Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[tomas]

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 10:59:28PM +0200, Thomas Amm wrote:
> On Mon, 2021-09-06 at 16:46 -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> 
> > If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> >  [...]
> > Regards
> > 
> 
> Conrats! You have just made it into everybody's kill file.

A somewhat friendlier answer would go a longer way. Shouting contests
are unnecessary and futile. Moreover, they degrade the mailing list's
quality for everyone.

Maybe the OP really didn't know what they were doing. In any case,
their MUA was doing the correct thing: sending a text part along
with the HTML part as MIME alternative (although we discovered a
bug in the process as well).

You may put whomever you like into your kill file, but wehether
anyone is going to do it is their private business.

Cheers
 - t


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Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Thomas Amm]

On Mon, 2021-09-06 at 16:46 -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:

> If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
>  [...]
> Regards
> 

Conrats! You have just made it into everybody's kill file.

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[David Wright]

On Tue 07 Sep 2021 at 00:20:26 (-0300), Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> Em 06/09/2021 23:48, Kenneth Parker escreveu:
> > On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:58 PM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 04:46:21PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> > > > If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> > > > background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> > > > background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> > > > list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> > > > deal with it.

Perhaps the forums might suit you better than technical mailing lists.

> > > Many people will "deal with it" by deleting your messages and moving
> > > on.  Just so you know.
> > 
> > > For me, your messages seem OK.  Mutt is presenting me with readable
> > > text.  I don't know what other people are seeing.  However, if you're
> > > intentionally flaunting the guidelines and standards that make mailing
> > > lists work, you can expect a smaller audience for your requests.
> > 
> > Greg, what I saw is Rich Text Format [1], different from html.  I
> > suspect Mutt (as well as gmail) presents it as it, without issue.  But,
> > unfortunately, not all email reader software would see it properly.   

As one might expect, mutt can handle multipart/alternative in various
ways, according to how you configure it. AFAICT the emails in question
are sensibly constructed, with text/plain and text/html equivalents.

> My issue happened (this is my conclusion) because my Debian 9 was not
> updated when I followed the steps to change sources.list to those of
> Debian 10. This is something that should be added in Debian
> documentation, in my opinion.

It's already there, as I pointed out and gave the reference for.
In bullseye, it was given even greater prominence by being given
an individual section number.

> It is also important to note that third
> party sources should be disabled, to avoid possible conflicts or
> problems that should be addressed only after the OS upgrade ends
> successfully.

Ditto.

> I also made something much wrong by not rebooting the computer after
> each 'apt upgrade' for the next version. So, i ended up with a computer
> with packages and sources.list of Debian 11, but it was not quite
> that.

That is implicit, in that each upgrade is expected to be followed by a
period during which that version is used. Rebooting ensures that any
new kernel is being used.

It's also explicit, in that a system running the previous version's
kernel is not a "pure" system, and unprepared for the next upgrade.

> So, i remade all steps. And my first steps were to restore my Debian 9
> sources.list, 'apt update' and 'apt upgrade' it.

I don't see how that works. Once you've upgraded by one version,
downgrading it again is a non-trivial operation. But I found it
difficult to follow precisely the steps you took.

> A more detailed story is in the thread i pointed in my first message here:
> 
> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/upgrading-debian-distribution-4175700202/#post6281677

I have already looked at that. There seem to be links to other forums,
debian.org, release notes for a different upgrade, etc. So my post,
later in the day, didn't add anything except emphasis: follow the
Release Notes in full. (It seemed that the mailing list was late in
being invited to the party.)

The problem with following random posts on the internet for upgrading
is that each one generally addresses a particular aspect where that OP
expressed some difficulty, but doesn't give the end-to-end method.

Cheers,
David.

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Dedeco Balaco]

Em 07/09/2021 03:28, Andrew M.A. Cater escreveu:
> It has been repeated a few times in different
> places that you can't jump a release straightforwardly, so it has to 
> be 9 -> 10 -> 11.
> 

Yes. People in the forum also told me this. But the problem was
something else.

> Having remade all the steps - do you now have a working system now?

Yes, everything seems finee.

Again, thank you all.

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Sep 07, 2021 at 12:20:26AM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> My issue happened (this is my conclusion) because my Debian 9 was not
> updated when I followed the steps to change sources.list to those of
> Debian 10. This is something that should be added in Debian
> documentation, in my opinion.

https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#system-status

  4.2. Checking APT configuration status

  [...]

  This procedure also assumes your system has been updated to the latest
  point release of stretch. If you have not done this or are unsure,
  follow the instructions in Section A.1, “Upgrading your stretch
  system”.

Admittedly, it's a bit hard to find if you're only skimming, but you
should be reading the full release notes before upgrading.

> I also made something much wrong by not rebooting the computer after
> each 'apt upgrade' for the next version.

Well, after the full-upgrade, but this is a good point.  Some of the
services (dbus) require a reboot to restart them.  And of course, you'll
still be on the oldold...stable kernel until you reboot.

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Sep 07, 2021 at 12:20:26AM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> 
> 
> Em 06/09/2021 23:48, Kenneth Parker escreveu:
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:58 PM Greg Wooledge  > > wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 04:46:21PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> > > If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> > > background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> > > background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian
> > User
> > > list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> > > deal with it.
> > 
> > Many people will "deal with it" by deleting your messages and moving
> > on.  Just so you know.
> > 
> > For me, your messages seem OK.  Mutt is presenting me with readable
> > text.  I don't know what other people are seeing.  However, if you're
> > intentionally flaunting the guidelines and standards that make mailing
> > lists work, you can expect a smaller audience for your requests.
> > 
> > Greg, what I saw is Rich Text Format [1], different from html.  I
> > suspect Mutt (as well as gmail) presents it as it, without issue.  But,
> > unfortunately, not all email reader software would see it properly.   
> > 
> > Kenneth Parker
> > 
> > [1] Rich Text Format.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format
> 
> My issue happened (this is my conclusion) because my Debian 9 was not
> updated when I followed the steps to change sources.list to those of
> Debian 10. This is something that should be added in Debian
> documentation, in my opinion. It is also important to note that third
> party sources should be disabled, to avoid possible conflicts or
> problems that should be addressed only after the OS upgrade ends
> successfully.
> 
> I also made something much wrong by not rebooting the computer after
> each 'apt upgrade' for the next version. So, i ended up with a computer
> with packages and sources.list of Debian 11, but it was not quite that.
> So, i remade all steps. And my first steps were to restore my Debian 9
> sources.list, 'apt update' and 'apt upgrade' it.
> 
> A more detailed story is in the thread i pointed in my first message here:
> 
> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/upgrading-debian-distribution-4175700202/#post6281677
> 
> Thank you all.
> 

Hi Dedaco,

I _think_ that the issue of how to upgrade has been covered. 
The release notes cover new features / removed software: the installation
notes cover features of the installation.

https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ has
https://www.debian.org/releases/bullseye/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgrade-to-debian-oldrelease
 
and section 4.2 covers this in detail. The instqallation guide is probably 
not so relevant once you have a running Debian system.

Since the release on June 14th or so, this has been extensively covered
in threads here on this list as people have hit problems but I agree, we
could always do more. It has been repeated a few times in different
places that you can't jump a release straightforwardly, so it has to 
be 9 -> 10 -> 11.

Having remade all the steps - do you now have a working system now?
[I'm busy fighting with a system that hasn't been upgraded in a while
and has flaky hardware at the moment: it's often hard to see where
problems are coming from when you are in the middle of them.]

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Kenneth Parker]

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:58 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 04:46:21PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> > If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> > background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> > background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> > list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> > deal with it.
>
> Many people will "deal with it" by deleting your messages and moving
> on.  Just so you know.
>
> For me, your messages seem OK.  Mutt is presenting me with readable
> text.  I don't know what other people are seeing.  However, if you're
> intentionally flaunting the guidelines and standards that make mailing
> lists work, you can expect a smaller audience for your requests.
>
Greg, what I saw is Rich Text Format [1], different from html.  I suspect
Mutt (as well as gmail) presents it as it, without issue.  But,
unfortunately, not all email reader software would see it properly.

Kenneth Parker

[1] Rich Text Format.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Sep 06, 2021 at 04:46:21PM -0300, Dedeco Balaco wrote:
> If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> deal with it.

Many people will "deal with it" by deleting your messages and moving
on.  Just so you know.

For me, your messages seem OK.  Mutt is presenting me with readable
text.  I don't know what other people are seeing.  However, if you're
intentionally flaunting the guidelines and standards that make mailing
lists work, you can expect a smaller audience for your requests.

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[piorunz]

On 06/09/2021 21:50, Dan Ritter wrote:


Here is reality:

Nobody here is obligated to help you. At all.
If we do, it's out of the goodness of our hearts.
If we don't, it could be:

because we don't know the answer
or
because you are being rude

This is a place where people send questions in plain text and
respond in plain text.

Your response is up to you.

Our responses are up to us.


I agree, we said enough. Good luck to Dedeco Balaco, and goodbye from
us, kind people.

--
With kindest regards, piorunz.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: (pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Dan Ritter]

Dedeco Balaco wrote: 
> 
> Em 06/09/2021 14:25, John Hasler escreveu:
> > Curt writes:
> >> I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird 
> >> to compose your email as plain text
> > 
> > Or even as "normal" HTML.
> > 
> 
> If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
> background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
> background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
> list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
> deal with it. Things evolve. Being able to use bold, italic, underscore

Here is reality:

Nobody here is obligated to help you. At all.
If we do, it's out of the goodness of our hearts.
If we don't, it could be:

because we don't know the answer
or
because you are being rude

This is a place where people send questions in plain text and
respond in plain text.

Your response is up to you.

Our responses are up to us.

-dsr-

(pure text) Re: Trouble upgrading Debian (reply to David Wright)

[Dedeco Balaco]

Em 06/09/2021 14:25, John Hasler escreveu:
> Curt writes:
>> I suggest you follow the earlier advice, and set Thunderbird 
>> to compose your email as plain text
> 
> Or even as "normal" HTML.
> 

If it is trivial to me setting my mail manager to use the dark
background i need, and to make it ignore the (usually default)
background of color of all HTML messages, why the people in Debian User
list cannot do it? I will not change my setting! I need it. Learn to
deal with it. Things evolve. Being able to use bold, italic, underscore
is a minimum of "new" things that help a lot to compose good messages.
If Thunderbird has a problem when writing the automatic text messages,
together with the composed HTML ones, this is a reason to *fix* it, not
to never use anymore. I have installed another mail manager in my
computer: but it is bad, pretty horrible. It does not show HTML
messages. It does not compose HTML messages. And it is pretty counter
intuitive to configure, in several parts. It seems handy, have nice
things. But if you do not know them, or are not familiar enough with
"something", to be able to understand it, you cannot use them. Its name
is Claws Mail. I bet the most important people in this list love it. So,
Thunderbird has some problems (and the HTML thing is not a problem to
me), but it still the best mail manager for me.

Regards