Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Tue, Aug 10, 2021 at 02:51:02AM +0200, Linux-Fan wrote:
> I think that switching support over to a different medium i.e. from e-
> mail to Q will see a different sort of user participating.
> Hence, the "community" one would find on the Q site is not there yet. This
> explains why it would not be used much (initially) even if there was a lot
> of advertisement.

If we are talking about the pool of people asking the questions and
answering them, I'm not sure that so many would be left behind. I do
get the impression that those new to Linux do feel pretty
comfortable on web sites and less so on email lists. I actually know
a lot of people in their 20s and 30s now who don't really have an
email address, only for use as credentials on web sites!

I don't want to harp on about it but Ask Ubuntu does some good
numbers on daily answers marked solved. Also I've spotted quite a
few names from here on some of those Stack sites. :-)

If the new people don't actually know the thing exists it won't get
used though.

The other kind of participant, who's here mainly for debate, will I
guess still be here debating. Which I don't see as a problem.

> As far as I can tell, Debian's development communication mostly uses e-mail
> (for bugs, mailing lists, announcements) and IRC (for real-time
> communication e.g. release testing). Hence it seems only natural that e-mail
> and IRC would be the primary means to ask for help, too. The idea behind
> this is (in theory?) that the developers use the same means of communication
> as the users.

The first thing I would say to that though is that all those places
have much more rigidly defined topics than here. I don't know about
IRC, but I'm in many of those other places and off-topicness isn't
much of a problem there. Neither do they tend to see an influx of
low experience new users.

For discussion, email is king, I'm with you there, never do get on
well with web forums. I really like to see topics enforced though.

It's interesting that even in the extremely technical community of
Linux kernel development, there is increasing call for patch
submission and management by web interface rather than email:

https://lwn.net/Articles/811528/
https://lwn.net/Articles/860607/

(I mention this only as an aside and don't see it as really relevant
when talking about user support.)

> Where does the notion that the mailing list is the primary support channel
> stem from?

Personally I see people being pointed to it all the time when they
ask user-level questions in some other Debian email space.

I've been on IRC since 1995 but I don't hang around in any of the
mainstream Debian channels so I'm not aware of what they're like.

I can well imagine that someone looking for assistance does a search
and finds https://www.debian.org/support where the first part talks
about a thing that seems obscure and requires software they probably
never used before. The next one down is email, and everyone's heard
of email even if they only use it to log in to Netflix.

> I even tried out Reddit for a few weeks but noticing how much data they
> collect just by my clicks on up/down and choice of topics to read is quite a
> revelation. Both, mailing-lists and IRC are in a way more public that
> everything one sends is published for all to read but also more private in
> that what one does not intend to send (which messages I read and how long I
> take for it for instance) stays private.

I do think it is important for Debian to self-host where it can. The
privacy aspect is critical as so many third party web services are
primarily about selling the users' personal data and their activity
than the actual service they purport to provide.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 06:05:58PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> > So that's where I think the problems are and why I think it would be
> > good to try separating the user support from the debate club.
> 
> I'm afraid this conversation is a waste of time.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It has felt quite frustrating having to
repeat myself when I thought I was being clear about what I meant.
But, I do believe that at least you have got across how you see the
purpose and nature of debian-user, so we have at least seen some
more perspectives - thanks!

My last reply was sent before I saw this one, and is not an attempt
to prolong a conversation that you don't want to have.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:22:46PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 10-08-2021 09:01, Andy Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 10:19:19PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> >> I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in favour of an
> >> alternate solution or else to make it strictly for Debian-related
> >> posts only.
> > 
> > I want to walk this one back a bit as there's no need to destroy the
> > community that exists here already by forcing it to move elsewhere.
> 
> Oh, I don't think you'll achieve that.

Just wanted to clarify that it isn't something that I want to see
happen.

> > What I meant to say is that I think it'd be best if debian-user
> > continue to exist as it is while having its support element covered
> > by some other thing, and that be consistently documented throughout
> > Debian's documentation and websites wherever debian-user currently
> > is pointed to.
> 
> By all means, if you see that as desirable, go ahead and initiate it.
> If things are a little quiet, you'll find us here.

I did mention that the Stack site idea, although it has been partially
tried out at least two times by various Debian Developers, had no
success and would not see success without a concerted effort by the
project to direct users there.

Clearly I'm not in a position to go editing Debian's web sites. I'm
guessing any such wiki edit would get reverted if it tried to
suggest something as being preferable to debian-user, so I'm not in
a position to do more than suggest.

I have tried to help out those last two times there was an Stack
site thing launched though, so if any DD does so again I will try
again with you.

> I'm sorry, but I find it extremely difficult to equate the term
> `community' with that of `rigid, militant conformity'.

If you take discussion lists like debian-devel or debian-project as
examples, these are places that have a much more rigid definition of
topic than debian-user, and yet are also community spaces.

Occasionally posters get very off-topic on debian-project for
example and are told, on-list, to restrict their posting to being
about the Debian project. No one seems to find this to be militant
conformity. The posters tend to obey.

I find debian-user to be quite rare amongst Debian spaces in the
lack of its topic focus. I know that it has always been like that, I
just don't think that works well for the support aspect.

Again going back to Ask Ubuntu — mainly because it's both a Stack
site and a Debian derivative so being a support venue answering
questions much like we do here on debian-user — you couldn't really
say it is an community in and of itself. I expect there are
forum-like sections of it for those so inclined but I've never
wanted to look into that. While it is a part of the Ubuntu community
and covered by the same code of conduct etc., community is not
really evident or emphasised there and I don't think that it needs
to be, for that narrow purpose.

I think I've made a mistake in not being clear that I would suggest
taking the support element out of debian-user and then apply the
rigid rules to wherever that went, leaving debian-user as it is.
Instead I've talked like debian-user should be shut down and
re-opened in a completely different manner. I can see how that could
ruffle feathers and it was unintentional.

> I should respectfully suggest that this list be employed after all
> of them have been exhausted for an answer. Post your question,
> after checking the archives, and follow only that thread in order
> to avoid all the other aspects you see as undesirable.
> In this way, I believe any injury to your sensibilities can be easily
> avoided.

Do you see this as advice that belongs on the Debian web site next
to any directions towards debian-user? Just so the users are clear
what sort of experience awaits them?

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Weaver]

On 10-08-2021 10:59, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
>> > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
>> > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
>> > find; there's just so many of them.
>>
>> That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
>> situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
>> required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
>> accurately.
>> Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.
> 
> I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in
> excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't
> conducive to user support.
> 
> And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a
> conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting
> other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become
> totally unrelated to Debian and its use.
> 
> For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to
> spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just
> saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these
> out right now.
> 
>> Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything  not Debian related
>> within each email?
> 
> I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes,
> not while this is the support venue.
> 
>> Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
>> `Debian-related'?
> 
> I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not
> asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not
> talking about normal conversational responses to support queries
> being banned.
> 
> I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from
> being about Debian.
> 
>> Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
>> lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.
>>
>> > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
>> > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
>> > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
>> > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.
>>
>> And who isn't?
> 
> Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem
> that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do
> think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't
> think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere.
> 
>> > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
>> > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
>> > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
>> > who come across it.
>>
>> No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
>> `moderators'.
>> The format changes nothing.
> 
> I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said
> "moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation,
> which on a Stack site is mostly the community.
> 
> I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive
> comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the
> format changes nothing.
> 
>> You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
>> see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.
> 
> The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place
> publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread
> is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment.
> 
> We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable,
> ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support
> question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one
> manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but
> putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good
> that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being
> delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction
> just has the weight of one email in a thread.
> 
> Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at
> all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post
> just as often as you can.
> 
> A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a
> good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so
> well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who
> hammers their point home most forcefully or most often.
> 
> The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality
> answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage
> in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the
> best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns
> in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is
> better for it.
> 
>> > There are good reasons why most 

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:06:43PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
> > I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
> > that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
> > find; there's just so many of them.
> 
> That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
> situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
> required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
> accurately.
> Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.

I'm saying that the number of off-topics posts here is often well in
excess of the number of on-topic ones, and that I think it isn't
conducive to user support.

And by "off-topic" I'm not talking about just replying in a
conversational tone, or asking for clarifications, or suggesting
other solutions or anything like that. I mean posts that become
totally unrelated to Debian and its use.

For the purposes of this conversation I do think these are easy to
spot. I do understand that you feel these aren't an issue. I'm just
saying why I don't think there's a need to specifically call these
out right now.

> Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything  not Debian related
> within each email?

I think it would be best if such things were not posted here, yes,
not while this is the support venue.

> Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
> `Debian-related'?

I would really have hoped that it would be obvious that I'm not
asking for people to be impolite or discourteous; that I'm not
talking about normal conversational responses to support queries
being banned.

I'm talking about things that have drifted completely away from
being about Debian.

> Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
> lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.
> 
> > I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
> > situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
> > think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
> > opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.
> 
> And who isn't?

Well, this bit was in response to you saying, "if there's a problem
that requires resolution…" so was just me reiterating that I do
think there is, but that I do understand that plenty of people don't
think there is. i.e. this has not just come out of nowhere.

> > Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
> > tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
> > better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
> > who come across it.
> 
> No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
> `moderators'.
> The format changes nothing.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. When I said
"moderated" here, I meant by the people doing the moderation,
which on a Stack site is mostly the community.

I do find that quite effective in making poor answers and disruptive
comments less visible on such sites, so I can't agree that the
format changes nothing.

> You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
> see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.

The idea that it would be necessary to put a clown in their place
publicly and with the same visibility as other posts in the thread
is something that feels to me most toxic in a support environment.

We've all been there - someone posts a silly, inadvisable,
ill-thought out or downright incorrect response to a support
question. One feels compelled to post a correction. Hopefully one
manages to do so without being overly offensive or cruel, but
putting a clown in their place can go that way sometimes. It's good
that the correction was delivered, less so if it ended up being
delivered in an offensive way, but even after that, the correction
just has the weight of one email in a thread.

Often times, the worst clowns are convinced they aren't clowns at
all. They will double down on their wrongness, and they can post
just as often as you can.

A lot of the time it needs experienced users to spot what is a
good answer (or good advice) and what is bad. It doesn't work so
well to go by who delivers the most devastating come-back or who
hammers their point home most forcefully or most often.

The Stack sites I frequent do seem to benefit from poor quality
answers and comments being moderated away. People can still engage
in back and forth conflict but what most people consider to be the
best answers float to the top. There isn't much need to place clowns
in their place for all to see and I think the support experience is
better for it.

> > There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
> > search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
> > Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.
> 
> Quite often that's the case, and so it should be.

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Linux-Fan]

Andy Smith writes:


Hello,

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 11:35:15AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> any ideas on how to make the situation better?

To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
Stack Overflow-like site. The chief advantages of such sites are
that posted problems are narrowed down to contain the required
information, and answers are ranked so as to make poor answers (and
ultimately, disruptive posters) disappear. Ask Ubuntu. I think,
works well.


The primary disadvantage of Q sites from my limited experience with  
StackOverflow is that they often fail to recognize XY-problems. Debian-user  
is pretty good at helping people to re-phrase their question to actually  
arrive at and solve the underlying question. I have seen numerous Q  
where the immediate problem was answered but the solution was convoluted,  
insecure or in some other way dissatisfying and that mostly because the  
initial question was not open enough to allow for the technically correct  
answer to be given.



There have been a few attempts to set up such sites for Debian, so


[...]


The previous attempts have sort of started as an announcement that
such a site is available, but not followed up by any level of
advertising on Debian's web site. The announcement threads on the
mailing lists then got dominated by arguments from the same small
group of people loudly and repeatedly arguing how they would never
use or support such a thing. That's fine, but without a way to
continually advertise a site as a support venue, it will not get
used.


A classic chicken-egg problem :)

Also, I think that switching support over to a different medium i.e. from e- 
mail to Q will see a different sort of user participating. Hence,  
the "community" one would find on the Q site is not there yet. This  
explains why it would not be used much (initially) even if there was a lot  
of advertisement.


[...]


So in summary, I don't think any of the things that would be
necessary to improve the way this list works are going to be popular
with the regular posters, while starting over with a different
solution requires consensus and support from the Debian project that
has up until now not been there.


As far as I can tell, Debian's development communication mostly uses e-mail  
(for bugs, mailing lists, announcements) and IRC (for real-time  
communication e.g. release testing). Hence it seems only natural that e-mail  
and IRC would be the primary means to ask for help, too. The idea behind  
this is (in theory?) that the developers use the same means of communication  
as the users.


Whether the combination of IRC+e-mail is still “up to date” with practices  
from younger free software projects can still be debated. I have read  
articles claiming that participating in Linux kernel development is  
hard because they are not tracking their development using Github issues  
whereas most other projects today are easily reachable this way. The same  
principle could possibly be applied to Debian development, too.


Btw. as of today, at least three types of support channels are advertised:
https://www.debian.org/support

In that order (not sure if it is related to priority?):
IRC, Mailing lists, Forums

Where does the notion that the mailing list is the primary support channel  
stem from?


~ ~ ~

There are some unlisted discussion and support channels, too.
A community where one can vote up and down:

https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/

I even tried out Reddit for a few weeks but noticing how much data they  
collect just by my clicks on up/down and choice of topics to read is quite  
a revelation. Both, mailing-lists and IRC are in a way more public that  
everything one sends is published for all to read but also more private in  
that what one does not intend to send (which messages I read and how long I  
take for it for instance) stays private.


HTH
Linux-Fan

öö

[...]


pgpKvreXwIXey.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Weaver]

On 10-08-2021 09:01, Andy Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 10:19:19PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
>> I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in favour of an
>> alternate solution or else to make it strictly for Debian-related
>> posts only.
> 
> I want to walk this one back a bit as there's no need to destroy the
> community that exists here already by forcing it to move elsewhere.

Oh, I don't think you'll achieve that.
Please be comforted!

> What I meant to say is that I think it'd be best if debian-user
> continue to exist as it is while having its support element covered
> by some other thing, and that be consistently documented throughout
> Debian's documentation and websites wherever debian-user currently
> is pointed to.

By all means, if you see that as desirable, go ahead and initiate it.
If things are a little quiet, you'll find us here.

> As mentioned, ideally I would see that support function served by a
> Stack Overflow-like web site as I think those are easier to keep
> focused for question-answer purposes. However if a mailing list
> absolutely had to be used then it should be understood that posts
> not related to Debian would not be welcome, and for that to be
> enforced.

Would AK-47s be required?
I'm sorry, but I find it extremely difficult to equate the term
`community' with that of `rigid, militant conformity'.
What you are looking for is already available in the Debian-User
Handbook, the Debian Reference, the Ref-Card, and any number of other
sources. This list is adjunct to all of that, as well as any number of
other resources. And, I should respectfully suggest that this list be
employed after all of them have been exhausted for an answer. Post your
question, after checking the archives, and follow only that thread in
order to avoid all the other aspects you see as undesirable.
In this way, I believe any injury to your sensibilities can be easily
avoided.
Cheers!

Harry.

-- 
`Unthinking respect for authority is 
the greatest enemy of truth'.
-- Albert Einstein

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Weaver]

On 10-08-2021 07:54, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
>> On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote:
>> > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I
>> > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint
>> > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their
>> > heads and debating such into the ground.
>>
>> We all have our perceptions.
>> This would appear to be an overly dramatic one.
>> `posting every thought that comes into their
>> > heads and debating such into the ground' - really?
>> If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be
>> more concise than that.
> 
> I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
> that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
> find; there's just so many of them.

That wasn't the point. I pointed out an over dramatisation of the
situation is not conducive to the sort of accurate pre-analytical stage
required in order to specify a problem in order to deal with it
accurately.
Your answer to that is to specify `ridiculously off-topic threads'.
 
> If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find
> the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know
> how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me
> listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything
> Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to
> feel like an attack on individual posters.

There may be any number of threads that do not meet your parameters of
`Debian-related'.
That doesn't mean they have no relevant standing in the situation.
Is there to be a rigorous deletion of anything  not Debian related
within each email?
Is there to be no polite, courteous format, simply because it's not
`Debian-related'?
Things can get just a little too rigid, on the way to creating a total
lack of community that nobody wants to be a part of.

> I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
> situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
> think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
> opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.

And who isn't?

>> > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site
>> > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer.
>>
>> Not in the reality I inhabit.
>> I'm a member of a couple of stack overflow sites, and I have witnessed many a
>> humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness.
> 
> Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
> tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
> better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
> who come across it.

No, the rudeness is jumped on by members of the community more than
`moderators'.
The format changes nothing.
Where you get a focal point of communication interaction, you wll always
have both positive and negative interaction, determining which is which
very much a thing of individual perception.
You might see one interjection as rude and unnecessary, while I might
see it as a required ingredient in placing a clown in their place.
You can't stop social interaction unless you are a member of the android
demographic.

> By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts
> loudest and most often, 

For exaple, you might see that point as relevant, while I see it as a
prime example of prevarication in an attempt to achieve a personal,
preferred aim at the expense of the group.

> and that's even before the posts start
> appearing that are not even about Debian at all.

Debian is open source.
It's a product of community.
It's strength comes from that.
I should not like to see it stifled.
Many different kinds of personalities contribute to it, as well as the
accepted standards of any number of traditions and cultures.
If you think the situation is not good now, you should have been around
then.
The flame wars were devastating, and I can recall one senior developer
stating the list was unusable, at one stage, and he was right.
But then the issue got sorted and things got back to normal.
 
> There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
> search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
> Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.

Quite often that's the case, and so it should be.
Keeping resources to just one would have to be as much of a definition
of mental laziness as any other.
That should be happening before turning to the list for an answer from
another user.

>> There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those
>> conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate
>> notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable -
>> within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all
>> of 5 

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 10:19:19PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in favour of an
> alternate solution or else to make it strictly for Debian-related
> posts only.

I want to walk this one back a bit as there's no need to destroy the
community that exists here already by forcing it to move elsewhere.

What I meant to say is that I think it'd be best if debian-user
continue to exist as it is while having its support element covered
by some other thing, and that be consistently documented throughout
Debian's documentation and websites wherever debian-user currently
is pointed to.

As mentioned, ideally I would see that support function served by a
Stack Overflow-like web site as I think those are easier to keep
focused for question-answer purposes. However if a mailing list
absolutely had to be used then it should be understood that posts
not related to Debian would not be welcome, and for that to be
enforced.

Thanks,
Andy

Re: Obtenir le support des images avec opencl

[Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside]

Bonjour Didier,
On 2021-08-09 3:37 p.m., didier gaumet wrote:
> Bonjour,
> 
> Je n'ai jamais expérimenté OpenCL, donc mes commentaires sont à prendre avec 
> précaution
> 
> De ce que je comprends (de travers?), à l'heure actuelle la seule 
> implémentation d'OpenCL qui prendrait en charge le support des images serait 
> ROCm à partir de la version 3.7 (on en est à 4.3). En tout cas pour de 
> l'AMD/ATI, tu peux utiliser Mesa mais le support des images ne semble pas 
> encore d'actualité.
> 
> Je n'ai trouvé trace de ROCm dans Debian qu'en version 3.3 de mai 2020 dans 
> le repo experimental donc je suppose que c'est abandonné. Je n'ai trouvé de 
> trace de ROCm dans aucun autre package (mais j'ai peut-être mal cherché)
> 
> Tu peux peut-être t'en sortir en installant un paquetage Ubuntu (module ROCm 
> DKMS) à partir des dépôts AMD, ça ne coûte rien de lire leur page de doc.
> 
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/GPGPU
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=ROCm-3.7-OpenCL-Image
> https://rocmdocs.amd.com/en/latest/Installation_Guide/Installation-Guide.html
> 
Je ne sais pas trop exactement et avec précision ce que tu veux dire par
"support des images" parce que déjà OpenCL permet grace à la
parallélisation de traiter sur le GPU des images.

Exemple ceci qui est du code Python :
https://towardsdatascience.com/get-started-with-gpu-image-processing-15e34b787480

Déjà Darktable utilise le GPU pour traiter des images, donc je ne crois
pas que l'on peut dire que c'est absent de Debian.

Il faut faire attention entre implémentation et implémentation de référence.

Par exemple dans le cas de Java, peut-on dire que Debian inclus Java ?
Il n'inclus pas la version de référence de Java tel que produit par
Oracle mais il inclus une version aux fonctionnalités et à la
compatibilité identique nommé OpenJDK (qui est en partie produite par
Oracle à ce que j'en comprends).

Si tu regardes la page de ArchLinux, tu veras dans le haut plusieurs
gestionnaire (driver) pour OpenCL.

*rocm* est l'un d'eux
Tout comme *opencl-amd* et *opencl-mesa*
De ce que je comprend de ArchLinux, le package opencl-amd est équivalent
à ce qui se trouve actuellement dans *non-free*.

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/opencl-amd/

Solidairement,
-- 
Polyna-Maude R.-Summerside
-Be smart, Be wise, Support opensource development



OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 07:26:50AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 09:33:02PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > My only suggestion was a Stack Overflow-style question-answer site.
> > Those aren't discussion forums.
> 
> Two things: (a) SO is a commercial site. It has paid staff.

In my first post in this thread I did point out that it would be
better done in project-hosted DFSG-free service and that it has
already been tried at least twice by Debian and failed due to lack
of use.

If your point here is "who's going to do the work?" Well, most of
the moderation work on such sites is done by the people using the
sites.

Personally speaking I'd much rather have the option to -1 a totally
off-topic response than have to just ctrl-r to mark read a whole
sub-thread of nonsense when it only benefits me to do so.

> in such an unstructured medium, some self-imposed rules
> may help.

If people were able to impose them, yes. But here we are.

> See, for example Andrew's regular posts. This isn't anything
> "imposed from above" -- he went around here asking for ideas, etc.

Andrew does have perceived authority as a Debian Developer.

I agree that Andrew's posts serve as a good reminder of how things
should be.

> You could do that.

I am doing that: I am asking the Debian Project to can this list in
favour of an alternate solution or else to make it strictly for
Debian-related posts only.

I've already said that I think there will be too much opposition to
that suggestion, so I don't expect to see it happen. But you did
ask.

Self-restraint isn't working.

> > Have a look at https://askubuntu.com/ to get some sort of idea,
> > since that is at least a Debian derivative. But as I said, it has
> > been tried before and I think won't/can't succeed without buy-in
> > from the project.
> 
> That's not my kind of discussion forum. I come across them through
> web searches, that's all the interaction I have there.

Yes, that is exactly my point in showing it to you. You have
correctly deduced that it is not a discussion site, mostly just
provide answers to your questions, and you have benefited from
finding those answers yourself.

You have also correctly seen my suggestion that Debian's primary
support venue should not have much interaction outside of problem
solving.

Those were my exact reasons for bringing up Ask Ubuntu.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be discussion and debate around
Debian (although I struggle to see why anyone would want to bring in
non-Debian topics even there). I'm just saying that the main place
for users to get support shouldn't be where that is expected to
happen.

> > > I feel we aren't doing that bad, considering the volume.
> > 
> > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
> > group,
> 
> which is what it is

Yes, that's what it is right now, but you asked what could be
changed and I have suggested what I think should be changed about
Debian's primary user support venue. That it should not also be a
general Debian community discussion group.

> > where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
> > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
> > for users new and old.
> 
> TBH, I've seen many people here finding answers to their questions.

I've not argued that zero people are helped. You created this
sub-thread in response to someone [else] who said that there was too
much off-topic posting here.

> > I don't think that both audiences can be catered for in the same
> > place and I really think that we could and should do better.
> 
> Feel free :)

Self-restraint isn't working.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 05:01:50PM -0700, Weaver wrote:
> On 09-08-2021 07:33, Andy Smith wrote:
> > A lack of politeness isn't really debian-user's biggest problem. I
> > think debian-user's biggest problem is the lack of restraint
> > prolific posters have on posting every thought that comes into their
> > heads and debating such into the ground.
> 
> We all have our perceptions.
> This would appear to be an overly dramatic one.
> `posting every thought that comes into their
> > heads and debating such into the ground' - really?
> If there's a problem requiring resolution, I think it might pay to be
> more concise than that.

I really don't want to get into calling out specific sub-threads
that have been ridiculously off-topic recently, They are not hard to
find; there's just so many of them.

If you can't see this then I just have to assume that you don't find
the current situation to be a problem, in which case I don't know
how to convince you that there's a problem. It doesn't seem like me
listing out sub-threads that have departed far from anything
Debian-related would convince you, and would probably only serve to
feel like an attack on individual posters.

I understand that there's plenty of people who think the current
situation is not a problem, but I think there's also people who do
think there is some issue here. I'm one of them and I'm giving my
opinion in a thread where it was specifically asked for.

> > That sort of thing is not really possible on a question-answer site
> > as conciseness is rewarded in both question and answer.
> 
> Not in the reality I inhabit.
> I'm a member of a couple of stack sires, and I have witnessed many a
> humorous aside and any number of examples of downright rudeness.

Absolutely, but it's discouraged by the format and what gets through
tends to be moderated away so it's less prominent. This results in a
better experience both for the question asker and later researchers
who come across it.

By contrast on a mailing list like this it's about who shouts
loudest and most often, and that's even before the posts start
appearing that are not even about Debian at all.

There are good reasons why most times when I have a problem, a
search engine expedition will usually lead me to answers on Stack
Overflow-like sites before the archives of discussion lists.

> There is also an extremely efficient means of weeding out those
> conversations an individual sees as not necessary for their immediate
> notice, or downright unnecessary, and ones they see as beng answerable -
> within ther capability - and of interest. Personally, that takes me all
> of 5 seconds.

New users can't do this. Of course they can be taught but that is a
huge impediment to getting their problems solved.

People coming by later to find answers also still have to sift
through it all.

It seems really odd to take the position that the primary venue for
user support must be drowned in content that is not about use of
Debian, because anyone who isn't interested in that can just filter
it away.

> > Off-topic discussion is specifically something which I suggest there
> > is too much of here.
> 
> It depends on what you see as `off-topic'. Your view is yours, and not
> necessarily everybody's.
> Do you see the value in discussion, yet?

I get that everyone has different opinions about what this list is
for. I think I'm being pretty clear in expressing the opinion that
it is for user support, not general debate. It's not a problem when
there's a slight amount of debate around the problems and solutions.
It is a problem when threads shift entirely away from the use of
Debian. Again, I really don't want to have to call out specific
recent incidents as I think they're easy to recognise.

I'm not saying that I think such conversations shouldn't be had,
anywhere, just that the primary place for support shouldn't be the
place that they happen, and that I think this could best be achieved
by not using a discussion list for it in the first place.

So no, I don't see the value of such wide-ranging discussion in the
support venue, even having given a fair amount of it over a
reasonably long period of time. There is nothing that has convinced
me that diverging off into some topic not at all related to use of
Debian has value here. I've done it myself, regretted it later, it's
usually been a product of frustration and I wish it wasn't tolerated
here from me or anyone else.

> > It is perhaps not so bad for a general Debian community discussion
> > group, where you would go into it thinking that pretty much anything
> > goes, but the fact is that this is Debian's primary support venue
> > for users new and old.
> 
> Something it has been doing very well at for some considerable time now.

This sub-thread asking for suggestions on how to improve the list
could have had a very short answer from you if your opinion on that
is "nothing, it's all fine". Clearly not everyone considers it to be
doing very well.

Re: Obtenir le support des images avec opencl

[didier gaumet]

Bonjour,

Je n'ai jamais expérimenté OpenCL, donc mes commentaires sont à prendre avec 
précaution

De ce que je comprends (de travers?), à l'heure actuelle la seule 
implémentation d'OpenCL qui prendrait en charge le support des images serait 
ROCm à partir de la version 3.7 (on en est à 4.3). En tout cas pour de 
l'AMD/ATI, tu peux utiliser Mesa mais le support des images ne semble pas 
encore d'actualité.

Je n'ai trouvé trace de ROCm dans Debian qu'en version 3.3 de mai 2020 dans le 
repo experimental donc je suppose que c'est abandonné. Je n'ai trouvé de trace 
de ROCm dans aucun autre package (mais j'ai peut-être mal cherché)

Tu peux peut-être t'en sortir en installant un paquetage Ubuntu (module ROCm 
DKMS) à partir des dépôts AMD, ça ne coûte rien de lire leur page de doc.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/GPGPU
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=ROCm-3.7-OpenCL-Image
https://rocmdocs.amd.com/en/latest/Installation_Guide/Installation-Guide.html

Debian Meetup in Stockholm August 2021

[Luna Jernberg]

Hey!

Me and @Helio Loureiro  decided we will have some
IRL Debian Meetups 14-16th August 16:00-19:00 Swedish time at
Mosebacketerrassen
in Slussen, Stockholm, Sweden

To celebrate the Debian 11 release and the 28th Debian Birthday
everyone that has time is welcome to swing by

Re: Debian träff Juli-Augusti 2021 Stockholm ?

[Luna Jernberg]

 snackade mer med Helio nu och vi bestämde att ses på Mosebacketerrassen i
Slussen, Stockholm 14-16:e Augusti mellan 16:00-19:00 för dom som är i
Stockholm och vill se och fira Debian 11 Releasen och Debians 28:e
Födelsedag

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 7:43 PM Luna Jernberg  wrote:

> Hej!
>
> Pingar den här tråden igen, någon som vill vara med och göra något för
> Debian Day i Stockholm 16:e Augusti eller ha en Debian 11 releasefest i
> Stockholm 14-15:e Augusti ?
>
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 2:23 PM Luna Jernberg 
> wrote:
>
>> Hejsan!
>>
>> Jag och Helio började prata lite löst om att eventuellt ha en Debian
>> träff i Stockholm under Juli-Augusti månad i år och eventuellt ha något
>> under Debians födelsedag Debian Day 16:e Augusti
>> beroende på hur det ser ut med Coronaviruset om några veckor
>>
>> eventuellt kanske man kan ha en liten träff utomhus någonstans?
>>
>

Re: Debian träff Juli-Augusti 2021 Stockholm ?

[Luna Jernberg]

Hej!

Pingar den här tråden igen, någon som vill vara med och göra något för
Debian Day i Stockholm 16:e Augusti eller ha en Debian 11 releasefest i
Stockholm 14-15:e Augusti ?

On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 2:23 PM Luna Jernberg  wrote:

> Hejsan!
>
> Jag och Helio började prata lite löst om att eventuellt ha en Debian träff
> i Stockholm under Juli-Augusti månad i år och eventuellt ha något under
> Debians födelsedag Debian Day 16:e Augusti
> beroende på hur det ser ut med Coronaviruset om några veckor
>
> eventuellt kanske man kan ha en liten träff utomhus någonstans?
>

Re: Debian 11 Xfce - Applications -> Settings -> Network Connections missing

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:10:52 +0200 (CEST)
Roger Price  wrote:

> I'm trying to set up a Wi-Fi connection in Debian 11 with Xfce.  In
> previous Debian Xfce installations I found Applications -> Settings
> -> Network Connections which offered a useful GUI.

I'm on Debian 10 (Buster) and 11 (Bullseye), both with XFCE, and don't
have that particular menu entry. Try the notification area, right side
of the top panel. Hover over each icon in the notification area until a
tool tip identifies it.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Debian 11 Xfce - Applications -> Settings -> Network Connections missing

[ghe2001]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, August 9, 2021 9:46 AM, Charles Curley 
 wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:10:52 +0200 (CEST)
> Roger Price deb...@rogerprice.org wrote:
>
> > I can't find the Netwok Connections GUI
> > in Debian 11. Is there some additional package I need to install?
>
> Is the NetworkManager GUI for GTK installed?
>
> apt install network-manager-gnome network-manager

I use XFCE to.  Might want to try /etc/network/interfaces, too.  Here's a 
relevant piece of mine:

# wlan0 -- Get DHCP from SSID: Frasier_Residents, PW: 
auto wlan0
iface wlan0 inet dhcp
wpa-ssid Frasier_Residents
wpa-psk 

This turns on WiFi at boot and gets a DHCP IP and stuff from the local WiFi 
net.  And no boogers in the panel...

--
Glenn English

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: ProtonMail

wsBzBAEBCAAGBQJhEVMkACEJEJ/XhjGCrIwyFiEELKJzD0JScCVjQA2Xn9eG
MYKsjDI2ngf/QMpqng/JdVOZ9YtcNN1ckWmCKUh4Qr4ALF1pMkg5UsYn/Ofu
qcxuxPJuQYR58u0q6+7UEy/bn+Mge4g9BKN0mBd0a1eNTQ7+LRy9kS5xAhLJ
JopVZ5+RzAwdAFLKIuoe/LfWecyNM0c+6OTkPR7U8uWhbuhdE6OY9HgWba0j
LQTCuPrhyZ+z/jOG8/hccII2mD+kRHh2e9WqwJdCdFfyW2DL+ytH7lp41S3L
WiMIhrcjqhIIUhrFXrxUa+GfThpcIrT74uq6KLOp5NSychJdm0S9pGamTFe1
6mbcbTUxpapdbgrRvWwmUZ7IedybU4DHvwC8g97M1aIy1w3jIwFyyw==
=TjI0
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Debian 11 Xfce - Applications -> Settings -> Network Connections missing

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 17:10:52 +0200 (CEST)
Roger Price  wrote:

> I can't find the Netwok Connections GUI 
> in Debian 11.  Is there some additional package I need to install?

Is the NetworkManager GUI for GTK installed?

apt install network-manager-gnome network-manager

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[tomas]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:09:19PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 11:09:24AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > [mailman, threads crossing month boundaries]

> I'm fairly sure it will resemble mailman (<=2) in this respect yes.
> But that's also how the Debian mailing list archives are organised.
> You and I are free to organise our own private list archives how we
> see fit.

This was but one example for the more general (and interesting)
theme of the "different views of the world" (see below).

> >Imagine just that "+1" thingie [...]

> I *think*, that the +1/-1 stuff is not visible via mail at all. So
> you're right: there'd be a divergent "view of the world". Some might
> say, that those who prefer mail interfaces would be happy not to
> see that +1/-1 stuff at all. But that might not apply to any other
> divergences.
> 
> >As opposed to a web application, where one visual appearance
> >is forced onto^H^H^H [2] offered to all participants; the
> >separation is not so clear.
> 
> The idea would be that those who prefer to interact with mail continue
> to do so.

Yes, and I still think /trying/ is worth the effort, but I see
the paradox that a communication tool is here making communication
more difficult.

I can testify to it by having lived in a corp using mutt, while
all the others used Outlook. They were so conditioned by the
(uniform) UI that I sometimes could only understand what they
were talking about by imagining how things would look on their
screens. The UI design had become part of the communication
language.

In the attempts at bridging mail-y and forum-y worlds so far,
I've seen very little thought put into that.

Cheers
 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Debian 11 Xfce - Applications -> Settings -> Network Connections missing

[Roger Price]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2021, Roger Price wrote:

I'm trying to set up a Wi-Fi connection in Debian 11 with Xfce.  In previous 
Debian Xfce installations I found Applications -> Settings -> Network 
Connections which offered a useful GUI.  I can't find the Netwok Connections 
GUI in Debian 11.


To answer part of my own question: I have found /usr/bin/nm-connection-editor 
If I call it from the command line I get the GUI, but it's missing in 
Applications -> Settings.


Roger

Debian 11 Xfce - Applications -> Settings -> Network Connections missing

[Roger Price]

I'm trying to set up a Wi-Fi connection in Debian 11 with Xfce.  In previous 
Debian Xfce installations I found Applications -> Settings -> Network 
Connections which offered a useful GUI.  I can't find the Netwok Connections GUI 
in Debian 11.  Is there some additional package I need to install?


Command nmcli general reports that eth0 and wlan0 interfaces are operational, 
but I would prefer to continue using a GUI interface to set up wlan0 if this is 
possible.


Roger

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 11:09:24AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

If it bears any similarity to classic mailman, then colour me
unimpressed. My pet peeve with that one is that it cuts lists
into month sized slices (which makes kind of sense when you
want a month view, but puts you in an awkward place when you're
reading a thread which crosses one (or several!) month boundaries).


I'm fairly sure it will resemble mailman (<=2) in this respect yes.
But that's also how the Debian mailing list archives are organised.
You and I are free to organise our own private list archives how we
see fit.


Imagine just that "+1" thingie: how do those who participate via
mail get to "see" that? Doesn't that lead to both groups's "views
of the world" slowly diverging?


I *think*, that the +1/-1 stuff is not visible via mail at all. So
you're right: there'd be a divergent "view of the world". Some might
say, that those who prefer mail interfaces would be happy not to
see that +1/-1 stuff at all. But that might not apply to any other
divergences.


As opposed to a web application, where one visual appearance
is forced onto^H^H^H [2] offered to all participants; the
separation is not so clear.


The idea would be that those who prefer to interact with mail continue
to do so.


--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: Error starting any Debian installation (on an AMD SEV enabled KVM)

[Henning Follmann]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 02:04:49PM +0200, Office onFocus wrote:
> I cannot start an installation of a debian * .iso (install, live, ..) from 
> any installation medium.
> 
> This problem affects all Debian images. There are no problems with Ubuntu or 
> CentOS! As soon as you 
> boot the ISO and click Install, there is no error message and the boot 
> process begins again (loop).

How did you create your installation media?

> 
> This problem has been around for a long time, and it only occurred to me now 
> that it only affects Debian. For testing I recommend the tutorial 
> https://docs.ovh.com/asia/en/dedicated/enable-and-use-amd-sme-sev/
> 
> Server: buster / sid
> Libvirt: 7.0.0-3
> qemu: 1: 5.2 + dfsg-11
> 
> I hope you can help me soon so that I can install a KVM (sev) with Debian.

I assume you want to create a KVM image? How do you try to start the instance
for installation?
(Please list the complete line for running kvm)

-H

-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Obtenir le support des images avec opencl

[benoit]

Bonjour à toutes et tous,

En bref voici mon problème :

clinfo | grep Image

Image support. No

En détail :

Quand je lance darktable avec ces options pour comprendre pourquoi il n’utilise 
pas opencl pourtant installé, il me dit ceci :

$ darktable -d opencl -d per

--8<--

0.081940 [opencl_init] discarding device 0 `AMD Radeon(TM) Vega 8 Graphics 
(RAVEN, DRM 3.40.0, 5.10.0-7-amd64, LLVM 11.0.1)' - The OpenCL driver doesn't 
provide image support. See also 'clinfo' output.

0.081945 [opencl_init] no suitable devices found.

0.081948 [opencl_init] FINALLY: opencl is NOT AVAILABLE on this system.

0.081949 [opencl_init] initial status of opencl enabled flag is OFF.

---

Du coup je fais ce qu’il dit, je lance clinfo et je cherche à Image :

clinfo | grep Image

Image support. No

Comment y remédier ?

Merci d'avance

--
Benoît

Re: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian

[Curt]

On 2021-08-07, Keith Bainbridge  wrote:
> On 7/8/21 08:58, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>>   Not "you're wrong", but "you can't prove it".
>>
>> To me, that's a tacit ADMISSION of guilt.
>
>
> Ah   I see another avid watcher of Police drama speaking here
>

Sherlock has left the building.

Re: Only One Side Speaker is giving sound

[Anssi Saari]

Rishi  writes:

> Regarding my earlier mail. I am using debian on my laptop so the
> speakers are internal speakers. I also use windows on dual boot on the
> same laptop and I face no such audio issue while using Windows. So, I
> am pretty sure it's not a hardware issue on my laptop. If it works just
> fine in windows and not in debian that means there's definitely some
> issue with debian. 

It's good to share information. It might help you find other people who
have the same or similar issue if you could release information also on
what laptop it is.

Anyways, can you find anything like sound settings in your Debian? If
you installed the default desktop environment aka Gnome then there
should be something by that name. Is there any balance control you could
try to adjust to get sound out of both speakers?

Re: Only One Side Speaker is giving sound

[Roger Price]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2021, Rishi wrote:


Waiting for some guidance to resolve this. :)


While you are waiting, check alsamixer - are both channels at the same level?

Roger

Re: when will bullseye become stable?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 07:20:43AM +, Long Wind wrote:
> it seems bullseye is somewhat behind scheduledo you have latest info about 
> release date?

14th/15th August - so this coming weekend :)

All the very best,

Andy Cater

Error starting any Debian installation (on an AMD SEV enabled KVM)

[Office onFocus]

I cannot start an installation of a debian * .iso (install, live, ..) from any 
installation medium.

This problem affects all Debian images. There are no problems with Ubuntu or 
CentOS! As soon as you 
boot the ISO and click Install, there is no error message and the boot process 
begins again (loop).

This problem has been around for a long time, and it only occurred to me now 
that it only affects Debian. For testing I recommend the tutorial 
https://docs.ovh.com/asia/en/dedicated/enable-and-use-amd-sme-sev/

Server: buster / sid
Libvirt: 7.0.0-3
qemu: 1: 5.2 + dfsg-11

I hope you can help me soon so that I can install a KVM (sev) with Debian.

Re: Only One Side Speaker is giving sound

[Rishi]

Regarding my earlier mail. I am using debian on my laptop so the
speakers are internal speakers. I also use windows on dual boot on the
same laptop and I face no such audio issue while using Windows. So, I
am pretty sure it's not a hardware issue on my laptop. If it works just
fine in windows and not in debian that means there's definitely some
issue with debian. I have installed non-free drivers as mentioned in
the previous mail but that doesn't seem to resolve the issue.

Waiting for some guidance to resolve this. :)

On Fri, 2021-08-06 at 07:10 +, Rishi wrote:
> Hope you are in good health amid this pandemic.
> 
> I am using Debian 11 right now and I have noticed that while playing
> video/audio, I can hear sound from only one side speaker.
> I have installed the nonfree realtek and intel firmware and updated
> it
> to latest version but I am still facing that issue. 
> Is this a specific issue to the current debian 11 rc or just an in
> general issue? Please guide me.
> 
> Regards.

Re: Stuttering Gnome Debian Buster

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 10:39:24AM +0200, solon wrote:
> I'm using the open source radeon drivers that you get using contrib/non-free
> and I've scoured google trying to figure out the problem. The only thing I
> can come up with is that Gnome 3.30 is exceedingly slow,

The first thing you should do is identify your video chipset.  Use
the command "lspci -nn" and look for "VGA" in the output.  Also look
for any other lines that look like a video device, because sometimes
there's more than one, and sometimes they don't include the word "VGA".

The most important part of the output is the 8-hex-digit PCI identifier
code, usually enclosed in square brackets.  Mine is [8086:5912] for
example.

Once you know what hardware you're dealing with, you can Google for
it and perhaps find solutions.  Failing that, you can post it here
on the mailing list, and maybe someone else will have had experience
with a similar device, or will be better able to find solutions for
you on Google.

Unfortunately, sometimes you need to Google using the model names instead
of the PCI ID, because not all posted solutions include all the hardware
information.

In general, you're looking at three separate issues:

1) Many graphics devices require the installation of non-free firmware
   blobs, in order to function correctly.  In the absence of this
   firmware, the symptom is usually "no 3D acceleration which makes
   GNOME and other desktop environments run really slowly", or even
   "GNOME and other DEs refuse to start, but I installed a display
   manager, so now I'm stuck on a black screen with a cursor".

2) *Some* (not as many) graphics devices require the installation of
   non-free drivers.  This is usually the case with nVidia devices more
   so than Radeons.

3) *Some* of the newest devices require a whole new kernel + X server +
   Mesa stack.

So, knowing which device you're dealing with is critical here.  It will
determine which of these things you need to do.  (And you may need to do
more than one.)

In the best case, you only have to install firmware.  You run a command
like "dmesg | grep -i firmware" to see what firmware is missing, and then
you track down which package contains that firmware, and you install it.
Then reboot, and voila.

If you have to install an nVidia driver, there are wiki pages that
should be helpful.

If you have to install a whole new kernel/X/Mesa stack, you might be
able to use buster-backports.  But that will be a substantial investment
of time and effort that would probably be better spent upgrading to
bullseye (Debian 11) at this time, since bullseye's release is less than
a week away.

Re: bluetooth keyboard

[mick crane]

On 2021-08-09 02:47, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:


Does this help ?

OK, it is no great hardship to wait a second or two.
mick
--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: when will bullseye become stable?

[Sven Hartge]

Long Wind  wrote:

> it seems bullseye is somewhat behind scheduledo you have latest info about 
> release date?

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2021/07/msg3.html

"We plan to release on 2021-08-14."

Grüße,
S!


-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: bluetooth keyboard

[deloptes]

Klaus Singvogel wrote:

> This means, that I can't change nor access my BIOS / UEFI settings by a BT
> keyboard?

It depends on the hardware and BIOS. Some newer especially with integrated
BT would implement a HID driver, so that you could, but if it would work
with each keyboard etc. no idea.
It is risky ... keep one with USB cable around for the case.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[tomas]

On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 08:33:08AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> >To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
> >for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
> >Stack Overflow-like site.
> 
> I agree with you to some extent. I've wondered for a long while whether
> Mailman 3 and it's "HyperKitty" web front-end could be a solution.

If it bears any similarity to classic mailman, then colour me
unimpressed. My pet peeve with that one is that it cuts lists
into month sized slices (which makes kind of sense when you
want a month view, but puts you in an awkward place when you're
reading a thread which crosses one (or several!) month boundaries).

Don't get me wrong. Searchable archives "out there" are invaluable,
and whoever tries to unify mailing lists and fora is in my eyes
a hero -- but I fear the core problem is not a technical one.

Imagine just that "+1" thingie: how do those who participate via
mail get to "see" that? Doesn't that lead to both groups's "views
of the world" slowly diverging?

I think this happens at a very fundamental level: in the "mail
world": "protocol" [1] is separate from user agent. The ones
are using mutt, the others thunderbird or claws, a third one
(horrors!) some kind of web mail and a fourth one (even more
horrors!) outlook. This is known, so most of us know that the
MUA's visual appearance is not part of the message.

As opposed to a web application, where one visual appearance
is forced onto^H^H^H [2] offered to all participants; the
separation is not so clear.

Bridging both worlds takes more than a couple of smart algorithms.

All I have seen up to now is done as web design is done
these days: you start with a wireframe [3], then...

The result for me is "thanks, but no, thanks".

Cheers

[1] in a very general sense: alternatively: "data model"
[2] here you see my bias. I can't hide it.
[3] i.e. the starting point of the design is a visual
   one.

 - t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Stuttering Gnome Debian Buster

[solon]

Hello All,

I have sort of hybrid media server as my living room PC. It's a Dual 
Xeon 2650L-V3 (24 cores total) with 32Gb of DDR4 ram. It functions as a 
storage server for my 40Gb Infiniband SAN, and as a regular fileserver 
providing both samba and nfs. It also runs three virtual machines using 
kvm/qemu, a pfsense load balancer for the network, a pihole in a 
seperate no-gui debian install and a simple webserver debian install. In 
total these VM's have 6 cores and 12Gb of RAM assigned to them. It has a 
Radeon R7 240 2Gb DDR5 video card attached to a 1080p TV. I haven't paid 
any particular attention to optimizing NUMA nodes or the like, but the 
only VM that really has any substantial load is the pfsense VM.


Previously it was running Ubuntu 20.10, but I've recently reinstalled it 
with Debian 10 because Ubuntu development has been taking a development 
direction that I'm finding increasingly annoying. The only thing that 
has been problematic since the reinstall is that I'm noticing extreme 
stuttering on the gnome desktop which wasn't present under Ubuntu, even 
with a positively ancient 512Mb videocard.


I'm using the open source radeon drivers that you get using 
contrib/non-free and I've scoured google trying to figure out the 
problem. The only thing I can come up with is that Gnome 3.30 is 
exceedingly slow, so I installed xfce4, but to a lesser extent this 
still suffers the same problems. Another point that may be related is 
that I have to log in a great many times before I can actually get into 
the desktop. Gdm login screen typically simply comes back 3-5 times 
before the desktop will display. I feel it's probably related, but this 
too is something that I've not been able to find anything substantial 
about through google searches.


I'm wondering if anyone has a suggestion for solving this, or perhaps 
whether this is a known problem dat is likely to be naturally adressed 
by the updates in Debian 11 which is releasing very soon? Does anyone 
have any experience with this issue?


If anyone has any insights to share, I'd love to hear them.

EJ

Re: bluetooth keyboard

[Klaus Singvogel]

Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote:
> On 2021-08-08 6:14 p.m., mick crane wrote:
> > I like the little generic bluetooth keyboards but it is annoying that
> > when they go to sleep it takes a few seconds for everything to wake up
> > so you can commence typing.
[...]
> It's also one of the
> reason that make it impossible to use a Bluetooth keyboard to
> communicate with GRUB or another bootloader or simply access the system
> configuration of your PC.

This means, that I can't change nor access my BIOS / UEFI settings by a BT 
keyboard?

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Klaus.
-- 
Klaus Singvogel
GnuPG-Key-ID: 1024R/5068792D  1994-06-27

Re: On improving mailing list [was: How to Boot Linux ISO Images Directly From Your Hard Drive Debian]

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Aug 08, 2021 at 03:26:25PM +, Andy Smith wrote:

To be honest I don't think that mailing lists are a very good venue
for user support and I would these days prefer to direct people to a
Stack Overflow-like site.


I agree with you to some extent. I've wondered for a long while whether
Mailman 3 and it's "HyperKitty" web front-end could be a solution. You
retain the mailing list (which persists despite all the SO-like sites,
forums, etc we've tried over the years) but gain an interface to it
which addresses some of the usability issues that are frustrating newer
posters (and putting off unknown numbers of non-posters). I've not made
heavy use of HyperKitty myself, so it remains a vague "this looks
interesting" rather than a formal proposal from me. I believe the Fedora
project use it.

Here's an example recent thread from Fedora's devel list which is
illuminating.



You see a forum-like interface; there's visible threading. The little
"Thumbs up / Thumbs down" icons are an attempt to meet the needs of
those people who would otherwise reply to a post "+1" etc.; they do not
seem to be in use in this thread. (I don't know how successful they've
been at heading off that kind of reply).

There's also some examples of behaviours which are NOT fixed by the web
UI: the second message to the list is a one-line top-post which quotes
the entirety of the first post, and that is displayed in full. I suppose
another issue (compared to a "real" forum) is posts cannot be edited
after sending. The UI could of course improve over time to detect and
fold/flatten such mails by default, or similar.

--
Please do not CC me for listmail.

  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
   https://jmtd.net

Re: OFFLIST: Gnome desktop removal messed up machine

[Anssi Saari]

 writes:

> It's fascinating how differently brains seem to be wired up. Awesome's
> idea convinced me at first sight. So after my DE excursion (Gnome, then
> XFCE, and deciding that no, I don't want anyone mounting my USB sticks
> for me or limiting what I can do with my keyboard) I tried Awesome for
> a while. I never got the hang of it.

Well, it wasn't a straight transition for me either. I tried at least
dwm before Awesome and I'm fairly sure one or two other tiling
WMs. Awesome clicked while the others felt more DIY than I like. I think
I understood the idea of being able to tag apps and in that way easily
select what apps are visible when I choose a tag. That wasn't easy to
setup though so it came later.