Re: [debian-users] Integration of development tools
Osamu Aoki wrote: Hi, On Fri, Jan 01, 2010 at 10:38:23PM -0700, Ted Hilts wrote: I am looking for some advice regarding integration of tools for development purposes. I have obtained the following over the internet.: 1. All debian binary and source DVD ISOs (for the present stable version) as the basis of a repository for binary and source code. I blasted the binary ISOs onto DVDs in readiness to install a Debian system (actually a dual boot system with Debian the primary system and MS XP Pro the secondary system). My difficulty here is regarding the source code which I need for a SVN local system starting base as well as a SVN update system geared to Debian releases. I am not sure if this is the best way (I've been looking a tutorials) and if it is the best way how to set up, access, and manage this whole subversion and websvn thing. The latest Debian is not distributed in subversion. Debian is binary based distribution and its source are not in a single uniform VCS. (We use VCS but distribution of source is basically through tar.gz like format only as the SATNDARD method on our archive. See http://wiki.debian.org/Alioth for our VCS usage.) Each source package comes with debian/control file and it contains VCS infprmation if available. Some are git, svn, cvs, bzr, hg (I see more Debian packages using git these days.) If you have such good internat connection to download so much, why bother? Just use first netinst CD to install system. You can have access to required source package and copy by using apt-get source ... after setting deb-src line. If you just need readonly VCS access, it may be listed on PTS: http://packages.qa.debian.org/common/index.html Upstream VCS info maybe in debian/copyright file etc. I think it is time for you to read few basic documents on Debian. As first time Debian user: Installing Debian GNU/Linux via the Internet: http://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst Debian GNU/Linux FAQ http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ Debian Reference (Especially package related section) http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/index.en.html If you want to Develop, you also need to read Developer info listed: http://www.debian.org/doc/ 2. Closer to the software development issue I installed Anjuta ... There is no single method. Some use emacs, some use vim, and some use IDE such as Anjuta. This is not Debian issue. You need to read manual of each system. As a novice learning program on Debian or Linix in general, just use default gcc on your system. Using other compilers are advanced topic. Osamu PS: I am no good programmer but almost all good programers seem to use emacs or vim as main tool while using IDE for some GUI program generation. Osamu: First, thank you for taking the time to respond. You seem to agree that the package approach to development is almost universally utilized by every distribution including Debian. Most distributions including Debian have a GUI for the purpose of installing some application and that GUI resolves the application and all associated dependencies. Also, every distribution has some kind of package that responds to various installation commands such as the Debian apt-get command. The Debian apt-get program uses a database to find out how to install packages requested by the user. To update the database list, you would use the command apt-get update. And so on. Ubuntu for example has a GUI called Synaptic which is an interface that interacts with the user to install and update packages in a transparent manner. Point to be made here is that package manipulation is the way of developing and not some other way. So if you or I were to modify or create a new application within the Linux community the most common Linux approach of packaging would be utilized whether it be Red Hat, SuSE, Ubuntu, etc., where each distribution has it's own package format and package commands and package content and cross dependencies. It was not always that way but good ideas often get snatched up by others. So in this context I can see some people not wanting to encumber themselves with an IDE. You mentioned EMACS which in it's own right is an IDE. I am not very proficient in EMACS but hope to become more knowledgeable as time goes on. EMACS is first an EDITOR. Without an editor it is hard to have an IDE. IDE stands for integrated Development Environment. Thus the provision for numbered lines and a great variety of features can come into play if one knows how. Most IDEs allow for the integration of one or more EDITORS. Most IDEs utilize a CONSOLE which is like a shell in that it understands certain commands and allows for the interaction with the editor in which the source code is layed out and also allows for commands for compilation and debugging, etc. Apparently a lot of the GNU developers utilize a IDE and yes they do favor EMACS because of it's powerful features
[debian-users] Integration of development tools
I am looking for some advice regarding integration of tools for development purposes. I have obtained the following over the internet.: 1. All debian binary and source DVD ISOs (for the present stable version) as the basis of a repository for binary and source code. I blasted the binary ISOs onto DVDs in readiness to install a Debian system (actually a dual boot system with Debian the primary system and MS XP Pro the secondary system). My difficulty here is regarding the source code which I need for a SVN local system starting base as well as a SVN update system geared to Debian releases. I am not sure if this is the best way (I've been looking a tutorials) and if it is the best way how to set up, access, and manage this whole subversion and websvn thing. 2. Closer to the software development issue I installed Anjuta and a Python consol but it seems by the literature that I should be using Eclipse in conjunction with Anjuta and Python in order to handle java variants and others. The only obvious thing is that I would need Anjutu based IDE for C and C++ compilation probably using gcc but apparently there are several c++ linux compilers and I don't know if Anjuta would work with them.. It seems that Linux development has evolved using several compilers and some compilations require specific versions for the binary to work. Apparently, this divergence is solved by the use of packages which resolve such issues. So it would seem that any development has to deal with a package even if the application is brand new. So I am assuming that Anjuta is a IDE designed to work with packages. And advice, clarification or guidance would be appreciated. Thanks -- Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debian-user] Re: AMD vs Intel and the Debian kernel
Daniel Burrows wrote: On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 02:03:57PM -0600, Ted Hilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] was heard to say: [snipped -- please don't repeat long emails if you're just responding to one part] Also, recently, I discovered that a dual or quad CPU board only provides load balancing and not greater speed. If for example the CPU speed is given as 3 Gb and there are numerous servers on that machine the speed of each of the two (dual core) or 4 (quad core) or 8 core components is reduced thus reducing the speed of each process so the total processing of core elements is 3 Gb. This means for an 8 core unit the speed is reduced to 3 Gb divided by 8. At this time I haven't got a clue whether the virtual system should be single core or multi core as there could be speed advantages and perhaps the manner of virtualising might work best by using some kind of quota control??? This paragraph is an odd combination of truth and confusedness. It's true that having more cores gives you load balancing and not better speed. Sort of. Except sometimes it does give you better speed. What multiple cores gives you is more processing units -- the chips that do the actual computation in your computer. To simplify just a bit: if you just have one processing unit, your computer can only execute one instruction at once. If you have (say) three, it can execute three instructions at once and do three times as much computation per unit of time. That doesn't mean that it's three times as fast at any *given* task, though, because computing tasks are typically described as a series of steps that must be performed in a particular order to come out right. The time it takes to finish a computational task described this way depends on how long it takes to perform all the steps in the task, in order. Since the steps have to be performed one at a time and in order, having more processors won't give you a speed bonus. To put it another way: you can imagine a single-core machine as a guy sitting at a desk furiously scribbling away at arithmetic problems. [0] A multi-core machine gives you more of these guys -- say there are two of them. If you have a list of addition problems and you split it into two lists, you'll find that you can solve twice as many of them in a unit of time versus just having one guy doing the work. On the other hand, if you give them one enormous addition problem (say, adding two million-digit numbers), only one of them will have work to do and it'll take just as long as if you had only one core. [1] In the context of a real computer, what this means is that programs which aren't designed to run efficiently on multi-core machines will run at the same speed on a multi-core machine as they do on a single-core machine, but you can run more of them at once without slowing down. However, that doesn't mean that you lose speed. At the worst, your computer will run just as quickly (or slowly) as with one core. [2] Besides, for what you're doing multiple cores is exactly right: since each virtual machine is essentially a separate process, getting more cores should let you run more virtual machines at once. I think you may be thinking of memory, or specifically RAM. That's the amount of memory your computer can use as temporary working space For instance, a high-end computer might have 3 or 4 GB of memory. All the virtual machines you run share this space, so you need to make sure you have enough memory for all of them. This doesn't really have anything to do with having multiple cores -- except that multiple cores make it easier to run more processes at once, which will require more memory. The good news is that if you have a 64-bit processor, the amount of memory you can install is limited only by the amount your motherboard can recognize. Also, memory is super-cheap nowadays. So if you have 8 virtual machines and you want each to have access to a gigabyte of memory, throw 8GB in on top of what the host system needs and you should be good. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_core for more information on multi-core systems. I would highly recommend using Wikipedia as a reference; many of your questions could have been answered more expeditiously by consulting it first. Daniel PS: I should mention this but couldn't find a way to fit it into my email: if you actually do mean CPU speed, you're using the wrong units. Gb (gigabyte) is a unit of measure for describing amounts of memory; the comparable unit for CPU speed is GHz (gigaherz). The two have about as much in common as kilometer and kiloliter, and if you mix them up people will have trouble understanding what you're saying. [0] Another metaphor is a multi-lane highway. Adding lanes doesn't let any individual car get down the highway faster, but it lets you move more cars per unit of time. But since I think my computer is a little
[debian-user] Re: Wikipedia
I hope this message is not OT and forgive my ignorance but I received a very informative response to some of my questions and several people recommended that I make better use of everyones time by first going to Wikipedia. The messages were more or less as follows: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_core for more information So, I am being told by some to use wikipedia as a credible reference for technical questions. It is my understanding that use of wikipedia may subject the reader to faulty information. There were several blurbs in the news and in news letters that very clearly indicated a user beware warning. Also, there was recently an internal conflict between several individuals working at wikipedia and the conflict was over the growing content some of which was mis-information and in one case submitted by someone using false credentials. So, I became very cautious about wikipedia although there seems to be a lot of sound information. I have seen a lot of references to wikipedia from the Debian lists to lists that are science oriented and mathematically oriented. Does anyone know what the real facts are on wikipedia. Are all the news items I have read on this subject just garbage??? I collect hundreds of news reports every day and all of them are credible and responsibly written. I obtained my information via these news reports. So, what's going on here??? Thanks, Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
debian-user] Re: AMD vs Intel and the Debian kernel
Can someone enlighten me regarding my confusion with the term AMD. 1, I know that the term AMD (American Micro Devices) is supposed to be a 'second source' for Intel 32bit and 64bit microprocessors. But it seems based on what I have read on this relationship between AMD and Intel that there is controversy, legal actions, competition, and architectural differences regarding the manufacture and selling of these microprocessors. So this suggests to me that AMD is not really a 'second source' (a licensed second manufacturing and selling source supplier of identical products as designed and manufactured by another company). 2. Is there any significant architectural differences between the products manufactured by these two companies??? 3. I ask the above question because it seems that the chips produced by one seem not be be plug in capable with the chips produced by the other -- it seems that the boards produced for one are different that the CPU boards produced for the other??? 4. I also ask the above question because over the last 2 years software problems seem to occur around one but not the other??? 5. Also, there is a non-i386 computer containing the AMD acronymn listed with ARM and a dozen other non i386 computers listed by Debian. I understand this second listing of non i386 machines (one example being the Motorola 68xxx) but am confused about the AMD non i386 machines place in this listing. 6. How is it that (for example) the Debian i386 AMD chip (some but not all) are more condusive to the Debian kernel for certain kinds of operations but not so with the Intel chip??? I base this on Debian documentation where the Intel chip is not even mentioned. Bottom line, over the past 2 years I have been struggling with the idea of using the correct (if there is such a thing) microprocessor board/chip combination appropriate for certain operations but not at the exclusion of all other possible operations. Maybe I have just confused myself and every Intel board/chip combination is replaceable with every AMD board/chip combination. But this is not what vendors have been telling me. They are telling me that on MS Windows OS (eg: XP) I can use either the AMD board/chip combination or the Intel board/chip combination but the boards and chips are not mutually compatible - AMD chips must go into AMD boards and Intel chips must go into Intel boards. Also, I am being told that some Debian software will operate on some AMD board/chip combinations but not others and that this has something to do with the specific kernel where one Debian kernel version will not run the same (for certain operations) as another version. So, I am confused and frustrated. I used to think that Debian kernels would all run without exception on either AMD or Intel board/chip combinations and the odd quirk in a kernel version would be resolved with a newer version. I was also told that the chip sets (including the MP chip(s) had different parameters and an Intel chip set combination was not compatible with an AMD chip set combination thus making the boards non compatible with one another. In fact, I am told, it is these other chips (including and working with the MP chip) that account for many differences some of which play havoc with certain Linux kernels. I am also told that indiscriminate use of a Debian kernel may bring problems that occur on an Intel system or vice-versa for a AMD system. Is there a CHART that matches Debian kernels to tested and acceptable AMD and Intel board/chip set matches while indicating limitations, constraints, and possible special operations for both??? I have seen this same question (in a variety of forms) asked on this forum as well as others but I haven't seen a complete answer. Thanks in advance, for any comments, technical references, etc. == Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debian-user] Re: AMD vs Intel and the Debian kernel
Kent West wrote: Ted Hilts wrote: Can someone enlighten me regarding my confusion with the term AMD. 1, I know that the term AMD (American Micro Devices) is supposed to be a 'second source' for Intel 32bit and 64bit microprocessors. You're incorrect. They're two totally different chips, which are mostly compatible at the instruction level. The two companies are competitors, not allies/partners. 2. Is there any significant architectural differences between the products manufactured by these two companies??? Absolutely. They're two totally different chips. 3. I ask the above question because it seems that the chips produced by one seem not be be plug in capable with the chips produced by the other -- it seems that the boards produced for one are different that the CPU boards produced for the other??? That's right, because they're two totally different chips, manufactured by two different competing companies. 4. I also ask the above question because over the last 2 years software problems seem to occur around one but not the other??? This problem occurs around that chip/company; that problem occurs around this chip/company. Everybody have problems, and the two chips/companies have different problems because they're two totally different chips/companies. 5. Also, there is a non-i386 computer containing the AMD acronymn listed with ARM and a dozen other non i386 computers listed by Debian. I understand this second listing of non i386 machines (one example being the Motorola 68xxx) but am confused about the AMD non i386 machines place in this listing. AMD manufactures both a 386-compatible chip, and non-386-compatible chips. One chip is more suited for use in 386-compatible computers (such as most end-user desktop machines); the other is more suited for use in different applications, perhaps such as iPhone-type phones or PDAs or car stereos or game consoles, etc. (I'm not up on the current hardware, so this is just a generalized answer, and should not be taken as specific information. Google has all the real answers for you.) 6. How is it that (for example) the Debian i386 AMD chip (some but not all) are more condusive to the Debian kernel for certain kinds of operations but not so with the Intel chip??? I base this on Debian documentation where the Intel chip is not even mentioned. Debian i386 AMD chip? Um, that doesn't even quite make sense. Debian doesn't manufacture chips. (Well, Ian and Debra may have cooked up a batch of home-made potato chips on occasion, but I'm not sure about their home-life, so you'd have to ask them.) Maybe I have just confused myself and every Intel board/chip combination is replaceable with every AMD board/chip combination. No, they are not replaceable with each other. It's much like Ford making pickups and cars and tractors; they're similar in some generalized way, and they're similar to pickups and cars and tractors from other manufacturers, but there are significant differences, and you can't expect to use a Ford tractor diesel motor in a Chevy Volt straight off the sales lot. But this is not what vendors have been telling me. They are telling me that on MS Windows OS (eg: XP) I can use either the AMD board/chip combination or the Intel board/chip combination but the boards and chips are not mutually compatible - AMD chips must go into AMD boards and Intel chips must go into Intel boards. True. Also, I am being told that some Debian software will operate on some AMD board/chip combinations but not others and that this has something to do with the specific kernel where one Debian kernel version will not run the same (for certain operations) as another version. This is true, just as you wouldn't expect a Ford tractor tire to fit on a Honda Accord. The Debian kernel has been written/modified to fit some boards/chips, but not others. So, I am confused and frustrated. I used to think that Debian kernels would all run without exception on either AMD or Intel board/chip combinations and the odd quirk in a kernel version would be resolved with a newer version. In the past, Debian has supported more architectures than other GNU/Linux OSes and (and I think that may still be true for GNU/Linux, although I think one of the BSDs has support for more architectures). Is there a CHART that matches Debian kernels to tested and acceptable AMD and Intel board/chip set matches while indicating limitations, constraints, and possible special operations for both??? Hopefully someone else may be able to answer this question. I have seen this same question (in a variety of forms) asked on this forum as well as others but I haven't seen a complete answer. I myself am a bit confused by your post. In the first part, you seem to indicate that you think all CPUs are created equally, but in the latter part, you seem to realize that there are differences
Re: debian-user] Re: AMD vs Intel and the Debian kernel
Jeff Soules wrote: AMD is a chip manufacturer. They started out (~20 years ago) as a second source for 286 processors, but since then they have been producing independently-designed chips within the x86 architecture (i.e. they use the same instruction set). (See: AMD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD x86 architecture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_architecture) So 1: AMD is a separate chip manufacturer. They are now a competitor, not a second source. 2. Is there any significant architectural differences between the products manufactured by these two companies??? Yes. I'm not an expert on what those differences are, but they are different chips with different hardware details. It looks like there are differences in the CPU pipeline length (or used to be), in the way some instructions are implemented, in number of cores available, etc. You can find out more by googling difference between amd and intel architecture or some such, a lot of the links I was finding are outdated though. Keep in mind both companies are releasing new chips every few months; something that was true in mid-2007 will not necessarily be true any more, etc. 3. I ask the above question because it seems that the chips produced by one seem not be be plug in capable with the chips produced by the other That is correct; they are not plug-in compatible. One needs an Intel motherboard for Intel processors and an AMD mobo for AMD processors. 4. I also ask the above question because over the last 2 years software problems seem to occur around one but not the other??? I haven't heard anything about this; I'm sure that one chip has different problems from another, but all have problems. 5. Also, there is a non-i386 computer containing the AMD acronymn listed with ARM and a dozen other non i386 computers listed by Debian. Not sure what you're referring to. http://www.debian.org/ports/ lists the different chip architectures supported by Debian. AMD64 (iirc, someone will doubtless correct me if I'm wrong) is separate because AMD chips had real 64-bit support before the Intel ones. i386 traditionally refers to the 32-bit x86 instruction set. 6. How is it that (for example) the Debian i386 AMD chip (some but not all) are more condusive to the Debian kernel for certain kinds of operations but not so with the Intel chip? Not sure what you're referring to. This is a pretty vague statement. What version of Debian were you planning to run? You should find both AMD and Intel chips supported perfectly well by the stable branch of Debian. The vendors are correct that you must use AMD motherboards with AMD processors, Intel motherboards with Intel processors; but either one should be capable of doing what the other does (within 32-bit applications). AMD implements the i386 instruction set; everything should work fine there. There will be some differences in 64-bit land, because not everyone supports 64-bit software at this point (Java, Flash, etc. are not yet released in 64-bit compatible versions). This requires some workaround but is generally manageable; software that is not available in 64-bit versions will usually just be run in 32-bit compatibility mode. (Modern kernels are available for both 64-bit and 32-bit architectures, of course; they just won't be identical, because one is built with 64-bit support, one is not). This isn't a processor-specific mailing list, so while I'm sure people here will be able to answer your questions, they won't necessarily be the best answers. It might be helpful if you could specify why you're asking, or what exactly you're trying to do. Best, Jeff Soules On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Ted Hilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone enlighten me regarding my confusion with the term AMD. 1, I know that the term AMD (American Micro Devices) is supposed to be a 'second source' for Intel 32bit and 64bit microprocessors. But it seems based on what I have read on this relationship between AMD and Intel that there is controversy, legal actions, competition, and architectural differences regarding the manufacture and selling of these microprocessors. So this suggests to me that AMD is not really a 'second source' (a licensed second manufacturing and selling source supplier of identical products as designed and manufactured by another company). 2. Is there any significant architectural differences between the products manufactured by these two companies??? 3. I ask the above question because it seems that the chips produced by one seem not be be plug in capable with the chips produced by the other -- it seems that the boards produced for one are different that the CPU boards produced for the other??? 4. I also ask the above question because over the last 2 years software problems seem to occur around one but not the other??? 5. Also, there is a non-i386 computer containing the AMD acronymn listed with ARM and a dozen other non i386
Re: Gnome desktop: mouse suddenly won't move to left screen
Andrew Perrin wrote: I'm sure this is something simple, but on my gnome desktop which uses an ATI dual-output card for a dual-screen layout, I suddenly can't move the mouse off the right-side screen. The left side is recognized by the resolution switcher, and displays fine, but there's no way (that I can see) to actually use the real estate. To my knowledge I have done nothing to make that happen. Here's my xorg.conf (below). System is running debian testing, Gnome 2.22.3, kernel 2.6.24. Thanks for *any* advice- Andy # /etc/X11/xorg.conf (xorg X Window System server configuration file) # # This file was generated by dexconf, the Debian X Configuration tool, using # values from the debconf database. # # Edit this file with caution, and see the /etc/X11/xorg.conf manual page. # (Type man /etc/X11/xorg.conf at the shell prompt.) # # This file is automatically updated on xserver-xorg package upgrades *only* # if it has not been modified since the last upgrade of the xserver-xorg # package. # # If you have edited this file but would like it to be automatically updated # again, run the following command: # sudo dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg Section ServerLayout Identifier Default Layout Screen 0 aticonfig-Screen[0] 0 0 Screen aticonfig-Screen[1] LeftOf aticonfig-Screen[0] InputDevice Generic Keyboard InputDevice Configured Mouse EndSection #Section ServerFlags # Option Xinerama ON #EndSection Section Files # path to defoma fonts FontPath /usr/share/fonts/X11/misc FontPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc FontPath /usr/share/fonts/X11/cyrillic FontPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic FontPath /usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi/:unscaled FontPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/:unscaled FontPath /usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi/:unscaled FontPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/:unscaled FontPath /usr/share/fonts/X11/Type1 FontPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1 FontPath /usr/share/fonts/X11/100dpi FontPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi FontPath /usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi FontPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi FontPath /var/lib/defoma/x-ttcidfont-conf.d/dirs/TrueType EndSection Section Module Load i2c Load bitmap Load ddc Load dri Load extmod Load freetype Load glx Load int10 Load type1 Load vbe Load v4l # Load radeon Load fglrx EndSection Section InputDevice Identifier Generic Keyboard Driver keyboard Option CoreKeyboard Option XkbRules xorg Option XkbModel pc104 Option XkbLayout us EndSection Section InputDevice Identifier Configured Mouse Driver mouse Option CorePointer Option Device /dev/input/mice Option Protocol ExplorerPS/2 Option Emulate3Buttons true EndSection Section Monitor Identifier aticonfig-Monitor[0] Option VendorName ATI Proprietary Driver Option ModelName Generic Autodetecting Monitor Option DPMS true EndSection Section Monitor Identifier aticonfig-Monitor[1] Option VendorName ATI Proprietary Driver Option ModelName Generic Autodetecting Monitor Option DPMS true # Modeline [EMAIL PROTECTED] 146.10 1440 1472 2024 2056 900 917 928 946 ModeLine 1440x900 106.5 1440 1520 1672 1904 900 903 909 934 # Modeline [EMAIL PROTECTED] 108.84 1440 1472 1880 1912 900 918 927 946 EndSection Section Device Identifier aticonfig-Device[0] Driver ati BusID PCI:10:9:0 EndSection Section Device Identifier aticonfig-Device[1] Driver ati BusID PCI:10:9:0 Screen 1 EndSection Section Screen Identifier aticonfig-Screen[0] Device aticonfig-Device[0] Monitor aticonfig-Monitor[0] DefaultDepth 24 SubSection Display Viewport 0 0 Depth 24 EndSubSection EndSection Section Screen Identifier aticonfig-Screen[1] Device aticonfig-Device[1] Monitor aticonfig-Monitor[1] DefaultDepth 24 SubSection Display Viewport 0 0 Depth 24 Modes 1440x900 EndSubSection EndSection Section DRI Group video Mode 0660 EndSection -- Andrew J Perrin - andrew_perrin (at) unc.edu - http://perrin.socsci.unc.edu Associate Professor of Sociology; Book Review Editor, _Social Forces_ University of North Carolina - CB#3210, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 USA Andrew J Perrin Could your problem be in the following section? Re: # Modeline [EMAIL PROTECTED] 146.10 1440 1472 2024 2056 900 917 928 946 ModeLine 1440x900 106.5 1440 1520 1672 1904 900 903 909 934 # Modeline [EMAIL PROTECTED] 108.84 1440 1472 1880 1912 900 918 927 946 Specifically: 1440x900 Section Monitor Identifier aticonfig-Monitor[1] Option VendorName ATI Proprietary Driver Option ModelName Generic Autodetecting Monitor Option DPMS true # Modeline [EMAIL PROTECTED] 146.10 1440 1472 2024 2056 900 917 928 946 ModeLine 1440x900 106.5 1440 1520 1672 1904 900 903 909 934 # Modeline [EMAIL PROTECTED] 108.84 1440 1472 1880 1912 900 918 927 946 EndSection Hope this suggestion helps -- Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: rsync backup to ext3-formatted usb flash drive?
Brian Wells wrote: On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 02:21 -0400, Rick Thomas wrote: On Aug 10, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Brian Wells wrote: Hi. I'm using svn-fast-backup (in the subversion-tools package) to make rsync backups of my subversion repository. The place I'm backing up to is on an ext3-formatted usb flash drive, and I'm wondering if this is a wise thing to do. I know that flash drive blocks wear out after a certain number of writes, and rsync uses hard links to avoid duplicate backup files. My question is, does this mean that the inodes' reference counts will be changed frequently enough that it might wear out that block of the flash drive any time soon? (I currently backup about 900 files one or two times a day.) If so, is ext3 capable of using another block for the inode, or will I lose the ability to read/write some files completely? Thanks, Brian Here are some basic facts about USB flash drives: The underlying NAND flash RAM is guaranteed for 100K writes (older technology) or 1M (more recent). After that it's retention time starts to decrease, sometimes to as little as a few weeks, and with continued use eventually to complete failure. The retention time of a new, fully-functional NAND flash RAM is hundreds of years. USB flash drives have controller chips in the drive that, among other things, talk USB protocol to the host. One of the other things they do is try to distribute the writes over the available blocks, extending the lifetime of the device beyond the raw lifetime of the underlying NAND flash. But the firmware in the controller usually assumes you are using a FAT file-system. If, for example, you use EXT3 rather than FAT, you will probably confuse it. I don't know what the effect will be on device life, but I'm guessing it will probably be something like a return to the behavior of the raw NAND flash. Write blocks are large (4-8K or more). If you update one inode in a block, you have to read the entire block, update the inode and write the entire block back again. Each write to an inode causes an effective write to all the inodes in the same block. So there's roughly a 64x multiplier (8Kbytes/block divided by 128bytes/inode = 64 inodes/block) in the number of writes. Thus any given single inode is good for roughly 16K updates before it wears out. Let's suppose your rsync backup causes a small number of updates for each inode it touches. Call it 10, conservatively (it very well could be as low as 1 or 2 -- I don't know enough of the details of how rsync works at the filesystem level). That gives you about 1600 rsync runs before you start to wear out the inodes. At twice a day, you can safely use your USB flash drive for 800 days, or between 2 and 3 years. So here's what I'd do. Use your USB flash drive for a year, then retire it to the long-term archives and replace it with a new one. Let that be one of those things you do on or near your birthday, like schedule a checkup with your Doctor. Also: dismount the flash drive, force an fsck, and remount it, every time you do a backup. This will read and sanity-check every inode on the drive, without doing any writes. If the fsck shows random errors, replace the drive because it's probably starting to wear out. Sound reasonable? Rick It does sound reasonable, with one sticking point: a lot of space in the flash drive will never be used. I should have mentioned that; despite having 900 files, the repository is currently only about 5 MB, and the drive itself is 4 GB. I'm looking at an alternative utility, svn-backup-dumps, in the same package. I could do ~800 full backups, or many more incremental backups with a full backup here and there, before running out of space. That would only write most blocks once or twice, and once it filled up I could erase old backups with only one write and reuse it, right? (If I do this, should I reformat to FAT so the controllers won't be confused?) Thanks, Brian It seems to me (given the above remarks) that you could define a block or file that contains your backup with suitable space for the year (as already suggested). I think using the FAT for filename suggestion, at the end of each year make the block containing your backup a read only block. FAT does not have the permissions as does EXT3 but can be set for read only operation. You can easily try this out using a test block. Each year (since you were concerned about unused space) you would then define a new block with the beginning of the new block as the contents of the previous block unless of course you don't want to keep all the old backup info. Hope you find this suggestion helpful. Thanks, Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting started with Xen -- Xen enabled kernel for Lenny?
Martin My reply is at the very bottom. Ted Martin Marcher wrote: Jozef Peterka wrote: Hi all, I might be rushing in to conversation, but I will try to install Debian Etch and make it Dom0 this very weekend. I really look forward to it - although with a little hope to success :) Nevermind, I wanted wish you good luck with xen, and the important is let everybody here know what happened. I will do that after weekend as well, I will post my experience in a short mail to this threat. xen runs fine in etch i have ~15 domUs running on 2 physical machines with ~50LVs attached. not a single problem regarding xen on either of those. hth martin Martin What is the exact kernel version you are running on both machines and what are their CPU designations? The problems in the past have not been with the distribution but with various kernels. Did you compile your systems from source or did you use pre-compiled packages? Did you compile the source and apply a patch for the kernels or did you use kernel binaries with the Xen package already compiled into the kernel binaries? Looking forward to this information. Thanks, Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting started with Xen -- Xen enabled kernel for Lenny?
Martin Thanks for your information, you will find my reply further down. Martin Marcher wrote: On Thursday 24 January 2008 17:13 Ted Hilts wrote: Martin What is the exact kernel version you are running on both machines and what are their CPU designations? The problems in the past have not been with the distribution but with various kernels. Did you compile your systems from source or did you use pre-compiled packages? Did you compile the source and apply a patch for the kernels or did you use kernel binaries with the Xen package already compiled into the kernel binaries? the xen package isn't compiled into the kernel afaik, you still need some userland stuff to start/stop (interface) the domUs. Martin Thanks for your information further down from these comments. I did not snip out the information below my following comments as I thought the information to be useful not just to me but to others that may be aware of our dialog. As I remember, the package as I call it consists of 2 integrated parcels of code. One parcel of code is integrated into the kernel as a patch and the other as you mentioned is like a dependent parcel for managing the operations. But definitely, the kernel is altered and has attributes the un-patched kernel does not have. So one either applies the patch or one gets a binary that has already been patched. Sounds to me you obtained a kernel binary that was pre-patched for use with Xen. There is no way the ordinary kernel can become the core of an Xen system without the patch. However, Intel hardware changes associated with the CPU chip may change that -- I simply do not know. Also, I was talking about kernel versions higher than yours (up in the twenties where yours was 18) and 32 bit. But whether the CPU is 32 bit on 64bit machines could be a problem, I don't know. Also, the AMD was the only working CPU architecture available on Debian and I don't know why that was the case. Many people do not use AMD as their CPU architecture. Somewhere, just before etch was declared as STABLE the AMD Xen stuff failed to work properly and this condition was verified by someone (I don't have the name handy) who was doing some kind of liaison between Debian and Xen. That's why I said it did not work on Debian. This liaison person has already confirmed that and was attempting to find a way around no Debian Xen until the next stable version (which seems to be on its way or is already here). So it seems by my information the Xen Debian problem occurred on the 2.6 kernel at some point and there were many requests on the debian-user list asking why they could not get the AMD Xen stuff to work. So it will be interesting to see if things have now changed. I don't doubt your set up works and works well but I am willing to bet that the etch stable kernel version will not work for you. Maybe, with Debian 4.0 the problem has been resolved -- hope so! I did not snip out the rest of the stuff. Thanks -- Ted Looking forward to this information. Thanks, Ted aptitude install xen-linx-image-2.6-xen-amd64 no i'm not joking, those with the hypervisor and ioemu and i was set, I had the 2 or 3 minor updates since etch release and all of those kernels worked fine. the dom0 doesn't have anything apart from the official etch repos http://packages.debian.org/etch/linux-image-2.6-xen-amd64 aptitude search ~ixen i A linux-image-2.6-xen-amd64 - Linux kernel 2.6 image on AMD64 i A linux-image-2.6.18-5-xen-amd64 - Linux 2.6.18 image on AMD64 i linux-image-xen-amd64 - Linux kernel image on AMD64 i A linux-modules-2.6.18-5-xen-amd6 - Linux 2.6.18 modules on AMD64 i xen-hypervisor-3.0.3-1-amd64- The Xen Hypervisor on AMD64 i xen-utils-3.0.3-1 - XEN administrative tools i A xen-utils-common- XEN administrative tools - common files First Box (2 cores/1 cpu): cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : AuthenticAMD cpu family : 15 model : 39 model name : AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 146 stepping: 1 cpu MHz : 2009.290 cache size : 1024 KB fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 1 wp : yes flags : fpu tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic mtrr mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow pni lahf_lm bogomips: 5024.69 TLB size: 1024 4K pages clflush size: 64 cache_alignment : 64 address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual power management: ts fid vid ttp Second Box (4 cores/2 cpus): $ cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : AuthenticAMD cpu family : 15 model : 65 model name : Dual-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 2212 HE stepping: 2 cpu MHz : 2000.070 cache size : 1024 KB physical id : 0 siblings: 1 core id : 0 cpu cores : 1 fpu : yes fpu_exception
Re: Getting started with Xen -- Xen enabled kernel for Lenny?
Rick My response at very bottom. Ted Rick Thomas wrote: I'm trying to get started with Xen. I've installed Lenny and a bunch of packages that looked interesting and mentioned Xen in their descriptions. But there does not seem to be a Xen enabled kernel available. Is Xen built-in to the Lenny kernels, or what? I plan to spend tonite with my feet up in the easy chair reading the documents in /usr/share/doc/Xen-docs-3.1/ . I hope they will be helpful, but they don't seem to mention Debian specifically. I've googled every which way, but everything I find is for Etch or Sarge and expects me to have a Xen enabled kernel. More generally, is there a HOWTO or FAQ that would give me some pointers to getting Xen up and running? Thanks! Rick Hi Rick Sorry for any typos. There is a problem for newer Debian kernels (as in the etch distribution) and Xen. They just don't work and there is currently no patch to save the day. Ubuntu has Xen based recent kernels which apparently work well but I have not yet tried them. The Xen web site has 3 Xen options one of which I think is still free. Either one of these 3 options can be installed providing a DOM 0 basic virtualizing machine. Also, some of the other Linux distributions like SuSE have Xen based kernels. Xen based kernels are regular kernels but have the Xen application compiled into them making them the basis for hardware virtualization and thus called DOM 0 meaning the virtualization machine that redirects system calls from DOM U distributions. A DOM U distribution is virtualized meaning that during the time slice for a particular DOM U distribution it's system calls get re-routed to the DOM 0 computer resources (mostly hardware including CPU, memory, drives, LAN interface, etc.). DOM U distributions each have their own partition and are activated by the DOM 0 Xen application as a virtual machine.. There can be as many as 64 partitions in total including the partition for DOM 0. Most designers prefer to have the DOM 0 Xen system as a minimal distribution. The DOM 0 distribution can create virtual machines from it's own distribution so that you might have several virtual machines each doing one important thing instead of the conventional way where all these things get done on the one distribution. Of course, you can run other Linux distributions as DOM U installations. This is what makes Xen most efficient. Your fastest, safest, and best solution right now would be to get one of the 3 optional systems offered by the Xen developers. Apparently, they have a blog and I know they have a list. I have a download of the free Xen package on a CD which is now a year old and which I will be installing on a computer. I will install a large Debian distribution as well as smaller Debian distributions each in their own partition and use them as virtual machines. DOM 0 will be the free Xen package which took me a week to download and now I am trying to find it. The Xen documentation describes how the DOM 0 machine is made aware of the DOM U partitions with their respective distributions. BTW, you can now take a Windowz distribution like XP or more recent and run it as a DOM U virtual machine.That's neat if you have applications like I have that can only run on Windowz. But you have to buy a license from MS. Hope this information gets you going. There is one fellow on the debian-user list that has had a Linux Xen system running for about 2 years or more but that system would be running on an older kernel and he would have compiled the Xen application into the kernel and I think he used the AMD CPU. A number of people have tried to update their older Debian kernel with patches which automatically makes their system non operational. I think Debian really missed the importance of Xen and to get a Debian DOM 0 system from the etch distribution was not possible. Apparently there is a new distribution by what I hear on the list chatter. That distribution I am not aware of other than it is Debian 4.x distribution. Hopefully, if that is the case there may now be kernels available with the Xen application installed. Have a nice day and if you get Xen up and running please be kind enough to let the list know about your configuration and other issues as there have been many over the last few years that have wanted help and advice. I reiterate, your best chance of success is to run out of the Xen box as provided by the Xen developers. Thanks -- Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] Dumped off the list
I can't seem to stay on this list for more than a couple of weeks and then no more list traffic. This only happens with the debian-user list and not any of the other debian lists. Every few weeks I get knocked off the Debian user list and I get no more traffic from the list. This only happens with the debian-user list as I have no problem with any of the other debian lists and non debian lists. When this happens I am unable to resubscribe because the debian list emal server still thinks I am subscribed. This whole situation is getting painful -- does anyone else have this problem or a suggestion. Please send your response directly to me as I have not yet been able to subscribe and therefore would not see your response. Sorry if you are one of those who responded to my last email to the list. Thanks -- Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] Dumped off the list
Ron Johnson wrote: On 01/08/08 15:05, Ted Hilts - Thunderbird Acct. wrote: I can't seem to stay on this list for more than a couple of weeks and then no more list traffic. This only happens with the debian-user list and not any of the other debian lists. [huge blank line snippage] Every few weeks I get knocked off the Debian user list and I get no more traffic from the list. This only happens with the debian-user list as I have no problem with any of the other debian lists and non debian lists. When this happens I am unable to resubscribe because the debian list emal server still thinks I am subscribed. This whole situation is getting painful -- does anyone else have this problem or a suggestion. Please send your response directly to me as I have not yet been able to subscribe and therefore would not see your response. Sorry if you are one of those who responded to my last email to the list. Thanks -- Ted [huge blank line snippage] Maybe you (or your Telus IP range) ae getting blacklisted by spam destroyers? Could be but my ISP is praying for the day they never see me on their services so I cannot get any help there if they are the problem. I could not help but notice the large amount of my email for various Debian lists that they deem as SPAM. They apparently take legitimate Debian list traffic and generate a SPAM warning which then causes my set up to miss the traffic. But the problem of NO debian-user traffic maybe coming directly from the list server or someone who has figured out how to mess with it. Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] Debian Repository Usage
I obtained the full set of Ubuntu disks, installed the desktop stuff and now have a working system without SERVERS. It seems the servers come on another disk separate from the LIVE/INSTALL desktop software. The server CD is an INSTALL only and not a LIVE CD. This means I would have to over write the desktop installation. I tried using the Ubuntu POOL directory on the sever CD but although it looks like it was installing it turns out it was not. So I tried using aptitude which very nicely rushed off to the Ubuntu repository. But I want it to run off to the Debian repository because there are a lot of special packages (like OCTAVE) and others. My question: Is there a way of telling apt-get or some other debian package to go to the Debian REPOSITORY and fetch and install a particular item such as the SAMBA server and other servers. What would be the bash command line for this kind of operation? Could someone provide me with the command line for the SAMBA server as an example. I need to over ride the present behavior of apt-get or aptitude so they reference packages in the Debian Repository. I have been reading documentation but can't find information on this specific issue. Thanks in advance, Ted Hilts. BTW, I have resubscribed but have not seen any evidence that list traffic is now coming to me so please be sure to include me ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) so I at least get the reply. Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: Bug#454604: linux-2.6: Xen kernel packages for 2.6.22]
Scott Per your subject and attachments. Hope this will be helpful. I don't think your problem can be resolved at the current time because of your kernel patch. Below find correspondence and URLs which explain why. * Brian Almeida: I've been unable to find an official debian kernel which has Xen supporter after 2.6.18-5 (released with etch). While I realize there were changes in later kernels that complicated the patches, Ubuntu has had Xen support for 2.6.22 for nearly 3 months (see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/132726). Can you please integrate their Xen patchesets into the official Debian kernels? The XenSource upstream is sort-of defunct these days. For some background information, see: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-xen/2007-November/msg00106.html http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XenPvops and... from me: I am a new subscriber with bug listing and have been following the BUGS. I also am very confused and upset with how Debian development and bug efforts regarding XEN seem to be avoided. I have followed XEN development and bugs since the onset and attempted in vain to create any aggressive interest in the debian-user list. At the time ETCH was released I spoke to an individual in Xen development who was also concerned and he said he would pressure release people in Debian to make some kind of special allowance to add XEN into the ETCH distribution -- apparently he was successful but there appears to be little effort to go further (to incorporate changes and bugs) because of the way the release mechanism works for Debian releases. So it appears -- until the next official Debian release -- there will be no more changes. There has to be a way of handling the situation for projects external to Debian but need to be part of Debian. I suggest possibly something like an unofficial release overlay such that these special releases get utilized into the distribution but have no official sanction -- which I think Ubuntu has essentially done. Ubuntu has sufficient independence from Debian that it can deal with these kind of issues it's own way. Debian should also have that kind of flexibility but in a way that does not disrupt Debian releases. With all the brilliant Debian developers, maintainers, and people with experience I can not see how this kind of situation can persist. Thanks -- Ted Hilts Otavio Salvador wrote: Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Brian Almeida: I've been unable to find an official debian kernel which has Xen supporter after 2.6.18-5 (released with etch). While I realize there were changes in later kernels that complicated the patches, Ubuntu has had Xen support for 2.6.22 for nearly 3 months (see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/132726). Can you please integrate their Xen patchesets into the official Debian kernels? The XenSource upstream is sort-of defunct these days. For some background information, see: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-xen/2007-November/msg00106.html http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/XenPvops Indeed. Looks like XEN will have bad days until it's done for paravirt_ops then :-) See TOP of this email chain! To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Scott Edwards wrote: Currently I have this installed on the host, running etch: ii xen-hypervisor-3.0.3-1-amd643.0.3-0-4 The Xen Hypervisor ii xen-ioemu-3.0.3-1 3.0.3-0-4 XEN administrative ii xen-linux-system-2.6.18-5-xen-vserver-amd64 2.6.18.dfsg.1-13etch4 XEN system with Li ii xen-tools 2.8-2 Tools to manage de ii xen-utils-3.0.3-1 3.0.3-0-4 XEN administrative ii xen-utils-common3.0.3-0-2 XEN administrative In a vserver guest (roughly root in a chroot with few capabilities) I have sid installed. I setup this vserver guest primarily to isolate the build env from the host. Both host and guest are amd64 in 64bit mode. While trying to compile the xen-unstable source package, I ran into bug #399700. I submitted a patch (attached) to use linux-support-2.6.22-3 instead of linux-support-2.6.17-2. I'm attempting to backport this (eventually) to etch to hopefully overcome an issue where guests are unable to partition the disk. My study of the disk image I provide them, shows no data is modified past the partition table. I tried writing 0x00's and also 0xFF's to the first 100 sectors or so with little to no success for the guest. I decided to try the upstream 3.1.0 tarball, and after applying changes to the makefiles (c/o warningsAreNoteErrors.sh.txt), A few new warnings seen with a newer gcc (harmless?) allow the dist-tools and dist-xen
[debian-user] Browser Question -- Not urgent --respond if you have time
I am trying to pin down a general kind of problem occuring with a number of applications on both Windo and Linux. This is not urgent so look at this problem if you have time or interest. I am having a problem with a number of capture type applications one of which is a Firefox add-on. But this is just one application I use as an example as it looks to me like the same or similar kind of problem is occurring to several applications running on several machines and I have even experiences this same or similar kind of problem on both Windo as well as Linux OS platforms. Here goes -- remember my firefox add-on which is a capture type application is just an example. I think I might better understand the source of the problem if I knew better the browser protocol when responding to a URL and the RSS protocol. One (of several) applications I am having a problem with is called scrapbook but my question is more general. I am trying to figure out if the problem is the result of my limited bandwidth (dial up) because the process failure behavior closely resembles a failed browser completion or download completion while downloading or capturing a web page or other file and the fetch often process just hangs part way through the process. I note that with a browser there is the reload or equivalent operation which restarts the browser. With my dial up ISP connection it is very common for me to have to reload -- often several times over when the Internet traffic is slow and some servers are also slow and the web page is large. So this has got me thinking that my problem with the scrapbook (and other capture type) application might be closely related to my problem with browsers and I would like to understand that fetching process better. For example the he scrapbook web page capture application puts out little messages like, connecting, loading, transfer of data, and since it is a web page capturing application it indcates capture of the web page into a file. My question is more about the connecting, loading and transfer of data which are probably the same kind of operations and protocol that a browser uses. What exactly is the difference between loading and transfer of data? I think loading involves the file names and/or sections within the web page and transfer of data involves the data in those files -- for example, the CSS file or the use of Javascript or tables, etc. But this is just an educated guess based on building web pages and I wanted to get the opinion of others more knowledgeable on brower and capture operations. The reason I don't want to talk about the scrapbook application specifically is because I have the same kind of problem with other capture type applications such as Offline Explorer and others and the problem occurs on all my computers. All these applications involve interaction with the Internet and the acquirement of web pages. Some of my applications are more robust and recover from a broken dial up connection and some don't. My data aquisition tasks are (capture of web pages) all done on 3 or 4 Windozz machines because a lot of these particular applications either are not available on Linux. But I have several Linux machines doing this kind of acquisition and the problem is the same but fewer applications on Linux. For example, the firefox add-ons are often not available on Linux. I did several years ago try to run wget and wput and other applications inside perl and bash scripts and even then I encountered this hanging problem. I am looking for confirmation or other opinions from the Debian user group because I may be missing something significant. I have this nagging worry that perhaps OS resources (about which I know little in the way of socket operation, etc.) on both Windoz as well as Linux may also be involved that may result is time-outs because of a slow and crowded Internet connection. I have now waited 2 years for a fast Internet connection and it should be soon here and I don't want to find out to my surprise that I still have this problem to the same degree. Any advise from anyone having had similar problems would be very welcome. Thanks -- Ted BTW, everyone have a nice day! Our temperature low here in North Alberta, Canada is about -15 degrees Celsius. Add in the wind factor and the layer of snow and we are talking COLD although I've seen it much colder out here. The fast Internet people came out yesterday and they could not install the connection because of the ice all over the scaffolding and roof. Waited 2 years and now still waiting. . -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-users] minicom or ISP? - No urgency - answer if you have time.
This question is informational and there is no urgency. When dialing up my ISP in an interactive mode providing user name and password I get a third prompt with the prompt message AiiNET. So now I get 3 prompts: user name, password, and AiiNET where before I just got the 2 prompts user name and password. The ISP would not help saying that they don't support Linux. The ISP has a monopoly out here is rural Alberta, Canada. Since there are some very experienced people on the list maybe someone has run into this third prompt. As I said, it is a relatively new prompt which does not always occur (and I have a somewhat clumsy work-around). Has anyone else run into this situation where the AiiNET prompt occurs during manual dial up? In the following paragraph I provide more detail. I use a package called minicom on a Linux machine running Slackware which is my lan gateway machine to the Internet via dial up to my ISP. I don't think minicom is a debian package (but it may be by some other name).. I am gradually migrating my lan Linux machines over to Debian but still have to maintain this Slackware unit until I can get a fast Internet connection and the switch or router will head end everything. I am not sure if the question is about minicom or about the ISP. When the dial up connection is lost minicom is not evoked and so Linux brings up the connection automatically. Initially using minicom basically sets up the dial up modem and thereafter all interaction with the ISP is automatic. So when it is automatic I don't really know the details of the interaction. Thanks, Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-users] minicom or ISP? - No urgency - answer if you have time.
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Fri, Nov 16, 2007 at 03:08:11PM -0700, Ted Hilts - Thunderbird Acct. wrote: When dialing up my ISP in an interactive mode providing user name and password I get a third prompt with the prompt message AiiNET. So now I get 3 prompts: user name, password, and AiiNET where before I just got the 2 prompts user name and password. The ISP would not help saying that they don't support Linux. The ISP has a monopoly out here is rural Alberta, Canada. Since there are some very experienced people on the list maybe someone has run into this third prompt. As I said, it is a relatively new prompt which does not always occur (and I have a somewhat clumsy work-around). Has anyone else run into this situation where the AiiNET prompt occurs during manual dial up? In the following paragraph I provide more detail. I've never seen an AiiNET prompt. What is the required response? I use a package called minicom on a Linux machine running Slackware which is my lan gateway machine to the Internet via dial up to my ISP. I don't think minicom is a debian package (but it may be by some other name).. Minicom is a normal debian package. I am gradually migrating my lan Linux machines over to Debian but still have to maintain this Slackware unit until I can get a fast Internet connection and the switch or router will head end everything. Why? What can Slackware do that Debian can't? You don't need a fast internect connetion to run Debian. I am not sure if the question is about minicom or about the ISP. When the dial up connection is lost minicom is not evoked and so Linux brings up the connection automatically. I don't understand what you're saying here. Initially using minicom basically sets up the dial up modem and thereafter all interaction with the ISP is automatic. So when it is automatic I don't really know the details of the interaction. You should only need to use minicom to set up a modem once ever (unless you need to reprogram it again later). You should be able to set up pppconfig to issue whatever connection strings you need. Doug. You said: I've never seen an AiiNET prompt. What is the required response?' I wish I knew -- I tried all kinds of responses! You also said: You don't need a fast internet connection to run Debian which is true. I was only commenting that the Slackware Linux machine won't be needed once I get a fast Internet connection. At that time hopefully I will get a static IP address and the router or switch will control all internet connections going into and out of the lan. You also indicated that Minicom is a Debian package. That's nice to know. Also, you mentioned that You should be able to set up pppconfig to issue whatever connection strings you need. I think pppconfig is working okay. But probably I could pass pppconfig the string Minicom uses to condition the dial up modem if I knew how to set it up in pppconfig. Finally: I am not sure if the question is about minicom or about the ISP. When the dial up connection is lost minicom is not evoked and so Linux brings up the connection automatically. I don't understand what you're saying here. What I was trying to say is that I am not sure where the AiiNET prompt is coming from. Is it coming from the ISP or is it being manufactured by Minicom as some respone. I think the AiiNET prompt is coming from the ISP just as the user and password prompts are coming the the ISP. If that were not the case then there would have been by now many Debian Minicom users knowledgeable regarding the prompt. Have a nice day Doug and Thanks for your input -- Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-users] minicom or ISP? - No urgency - answer if you have time.
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Friday 16 November 2007, Ted Hilts - Thunderbird Acct. wrote: This question is informational and there is no urgency. I'm not going to cover what has the first response has said, but I have a bit I can add: When dialing up my ISP in an interactive mode providing user name and password I get a third prompt with the prompt message AiiNET. So now I get 3 prompts: user name, password, and AiiNET where before I just got the 2 prompts user name and password. The ISP would not help saying that they don't support Linux. Do NOT EVER tell your ISP you're using Linux. Find whatever way you can avoid saying that. Tell them you're using an old DOS program or something. You could say you're using it as a requirement for your job. Yes, it's a lie, and I don't advocate that, but never tell any ISP you're using Linux. That's their immediate excuse to not help you and for everything to be your fault. ...Has anyone else run into this situation where the AiiNET prompt occurs during manual dial up? In the following paragraph I provide more detail. Have you tried just asking them what to type in response to this prompt? Don't specify an OS or anything else. Again, you're just using a DOS prompt. If that doesn't work, do you have any way of connecting with a Windows system and monitoring your transmission? Perhaps using something like Ethereal? (Does Ethereal watch dial up? Don't remember.) That might let you intercept what their software uses as a response. I use a package called minicom on a Linux machine running Slackware which is my lan gateway machine to the Internet via dial up to my ISP. I don't think minicom is a debian package (but it may be by some other name).. Minicom is one of the best term programs out there. I used it a lot in testing and developing the software I use for the business I run. It is a Debian package and is a package in most distros. This is not a Minicom question. It's a What response to I send to the AiiNet prompt? question. Have you tried just hitting enter and seeing what happens? What else do you use for connecting? Do you use a program like KPPP without any problem? If so, can you monitor what goes through the device and see what you get? While Minicom is a great program, remember that dial up ISPs don't expect a text terminal. They expect a program that responds to their prompts, then establishes a PPP or TCP/IP connection (it's been so long I don't remember what they use!), so even if you respond to this prompt, you probably won't get anything useful to Minicom. Hal Thanks for your respnse. You more or less agree that the AiiNET prompt is coming from the ISP. The ISP technical support department head told me they have never seen the prompt and have no idea at all what it could be. In other words, they simply don't know and don't care to know and as you said they blame Linux for the problem. BTW: Isn't it some form of discrimination to provide ISP services and support for Windoz and Mac while turning a blind eye to Linux??? That's how my ISP behaves. I think that in Europe it is apparently law for computer manufacturers not to favor one OS over all the others? Also, I think in Europe it is against the law for a computer manufacturer to pre-load only Windoz. So this is very much the same kind of problem with ISP providers -- would you agree? Thanks also for all the advice, most of the tracking packages you mentioned are knew to me. Mostly though, I just wanted to be sure from where the AiiNET was originating. Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-users] minicom or ISP? - No urgency - answer if you have time.
John Hasler wrote: Thunderbird Acct. wrote: When dialing up my ISP in an interactive mode providing user name and password I get a third prompt with the prompt message AiiNET. Some ISPs respond with a username/password prompt when you use an interactive program but expect PAP authenication when they see a PPP connection. Run pppconfig as root, answer the questions, and then use pon to start the connection and poff to stop it. If you want dial-on-demand go into the Advanced menu in pppconfig. Thanks John, I will try that! Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-users] minicom or ISP? - No urgency - answer if you have time.
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Saturday 17 November 2007, Ted Hilts wrote: ... What I was trying to say is that I am not sure where the AiiNET prompt is coming from. Is it coming from the ISP or is it being manufactured by Minicom as some respone. I think the AiiNET prompt is coming from the ISP just as the user and password prompts are coming the the ISP. If that were not the case then there would have been by now many Debian Minicom users knowledgeable regarding the prompt. As I understand it, or from my experience, if Minicom needs input, it prompts with a curses type window. It does not issue prompts in the middle of a session. Just out of curiosity, I loaded the Minicom file into KHexEdit and searched for AiiNET. There's no instance of that string in the file. Other prompts and messages are easy to find, so it's definitely NOT coming from Minicom. Hal Hal That's nice to know as it pretty well settles the origin of the AiiNET prompt as coming from the ISP Again, thanks for your input, Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] Subject Confusion
Please see the original email (further down) sent yesterday to the list. Would someone like to explain how my ORIGINAL email to the Debian List turned into the following: On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 01:17:27PM +0200, Martin Marcher wrote: Hello, the debian mailing lists use the per RFC[1] suggested headers for mailing lists, i attached them below, my suggestion is to use the List-ID header and bug other mailing list admins wherever possible to use that header, it is the most reliable source to filter mailinglist As I am subscribed to about 30 Mailing Lists I always find it disturbing when these header infos are missing as they also provide the info where to unsubscribe, get help etc. What mailing list software doesn't include those headers? Regards, -Roberto P.S. I find it disturbing when people top post. (I kid) -- Roberto C. Sánchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com ORIGINAL EMAIL SENT YESTERDAY (emphasis not yelling) I get hundreds of email a day including email from the Debian List. Nearly all other Linux lists use square brackets to enclose a meaningful word for the list identification. Most everyone in the world uses Re, Re , or Re: which is fine when the subject is prefixed with [List-ID]. I don't seem to have a way of filtering the Debian List email from non Debian email because of this insistence of the Debian List to use Re at the beginning of the subject. Whereas, I have no such problem with the greater majority of other lists because the first part of the subject identifies these other lists. Also, and only from the Debian Lists, I get BLANK subjects -- lots of them. The point here is that it would be nice as well as professional if one could automatically filter and view email according to a single convention which most of the other lists have done. In my view, using Re subject when subject can be anything is confusing and blank subject makes no sense to me at all. I use (and will continue to use) THUNDERBIRD for Linux, MS, and other email correspondence. Perhaps someone could suggest how I might bridge this problem with Debian email. Thanks -- Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] Subject Confusion
Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 10:24:48AM -0600, Ted Hilts - Thunderbird Acct. wrote: Please see the original email (further down) sent yesterday to the list. Would someone like to explain how my ORIGINAL email to the Debian List turned into the following: I saw your original mail (of which you sent two copies to this list... at least it appeared that way). That mail spawned a discussion of how to properly sort email. At least one poster tried to kill the discussion of subjuect munging as its been chewed to death here many times. The thread evolved into suggestions that you sort your mail not by subject but by the various headers that are included in list mail. So that subject drifted slightly from your original question, but was still, to my eye, topical to your problem. Namely, that ou were having trouble sorting mail from debian-user. The standard, accepted practice around here is to sort on the List-Id header. Does that answer your question? A On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 01:17:27PM +0200, Martin Marcher wrote: Hello, the debian mailing lists use the per RFC[1] suggested headers for mailing lists, i attached them below, my suggestion is to use the List-ID header and bug other mailing list admins wherever possible to use that header, it is the most reliable source to filter mailinglist As I am subscribed to about 30 Mailing Lists I always find it disturbing when these header infos are missing as they also provide the info where to unsubscribe, get help etc. What mailing list software doesn't include those headers? Regards, -Roberto P.S. I find it disturbing when people top post. (I kid) -- Roberto C. Sánchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com ORIGINAL EMAIL SENT YESTERDAY (emphasis not yelling) I get hundreds of email a day including email from the Debian List. Nearly all other Linux lists use square brackets to enclose a meaningful word for the list identification. Most everyone in the world uses Re, Re , or Re: which is fine when the subject is prefixed with [List-ID]. I don't seem to have a way of filtering the Debian List email from non Debian email because of this insistence of the Debian List to use Re at the beginning of the subject. Whereas, I have no such problem with the greater majority of other lists because the first part of the subject identifies these other lists. Also, and only from the Debian Lists, I get BLANK subjects -- lots of them. The point here is that it would be nice as well as professional if one could automatically filter and view email according to a single convention which most of the other lists have done. In my view, using Re subject when subject can be anything is confusing and blank subject makes no sense to me at all. I use (and will continue to use) THUNDERBIRD for Linux, MS, and other email correspondence. Perhaps someone could suggest how I might bridge this problem with Debian email. Thanks -- Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Interesting! Yes, I understand what you and the others have determined. I have just made the appropriate changes to THUNDERBIRD using the To or cc header with the value debian-user@lists.debian.org Some who responded said to use the From header but were corrected to use the To or the To or cc header. Thanks to all if it works. Assume it does work unless you hear further from me on this issue. Ted PS: BTW Andrew, I am posting on the bottom but still feel uncomfortable about posting that way because this confuses many who do business on the Internet. At least that's my experience. So now I end up posting at the bottom for Linux Lists and posting top and bottom for non Linux Lists. I assume posting at the bottom is common to most Linux Lists. Have a good day -- Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] [OT] Subject Confusion
I get hundreds of email a day including email from the Debian List. Nearly all other Linux lists use square brackets to enclose a meaningful word for the list identification. Most everyone in the world uses Re, Re , or Re: which is fine when the subject is prefixed with [List-ID]. I don't seem to have a way of filtering the Debian List email from non Debian email because of this insistence of the Debian List to use Re at the beginning of the subject. Whereas, I have no such problem with the greater majority of other lists because the first part of the subject identifies these other lists. Also, and only from the Debian Lists, I get BLANK subjects -- lots of them. The point here is that it would be nice as well as professional if one could automatically filter and view email according to a single convention which most of the other lists have done. In my view, using Re subject when subject can be anything is confusing and blank subject makes no sense to me at all. I use (and will continue to use) THUNDERBIRD for Linux, MS, and other email correspondence. Perhaps someone could suggest how I might bridge this problem with Debian email. Thanks -- Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] Subject Confusion
I get hundreds of email a day including email from the Debian List. Nearly all other Linux lists use square brackets to enclose a meaningful word for the list identification. Most everyone in the world uses Re, Re , or Re: which is fine when the subject is prefixed with [List-ID]. I don't seem to have a way of filtering the Debian List email from non Debian email because of this insistence of the Debian List to use Re at the beginning of the subject. Whereas, I have no such problem with the greater majority of other lists because the first part of the subject identifies these other lists. Also, and only from the Debian Lists, I get BLANK subjects -- lots of them. The point here is that it would be nice as well as professional if one could automatically filter and view email according to a single convention which most of the other lists have done. In my view, using Re subject when subject can be anything is confusing and blank subject makes no sense to me at all. I use (and will continue to use) THUNDERBIRD for Linux, MS, and other email correspondence. Perhaps someone could suggest how I might bridge this problem with Debian email. Thanks -- Ted Hilts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: matlab r2007a installation problems
Hardestadt wrote: Hi! I have a problem when i try to install matlab r2007a on my debian etch. When i execute the installation scipt, i get the following error: [b]An error status was returned by the program 'xsetup', the X Window System version of 'install'. The following messages were written to standard error: /home/ferran/matlab/update/bin/glnx86/xsetup: error while loading shared libraries: /home/ferran/matlab/update/bin/glnx86/libmwins.so: invalid ELF header Attempt to fix the problem and try again. If X is not available or 'xsetup' cannot be made to work then try the terminal version of 'install' using the command: install* -torINSTALL* -t[/b] I also tried to install it without X, but it still fail. Any help will be welcome! (I have a nvidia correctly installed if it helps) Hardestadt MatLab is not a Debian product. Octave however is similar to MatLab and Octave is Debian Open and Free. You should give Octave a try even if you have MatLab. Since MatLab is not supported by Debian you should try MatLab support. It would seem you have acquired MatLab under one of the purchase plans associated with MatLab. That means you are entitled to installation support from the company that sells MatLab. I think MatLab is supposed to install without problems on both Windows and Linux. Personally, I gave up on MatLab because it was too costly to purchase and I did not qualify for a student rate. However, since you have the product you should register with the MatLab support group. They should be happy to help you out and MatLab support would be responsible for resolving any difficulties with whatever version of Linux on which you were installing MatLab. I am not sure if MatLab works on all versions of Linux and I think you should check with the MatLab support or the MatLab web page to be sure that MatLab works on the Debian distribution. I kind of remember that it may only work on RedHat so you had better check this out. Sorry I cannot be of any direct help Thanks, hope things work out, Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SU error
Jake Betty Kraayenbrink wrote: I installed debian from the live knoppix CD it’s version 5.1. It works great, but I do have trouble when I try to run any thing that needs administrator privileges. When I click on something say to configure my printer I get this message “Su returned with an error”. If someone know what I can do that would be great. Thanks It sounds to me like you installed a desktop. Drop out of desktop mode and (using the printer example) check to see if the normal printer commands were loaded. Look up the commands in man page so you can see the options and try them from the command line. It may be that you were not in administrator mode when you downloaded using Knoppix. If the commands were installed and do not work -- that is you continue to get this error message then check out the permissions. Use ls -l path-to-the-command to see if the permissions make sense. For example, the printer commands should be executable and that sort of thing. If the commands seem to have the right user and permissions it means everything installed okay but if the commands are not there then the problem is you need to reinstall and if the commands are there and not working you may need to use chown to the correct owner and perhaps chmod for the correct permissions. Check man pages for use of chown and chmod. Just play with one group of commands such as the printer group and begin with just one of the commands. If you think the issue is permission or ownership try root if it shows something else or something else if it shows root. I am assming you understand these concepts. If not you will require more detailed help than I am providing. You may also have to check to verify if the group and password files are functional on your system. Again, I assume you know where to look and what to look for. That's only an overview. Once you have made some checks as explained you will then be in a better position to address details and you can get more detailed help at that time from others on the group that are more familiar with the Debian file layout and computing architecture. Hope this will help you get started on your problem. I have been watching the list very carefully and there are many people working together to help those in technical need. Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: octave-forge usage?
Miles Bader wrote: How exactly does one _use_ octave-forge, once it's installed? I run octave, and ... then what? How do I make it define the functions in octave forge so I can use them? [I see there's a pkg command, but none of its subcommands seem to do anything useful -- e.g. pkg list shows nothing, and pkg install is apparently intended for downloaded tar-balls.] Thanks, -Miles Miles There is very little usage documentation for Octave. However, the syntax, commands and other word usage appear to be the same as Matlab. You can find lots of Matlab tutorials and user manuals on the Internet. If you have a problem, please get back to me. Also, if you are interested there is another package (non Debian) that is also compatible with Matlab. All these packages make use of so called m files. Octave and Maxima (available on Debian) can work together just as Maple and Matlab work together. Octave works only with MATRICES and is very powerful for solving simultaneous equations and is the favored choice over Maxima for that purpose. However, Maxima can also work with MATRICES. I am not sure at this time how to use Maxima and Octave in an integrated way. Again, take a look at the Matlab documentation while running Octave and you should be okay except for a few exceptions. Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: octave-forge usage?
Miles Bader wrote: Hi, thanks for the response, but I think I'm asking a slightly different question than you answered. I know how to use octave generally, but I want to use some of the specialized functions which are distributed in the octave-forge package in debian (actually octave2.9-forge I think). When that package is installed, it puts all those functions in various subdirectories of /usr/share/octave/site/api-v22/m/octave2.9-forge/, e.g., the imread function is in /usr/share/octave/site/api-v22/m/octave2.9-forge/image/imread.m. What I don't understand is how one is generally supposed to tell octave to load those files, so one can use the associated functions. I _could_ just load the file manually by doing: source(/usr/share/octave/site/api-v22/m/octave2.9-forge/image/imread.m) but that seems rather clumsy, and it looks like there's supposed to be a more elegant and user-friendly mechanism via the octave pkg function. Unfortunately, I can't get the pkg function to actually do anything useful; I don't know if it's my misunderstanding or whether there's something broken. Thanks, -Miles Octave and Matlab both deal with your issue the same way -- at least that is how I understand it. When Octave fires up or when Matlab fires up an automatic search occurs to find the m files. As I understand it, your PATH and maybe some other environmental variables need to be set so the search captures the m files that you want Octave to find when it fires up. All of this is in Matlab documentation and tutorials. You indicated there were certain m files such as imread.m that you were interested in using. Most probably your PATH has not been set to find these m files. The m file is just an executable (by Octave or Matlab) file and is a way of creating customized commands that are not built into Octave or Matlab. Also, you can build your own m files. You can run commands interactively in both Octave and Matlab and prove out your command structure before embedding this script into your own m file. You can modify existing m files. The name of the m file is the name of the command you created. It's something like creating an executable bash file. Bash needs to know where the file is resident. So does Octave and Matlab. I don't know if an m file has to be specifically set up as an executeable. In conclusion, I think your PATH has not been properly set in order for Octave to find the m files you want. You really should spend some time on the Matlab documentation covering this issue of accessibility of m files in case I have missed something. It' s also worth while if you play around a bit and create one of your own m files -- perhaps starting with an existing one where you make some very simple alteration and give the file a unique name and by that means explore the dependencies on the PATH and perhaps other variables you can read about in the documentation. As far as the packaging is concerned I don't think the package is going to resolve the kind of problem you are encountering. As I previously noted there is virtually no documentation on Octave and so you probably won't find any kind of instructions regarding this problem you are having, nor will you find some script in the package which alters your PATH and sets specific variables.. I emphasize that the Matlab documentation deals directly with your current issue. It must have been a lot of talented hard work just to get Octave operating so that it could do most of what Matlab does.and uses the same syntax and language elements. Hope all this helps. Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
Chris Lale wrote: David E. Fox wrote: [...] Normally, one should just reply-to list, and it's considered bad form to mail the poster directly, unless asked to do so. In Thunderbird (Icedove), either click on Reply All, change debian-user@lists.debian.org from Cc: to To: and delete any other Cc: or To: lines; Took this advice. I will see how it turns out until I get that extension you mentioned. Also, I'm getting some static about my email wrapping. I've got Thunderbird (ToolsOptionsWrapping) set to to 72 which is the default standard. But I'm willing to change it to something else. What would that be? Also, I am here using an embedded comment to your embedded comment as most list members seem to want to do it that way. I have been using threads for a while but when I first came to the list the threads were turned off. Some responders to my email seem to think I am advocating Top loading which I am not. I simply remarked that many in business insist on Top loading. I am doing some negotiations with a very large company and they put their reply at the very top of the original message. Also, when I worked for a large Telco they did the same thing. It was only after getting involved with Linux email issues that I even realized there were other and better ways of transmitting email messages. Thanks, hope your recommendations work out. Here goes! or install the Reply To List extension [1] and use Ctrl-I to initiate a reply. [...] [1] http://open.nit.ca/wiki/?ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension Hope that's useful. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The List Standard
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi wrote: First: as I understand your guideline I am not to use the reply key but simply address my reply back to the list and it will be automatically added to the descending list. Most email clients have 3 options : Reply, Reply to All, Reply to List. You should use Reply to List when replying to list. A list of email clients which support Reply to List feature can be found at http://wiki.debian.org/ReplyToListEmailClients But have you not in your own email broken the chain of information because all I get when I read your email is to see your one extraction and I don't know from that who said what or even the initial subject content. I do not know what you mean by extraction, but usually the previous emails, discussions are a click away in your email client. The thread structure lets you see which email is reply to which email etc.,. It is customary to snip away irrelevant parts of the previous message and keep the parts that you are replying to. Not every one has threads. If you want to read this mailing list, any attempt to resist threads is futile. Try to get a mail client with threads. In a thread before yours this statement was made: ' AFAIK Thunderbird can thread even if the subject is changed. (It uses the 'In-Reply-To:' header) This person seems to imply that normally the subject is the key to establishing the descending threads. And if Thunderbird for example utilizes the REPLY TO header then that is at odds with what you seem to be saying in this guideline. So I am confused on this matter. Most email clients can thread without any problem even if the subject is changed. Some email clients cannot preserve threads if the subject is changed. I was being considerate about the second category. Second: Also, when one person removes content they think is irrelevant but the original author might think otherwise then how does one find that original information? Usually all that information (previous emails, previous threads etc.,) is one click away in a good email client. Note that I have 3 objections I want to discuss in more detail if that is okay with you. I am quite happy that you raised the issues. It helps me improve that document in the future. raju I think I now understand where you are coming from and am in agreement with you on these issues. I have tried to frame this response inside your frame, I'll see how it works out. Thanks Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] The List Standard
My browser for mail is Thunderbird and Seamonkey I use for browsing. Thunderbird runs with threads beginning with the first issue ins the subject line and then all successive emails related are tied together in a descending fashion. I take this to mean that one can first see the first issue and follow downwards at other inputs as long as the subject remains the same. However, most businesses do just the opposite either leaving off the original or piling their reply in an ascending fashion. This creates a problem for me because my mail client wants me to put the next message at the bottom and positions the cursor to this will happen. Also, there are no upward threading that I know of. But a lot of people expect a reply at the top. What I have begun to do is tell them to go to the bottom to get at my reply so they can first see what they have previously said which they often forget or get it wrong. However, I also notice that many people in the list snip out stuff so that when the next person responds it is possible they do not have the same context and the same information and so go off in a different direction. Have I got it all wrong or are there conventions we should all be observing. I usually respond to a part of the original not by embedding remarks into the original email (as some do) but by copying the part down to the bottom quoted and followed by my email suggestion that way the original and all following emails that preceded mine are preserved. I have observed conflicts over this issue and I am beginning to wonder what the list standard is on this matter -- or should be. Thanks, Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] The List Standard
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/du-guidelines.html This helps a lot but I have a few issues with a couple of the statements. First: as I understand your guideline I am not to use the reply key but simply address my reply back to the list and it will be automatically added to the descending list. But have you not in your own email broken the chain of information because all I get when I read your email is to see your one extraction and I don't know from that who said what or even the initial subject content. Not every one has threads. In a thread before yours this statement was made: ' AFAIK Thunderbird can thread even if the subject is changed. (It uses the 'In-Reply-To:' header) This person seems to imply that normally the subject is the key to establishing the descending threads. And if Thunderbird for example utilizes the REPLY TO header then that is at odds with what you seem to be saying in this guideline. So I am confused on this matter. Also my original subject had [debian-user] as the prefix yet Thunderbird accepted Re: The list Standard. Second: Also, when one person removes content they think is irrelevant but the original author might think otherwise then how does one find that original information? Third: Altering the original content or injecting statements adds more confusion than it saves especially if a lot of people are in disagreement with one another. Anyway, I have in this email not used the REPLY TO key and addressed my response to you using the original subject in order to see what actually happens. Note that I have 3 objections I want to discuss in more detail if that is okay with you. Thanks -- Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] Reusing LIVE ISO images of CDs and DVDs
Question: I know there is a documented debian process for editing existing CDs and DVDs but I don't know the details??? The literature just says to edit the ISO image placed on the hard drive. I also have some other concerns. Details: I have a number of live CDs and DVDs. Apparently, one can copy the CD to hard drive and either execute it there or modify it. This seems to be a common process. Some of these are not debian based and some are debian based like Ubuntoo or a release of Sarge. I want to be able to play around with both the debian and non-debian ones by editing their contents and/or making the live CDs into live DVDs. Also, the editing process to make these changes has me confused both from the standpoint of inserting new content and deleting or changing old content. Once the editing is done I think I have to remake the ISO image using makeiso command but the boot and file system will remain intact. The file system varies on this collection of live CDs and DVDs. I don't know the internals of makeiso so I wonder if the debian command would work on all ISO distributions. Actually I would be wanting to put the ISO image onto new blank CDs or DVDs because there are no R/W CDs or DVDs involved. Also, I would like to repeat this process over and over as I felt the need to do so. I would keep the older ones as a reference archive. So that's the whole issue. Thanks, Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] VNC
Two recent posts on this list involving VNC (vncserver) caused me to wonder if this package is in any way related to Ultravnc also with a vncserver (Open and free and just for Windows machines). Just want to be sure I am not missing something or maybe they are somehow compatible or have the same functionality. Thanks - Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[debian-user] Virus, Trojan, and Worm
Has antivirus software advanced to the point that the following excerpt from Debian Administration (dated late 2004) is now invalid? I added the square brackets and their content. Viruses are a fact of life nowadays, be they real viruses or worms which require manual intervention on the [be]half of a user to [prevent] propogate[propogation]. Unix systems tend to be immune from the viruses themselves, but they still have mail queues full of viral messages. --- Some Remarks --- On Linux I never worried about such things but on Windows every day was a problem, especially with worms. The antivirus software would identify the worm and it's location and the antivirus developers said that worm extraction was manual and not automated. I found this true until recently when the newer versions on Windows now seem to automatically extract the worm. So I was wondering (because of this article) if it is now out dated and if the Linux antivirus packages now automatically deal with the worms. I could never understand why removal of a worm was a problem for an antivirus package. According to the developers all ll I had to do was compress the worm infested file and then delete the file. If I remember right I had my own approach which was to move the infested file into a temp mail directory and then delete the directory . Thanks, Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Debian-User] Xen Debian Package Management
Michelle The subject matter is mine but the content is some else's. I did not write what you quoted. Probably, the original email trail was missing. I know that Xen development is far further along than Xen 2. I have a copy of the original email if you want to see it -- just ask. The original email from me was addressing what current Xen 3 versions (packages) on Debian matched up to what architectures on Debian. A response was received which indicated that there were incompatibilities and that the problem of incompatibilities was known and was being worked on. One solution using AMD64 was offered to me. At that point I considered the email issue concluded until you came along.. I cannot accout for what others say or do.. But I see you went to a lot of trouble to be informative. All of which shows you like to be helpful. You also have a nice day. Ted Hilts Michelle Konzack wrote: Since you do not use a realname in your message I have found it in the SPAM-Folder. I do not understand why you are talkong abour Xen 2 if I have Etch- DVD's from November last year which have already Xen 3: ---[ command 'apt-cache search xen |grep -v roxen' ] libc6-xen - GNU C Library: Shared libraries [Xen version] linux-headers-2.6-xen-686 - Header files for Linux kernel 2.6 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-headers-2.6-xen-k7 - Header files for Linux kernel 2.6 on AMD K7 machines linux-headers-2.6-xen-vserver-686 - Header files for Linux kernel 2.6 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-headers-2.6.16-2-xen - Common header files for Linux kernel 2.6.16 linux-headers-2.6.16-2-xen-686 - Header files for Linux kernel 2.6.16 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-headers-2.6.16-2-xen-k7 - Header files for Linux kernel 2.6.16 on AMD K7 machines linux-headers-2.6.16-2-xen-vserver - Common header files for Linux kernel 2.6.16 linux-headers-2.6.16-2-xen-vserver-686 - Header files for Linux kernel 2.6.16 on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-image-2.6-xen-686 - Linux kernel 2.6 image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-image-2.6-xen-k7 - Linux kernel 2.6 image on AMD K7 machines linux-image-2.6-xen-vserver-686 - Linux kernel 2.6 image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-image-2.6.16-2-xen-686 - Linux kernel 2.6.16 image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-image-2.6.16-2-xen-k7 - Linux kernel 2.6.16 image on AMD K7 machines linux-image-2.6.16-2-xen-vserver-686 - Linux kernel 2.6.16 image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-image-xen-686 - Linux kernel image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-image-xen-k7 - Linux kernel image on AMD K7 machines linux-image-xen-vserver-686 - Linux kernel image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-modules-2.6.16-2-xen-686 - Linux kernel modules 2.6.16 image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines linux-modules-2.6.16-2-xen-k7 - Linux kernel modules 2.6.16 image on AMD K7 machines linux-modules-2.6.16-2-xen-vserver-686 - Linux kernel modules 2.6.16 image on PPro/Celeron/PII/PIII/P4 machines xen-docs-3.0 - documentation for XEN, a Virtual Machine Monitor xen-hypervisor-3.0-i386 - The Xen Hypervisor for i386 xen-hypervisor-3.0-i386-pae - The Xen Hypervisor for i386 (pae enabled version) xen-ioemu-3.0 - XEN administrative tools xen-tools - Tools to manage debian XEN virtual servers xen-utils-3.0 - XEN administrative tools [ command 'apt-cache show libc6-xen xen-docs-3.0 xen-hypervisor-3.0- i386 xen-ioemu-3.0 xen-tools xen-utils-3.0 |grep -v roxen |grep Version: ' ]- Version: 2.3.6-15 Version: 3.0.2+hg9697-1 Version: 3.0.2+hg9697-1 Version: 3.0.2+hg9697-1 Version: 2.3-1 Version: 3.0.2+hg9697-1 The only problem is, that my MAIN server and my Devel-Station went working fine with the k7 images but now all is gone since the last update (no K7 any more and k6 loads but then it is stoping with nothing or a Kernel-Oops). The GRUB does definitivly not work on my Mainboards and the alternative bootloaders have some other flaws (some of them can rescue boot but passing parameters wrong to the kernel) Then, I have tried to compile K7 Xen-Kernels but the xen/ subdirectory from the kernel is missing and apt-cache search show nothing. In summary: Debian and Xen is frustrating! Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Debian-User] Nice Job Andrew
Michelle Sorry. I have that problem fixed now but have sent very little email since the change. The problem occurred because I was fiddling with Netscape Mail trying to create accounts which bridged other email accounts on other machines in my LAN and Netscape would not let me use the same server or user name and some other stuff on different accounts on the same machine. In the confusion I used the word ADMIN thinking I would fix that later but got side tracked on other issues. Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2007-02-19 23:57:36, schrieb Kevin Mark: ps. could you use something other than 'Admin' in the From line, I'd prefer 'Ted' or even a nickname. But that's just me. I associate people by their From line and Admin is not something I'd associate with a person. Since I get tonns of Admin spam per day, each of his messages can I found in my Spam-folders. And writing with an annonym E-Mail on public discusion lists is annoying. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
