:
  * apt-get

scripted:
  * unattended-upgrades
  * cron-apt

command-line and curses (fullscreen text):
  * aptitude

GNOME:
  * software-properties-gtk
  * gnome-packagekit

GTK
  * listaller
  * synaptic (but not in Buster)

KDE:
  * software-properties-kde
  * apper
  * muon
  * qapt-utils


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Re: A call to drop gnome

[Matthew Crews]

On 4/16/19 10:36 AM, Reco wrote:
>> The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland,
> 
> All two of them, I assume?

Call me lazy, but I'm not going to cite every article under the Sun
explaining why we *should* be moving to Wayland over X. Here are a few
starting points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29
https://wayland.freedesktop.org/

In the end it comes down to Wayland will be the future way of doing
things, and there are headaches along the way.

I will concede that as long as Nvidia drivers do not play nicely with
Wayland (and they don't AFAIK), X will still be required. But I did just
read that Plasma 5.16 landed Nvidia patches that let it work under
Wayland with Nvidia, so maybe not that much longer in the future?

(and unfortunately, people will still buy and use Nvidia cards, and want
support for them whether or not the drivers are FOSS).

>> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.
> 
> [Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?

Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
Wayland by default.

>> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
> 
> In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
> uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
> I mean, look at the Subject.

Fair enough. I personally think KDE or even XFCE should be the default
DE for Debian, but thats just my opinion and the the topic of endless
debate. We will be in circles debating what we think the default DE for
Debian should be. As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
doesn't really matter in the end.

I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
good enough IMO.

On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
I brought it up.

> Nope, looks alive to me.

Noted, thanks for the correction.




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Re: A call to drop gnome

[Matthew Crews]

On 4/16/19 10:36 AM, Reco wrote:
>> The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland,
> 
> All two of them, I assume?

Call me lazy, but I'm not going to cite every article under the Sun
explaining why we *should* be moving to Wayland over X. Here are a few
starting points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29
https://wayland.freedesktop.org/

In the end it comes down to Wayland will be the future way of doing
things, and there are headaches along the way.

I will concede that as long as Nvidia drivers do not play nicely with
Wayland (and they don't AFAIK), X will still be required. But I did just
read that Plasma 5.16 landed Nvidia patches that let it work under
Wayland with Nvidia, so maybe not that much longer in the future?

(and unfortunately, people will still buy and use Nvidia cards, and want
support for them whether or not the drivers are FOSS).

>> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.
> 
> [Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?

Off the top of my head, Fedora, SUSE and Ubuntu (as of 18.10) use
Wayland by default.

>> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
> 
> In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
> uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
> I mean, look at the Subject.

Fair enough. I personally think KDE or even XFCE should be the default
DE for Debian, but thats just my opinion and the the topic of endless
debate. We will be in circles debating what we think the default DE for
Debian should be. As long as the Debian installer gives us a choice (and
as long as a variety of Live images for each major DE are available), it
doesn't really matter in the end.

I do not think that Gnome should be removed from Debian as long as Gnome
works fine. As far as I'm concerned, it does work fine. Perfect? No, but
good enough IMO.

On this mailing list, though, I could see a progression from "why is
synaptic removed from Debian Buster?" to "Lets remove Gnome", hence why
I brought it up.

> Nope, looks alive to me.

Noted, thanks for the correction.




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Re: HS: iptables interface de sortie par la même que l'entrée.

[Daniel Huhardeaux]

Le 16/04/2019 à 18:44, Jérémy Prego a écrit :

Le 16/04/2019 à 07:05, Pascal Hambourg a écrit :

Le 16/04/2019 à 03:48, Jérémy Prego a écrit :


Le 15/04/2019 à 20:18, Pascal Hambourg a écrit :

Si je comprends bien tu veux marquer seulement les paquets des
connexions sortantes. Une solution consiste à utiliser le marquage de
connexion avec la cible CONNMARK et la correspondance connmark.


pourrais-tu m'éclaircir sur cette partie en me fournissant un exemple de
règle ? je trouve rien qui correspond vraiment après avoir testé
plusieurs règles trouvé et adapté ici et là ...

par exemple j'ai trouvé et adapté une règles comme ça:
iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -m conntrack
--ctstate NEW -j CONNMARK --set-mark 0x3
iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -j CONNMARK --restore-mark

vu que ça ne correspond pas tout à fait à ce que tu indiques plus haut
et que le résultat n'est pas vraiment celui attendu je suppose que je
suis pas bon. Un peu d'aide afin de comprendre comment former ma règle
ne serait pas de refus.


La seconde règle ne doit marquer que les paquets à destination de
l'adresse distante. Il ne faut pas rerouter les paquets provenant de
cette adresse.



j'ai testé ça qui ne fonctionne pas non plus:
iptables -t mangle -D ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -m conntrack
--ctstate NEW -j CONNMARK --set-mark 0x1
iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -j CONNMARK
--restore-markc

de ce que j'ai lu, il semble falloir plusieurs règles par destination
une pour marquer les paquets et une autre  pour restaurer, mais une aide
supplémentaire ne serait pas de refus parce que là j'arrive pas a grand
chose. beaucoup de tuto que j'ai trouvé sur internet ne souhaite que
faire de la répartition de charge et pas faire du routage avancé dans le
sens un host // une connexion. ou alors, quand je trouve ça ça utilise
encore -J MARK donc comme je fais jusqu'à présent.

merci encore pour l'assistance.


Tu as bien

# marked packets go out through there route
ip rule add fwmark $markISP1 table isp1
ip rule add fwmark $markISP2 table isp2

?

--
Daniel Huhardeaux
+33.368460...@tootai.netsip:8...@sip.tootai.net
+41.445532...@swiss-itech.ch  tootaiNET

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Ansgar Burchardt]

Gene Heskett writes:
> Where the heck in its confusing menu's can I find a tab supporting
> terminal so I can get something done? Go ahead, find it, my coffee needs
> to cool anyway..

You press the magic Super key, then type "Terminal" on the keyboard (or
at least the beginning), then press Enter.  GNOME feels pretty much
designed to not be used by a mouse alone ;-)

Ansgar

Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 18:27:34 +0100
Paul Sutton  wrote:

Hello Paul,

>I understand that KDE is going to be using Wayland too (Wayland
>website), does this mean it will use synaptic or does KDE and use its

Currently, I run Synaptic with KDE.  No problems.

There's also muon - a QT based package installer.  I've not yet delved
too deeply into its innards, so can't pass knowledgeable comment on it.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Shut it up you silly cow
Golden Green - Wonder Stuff


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Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Matthew Crews]

On 4/16/19 10:32 AM, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
>> There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
>> in the presentation as
>>
>> Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
>> Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
>> Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)
> 
> There's also aptitude, which actually works well.
> 

FYI, Synaptic is not available in Debian Buster.

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:54:00PM +0200, Matthew Crews wrote:
> On 4/16/19 6:54 AM, Reco wrote:
> >> I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
> >> people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
> >> why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
> >> standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 
> > 
> > A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC story
> > in all his former glory - I need to see this.
> 
> Old news. He posted two days ago about Linux Kernel 5.1-rc5:
> 
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/4/14/265

Nah, that's not Linus. A double, probably.
I mean, there's the expression? Colorful language? Some profanity, at
the very least?


> As far as Gnome on Wayland, X.org's days are numbered, and for good reason.

And now it gets interesting.


> The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland,

All two of them, I assume?


> but they continue to support X because Wayland isn't fully ready.

Ok.


> However it cannot be made ready unless people are actually using it in
> the wild, and submitting feedback.

That's understandable. I mean, code tests and Continuous Integration are
for the cowards, right? Real developers test their code on users. Both
GNOME and KDE are famous in this regard.


> Additionally, every major Linux distro supports Wayland, provided their
> chosen DE supports Wayland.

[Carefully looks at Debian 9, Ubuntu 18.10 and RHEL 7.5].
Sure. That's why they're offering X by default. To test Wayland. That's
a really cunning plan.


> Some major ones even USE Wayland by default where possible.

[Scratches head] SUSE? Surely that's what you meant?


> It will not be long before X is deprecated, and then
> fully removed.

All these sentences, but I failed to see this "good reason" of yours.


> This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?

In this particular thread we discuss a wish of a Debian User, who in no
uncertain terms expressed that GNOME should be dropped from the Debian.
I mean, look at the Subject.


> Well, all someone needs to do is update Synaptic with proper Wayland
> support.

And the reason for this being exactly what?


> But judging by the upstream development, it appears that
> Synaptic might be abandoned?

$ x-www-browser https://packages.debian.org/source/sid/synaptic
$ git clone --depth=1 https://github.com/mvo5/synaptic
$ cd synaptic
$ git log
commit 449180d2d1abbd49e113d882e8b9b6387321c4fa
Author: Michael Vogt 
Date:   Mon Apr 15 11:14:51 2019 +0200

Nope, looks alive to me.

Reco

Re: A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Michael Stone]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 06:27:34PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:

There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
in the presentation as

Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)


There's also aptitude, which actually works well.

A few questions (buster and presentation)

[Paul Sutton]

Hi

Just a few questions for clarity.

There are 3 main ways to install packages,  I have tried to explain this
in the presentation as

Apt - 1.8.0 - command line tool (universal)
Gnome-packagekit - used for gnome desktop environment
Synaptic - 0.84.5 used for most other Desktop Environment(s)

I understand that KDE is going to be using Wayland too (Wayland
website), does this mean it will use synaptic or does KDE and use its
own package manager?  versions quoted above are the versions that come
with Debian 10.

I want to focus this on the default Buster options and make passing
mentions to other desktop environments.

What version of Xorg comes with Buster or more to the point how to I
query this directly.  for apt it is apt -v but xorg is different as it
is mutiple components.

Thanks

Paul


-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Matthew Crews]

On 4/16/19 6:54 AM, Reco wrote:
>> I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
>> people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
>> why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
>> standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 
> 
> A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC story
> in all his former glory - I need to see this.

Old news. He posted two days ago about Linux Kernel 5.1-rc5:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/4/14/265


As far as Gnome on Wayland, X.org's days are numbered, and for good reason.

The major DEs are all pushing for the move to Wayland, but they continue
to support X because Wayland isn't fully ready. However it cannot be
made ready unless people are actually using it in the wild, and
submitting feedback.

Additionally, every major Linux distro supports Wayland, provided their
chosen DE supports Wayland. Some major ones even USE Wayland by default
where possible. It will not be long before X is deprecated, and then
fully removed.

This all stems back to Synaptic being removed from Debian Buster right?
Well, all someone needs to do is update Synaptic with proper Wayland
support. But judging by the upstream development, it appears that
Synaptic might be abandoned?

https://launchpad.net/synaptic

Well, it's maintained by an Ubuntu developer, and Ubuntu doesn't even
ship Synaptic anymore.

All the same, hardly a reason to drop Gnome.

My 2¢

-Matt



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Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:39:32PM +0200, Peter Wiersig wrote:
> VSZ is the Virtual Memory Size. It includes all memory that the process
> can access, including memory that is swapped out, memory that is
> allocated, but not used, and memory that is from shared libraries.""

Given this:

== cut ==

#include 
#include 

void main(void)
{
char* a = malloc(4l*1024l*1024l*1024l);
sleep(1200);
}

== cut ==

One can expect the process to "consume" 4Gb of VSZ, and about 700kb of
RSS.

Do you really suggest to treat all this VSZ as a "used memory"? A hint -
compile the sample, run it a hundred times.

Reco

Re: HS: iptables interface de sortie par la même que l'entrée.

[Jérémy Prego]

Le 16/04/2019 à 07:05, Pascal Hambourg a écrit :
> Le 16/04/2019 à 03:48, Jérémy Prego a écrit :
>>
>> Le 15/04/2019 à 20:18, Pascal Hambourg a écrit :
>>> Si je comprends bien tu veux marquer seulement les paquets des
>>> connexions sortantes. Une solution consiste à utiliser le marquage de
>>> connexion avec la cible CONNMARK et la correspondance connmark.
>>
>> pourrais-tu m'éclaircir sur cette partie en me fournissant un exemple de
>> règle ? je trouve rien qui correspond vraiment après avoir testé
>> plusieurs règles trouvé et adapté ici et là ...
>>
>> par exemple j'ai trouvé et adapté une règles comme ça:
>> iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -m conntrack
>> --ctstate NEW -j CONNMARK --set-mark 0x3
>> iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -j CONNMARK --restore-mark
>>
>> vu que ça ne correspond pas tout à fait à ce que tu indiques plus haut
>> et que le résultat n'est pas vraiment celui attendu je suppose que je
>> suis pas bon. Un peu d'aide afin de comprendre comment former ma règle
>> ne serait pas de refus.
>
> La seconde règle ne doit marquer que les paquets à destination de
> l'adresse distante. Il ne faut pas rerouter les paquets provenant de
> cette adresse.
>

j'ai testé ça qui ne fonctionne pas non plus:
iptables -t mangle -D ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -m conntrack
--ctstate NEW -j CONNMARK --set-mark 0x1
iptables -t mangle -A ROUTING-POLICY -d jeremy.domain.net -j CONNMARK
--restore-markc

de ce que j'ai lu, il semble falloir plusieurs règles par destination
une pour marquer les paquets et une autre  pour restaurer, mais une aide
supplémentaire ne serait pas de refus parce que là j'arrive pas a grand
chose. beaucoup de tuto que j'ai trouvé sur internet ne souhaite que
faire de la répartition de charge et pas faire du routage avancé dans le
sens un host // une connexion. ou alors, quand je trouve ça ça utilise
encore -J MARK donc comme je fais jusqu'à présent.

merci encore pour l'assistance.

Jerem

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:54:06AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> Like, for example, fvwm has an installed-size of
> about 6.5 megabytes.  How big is GNOME?  I wouldn't be surprised if it's
> two orders of magnitude larger than that, just for its "core" components,
> not counting a bunch of games or whatever else can be added on.

# apt install -o APT::Install-Recommends=0 gnome-core
...
Need to get 187 MB of archives.
After this operation, 654 MB of additional disk space will be used.

I'd say that your estimate hit bullseye.

And adding the bells and whistles, it's four orders of magnitude of your
fvwm install:

# apt install -o APT::Install-Recommends=1 -o APT::Install-Suggests=1 gnome
...
Need to get 5,260 MB of archives.
After this operation, 18.4 GB of additional disk space will be used.

Reco

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

> "R" == Reco   writes:

>> Add one more reason to use X.

R> My main reason to continue to use X in buster. I got used to my
R> openbox setup.

Same here. Switched to WindoMaker in 1996 because we had only 256
colors available and it could "render many color using a little number
of elements in a colormap" by doing what pointillist painters did with
the few allowed colors. Maybe younger users never experienced some
strange effects we had when some programs, like netscape, resorted to
use a special colormap, WindowMaker reduced these things a lot
allowing you to have a colorful desktop. 

One of the demo color theme was "Rainbow", and it was possible to use
it without overloading the standard colormap. I still use that color
theme, even if I have to recreate it.

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

P.S.
And now instead of a single daemon we have a herd of daemons.

Re: Réduire les logs d'icinga2

[Daniel Caillibaud]

Le 16/04/19 à 16:47, Migrec  a écrit :
> Bonjour,
> 
> Je n'arrive pas à baisser l'intensité des logs d'icinga2 dans 
> /var/log/syslog.
> 
> J'ai tenté de passer par /etc/default/icinga2 en rajoutant -x critical 

> Je suis aussi passé directement par le script /etc/init.d/icinga2 en 

> Donc aucun des arguments passés... Est-ce normal ?

Oui si tu utilises systemd et que icinga2 a une définition
dans /etc/systemd/system (dans ce cas /etc/default
et /etc/init.d/tonService sont ignorés)

Dans ce cas (ton système utilise /etc/systemd/system/icinga2.service)  tu
dois créer un fichier /etc/systemd/system/icinga2.service.d/override.conf
(le nom "override" est arbitraire mais il faut l'extension .conf) qui
contiendrait par ex

[Unit]
Description=version perso du service icinga2 (moins verbeuse)

[Service]
# il faut affecter un truc vide avant une nouvelle valeur, 
# sinon ça râle avec 
# Service has more than one ExecStart= setting …
ExecStart=
# et ta commande de démarrage
ExecStart=commande du service d'origine avec tes options


Tu pourrais modifier directement /etc/systemd/system/icinga2.service mais
c'est pas conseillé, en général c'est un lien vers du /lib/systemd/system/…
fourni par le paquet qu'il vaut mieux laisser intact (ne serait-ce que pour
s'y référer).
Tu pourrais aussi supprimer le lien et remplacer ça par un fichier de ton
cru, mais l'avantage de la surcharge dans le dossier *.d est de ne
modifier que ce qui t'intéresse et suivre les évolutions du paquet pour le
reste.

-- 
Daniel

(A Darwin qui lui expliquait que l'homme descendait du singe)
"Mon Dieu, pourvu que cela ne se sache pas!"
La reine Victoria.

Accessing a host with variable IP addresses / connection types

[Celejar]

Hi,

I've been bedeviled by this question for a while, but have been unable
to figure out a clean, non-hackish solution. It may be an XY problem ...

I have a system (laptop, running Debian) that is sometimes connected
directly to my LAN, and sometimes connected via VPN (wireguard, to the
local router, running OpenWrt). The LAN is 192.168.0.0/24, with the
laptop having a fixed, static address in that range (although I'm
certainly open to using DHCP, possibly with a fixed address
reservation). The VPN is 10.0.0.0/24, with the laptop getting a fixed,
static address in that range (and wireguard apparently doesn't work
with dhcp).

I currently have an entry in /etc/hosts on the various LAN hosts
assigning a hostname to the laptop's fixed local address, and the LAN
hosts can access the laptop via that hostname. [I could alternatively
use dnsmasq, which is running on the router regardless.] This obviously
doesn't work when the laptop is connected via VPN. [The laptop can
access the LAN hosts fine via their hostnames, so I seem to have the
routing correctly configured on the laptop and the router.]

What I seem to want (but maybe XY?) is some way to adjust the host
files (or dnsmasq's information) so that the hostname will resolve to
the LAN address when the laptop is connected to the LAN, and the VPN
address when it's connected via VPN. If everything was using DHCP, this
would be straightforward enough, but as I said, the VPN apparently
needs to be configured statically, and not via DHCP. I could obviously
use some custom script (using, say, ageas, to modify host files) but
this seems hackish. What is a standard, 'correct' way to do this, or
more generally, to enable the LAN hosts to access the laptop
seamlessly regardless of its IP address and connection type?

Celejar

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 03:41:28PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> Not sure what this is about.
> Isn't a desktop manager, display environment whatever its called a way to
> present icons that you can click on and it starts a program you want to use
> and then gets out of the way ?

A window manager is a program that allows the placement and resizing of
windows, and controls which one is "on top", and so on.  There are lot of
window managers, and many of them offer a whole bunch of features like
menus, icons, program activation from either of those, binding of keys
to actions, etc.

A desktop environment is a window manager PLUS a whole crapload of
additional stuff that I do not personally understand.  But it's really big
and really complicated.  Like, for example, fvwm has an installed-size of
about 6.5 megabytes.  How big is GNOME?  I wouldn't be surprised if it's
two orders of magnitude larger than that, just for its "core" components,
not counting a bunch of games or whatever else can be added on.

Réduire les logs d'icinga2

[Migrec]

Bonjour,

Je n'arrive pas à baisser l'intensité des logs d'icinga2 dans 
/var/log/syslog.


J'ai tenté de passer par /etc/default/icinga2 en rajoutant -x critical 
comme l'indique la doc :

[root@canoe]:~ # cat /etc/default/icinga2
# default settings for icinga2's initscript
DAEMON_ARGS="-d -e /var/log/icinga2/icinga2.err -x critical"

Je suis aussi passé directement par le script /etc/init.d/icinga2 en 
modifiant DAEMON_ARGS:

DAEMON_ARGS="-e /var/log/icinga2/icinga2.err -x critical"


Mais rien à faire, après un
service icinga2 restart, ps -axuf m'indique toujours :
nagios   13129  6.3  2.8 939920 25648 ?    Ssl  13:19   0:00 
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/icinga2/sbin/icinga2 --no-stack-rlimit daemon 
-e /var/log/icinga2/error.log
nagios   13169  0.0  0.1 511768  1256 ?    S    13:19   0:00  \_ 
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/icinga2/sbin/icinga2 --no-stack-rlimit daemon 
-e /var/log/icinga2/error.log


Donc aucun des arguments passés... Est-ce normal ?

Je me retrouve avec des logs trop verbeux dans /var/log/syslog :
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:32:40 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 928/5min 1772/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:32:55 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 1812/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:33:10 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 932/5min 1860/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:33:25 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 1910/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:33:25 +0200] 
information/ConfigObject: Dumping program state to file 
'/var/lib/icinga2/icinga2.state'
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:33:40 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 1958/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:33:55 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 
3.06667/s (184/min 928/5min 1996/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:34:10 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 
3.1/s (188/min 932/5min 2048/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:34:25 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2096/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:34:40 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2144/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:34:55 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 928/5min 2182/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:35:10 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 932/5min 2234/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:35:25 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2282/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:35:40 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2330/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:35:55 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 928/5min 2368/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:36:10 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 
3.1/s (188/min 934/5min 2422/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:36:25 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2468/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:36:40 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2516/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:36:55 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 928/5min 2554/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:37:10 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 934/5min 2608/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:37:25 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2654/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:37:40 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 930/5min 2702/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe icinga2[25364]: [2019-04-16 16:37:55 +0200] 
information/IdoMysqlConnection: Query queue items: 0, query rate: 3.1/s 
(186/min 928/5min 2740/15min);
Apr 16 16:40:10 canoe 

Re: just mail forwarding to smart mailer

[Celejar]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 13:53:05 +
Bonno Bloksma  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> >> > I am looking for an "easy light weight just empty the local queue 
> >> > and very very very easy thing: https://wiki.debian.org/sSMTP
> >
> > Note that sSMTP does not perform server certificate verification, thus 
> > allowing, e.g., credential stealing via MITM attacks. Furthermore, it 
> > neglects to document this failing, although we're working on this ;)
> >
> 
> That is not a problem for me, all mail traffic will be inside out own LAN.
> The wiki has very little info. Like, if it is not a daemon then how does the 
> mail even leave the system? When will the program become active to send the 
> mail to the smarthost?

I'm not sure what you mean by "empty the local queue". The way ssmtp
works is that programs (e.g., the cron daemon) that want to send
mail invoke ssmtp via the 'sendmail' command (which smtp provides a
version of).

> Where can I find more info? It seems this might be my lightweight solution. 
> Using Google for ssmtp gives mostly links to secure smtp.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SSMTP
https://www.linux.com/news/ssmtp-simple-alternative-sendmail
https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/use-ssmtp-to-send-e-mail-simply-and-securely/

> Bonno Bloksma

Celejar

Re: octave plots/graphics

[Henning Follmann]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:21:35AM -0300, Bruno Schneider wrote:
> I have just installed octave and it seems I'm missing some parts. I'm
> using Debian testing with XFCE. I have the following packages
> installed:
> 
> $ dpkg -l | grep octave
> ii  liboctave6:amd64  4.4.1-5
> ii  octave4.4.1-5
> ii  octave-bsltl  1.1.1-2
> ii  octave-common 4.4.1-5
> ii  octave-doc4.4.1-5
> ii  octave-image  2.10.0-2
> 
> On octave, i enter the following commands:
> 
> x = linspace(0, 2*pi);
> a = cos(2*x);
> plot(x, a);
> 
> Then, a window appears with menus, but the drawing is completely blank.
> 
> I get some font errors. I don't know if they affect the graph:
> 
> warning: ft_manager: unable to load font:
> /usr/share/fonts/opentype/freefont/FreeSans.otf
> warning: called from
> axes at line 66 column 10
> newplot at line 158 column 10
> plot at line 222 column 9
> warning: ft_text_renderer: unable to load appropriate font
> 
> It seems I'm using Qt for graphics but my system seems to have all
> libqt5* packages installed. I also tried gnuplot graphics and the
> window was also blank.
> 
> Am I missing packages?
> 

Why do you ignore the *very clear* error message?
try 
apt install fonts-freefont-otf

And then check if the plot works.


> Can I configure octave to use other fonts instead?
> -- 
> Bruno Schneider
> 

-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: A call to drop gnome

[mick crane]

Not sure what this is about.
Isn't a desktop manager, display environment whatever its called a way 
to present icons that you can click on and it starts a program you want 
to use and then gets out of the way ?
Is this about having common libraries that control what appears on the 
screen ?

Am I likely to not be able to use Xming at some future date ?

mick


--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Peter Wiersig]

Martin Schwarz  writes:
> root@rad-m2m-srv02:~# ps aux --sort=-rss | head -15

you're choosing the wrong sort field to debug your problem here:
man ps:
"""
   rss RSS   resident set size, the non-swapped physical memory 
that a task has used (in kiloBytes).
 (alias rssize, rsz).
...
   vsz VSZ   virtual memory size of the process in KiB 
(1024-byte units).  Device mappings are currently
 excluded; this is subject to change. (alias 
vsize)."""

try the latter field if the problem is repeating.  VSZ can be very
misleading with graphical processes, but that should not occur here.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/7880784/what-is-rss-and-vsz-in-linux-memory-management

https://stackoverflow.com/a/21049737/2911961
""RSS is the Resident Set Size and is used to show how much memory is
allocated to that process and is in RAM. It does not include memory that
is swapped out. It does include memory from shared libraries as long as
the pages from those libraries are actually in memory. It does include
all stack and heap memory.

VSZ is the Virtual Memory Size. It includes all memory that the process
can access, including memory that is swapped out, memory that is
allocated, but not used, and memory that is from shared libraries.""

Peter

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 09:54:19 Reco wrote:

>   Hi.
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 09:35:32AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches
> > > > are R> welcome.
> >
> > I wondered how long it would take for that phrase to emerge, so
> > everyone in a position of control can hide behind it yet again.
> >
> > > > Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo
> > > > dialect?"
> > >
> > > Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
> > > translation. Same as everyone else.
> > >
> > > > That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not
> > > > a thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good
> > > > enought, then you have to understando how the program works and
> > > > how to change it. Then you have to write the changes and
> > > > possibly test it against existing test cases, it requires
> > > > skills, it requires time.
> > >
> > > ... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me
> > > GNOME project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one)
> > > long time ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is
> > > harder than avoiding it.
> >
> > +1000!
>
> Um, Gene. You are aware that I wrote both arguments, are you?

I thought it was a bit odd, but so many are using broken quoting, so I 
shrugged it off.
>
> > > > Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.
> > >
> > > I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating
> > > System who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for
> > > logo. Some say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an
> > > unspecified amount of unconventional off-market negotiations and a
> > > bag of dirty tricks.
> >
> > We all heard the same "sermon" and ran like hell because we already
> > were familiar with both their market controlling efforts and this
> > same bag of dirty tricks a bar of good soap has little effect
> > because you simply cannot make them palatable in a free market.
> >
> > I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop
> > people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90%
> > of why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a
> > standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things
> > desktop.
>
> A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC
> story in all his former glory - I need to see this.
>
> Reco

I got unsubbed from lkml a couple years back for "interference". Seems 
like I read it on /. 2, maybe 3 days back. I don't think I'd call it 
former glory, but some leakage and frustration are quite evident. He was 
IMO. overdoing the nice guy bit just a bit. He needs to add a bit more 
iron to his control. I see the lack of that over the last year as being 
partially responsible for this present bruhaha. Or maybe thats just me?  
Your call. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 12:35:29PM +, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> > "R" == Reco   writes:
> 
> 
> R> As we saw two weeks ago, the decision to run GNOME on Wayland
> R> backfired at synaptic. To rephrase, why bother running X if there
> R> are no applications left to run on X?
> 
> Because I like and I use a lot remote display. Because I prefer it
> user program.

So do I, occasionally. It's not a silver bullet, but does the job if the
target host two-three hops from you. Unless you're doing something
really strange like trying to watch the video via "ssh -X" (a hint -
don't).


> If you have only your machine, having or not having "network
> transparency" does not matter. If you live in a network, it matters.

And that's the thing. The network transparency some of us love and use
does not exist in Wayland.
They do offer some bastardized version of RDP, but it has no ability to
connect to an existing session, and there's nothing even remotely close
to my favorite "ssh -X".


> >> Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.
> 
> R> I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating
> R> System who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for
> R> logo. Some say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an
> R> unspecified amount of unconventional off-market negotiations and a
> R> bag of dirty tricks.
> 
> And a band of rebels gathering around a penguin totem in the name of
> freedom. 
> 
> Gnome at least should not chain them in proprietary software.

I never said that members of GNOME project are Satan incarnates.
They write and distribute free (as in freedom) software. It's popular,
whenever it's due to the design or in spite of it.
What does ring some warning bells are methods (see above) that some of
those people utilize to gain that popularity, and a collateral damage to
non-GNOME software.

> 
> R> The way things go right now with the GNOME all those impressive
> R> tricks will be obsolete. Unless, of course, some kind soul moves
> R> that "sway" thing from the experimental to sid.  Because AFAIK
> R> there are only four "Wayland window managers" (it's techically
> R> incorrect to call them that, I know), and only two of them made
> R> into buster so far (GNOME's mutter and weston, the reference one).
> 
> Add one more reason to use X.

My main reason to continue to use X in buster. I got used to my openbox
setup.

Reco

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 09:35:32AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
> > > R> welcome.
> 
> I wondered how long it would take for that phrase to emerge, so everyone 
> in a position of control can hide behind it yet again.
> 
> > > Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo
> > > dialect?"
> >
> > Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
> > translation. Same as everyone else.
> >
> > > That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
> > > thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought,
> > > then you have to understando how the program works and how to change
> > > it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
> > > existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.
> >
> > ... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me
> > GNOME project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one) long
> > time ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is harder than
> > avoiding it.
> 
> +1000!

Um, Gene. You are aware that I wrote both arguments, are you?


> > > Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.
> >
> > I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating System
> > who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for logo. Some
> > say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an unspecified amount
> > of unconventional off-market negotiations and a bag of dirty tricks.
> 
> We all heard the same "sermon" and ran like hell because we already were 
> familiar with both their market controlling efforts and this same bag of 
> dirty tricks a bar of good soap has little effect because you simply 
> cannot make them palatable in a free market.
> 
> I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
> people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
> why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
> standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 

A link please, LKML will suffice. If Linus is back after that CoC story
in all his former glory - I need to see this.

Reco

Re: but it's not going to be installed

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:12:47AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
would the brave-apt stretch line cause problems with software other 
than brave browser which I don't really use ?


No it's very unlikely. It's possible that the particular Brave repository you
have configured there (Brave stretch) could depend upon versions of packages in
stretch rather than the newer Buster, which you are otherwise using
consistently, which might prevent their upgrade. But I don't think that's what
has happened for your mypaint case, Curt's bug
(https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=897909) is the more
likely explanation.

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 16 April 2019 07:01:25 Reco wrote:

>   Hi.
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:38:38AM +, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> > > "R" == Reco   writes:
>
> I *have* to object to this ☺ In C this comparison equals false.
> Have you meant '"R" = Reco' (i.e. assignment)?
>
> > R> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility
> > to R> run GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next
> > stable R> Debian.  Because (and here you're correct) - upstream
> > wants that R> everyone use the GNOME that way.
> >
> > As long as using X is supported without requiring triple backward
> > sommersault to install it, fine. Almost fine. Because HW support
> > stuff should be independent from the user front end.

Agreed.

> As we saw two weeks ago, the decision to run GNOME on Wayland
> backfired at synaptic. To rephrase, why bother running X if there are
> no applications left to run on X?

I think that must be in the back of their minds. But that is something 
you never ever tell the frogs.

> > >> I say this is NOT freedom.

So do I.

> > R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
> > R> welcome.

I wondered how long it would take for that phrase to emerge, so everyone 
in a position of control can hide behind it yet again.

> > Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo
> > dialect?"
>
> Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
> translation. Same as everyone else.
>
> > That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
> > thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought,
> > then you have to understando how the program works and how to change
> > it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
> > existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.
>
> ... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me
> GNOME project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one) long
> time ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is harder than
> avoiding it.

+1000!

Where the heck in its confusing menu's can I find a tab supporting 
terminal so I can get something done? Go ahead, find it, my coffee needs 
to cool anyway..

> > Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.
>
> I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating System
> who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for logo. Some
> say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an unspecified amount
> of unconventional off-market negotiations and a bag of dirty tricks.

We all heard the same "sermon" and ran like hell because we already were 
familiar with both their market controlling efforts and this same bag of 
dirty tricks a bar of good soap has little effect because you simply 
cannot make them palatable in a free market.

I see Linus is drifting back to his older style, issuing the desktop 
people a whipping they are in need of over the weekend, saying 90% of 
why linux doesn't control the desktop is that there is not a 
standardized, one size fits all because it can do all things desktop. 

> > But there are other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who
> > knows, time and wishing nevertheless that some option was available,
> > say, running WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons.
>
> A neat idea BTW.
>
> > And for those there should be at least a good document about doing
> > it.
>
> Agreed.

+10 or more.

> > And not leaving them being forced to do something like a "triple
> > backward sommersault" for doing these changes.
>
> The way things go right now with the GNOME all those impressive tricks
> will be obsolete. Unless, of course, some kind soul moves that "sway"
> thing from the experimental to sid.
> Because AFAIK there are only four "Wayland window managers" (it's
> techically incorrect to call them that, I know), and only two of them
> made into buster so far (GNOME's mutter and weston, the reference
> one).
>
> Reco

I'm not advocating that TDE is THAT desired standardized desktop, but so 
far it its  given me the tools to get the job done AND ITS STABLE. TDE 
is a fork of kde at the 3.5 level, with litterally thousands of its bugs 
fixed, something KDE has steadfastly refused to do unless it outright 
crashed the machine in the life of KDE since 1.0.

So let me say this: If I can't run a desktop I am familiar with, AND 
productive with, because wayland won't run it, theres always mke2fs.

This is still wheezy, because except for firefox, it Just Works.  Theres 
another 2T drive with the latest stretch installed on it in this machine 
and I was in the process of moving my stuff to it with the intention of 
updating to Buster when it was declared stable. That came to a 
screeching halt when I read that synaptic was gone from buster. What I 
do next is still open for discussion. 3 of the 4 other machine tool 
driving machines on my network are also on wheezy, with the 4th, an 
r-pi-3b running a 3/4 ton lathe, running jessie, 

octave plots/graphics

[Bruno Schneider]

I have just installed octave and it seems I'm missing some parts. I'm
using Debian testing with XFCE. I have the following packages
installed:

$ dpkg -l | grep octave
ii  liboctave6:amd64  4.4.1-5
ii  octave4.4.1-5
ii  octave-bsltl  1.1.1-2
ii  octave-common 4.4.1-5
ii  octave-doc4.4.1-5
ii  octave-image  2.10.0-2

On octave, i enter the following commands:

x = linspace(0, 2*pi);
a = cos(2*x);
plot(x, a);

Then, a window appears with menus, but the drawing is completely blank.

I get some font errors. I don't know if they affect the graph:

warning: ft_manager: unable to load font:
/usr/share/fonts/opentype/freefont/FreeSans.otf
warning: called from
axes at line 66 column 10
newplot at line 158 column 10
plot at line 222 column 9
warning: ft_text_renderer: unable to load appropriate font

It seems I'm using Qt for graphics but my system seems to have all
libqt5* packages installed. I also tried gnuplot graphics and the
window was also blank.

Am I missing packages?

Can I configure octave to use other fonts instead?
-- 
Bruno Schneider

Re: just mail forwarding to smart mailer

[Celejar]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 22:17:44 +0900
황병희  wrote:

> > I am looking for an "easy light weight just empty the local queue and
> 
> Very very very easy thing: https://wiki.debian.org/sSMTP

Note that sSMTP does not perform server certificate verification, thus
allowing, e.g., credential stealing via MITM attacks. Furthermore, it
neglects to document this failing, although we're working on this ;)

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=662960

Celejar

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

> "R" == Reco   writes:


R> As we saw two weeks ago, the decision to run GNOME on Wayland
R> backfired at synaptic. To rephrase, why bother running X if there
R> are no applications left to run on X?

Because I like and I use a lot remote display. Because I prefer it
user program.

If you have only your machine, having or not having "network
transparency" does not matter. If you live in a network, it matters.

>> Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo
>> dialect?"

R> Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
R> translation. Same as everyone else.

Theoretically true. I have no idea on how well did perform "feature
rewards"

R> ... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me
R> GNOME project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one)
R> long time ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is
R> harder than avoiding it.

And that's usually my option.

>> Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.

R> I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating
R> System who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for
R> logo. Some say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an
R> unspecified amount of unconventional off-market negotiations and a
R> bag of dirty tricks.

And a band of rebels gathering around a penguin totem in the name of
freedom. 

Gnome at least should not chain them in proprietary software.

R> The way things go right now with the GNOME all those impressive
R> tricks will be obsolete. Unless, of course, some kind soul moves
R> that "sway" thing from the experimental to sid.  Because AFAIK
R> there are only four "Wayland window managers" (it's techically
R> incorrect to call them that, I know), and only two of them made
R> into buster so far (GNOME's mutter and weston, the reference one).

Add one more reason to use X.

I use WindowMaker. My wife Afterstep maybe.

Our next project is re-building a new box that plays videos[*] in
sequence. The box has to play a video, them a short slideshow, then a
video...

Proto version is my laptop. 4 kg and lately has some issues with booting.

First production version, made by my wife, used a custom AfterStep
configuration to create the interface to start the loop, stop the loop
and stop the machine. Sadly HW died.

Next version should add the feature to add movies and pics from your
phone over Wifi. Recreating the UI because there is no configurable
window manager available is... ahem... undesired.

Give us X, mplayer, the slideshow module from xscreensaver and some django
stuff, and we are ready to run the box.

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

P.S.

[*] for those curious about which videos, here are some:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoamkaBjQ3o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGX3wCTAc5U 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdluU1ROpjI

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 02:30:57PM +0200, Martin Schwarz wrote:
> > slabtop from "procps" package, definitely.
> > Should've thought of it earlier.
> 
> I did take a look at slaptop (and at /proc/slabinfo) before. But since the
> values for "SReclaimable" and "SUnreclaim" from /proc/meminfo are not high
> enough to explain the memory consumption, I didn't investigate any further in
> that direction.
> 
> Looks unsuspicious to me:

Agreed. Nothing here that explains the behaviour observed.


> ['perf top' and 'perf record']
> > It's very indirect method. Basically it shows internal kernel functions
> > used, which may or may not be the source of the leak.
> 
> I'm afraid 'perf' is beyond my knowledge. In its default invocation, 'perf_4.9
> top' seems to be more focussed on CPU usage?

Nope, it's deeper than this. What "perf top" should show by default is
the kernel and userspace library functions called by every kernel thread
and every userspace process. For instance,

  81.98%  [kernel]  [k] load_balance
  18.02%  [kernel]  [k] __tick_nohz_idle_enter
   0.00%  [kernel]  [k] module_get_kallsym

This shows mostly idle OS, and the kernel calls load_balance() 81% of
the time, and __tick_nohz_idle_enter() 18% of the time. It eats CPU, of
course, but CPU consumption is not a concern here. The answer to the
question 'what the kernel does' is.


> And 'perf_4.9 record' is used to profile a certain command?

'perf record -a' in this case. All userspace and the kernel.
Terminate it with Ctrl+C after a minute or two.
Sorry if I didn't mention that.


> Tried with "sleep 30" as command, but not sure how
> to interpret the recording.

'perf report' from the same directory where it wrote "pref.data"
earlier.


> So I'm really unsure how to use them to further drill into kernel or module
> memory usage. Any hints?

Send it here, unless it's classified or somehow private. You'll need
those anyway, because...

> 
> > There's this SystemTap thing that can presumably do it better, but last
> > time I've checked it required a debug version of the kernel (and that's
> > unsuitable for just about anything short of kernel development).
> 
> By then I should probably go to debian-kernel? ;-)

I'd file a bug against linux-image package. You're using only in-tree
kernel modules shipped by Debian. The kernel is obviously misbehaving.
And if they won't answer you in a week (it's a small volunteer team
after all) - then you'll go at debian-kernel with a bug number at hands.

Reco

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Martin Schwarz]

Hello,

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 11:49:57AM +0300, Reco wrote:
> I see nothing unusual short of somewhat low amount of RAM by today's
> standards.
> It's no excuse for the kernel to behave that way, for obvious reasons.

yes, 1 GB is not that much - but should be more than enough for the two
small RADIUSd instances (some 80 MB). Of course, if the workload
requires it, we can assign more RAM. In fact, that was what we first did
when the problem started to show, but this only lasted so long until the
additional RAM was consumed as well - it just takes a bit longer.

> slabtop from "procps" package, definitely.
> Should've thought of it earlier.

I did take a look at slaptop (and at /proc/slabinfo) before. But since the
values for "SReclaimable" and "SUnreclaim" from /proc/meminfo are not high
enough to explain the memory consumption, I didn't investigate any further in
that direction.

Looks unsuspicious to me:

root@rad-wgv-srv01:~# slabtop --once --sort=s | head -15
 Active / Total Objects (% used): 144152 / 186846 (77,2%)
 Active / Total Slabs (% used)  : 11205 / 11206 (100,0%)
 Active / Total Caches (% used) : 66 / 116 (56,9%)
 Active / Total Size (% used)   : 40726,60K / 46301,70K (88,0%)
 Minimum / Average / Maximum Object : 0,02K / 0,25K / 4096,00K

  OBJS ACTIVE  USE OBJ SIZE  SLABS OBJ/SLAB CACHE SIZE NAME   
 0  0   0% 4096,00K  01 0K kmalloc-4194304
 0  0   0% 4096,00K  01 0K dma-kmalloc-4194304
 0  0   0% 2048,00K  01 0K kmalloc-2097152
 0  0   0% 2048,00K  01 0K dma-kmalloc-2097152
 0  0   0% 1024,00K  01 0K kmalloc-1048576
 0  0   0% 1024,00K  01 0K dma-kmalloc-1048576
 0  0   0%  512,00K  01 0K kmalloc-524288 
 0  0   0%  512,00K  01 0K dma-kmalloc-524288 
root@rad-wgv-srv01:~# 

> > Only I can't unload modules that are in use, of course. Unloading
> > vmw_balloon, vmw_vmci, and vmw_vsock_vmci_transport didn't help.
> 
> I doubt that these are the problem. Unless you're changing VM's RAM at
> runtime (and you wrote you don't).

We sometimes do increase a VM's RAM while it is running. But most of the VMs
showing the problem still have their initial memory size from the template they
were deployed from.

['perf top' and 'perf record']
> It's very indirect method. Basically it shows internal kernel functions
> used, which may or may not be the source of the leak.

I'm afraid 'perf' is beyond my knowledge. In its default invocation, 'perf_4.9
top' seems to be more focussed on CPU usage?  And 'perf_4.9 record' is used to
profile a certain command? Tried with "sleep 30" as command, but not sure how
to interpret the recording.

So I'm really unsure how to use them to further drill into kernel or module
memory usage. Any hints?

> There's this SystemTap thing that can presumably do it better, but last
> time I've checked it required a debug version of the kernel (and that's
> unsuitable for just about anything short of kernel development).

By then I should probably go to debian-kernel? ;-)

Thanks again for all your help!

Martin

-- 
Martin Schwarz * Karlsruhe, Germany * http://kuroi.de/

Re: Buster presentation info

[Paul Sutton]

On 15/04/2019 17:38, Paul Sutton wrote:
> On 15/04/2019 09:27, Reco wrote:
>>  Hi.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 08:38:15AM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
>>> Does anyone know the version of Wayland being used?
>> $ dpkg -s libwayland-server0 | grep Version
>> Version: 1.16.0-1
>>
>>> and what other basic info could be included in a technical overview without
>>> overwhelming the viewer ?
>> A shipped browser(s) version, maybe? Firefox, Chromium, those things.
>>
>> Reco

Cool thanks, I have added a version number for Libreoffice and Firefox,
as my Debian install didn't come with Thunderbird by default. Is there a
shipped email client ?

Added a section processor architectures too and tidied other sections up. 

With regard to getting Debian I have listed

Debian Website

Vendors

Linux user groups

Conferences, events etc.

Can anyone think of anything else please

>
> https://github.com/zleap/DebianPresentation/
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
>
-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Jude DaShiell]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, Keith Bainbridge wrote:

> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 02:54:02
> From: Keith Bainbridge 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: A call to drop gnome
> Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 07:12:08 + (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> Good afternoon
>
>
> I've copied 2 bits from the discussion on synaptic and adding my 2 bobs' worth
> towards the next review of whether gnome remains the default desktop.
>
>
>
> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream
> said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.
>
>
>
> On 16/4/19 12:23 am, Jonathan Dowland wrote:>
> > The decision to ship GNOME as the default desktop is regularly
> > revisited: And
> > if a future GNOME release dropped X support altogether, you can be sure
> > that
> > would be a factor in the re-evaluation that would follow.
>
>
> I've never been a fan of gnome, and I can only say that in the beginning it
> was simply because I didn't yet know about themes etc. I settled for KDE, in
> the 1990's.  I now know that it was the slowest of all, but I found my way
> around easiest.
>
> I changed desktops several times over the years, settling on Mate since about
> 2014.
>
> I'm always looking for a better way, so gave gnome a run. It lasted until I
> found that I am not meant to be able to put the tool-bar where I like it. It
> is possible, but...   Smacks of os/x desktop; some flexibility, but
> not everything is changeable. (Gore, even MS allows me to move the tool-bar.)
>
> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video process,
> just because the team have decided to like it lots.
>
> I say this is NOT freedom.
>
> Of course new users accept the defaults on a fresh install - I guess that like
> me 20 years ago, they presume the defaults will work best.
>
>
> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not just as
> the default desktop) until they encourage freedom. Will I ever try it again
> when it is a truly free?  Probably - in the name of looking for a better way.
> Never know - there maybe something that changes my computing life totally.
>
>
> By the bye, it's 16:52, and Autumn in my back yard. There are leaves all over
> our footpaths.
>
>
>

-- 

Wayland if what I read on debian-accessibility list is correct has
unsolved screen reader accessibility problems.  Since I came into Linux
mostly using the command line such a switch would have a limited impact
since when I do use any part of the graphical user interface environment
it's to do things the command line environment can't.  I have X with mate
running on this machine now and a case in point came up yesterday.
Logging into youtube-viewer has to be done with a graphical browser since
the command line alternatives do not do javascript.  Now the log in url
google requires is over 200 characters long which is no picnic typing.
So with the help of others on the blinux-list I came up with a set of
instructions to get this done.  For me, only possible since X works as
well as it now does.  So unless or until Wayland gets its accessibility
act cleaned up, removal of X will not be a minor event for me and others
in the screen reader accessibility user community.  Linux is getting more
and more like Microsoft in this respect.  Those who used to use MSdos 6.22
and remember what happened afterwards with MSDOS 7.0 with Microsoft and
how Microsoft mishandled that know what I'm talking about here.  Earlier
much in Linux was based on real choices users could make now Linus
Torvalds is arguing for standardization of the linux desktop.  Earlier I
worked for the Navy before NMCI came into existence and that was back in
the day when depending on what base you called home you'd likely be
running different software and different operating systems.  That
non-standardization from a security perspective probably made it more
difficult for the malware writers to do their work.  With NMCI and what
NMCI emanated it's either a specific version of windows or Linux for the
really important equipment system-wide.

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:38:38AM +, Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> > "R" == Reco   writes:

I *have* to object to this ☺ In C this comparison equals false.
Have you meant '"R" = Reco' (i.e. assignment)?


> R> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to
> R> run GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable
> R> Debian.  Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that
> R> everyone use the GNOME that way.
> 
> As long as using X is supported without requiring triple backward
> sommersault to install it, fine. Almost fine. Because HW support stuff
> should be independent from the user front end.

As we saw two weeks ago, the decision to run GNOME on Wayland backfired
at synaptic. To rephrase, why bother running X if there are no
applications left to run on X?


> >> I say this is NOT freedom.
> 
> R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
> R> welcome. 
> 
> Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo dialect?"

Nope. But I can pay to someone who does, assuming that I want such
translation. Same as everyone else.


> That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
> thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought, then
> you have to understando how the program works and how to change
> it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
> existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.

... and there are those who did it already. But then again, for me GNOME
project went off-rails (usability POV, not a technical one) long time
ago. Patching the GNOME to restore sane behaviour is harder than
avoiding it.


> Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it.

I recall hearing similar rhetoric 25 years ago. Some Operating System
who's name starts with big W, and it had 4-color flag for logo. Some
say that rise in popularity of said OS involved an unspecified amount of
unconventional off-market negotiations and a bag of dirty tricks.


> But there are other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who knows,
> time and wishing nevertheless that some option was available, say,
> running WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons.

A neat idea BTW.


> And for those there should be at least a good document about doing
> it.

Agreed.


> And not leaving them being forced to do something like a "triple
> backward sommersault" for doing these changes.

The way things go right now with the GNOME all those impressive tricks
will be obsolete. Unless, of course, some kind soul moves that "sway"
thing from the experimental to sid.
Because AFAIK there are only four "Wayland window managers" (it's
techically incorrect to call them that, I know), and only two of them
made into buster so far (GNOME's mutter and weston, the reference one).

Reco

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

> "AS" == Andy Smith  writes:

AS> Hello, On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge
AS> wrote:
>> I say this is NOT freedom.
>> 
>> Of course new users accept the defaults on a fresh install - I
>> guess that like me 20 years ago, they presume the defaults will
>> work best.
>> 
>> 
>> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option
>> (not just as the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.

AS> Just so I understand correctly, is this a serious request to
AS> remove the freedom of the current GNOME user base to install it,
AS> in order to encourage the GNOME project to be more free?

I think that is more "let there an option to have a desktop machine
without gnome as default". Something like this:

"Gnome Desktop (suggested)"
"Desktop box w/o gnome (brave experienced users"). 

The second option should probably ask for more options.

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

> "R" == Reco   writes:

R> No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to
R> run GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable
R> Debian.  Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that
R> everyone use the GNOME that way.

As long as using X is supported without requiring triple backward
sommersault to install it, fine. Almost fine. Because HW support stuff
should be independent from the user front end.

>> I say this is NOT freedom.

R> The usual arguments apply.  Don't like it - patch it. Patches are
R> welcome. 

Say, "can you translate Odissey from ancient greek to Rovigo dialect?"

That is a petty example (if you can, my kudos!), patching is not a
thing this easy to do. You have to be a programmer good enought, then
you have to understando how the program works and how to change
it. Then you have to write the changes and possibly test it against
existing test cases, it requires skills, it requires time.

Gnome goal is noble, to let unskilled users use it. But there are
other users, not this unskilled but lacking, who knows, time and
wishing nevertheless that some option was available, say, running
WindowMaker on top of Gnome daemons. And for those there should be at
least a good document about doing it. And not leaving them being
forced to do something like a "triple backward sommersault" for doing
these changes.

This is more a "distribution level" choice, like "install Debian
Desktop something like a (better and improved) 1999 machine", at
least with the configuration working the old way.

It is not easy, it requires resources too. But these are my two cents.

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

Profesjonalny FanPage na Facebooku

[Dawid Jasek | Twój Facebook]

Dzień dobry, 

 Kontaktuję się z Państwem, ponieważ jestem świadomy, jak ważny jest obecnie 
profesjonalnie prowadzony *Fanpage* na *Facebook’u*. 

 W związku z powyższym, będzie mi miło, jeżeli wyrazicie Państwo zgodę na 
przesłanie niezobowiązującej propozycji na ten temat.

 Aby wyrazić zgodę, proszę o przesłanie słowa _*TAK*_w odpowiedzi na tego 
e-maila. 

 Pozdrawiam Serdecznie,
Dawid Jasek
Marketing Manager

Re: but it's not going to be installed

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-16 08:39, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 08:45:09PM +0100, mick crane wrote:

I typed
"apt install mypaint"
mypaint depends on mypaint-data but it's not going to be installed
seen that mypaint-data was there so
"apt install mypaint-data"
...installs OK
"apt install mypaint"
no complaints
what's that all about then ?


This is normally due to Apt having multiple Debian suites to choose 
from
(e.g. stable and unstable) but having preferences and/or "pinning" set 
up

so that it does not want to install the dependencies of mypaint.

The approach you took (manually select mypaint-data) works, and could 
have

been done on the same command (apt install mypaint mypaint-data).

If you would like to investigate further, can you share the output of
"apt policy"?


would the brave-apt stretch line cause problems with software other than 
brave browser which I don't really use ?

:~$ apt policy
Package files:
 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
 release a=now
 500 https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/brave-apt stretch/main amd64 
Packages

 release o=. stretch,a=stretch,n=stretch,l=. stretch,c=main,b=amd64
 origin s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/contrib i386 Packages
 release o=Debian,a=testing,n=buster,l=Debian,c=contrib,b=i386
 origin deb.debian.org
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/contrib amd64 Packages
 release o=Debian,a=testing,n=buster,l=Debian,c=contrib,b=amd64
 origin deb.debian.org
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main i386 Packages
 release o=Debian,a=testing,n=buster,l=Debian,c=main,b=i386
 origin deb.debian.org
 500 http://deb.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
 release o=Debian,a=testing,n=buster,l=Debian,c=main,b=amd64
 origin deb.debian.org
Pinned packages:

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:22:16AM +0200, Martin Schwarz wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 07:03:13PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> [...]
> > What I suspect is happening here is runaway memory allocation by a
> > kernel module (at least one of them), and said kernel module is likely
> > to be VMWare-specific.
> > It could be vmxnet3 (network). It could be that LSI kernel module or
> > whatever they're using for SCSI these days (vmw_pvscsi?).
> 
> sounds interesting.
> 
> That would explain why I haven't seen this problem on one of my (few)
> personal Stretch installations running as Xen DomU. But then, I guess
> we're not the only ones who use Debian Stretch on VMware ESXi ;-)
> but haven't found any mention of this problem. I wonder what makes our
> setup so special ...

I see nothing unusual short of somewhat low amount of RAM by today's
standards.
It's no excuse for the kernel to behave that way, for obvious reasons.


> Here's the outout from lsmod:

Nothing unexpected here.


> Is there a way to show the memory consumed by each module? (besides the
> 'perf' tool you recommend below)

slabtop from "procps" package, definitely.
Should've thought of it earlier.


> Would memory consumed by a module be released when the module is
> unloaded? I guess so.

Barring kernel memory leaks - yes. Yep, they "invented" them too.
A price to pay if you write a kernel in C.


> Only I can't unload modules that are in use, of course. Unloading
> vmw_balloon, vmw_vmci, and vmw_vsock_vmci_transport didn't help.

I doubt that these are the problem. Unless you're changing VM's RAM at
runtime (and you wrote you don't).
If you can unload it - it's not used, hence no kernel memory allocations
worthy of speaking.


> > And that means - 'perf top', or better yet - 'perf record'.
> 
> I have never used perf before, will look into it.

It's very indirect method. Basically it shows internal kernel functions
used, which may or may not be the source of the leak.

There's this SystemTap thing that can presumably do it better, but last
time I've checked it required a debug version of the kernel (and that's
unsuitable for just about anything short of kernel development).

Reco

Re: Need help analyzing (kernel?) memory usage and reclaiming RAM (Debian Stretch)

[Martin Schwarz]

Hello,

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 07:03:13PM +0300, Reco wrote:
[...]
> What I suspect is happening here is runaway memory allocation by a
> kernel module (at least one of them), and said kernel module is likely
> to be VMWare-specific.
> It could be vmxnet3 (network). It could be that LSI kernel module or
> whatever they're using for SCSI these days (vmw_pvscsi?).

sounds interesting.

That would explain why I haven't seen this problem on one of my (few)
personal Stretch installations running as Xen DomU. But then, I guess
we're not the only ones who use Debian Stretch on VMware ESXi ;-)
but haven't found any mention of this problem. I wonder what makes our
setup so special ...

Yes, we're using vmw_pvscsi (VMware Paravirtual SCSI controller).

Here's the outout from lsmod:

msch@rad-wgv-srv01:~$ lsmod 
Module  Size  Used by
tcp_diag   16384  0
inet_diag  20480  1 tcp_diag
ppdev  20480  0
vmw_balloon20480  0
joydev 20480  0
evdev  24576  1
pcspkr 16384  0
serio_raw  16384  0
vmwgfx237568  1
ttm98304  1 vmwgfx
drm_kms_helper155648  1 vmwgfx
sg 32768  0
drm   360448  4 vmwgfx,ttm,drm_kms_helper
shpchp 36864  0
parport_pc 28672  0
parport49152  2 parport_pc,ppdev
ac 16384  0
button 16384  0
vmw_vsock_vmci_transport28672  0
vsock  36864  1 vmw_vsock_vmci_transport
vmw_vmci   69632  2 vmw_balloon,vmw_vsock_vmci_transport
ip_tables  24576  0
x_tables   36864  1 ip_tables
autofs440960  2
ext4  585728  3
crc16  16384  1 ext4
jbd2  106496  1 ext4
crc32c_generic 16384  0
fscrypto   28672  1 ext4
ecb16384  0
glue_helper16384  0
lrw16384  0
gf128mul   16384  1 lrw
ablk_helper16384  0
cryptd 24576  1 ablk_helper
aes_x86_64 20480  0
mbcache16384  4 ext4
dm_mod118784  16
sr_mod 24576  0
cdrom  61440  1 sr_mod
sd_mod 49152  2
ata_generic16384  0
crc32c_intel   24576  6
psmouse   135168  0
vmxnet361440  0
ata_piix   36864  0
vmw_pvscsi 24576  1
i2c_piix4  24576  0
libata249856  2 ata_piix,ata_generic
scsi_mod  225280  5 sd_mod,libata,sr_mod,sg,vmw_pvscsi
floppy 69632  0
msch@rad-wgv-srv01:~$ 

Is there a way to show the memory consumed by each module? (besides the
'perf' tool you recommend below)

Would memory consumed by a module be released when the module is
unloaded? I guess so. Only I can't unload modules that are in use, of
course. Unloading vmw_balloon, vmw_vmci, and vmw_vsock_vmci_transport
didn't help.

> And that means - 'perf top', or better yet - 'perf record'.

I have never used perf before, will look into it.

Thanks a lot for your insight!

Martin

-- 
Martin Schwarz * Karlsruhe, Germany * http://kuroi.de/

Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:38:12PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

Both DFSee and IBM
BM use the last sector on the first track for data storage, including useful
cataloging data. Even when not having IBM BM installed, its data sector is
(optionally) used by DFSee, by me, always.


So I gather that you believe DFSee (or some functionality of DFSee that you
rely upon) is incompatible with LVM. But I didn't understand this particular
point about the last sector on the first track… is that a region of a physical
drive prior to the first physical partition (assuming an MBR partitioning
scheme)? This alone would not prevent you using LVM, which one would typically
layer on top of traditional partitions.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Stretch with MATE DE - odd new file association problem

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 16.04.2019 12:08, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:39:06AM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
>> You can add SeaMonkey config manually if you want, but you will have to
>> track the changes after that.
>>     $ sudo update-alternatives --install /usr/bin/x-www-browser
>> x-www-browser /your/path/to/seamonkey 100
> I don't have seamonkey installed so haven't tried myself, but does
> it even run as root?
>
I don't use SeaMonkey either, but I'm pretty sure it does not need root
privileges to run. :)
What command does is simply add an option to set "default something" for
a command "x-www-browser" system-wide.

"update-alternatives" could used for anything from switching between
your console editors to switching between multiple versions of compilers
or interpreters.
It is a standard way to do things like that on Linux systems not only on
Debian, but also on the others (CentOS, etc)


-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: INFO: task blocked for more than 120 seconds

[steve]

Le 15-04-2019, à 22:24:20 +0200, Étienne Mollier a écrit :


Bonjour,

steve, au 2019-04-15 :

Vraiment désolé, à l'envoi ça semblait correct.


Ce n'est pas très grave; on a qu'a dire que ça a justifié le
démarrage de mon éditeur de texte préféré.  :)


Sympa de le prendre comme ça :)


Le 12-04-2019, à 20:01:17 +0200, Étienne Mollier a écrit :
> steve, au 2019-04-12 :
> > 1 box kernel: [ 3988.692314]   Tainted: P   OE ...
>  ^~~
> Le noyau est teinté, quelle en est la cause ?  (ce devrait être
> indiqué quelque part dans la sortie de `dmesg`.)


driver nvidia proprio.


Bon, au moins on en a le cœur net, la teinture n'avait rien de
vraiment pertinent, sauf malchance.


> Si un sous système corrompt le noyau, alors il n'est peut-être
> pas nécessaire de chercher plus loin, et juste de le
> désactiver.

Je pourrais en effet essayer le driver libre « nouveau ». Mais la
dernière fois que j'ai essayé, ce n'était vraiment pas très concluant.


Ça vaudrait peut-être quand même le coup de voir si le noyau est
toujours teinté sans ce pilote, et si le problème se pose à
nouveau.


Oui.


Sinon, plus prosaïquement, dans quel état se trouve le Raid
actuellement ?  Est-il toujours partiel ou bien le remplacement
du disque en panne a eu lieu ?  (cat /proc/mdstat)


J'avais trois disques dans la grappe dont un spare qui a pris du service
quand j'ai débranché le disque défectueux.

$ cat /proc/mdstat
Personalities : [raid1] [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid6] [raid5] [raid4] 
[raid10]
md1 : active raid1 sdb5[2] sde5[3]
 117120896 blocks super 1.2 [2/2] [UU]

md2 : active raid1 sdb6[2] sde6[3]
 97589120 blocks super 1.2 [2/2] [UU]

md0 : active raid1 sdb1[2] sde1[3]
 19514240 blocks super 1.2 [2/2] [UU]

unused devices: 


Donc ok.

J'ai acheté un disque supplémentaire mais n'ai pas encore eu le temps de
l'installer.





Le 15-04-2019, à 17:11:22 +0200, Daniel Caillibaud a écrit :
> Il faudrait demander à mdadm d'être plus bavard quand il a un pb, mais je
> sais pas trop comment.

Rien dans la page man.


L'essentiel du verbe provient surtout de la sortie de `dmesg`.
Peut-être que des messages intéressants apparaissent au moment
de l'assemblage ?


$ dmesg | grep -i raid
[2.196649] md/raid1:md2: active with 2 out of 2 mirrors
[2.196906] md/raid1:md1: active with 2 out of 2 mirrors
[2.197262] md/raid1:md0: active with 2 out of 2 mirrors
[3.505941] raid6: sse2x1   gen() 11776 MB/s
[3.573938] raid6: sse2x1   xor() 11147 MB/s
[3.641939] raid6: sse2x2   gen() 18466 MB/s
[3.709938] raid6: sse2x2   xor() 12826 MB/s
[3.777939] raid6: sse2x4   gen() 20535 MB/s
[3.845938] raid6: sse2x4   xor() 14214 MB/s
[3.913939] raid6: avx2x1   gen() 29727 MB/s
[3.981936] raid6: avx2x1   xor() 21553 MB/s
[4.049938] raid6: avx2x2   gen() 34915 MB/s
[4.117936] raid6: avx2x2   xor() 23875 MB/s
[4.185936] raid6: avx2x4   gen() 37470 MB/s
[4.253936] raid6: avx2x4   xor() 23632 MB/s
[4.321939] raid6: avx512x1 gen() 35605 MB/s
[4.389937] raid6: avx512x1 xor() 19965 MB/s
[4.457938] raid6: avx512x2 gen() 44244 MB/s
[4.525937] raid6: avx512x2 xor() 24960 MB/s
[4.593937] raid6: avx512x4 gen() 50744 MB/s
[4.661938] raid6: avx512x4 xor() 20318 MB/s
[4.661938] raid6: using algorithm avx512x4 gen() 50744 MB/s
[4.661939] raid6:  xor() 20318 MB/s, rmw enabled
[4.661939] raid6: using avx512x2 recovery algorithm


Rien qui semble anormal (à part ces mentions de raid6 que je n'utilise
pas).

Merci encore.

Steve

Re: A call to drop gnome

[tomas]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> Good afternoon

[...]

> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's
> upstream said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.

As Reco said, this wasn't me.

> I've never been a fan of gnome [...]

Similar for me (well, I was a fan shortly up to Gnome 2).

[...]

> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video
> process, just because the team have decided to like it lots.

This sentence doesn't make much sense to me. What do you want to
say there?

> I say this is NOT freedom.

Hm.

> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not
> just as the default desktop) [...]

Thanks $DEITY you aren't taking decisions. It seems to me that your
"freedom" would be much more restrictive that what we have now.

Hey. Debian's not perfect, by a long stretch. But anyone can
contribute. Forbidding to package a piece of free software,
as you suggest above, won't fly in Debian, and this is a Good
Thing.

What have you packaged for Debian?

> By the bye, it's 16:52, and Autumn in my back yard. There are leaves
> all over our footpaths.

Amen.

Cheers
-- tomás


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: but it's not going to be installed

[Curt]

On 2019-04-15, Cindy Sue Causey  wrote:

> Apparently for one thing, it's about some kind of package
> conflicts'ISH with GIMP GNU Image Manipulation Program. Via "apt-get
> install --dry-run" mypaint-data, I received the following:
>

There is this year-old bug:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=897909

No problem on Stretch, so you and the OP must be running something else
(a critical precision for problem resolution---maybe I missed it).

Re: Stretch with MATE DE - odd new file association problem

[didier gaumet]

Le 15/04/2019 à 23:05, Richard Owlett a écrit :
[...]
>> root@fromdell:/home/richard# update-alternatives --config
>> gnome-www-browser
>> There is only one alternative in link group gnome-www-browser
>> (providing /usr/bin/gnome-www-browser): /usr/bin/firefox-esr
>> Nothing to configure.
>> root@fromdell:/home/richard#
> 
> That tells me "something"   P.S  but what?

That, strictly speaking, your system knows only firefox-esr as an
alternative.
Since Seamonkey is not packaged by Debian, when you install it, the
installation procedure does not declare it as an alternative, so you
have to do it yourself.

> Educate me -- What should I be reading?

man update-alternatives (I guess --set and then --config commands, not sure)

or you may use galternatives (GUI) that would be easier to add Seamonkey
as an alternative X-&-Gnome-browser and declare it the default.

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> I say this is NOT freedom.
> 
> Of course new users accept the defaults on a fresh install - I guess that
> like me 20 years ago, they presume the defaults will work best.
> 
> 
> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not just as
> the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.

Just so I understand correctly, is this a serious request to remove
the freedom of the current GNOME user base to install it, in order
to encourage the GNOME project to be more free?

As in, it is not enough that an ignorant GNOME user might stumble
across something they can't configure and decide to explore other
desktop environments: they must be prevented from initially using
GNOME, instead being forcibly introduced to some other DE and only
able to use GNOME by installing it later with the package manager?

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but if I haven't, which DE do you
think should be the new default? Would it be Mate as you use now, or
some other?

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: A call to drop gnome

[Reco]

Hi.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:54:02PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> On 15/4/19 9:31 pm, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:> Because GNOME. GNOME's upstream
> said their word loud and clear, and that
> > word is - 'thou shall use Wayland for it is our favorite toy now'.

I wrote it, in reply to Thomas e-mail. Please watch who you quote.


> Now Tomas quips about gnome is insisting that we like a new video process,
> just because the team have decided to like it lots.

No. What I wrote that for several years you had the possibility to run
GNOME on Wayland. And it will be the default in the next stable Debian.
Because (and here you're correct) - upstream wants that everyone use the
GNOME that way.

You have the ability to run GNOME over X. For now. I predicted that such
ability may disappear in unspecified future (probably - years). Because
GNOME upstream is (in)famous for feature removal.


> I say this is NOT freedom.

The usual arguments apply.
Don't like it - patch it. Patches are welcome. They have the commit bit
- you do not. Etc.
And yes, there are some who did exactly that - Mate DE, Cinnamon DE to
name a few examples.


> So, I am asking that gnome be dropped as an installation option (not
> just as the default desktop) until they encourage freedom.

There's an appropriate place for such wishes, it's called
https://bugs.debian.org.

Reco

Re: but it's not going to be installed

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 08:45:09PM +0100, mick crane wrote:

I typed
"apt install mypaint"
mypaint depends on mypaint-data but it's not going to be installed
seen that mypaint-data was there so
"apt install mypaint-data"
...installs OK
"apt install mypaint"
no complaints
what's that all about then ?


This is normally due to Apt having multiple Debian suites to choose from
(e.g. stable and unstable) but having preferences and/or "pinning" set up
so that it does not want to install the dependencies of mypaint.

The approach you took (manually select mypaint-data) works, and could have
been done on the same command (apt install mypaint mypaint-data).

If you would like to investigate further, can you share the output of
"apt policy"?

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.