Re: Newsreader: Best of the bunch?
Steve Lamb wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: programming. (One important aspect of that kind of integration is that you don't have to remember different shortcut keys, such as C-a for jumping to the top of the line, C-g for interrupting, and C-s for searching.) Which is why every other piece of software pretty much does it the other way around. IE, they call your text editor of choice. Far more elegant to rogram a mail client and call the text editor than to program the mail client in the text editor. More elegant it may be. But, I don't know whether it's better. In the mailreader on emacs, you jump between the message window and the summary window (listing the subjects and sender of the message) using the usual emacs shortcut key for jumping between windows. You search the subjects using the usual emacs shortcut key, copy part of the subject, open a text file in another window, paste the copied text into the file; you open a source code of your program, copy part of it, open a new mail message, paste the source code into the message, and send it; you can even go to a website (using a web-browser plugin) and copy and paste part of a webpage into your test file---all without touching the mouse and all with the same standard emacs shortcut-key combinations. I sometimes watch other people doing things and I notice what they do is clumsier than what I do, because they use the mouse to search mail for texts, copy them, and paste them to the text editor, for example. That maybe because they don't know shortcut keys or maybe because they don't want to learn shortcut keys because key assignments are different from application to application. Maybe I'm looking at wrong people, but I've never seen other people do these things as quickly as I do. What happens when you want to switch text editors? Whoops, have to switch mail clients too. That's why I CANNOT switch text editors. Fortunately, I don't want to, for the moment. :) Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Newsreader: Best of the bunch?
Steve Lamb wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and paste part of a webpage into your test file---all without touching the mouse and all with the same standard emacs shortcut-key combinations. None of that described is unique to someone who has taken the time to learn the keystrokes or are using other CLI applications. I saw nothing in there that I didn't do regularly with screen, pine/mutt, nn/slrn, lynx/links and joe/vim in my heavy cli days. That's a good news. So, you have to learn only one set of key combinations, for example, to select a region of a text, jump to another window, and paste the text into it, right? Is that a vi-like set of shortcuts? If I can use a common set of shortcuts (for same functionalities) for emailing, text-editing, and webbrowsing (the three most important activities of my daily work) and if I can jump around among these three capabilities using the same keystrokes without touching the mouse, I would equally or better be satisfied. (I have to do part of webbrowsing separately from emacs because emacs doesn't do graphics well.) Shortcut keys should be different from application to application. One presumes that the functions are different so should the keys involved in invoking them. Of course! But, I'm talking about COMMON functions such as selecting regions of text, copying it to the clipboard, pasting it, jumping to another window, saving the current file, searching through the text, jumping to the end of the current line, closing the current window, etc. You want to use the same keystrokes when you search a text, jump to the top of the line, and copy the line in the mail summary window as when you search, jump, and copy a part of your source code in a text-editing window. Only an extremely small percentage of functions are generally universal and should have a universal binding. Exactly. And that small percentage is what you use most frequently in your daily life. At least this is true for me. (Do you know how many times I jumped to the top or end of the lines while composing this text?) That's why I CANNOT switch text editors. Fortunately, I don't want to, for the moment. :) Speaking as someone who has switched no less than 6 times in his lifetime and switches several times a day I can only see that as a huge hinderance. Hindrance to what? Perhaps you work very differently than I. I don't have a motivation to switch editors, so I don't know what problem is there in not switching editors. Finally, I'm not advocating emacs. I just want to stick to a single set of keystrokes for common functionalities as much and far as possible. And the less use of the mouse, the better. If I find a better solution, I'd love to switch to it; I'd have to learn a fresh set of key combinations but that'd be worth it if it takes me farther than emacs does now. (Another important requirement is that the keys shouldn't be far from the home position. I hate to use arrow keys, for example. My keyboard even doesn't have ones!) Cheers, Ryo
Re: Newsreader: Best of the bunch?
Steve Lamb wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course! But, I'm talking about COMMON functions such as selecting regions of text, copying it to the clipboard, pasting it, Which is what I alluded to so I have no idea why all this bluster before getting to where I agree with you. *shrug* Sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to. Anyway, we have agreed that it's better to have the same set of keys for common functionalities. jumping to another window, In what context? What happens when you have a window inside of a window whoops. I guess my term jumping to another window may have been be confusing. I meant that you can go to any buffers within emacs. You can hide any buffer or show it as a window. All switching and selection are done with keyboards. And, since everything is a buffer, you can jump from mail summary window (showing subjects and senders of email) to your text file window, for example. [...] Exactly. And that small percentage is what you use most frequently in your daily life. At least this is true for me. Which doesn't imply that one should program everything inside a text editor. I'm not saying one should program everything inside a text editor. I'm not advocating that style. I completely agree with you. What I want is 1) common keystrokes for common functionalities and 2) that most things can be done with keyboard only. Emacs happens to give me both. As I said, if I find a better environment which gives me that, I'll switch to it. The proper way would be to provide that functionality globally by a controlling program or, failing that, community standards. Yes, that will do, too. I don't know if that's the proper way, though. [...] Perhaps you work very differently than I. I don't have a motivation to switch editors, so I don't know what problem is there in not switching editors. Flexibility comes to mind. Not only in one's work environment but one's self. [...] Somehow not being able to use the exact same keystrokes for some functions certainly hasn't killed my ability to do work. In fact when confronted with a lack of options I can make do with what is available. I see. That's the difference between you and me. You are much more flexible. When I use another editor, I constantly hit wrong keys, which is SO irritating that I can't use it. I have no choice. And, I'm feel so comfortable on emacs. If I switch, I need to switch once and for all. (Another important requirement is that the keys shouldn't be far from the home position. I hate to use arrow keys, for example. My keyboard even doesn't have ones!) Which is plain foolishness. Again the whole zen of the editor wars thing. People quibble about the microscopic amount of time it takes them to move their hands here and there yet want common keys. It's not a matter of time. Perhaps, you are so flexible that you don't see it. Well, how should I explain it? . . . Well, I feel more comfortable when my hands remain around the home position and uncomfortable when I need to move them away so often. I'm sure that that won't make any difference in terms of time. I'm not talking about the zen; I'm not talking about the kind of religious war you allude to. . . . Do you drive a car? What if the turn signal switch were located at the center console as a button and each time you use it you needed to reach it removing your hand away from the steering wheel? You'll eventually get used to it for sure. The time you need to operate it wouldn't be any different. Nevertheless, don't you think it more comfortable if the switch is located around the steering wheel as it actually is for most modern cars? Also, what if each model has the switch located at slightly different places? For example, I'm not able to operate the car radio without looking, when driving a different car from mine. Similarly, arrow keys are located differently from keyboard to keyboard (look at laptop keyboards); variations in alphanumeric keys are much less. This bothers me because I'm not flexible. (So, the control key is a BIG problem. Fortunately, I manage to map it to the left of the A key for every model.) It's comfortableness that I'm after. I don't think emacs is ideal, but it's better than anything I've experienced so far. You may call me inflexible. That's right. I'm easily irritated when things work differently. But, please don't call me a fool. Cheers, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Newsreader: Best of the bunch?
Hi all, marc wrote: [...] I have tried with Emacs before, but it's like learning Japanese, where every word and piece of grammar is different [...] Aha! I think I've found the reason why I was able to learn to use emacs so quickly. :) (Sorry I couldn't resist. I'm a native speaker of Japanese.) And yes, I had been using gnus on emacs for a long time before losing local news service and switching to Google Groups. I liked gnus a lot because it's seamlessly integrated into emacs, which I use daily for emailing, word processing (with LaTeX), and programming. (One important aspect of that kind of integration is that you don't have to remember different shortcut keys, such as C-a for jumping to the top of the line, C-g for interrupting, and C-s for searching.) Regards, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
virtual package? aptitude says not a real package.
Hello all, aptitude sometimes says some package is not a real package. For instance: $ aptitude show emacs-dl-wnn Package: emacs-dl-wnn State: not a real package When I try to install such a package using aptitude install, nothing is installed. Could someone tell me what this is? I remember that when I was using woody, I sometimes installed a virtual package, whose sole purpose was to automatically install the other packages on which it nominally depends. At first I thought this not a real package business was just that. But, I'm puzzled because such a package installs nothing. . . . Oh, and I'm now using etch (testing). Regards, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
testing stable: vanished packages?
Hi all, I'm wondering why some packages aren't available for the testing distribution. For example, I wanted to install apcalc (in the math section) but learned that it's available only for the unstable and stable distributions, not for the testing. (I searched at http://www.debian.org .) When sarge became the stable distribution, I read that initially the stable and testing distributions are the same but that packages in the testing keep upgraded, if I remember correctly. If that's so, some packages in the testing will get frequently upgraded and others will get upgraded less frequent or not at all, but there's no reason why a package must be removed, is there? (unless there's a security problem or some such serious problem.) I downloaded .deb files in the stable distribution of apcalc and installed them using dpkg -i. I'm not very unhappy with that. But, I remain puzzled. Cheers, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: testing stable: vanished packages?
Antony Gelberg wrote: [...] apcalc isn't in testing as it has an RC bug (read: serious problem). http://bjorn.haxx.se/debian/testing.pl?package=apcalc Thanks for the info! This webpage (entitled Why is package X not in testing yet?) seems very useful. But, why then isn't the older package (which is part of the stable distribution) kept for the testing distribution? As I said, it _appears_ to be working on my etch box. Is it known to be seriously broken on the etch platform? Or, does this phrase in the webpage above apcalc has no old version in testing (trying to add, not update) mean that the package maintainer intends to re-introduce the older package while the bug in the newer is being fixed? It seems that I don't quite understand the process in which packages are updated. Regards, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: virtual package? aptitude says not a real package.
Kumar Appaiah wrote: On my system, apt-cache show emacs-dl-wn gives me black, install says that package is unavailable. Thanks for your response! I'm still puzzled. What's this ghost package, then? The mplayer package seems to be another example. If they are unavailable, then why do they show up when you type $ aptitude search mplayer for example. What does this mean? I think virtual packages are those which are actually generic software which have many options fitting the bill. For example, exim4, postfix, esmtp-run, sendmail etc. all `provide' the `mail-transport-agent' virtual package. See: http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html#s-virtual Thanks. That matches my understanding of virtual packages. Regards, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: virtual package? aptitude says not a real package.
Michael Spang wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] If they are unavailable, then why do they show up when you type $ aptitude search mplayer for example. What does this mean? [...] It means that there is no such package but that something depends or conflicts with the package. These packages are just referenced by others even though they arent in the archive. This happens for a variety of reasons. [...] [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ apt-cache showpkg mplayer Package: mplayer Versions: Reverse Depends: xmms-xmmplayer,mplayer mozilla-mplayer,mplayer 1.0-pre5 Dependencies: Provides: Reverse Provides: Aha! That's clear. Thanks for the explanation. Regards, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which Java for browser plugins?
Andy Streich wrote: On Tuesday 30 August 2005 02:18 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I used java-package along with Sun's Java 5. Instructions here: http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/142 Great article! That works for me. Thanks for your help. Returning to my original question of free Debian Java packages, I think this quote from the article above summarizes the situation: Whilst there [are] a growing number of open Java environments at times installing Sun Java environment is the pragmatic approach. . . . Regards, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which Java for browser plugins?
Bob Proulx wrote: kamaraju kusumanchi wrote: Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Download your favorite JRE or JDK and then use java-package to build yourself the Debian package from it. I think the OP wants to know if Debian offers any JRE or JDK instead of building the Debian packages himself. Yes, that's what I meant. That may be true but Debian cannot legally distribute Sun Java packages due to the Sun license. So the only option available for users is to build it themselves. I wasn't asking whether there's an official Debian package for the Sun Java. I knew that's impossible exactly for the reason you explain. What I was asking was whether there are _free_ Java components usable as a browser plugin and if there are, which Debian package contains them. Well, I didn't explicitly say that, but I mentioned the standard Debian way, which usually means that you use official _free_ Debian packages if possible. Thanks for your response, anyway. Regards, Ryo
Which Java for browser plugins?
Hello Debian users, I'm wondering which Debian package(s) I should install for Java plugins for opera and mozilla. Most of the documents I found on the net talk about downloading J2RE from a Sun site. Does this mean there aren't standard Debian packages which can replace Sun's Java? Not that I don't want to use Sun's Java, but that I prefer the standard Debian way of package management if possible. Thank you, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gnome: how to globally set environment variables?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] I'm totally at a loss. Could someone tell me how one should set environment variables at the startup of Gnome? A person responded via email to this query of mine. A solution is to write shell commands in ~/.gnomerc. For example, your .gnomerc might look like . $HOME/.bash_profile or you can directly write export commands in there. I'm glad to find this clean solution. Regards, Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Programming language for financial modeling
Steve Lamb wrote: Bob Proulx wrote: Python has that whole whitespace for control thing. Love it or hate it I think all would agree that if it were not for that one feature that Python would be the dominant language today if not for that one design decision. Quite the cobrary. [...] The simple fact which most people just don't get is that if they are indenting their braced code properly they could program in Python without braces and have no problems. I agree. I'm a great fan of Ruby and disliker (not a hater) of Python. Nevertheless, I don't like Ruby's end keyword; I wish Ruby were aware of indentation. I found Haskell's indentation sensitivity quite natural and extremely useful. I prefer Ruby to Phython because Ruby is or looks cleaner in the OO department. Ryo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gnome: how to globally set environment variables?
Hello all, I'm totally at a loss. Could someone tell me how one should set environment variables at the startup of Gnome? I'm not talking about ~/.bashrc or its friends. Since env. vars. are inherited from parents by children, you should need to set them only at the ultimate ancestor. Before moving to Gnome, I used xdm (a login manager), which sources ~/.xsession, so that you set env. vars. in there and you invoke whatever program you like from there. The latter functionality can be replaced with Gnome's session manager (I may not be remembering the name correctly) where you can specify programs to be invoked at the startup. But, what about the env. vars.? I feel like being dumb.:-( In the traditional Unix/Linux world, such information used to be invaribly found in manpages. man gnome, however, tells you nothing. Where can I find information on the startup sequence of the gnome system? I guess gdm invokes something and that something acts as the ultimate ancestor. Why is it so hard to find such a documentation? Regards, Ryo - PS. I've just realized something interesting. Programs directly invoked from the Gnome menu or desktop seem to have init (pid 1) as their parent. That means the Gnome ultimate ancestor orphans every child. . . . Why does it do that? I'm just interested. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
